Kanstul

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2019-02-08 9:48 p.m.

Not sure where this belongs but did anyone else hear some murmurs about Kanstul closing up shop?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-02-08 9:58 p.m.

Yuuuup.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-02-09 12:54 a.m.

Hope not. :idk:

But the business is tough and relatively unforgiving. :weep:

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-02-09 2:15 a.m.

I haven't heard that! Seriously? Why on earth would they close up shop? Didn't they just release a new line of trumpets and make a showing at NAMM?

If they are closing down it must be because of a snap family decision and not a business one.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-02-09 4:39 a.m.

I know nothing about it, but sometimes the family isn't as interested when the founder is gone. That also happened to Lawson French horns when Walter Lawson died.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-02-09 6:18 a.m.

To bad if it is true ;-( I'm happy with the Kanstuls. The best modern horns I own are the 1555, 1606, 760, 1570 and the 1662. In hundred years they might be praised and missed just as the Williams horns are today.

/Tom

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2019-02-09 9:36 a.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]To bad if it is true ;-( I'm happy with the Kanstuls. The best modern horns I own are the 1555, 1606, 760, 1570 and the 1662. In hundred years they might be praised and missed just as the Williams horns are today.

/Tom[/quote]

I'm literally selling my 1606 to help pay for my wedding and now I'm not sure it's such a good idea... Had wanted to try out some of their large bores at some point too.

I have to say I've been puzzled by their marketing strategy; I've even discussed it with Jack directly. Most people in my part of the country have never even heard of them, much less know what a broad range they offer. Why were they not putting sections of player together to play their stuff in high def videos etc? Why is there a video floating around of Jack farting around on a contra instead of getting a real tuba player to do something with it? Then, when they /did/ get some players on the horns it was just noisy clips at NAMM...

TheSheriff · by **TheSheriff** » 2019-02-09 10:00 a.m.

-------

Man, I hope not. They make some excellent trombones.

=====

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-02-09 10:43 a.m.

This sounds like a rumor at this point. Anyway to substantiate it?

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2019-02-09 11:05 a.m.

[quote="norbie2018"]This sounds like a rumor at this point. Anyway to substantiate it?[/quote]

I got it from a friend in the repair world who knew those affected. I've now seen it from another friend in the repair business but in another state. I came here to try and substantiate it. :idk:

Hey Sheriff, how does the 1606 compare to your 6?

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-09 11:25 a.m.

I'll roll by the factory and take a look and reach out to some locals.

It's possible that they are planning to close the Anaheim plant and relocate to someplace where costs are lower, but that's just a wild guess.

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2019-02-09 11:39 a.m.

[quote="JohnL"]I'll roll by the factory and take a look and reach out to some locals.

It's possible that they are planning to close the Anaheim plant and relocate to someplace where costs are lower, but that's just a wild guess.[/quote]

The word I got was "about 40 employees were told they are being laid off including their warranty/repair department". You'd think warranty would stick around if they intended to retain a customer base etc. after a change of location.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-02-09 1:25 p.m.

[quote="Molefsky"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="77766" time="1549729519" user_id="119">
I'll roll by the factory and take a look and reach out to some locals.

It's possible that they are planning to close the Anaheim plant and relocate to someplace where costs are lower, but that's just a wild guess.[/quote]

The word I got was "about 40 employees were told they are being laid off including their warranty/repair department". You'd think warranty would stick around if they intended to retain a customer base etc. after a change of location.
</QUOTE>

That sounds like something to substantiate it. I never played a Kanstul but always wanted to try one of their large bore tenors. However, M&W and Edwards are about an hour from me, so when I buy another .547 trombone I have the privilege to have these makers so close.

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2019-02-09 1:33 p.m.

Yeah, I liked that they'd recreate vintage horns and update them etc. I really wanted to try a slide tuning 8h or 88h (I forget their model number).

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-02-09 1:53 p.m.

Sounds like you better do so soon. Hornguys would be one source.

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2019-02-09 3:02 p.m.

I just sold my 1670D prototype a few months ago. Selling my 1606 right now. Just not in the market to buy right now. I was thinking next year... :(

TheSheriff · by **TheSheriff** » 2019-02-09 3:50 p.m.

[quote="Molefsky"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="77760" time="1549727027" user_id="2978">
This sounds like a rumor at this point. Anyway to substantiate it?[/quote]

Hey Sheriff, how does the 1606 compare to your 6?
</QUOTE>
=====

My 1606 is the prototype and the best example of a 1606 that I have ever played, and I've played several production models. It blows more open than my Williams 6 but does not have the character of sound that the 6 has. My 6 was made by Bob Williams, Earl's son.

-------

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-10 9:41 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]I haven't heard that! Seriously? Why on earth would they close up shop? Didn't they just release a new line of trumpets and make a showing at NAMM?[/quote]
They weren't actually at NAMM:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/vie ... bd4cea2bfb">https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=149584&sid=8fc3cdcc30e89e8e1cd75cbd4cea2bfb</LINK_TEXT>

I rolled by the shop yesterday. Being a Saturday, they weren't open, but I did not see any outward signs of trouble. The Kanstul signage is still in place and there's no big "For Sale" sign out front. As I said earlier - I'll ask around and see what I can find out.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-02-11 12:52 a.m.

Oh really?? That's interesting they weren't at NAMM... Maybe not a sure sign that they've gone under but that's for sure a red flag to me. Considering they're right down the street and the amount of business they do in the DCI and education worlds that seems odd for them to miss it.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-02-11 1:09 a.m.

Only 1 corps using Kanstul at the moment, and none did for quite some time before that.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-02-11 1:09 a.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]Oh really?? That's interesting they weren't at NAMM... Maybe not a sure sign that they've gone under but that's for sure a red flag to me. Considering they're right down the street and the amount of business they do in the DCI and education worlds that seems odd for them to miss it.[/quote]

Or you may be reading too much in the murky tea leaves.

Perhaps Kanstul's projected return on the substantial investment (cost of exhibiting at NAMM) didn't justify the expense - especially considering the dealers (their target market at NAMM) could find Kanstul in their less hectic and quieter home a 10 minute drive away!

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-02-11 1:43 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Only 1 corps using Kanstul at the moment, and none did for quite some time before that.[/quote]
Well Kanstul fooled me with all the advertising they do!

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-11 2:31 a.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]Oh really?? That's interesting they weren't at NAMM... Maybe not a sure sign that they've gone under but that's for sure a red flag to me. Considering they're right down the street and the amount of business they do in the DCI and education worlds that seems odd for them to miss it.[/quote]NAMM is crazy expensive for exhibitors, and Kanstul isn't that big a company. I could see them deciding to spend the money elsewhere.

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2019-02-11 6:20 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Only 1 corps using Kanstul at the moment, and none did for quite some time before that.[/quote]

Yeah, Jack was pretty down on how asian manufacturers were taking market share in the DCI world despite the supposed disparity in quality of product.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-02-11 6:31 p.m.

To be quite honest, those Asians horns were better. The Kanstul marching line is not great, especially for the price.

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-02-11 6:55 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]To be quite honest, those Asians horns were better. The Kanstul marching line is not great, especially for the price.[/quote]

Sound? Fit and finish?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-02-11 6:58 p.m.

Not especially in tune, ok build quality, about the same playability as the other makes. The Kanstul marching euphonium, for example, is probably about the 3rd or 4th best of the options available.

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2019-02-11 7:14 p.m.

It's just not an area in which I have any interest. I knew some DCI guys that liked the Kanstul contras despite their apparent extra heft but that's second hand knowledge at best.

Is Kanstul really the only extant maker of tubas in the US?

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-12 2:31 a.m.

I talked to a family member of a now-former Kanstul employee. There have been significant layoffs. Obviously, they didn't share their plans with those being laid off, but it looks like they will be closing the Anaheim plant in the near future. There are rumors that someone is buying the name, tooling, and equipment.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-02-12 2:56 a.m.

[quote="JohnL"]I talked to a family member of a now-former Kanstul employee. There have been significant layoffs. Obviously, they didn't share their plans with those being laid off, but it looks like they will be closing the Anaheim plant in the near future. There are rumors that someone is buying the name, tooling, and equipment.[/quote]

This will be a sad ending - especially for many in Southern California who had long-standing relationships with the Kanstul company and the family. :weep:

It will be the conclusion of a long and wonderful tradition of high-quality brass instrument manufacturing in Southern California.

Wonder what will happen to the various outstanding Kanstul special orders?

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-02-12 3:13 a.m.

Wow... I'm shocked. I hope that whoever buys the name, equipment and tooling makes horns that live up to the original brand.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2019-02-12 8:56 a.m.

I'm more curious as to what's going to happen to their custom/repair shop (or rather, the people in it).

Tarkus697 · by **Tarkus697** » 2019-02-12 10:10 a.m.

Damn, this is a shame. I just started my fulltime job and was hoping to put $ aside for a new 760, as I had borrowed a friend's horn for a spell a while back and really loved the way it played.

KRRath · by **KRRath** » 2019-02-12 10:48 a.m.

This was posted on their Facebook page:

"Effective immediately, Kanstul Musical Instruments is putting a hold on new orders for instruments, parts and accessories. We are undergoing a transition that requires an indefinite halt in production.

In the meantime, the Kanstul family and team want to express our deep appreciation to our customers, business partners and friends for the business and incredible support we’ve received over the 38 years since Zig Kanstul founded the company.

We will update on any further developments.

Please direct any questions via email to <EMAIL email="sales@kanstul.com">sales@kanstul.com</EMAIL>."

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-12 11:37 a.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]I'm more curious as to what's going to happen to their custom/repair shop (or rather, the people in it).[/quote]
It's a tough situation. It's not like there's another company around here they can move to.

The person whose relative I spoke with is interviewing out of the area.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2019-02-12 11:45 a.m.

I guess I was thinking along the lines of their forming their own small company for brass repair/custom work. But that would require some degree of capitalization and probably something of a leap of faith.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-12 12:22 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]I guess I was thinking along the lines of their forming their own small company for brass repair/custom work. But that would require some degree of capitalization and probably something of a leap of faith.[/quote]
That'd be a big leap and a lot of faith.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2019-02-12 12:58 p.m.

Yeah. The people around here (even the very highly skilled ones) who have tried that have either ended up working for some company (like Tuba Exchange) in one relationship or other, or working out of their homes. Otherwise, I've seen brass repair/custom shops come and go for the past 30 years. Kanstul is (should be, theoretically?) in a better location with a wider draw, but it seems pretty much impossible to sustain a repair/maintenance/custom approach without some sort of sales stream.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-12 1:26 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]Kanstul is (should be, theoretically?) in a better location with a wider draw, but it seems pretty much impossible to sustain a repair/maintenance/custom approach without some sort of sales stream.[/quote]
The location is both a positive and a negative. Yes, there is more of a market here, but there are also people already established in that market.

Plus, it's California. Everything is more expensive, plus there's a lot of regulatory hoops through which one must jump. I expect Kanstul was grandfathered in for some of those hoops, but a new company would not be.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-12 4:42 p.m.

Sorry for the consecutive posts.

Forty years later, history is repeating itself. Olds ceased production on July 13, 1979. The liquidation auction was held on November 7, 1979.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-15 5:00 p.m.

No comment, just factual information.

Kanstul is selling off some equipment.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.ebay.com/sch/kanstul1332/m. ... pg=&_from=">https://www.ebay.com/sch/kanstul1332/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=</LINK_TEXT>

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-02-15 7:46 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]No comment, just factual information.

Kanstul is selling off some equipment.[/quote]

:weep:

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-15 8:07 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="78312" time="1550268044" user_id="119">
No comment, just factual information.

Kanstul is selling off some equipment.[/quote]

:weep:
</QUOTE>

I'm thinking it might not be all bad. It doesn't look like they're selling off everything. In a doomsday scenario, I'd expect they'd either be selling off everything on eBay or holding onto it for a liquidation auction.

Schlitz · 2019-02-15 11:10 p.m.

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2019-02-16 11:35 a.m.

While this is sad, this is simply a reflection of what the market can bear. It’s not like there’s a shortage of brass instrument manufacturers, and to be honest, the things Kanstul did were done just as well or better by other manufacturers. And even those were having problems, like Shires. How many more different trombones does the world really need? Especially when the demand is not nearly as high as it was in the days before other competition from other styles of music.

They never really seemed to fit any niche all that well. I haven’t heard of any major trombone players using their horns. Even Jupiter has outdone them on that front.

cmcslide · by **cmcslide** » 2019-02-16 12:06 p.m.

From the Winter 2019 newsletter from Horn Guys:

"The next era begins. We believe Kanstul Musical Instruments of Anaheim, CA may be inking a deal with a new benefactor this week. New manufacturing is on hold for the time being, but we have most models in stock."

So, perhaps there is something to be announced soon.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-02-16 12:44 p.m.

Can't say I've ever even seen a Kanstul horn.

TheSheriff · by **TheSheriff** » 2019-02-16 1:33 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Can't say I've ever even seen a Kanstul horn.[/quote]
=====

You're in the eastern US, right? If so, they are not common in the east or the midwest, for that matter.

I'm glad I've got my 1606 prototype.

=====

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-02-16 8:25 p.m.

Alan Kaplan plays his .500 bore 1602b and also the convertable .547 bore 1570b with removable Thayer f--valve. George Roberts did help with the single bass trombone that he played to the end. These are two giants for you that liked the Kanstul horns. In Symphony orchestras over here it is not easy for any maker to win shares. I think in many of our orchestras Bach and Conn are still popular and a few on Yamaha. It has been like this for many decades.

I have met a few professional bass trombone players who play old Holton horns. A couple on Bach and two who play Kanstuls. One is on the single 1670 and one is on the dependant 1662. I have met a few young college jazz players who play the 1555 and the 1606.

In Stockholm there are only two shops who sell brass instruments and one of them has been a Kanstul dealer. I think that's why they are spread here. I had not bought the first Kanstul if I had not play tested in that shop. The rest I ordered on Thomann. I can not see any Kanstul instruments on Thomann anymore so I guess they have interrupted the collaboration.

I had a gig today where I played my 1606. The leader of that band is also a tromboneplayer and also play the 1606. I think the ones who have never seen a Kanstul has missed a great opportunity to choose a different horn. Maybe jazz musicians are more interested to try new concepts. I hope the Kanstul company continue to deliver high quality horns when they open up again. I hope they do open up.

/Tom

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2019-02-17 12:42 a.m.

Scuttlebutt today is that they have a buyer...

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-02-17 6:06 p.m.

I own one Kanstul - the 1662i. I think in the long run, I'll decide that I really love the instrument, but I keep going back and forth about it. Mechanically, it's a great instrument, although you really have to keep after the slide to keep it feeling good. When it gets bad, it goes down hill fast.

Everytime I bring in a different instrument to either big band or quartet or orchestra, people miss the sound of that 1662i. Its just really nice sound on and under the staff. It works above the staff, but the feedback behind the bell isn't maybe the best.

I've played/briefly owned a 760 for a while, and to me it was frighteningly bright. I'm not afraid of some brightness, but this was bright.

I've always wanted a 1608. If someone has one you'd like to unload for a trade, I'd love to get one of those (8h equivalent with TIS).

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2019-02-18 1:39 p.m.

A <B>very</B> inside person told me this morning that they're hammering something out.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-02-19 6:19 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Everytime I bring in a different instrument to either big band or quartet or orchestra, people miss the sound of that 1662i. Its just really nice sound on and under the staff. It works above the staff, but the feedback behind the bell isn't maybe the best.[/quote]
It projects like mad and as a consequence the feedback behind the bell can fool you. I have the same experience with my dependant 1662. The feedback is not bad behind the bell but you can be triicked to think you are not heard when people in the room hear you loud and clear. The only horn that beats this horn is my Holton 169.

I've played/briefly owned a 760 for a while, and to me it was frighteningly bright. I'm not afraid of some brightness, but this was bright.

I don't think it is bright. The dual bore makes it a little to mellow for lead. I think 3rd in a big band could be perfect or as a cheap substitute for a Bach 36

/Tom

baBposaune · by **baBposaune** » 2019-02-21 9:44 a.m.

Warburton is looking at buying the Kanstul factory in Anaheim. If that comes to pass it would be a good thing for the trumpet, trombone and marching brass community.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-02-21 2:00 p.m.

[quote="baBposaune"]Warburton is looking at buying the Kanstul factory in Anaheim.[/quote]

To move the Kanstul manufacturing equipment to Florida? :idk:

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-21 2:14 p.m.

[quote="baBposaune"]Warburton is looking at buying the Kanstul factory in Anaheim. If that comes to pass it would be a good thing for the trumpet, trombone and marching brass community.[/quote]
I'd heard whispers about "someone from Florida" and thought it might be Warburton, but was not able to verify the rumor.

I would expect that they will pack everything up and ship it to the Sunshine State.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-02-21 2:16 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]I would expect that they will pack everything up and ship it to the Sunshine State.[/quote]

Everything would be a lot cheaper, especially real estate.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-02-21 2:28 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="78843" time="1550776453" user_id="119">
I would expect that they will pack everything up and ship it to the Sunshine State.[/quote]

Everything would be a lot cheaper, especially real estate.
</QUOTE>
Labor, too. And energy. Insurance. Taxes. You get the picture.

But beyond the cost, I can't see trying to run a factory in Anaheim, CA from Titusville, FL.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-03-01 1:18 a.m.

Any updates? I saw mention on facebook that Kanstul is going to be demoing at Trombone Day at Mount Sac??? Are they up and running again? Or just burning through the rest of their inventory?

JohnL · 2019-03-01 2:06 a.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]Any updates? I saw mention on facebook that Kanstul is going to be demoing at Trombone Day at Mount Sac??? Are they up and running again? Or just burning through the rest of their inventory?[/quote]
Was that a post by Kanstul or someone else?

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-03-01 3:43 a.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]I saw mention on facebook that Kanstul is going to be demoing at Trombone Day at Mount Sac??? Are they up and running again? Or just burning through the rest of their inventory?[/quote]

I guess we'll know for sure on Saturday (Southern California Trombone Day). :idk:

No good reason why Kanstul shouldn't be selling off their inventory - unless all the sales personnel have also been laid off!

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-03-01 2:15 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="mrdeacon" post_id="79465" time="1551421105" user_id="3239">
Any updates? I saw mention on facebook that Kanstul is going to be demoing at Trombone Day at Mount Sac??? Are they up and running again? Or just burning through the rest of their inventory?[/quote]
Was that a post by Kanstul or someone else?
</QUOTE>
Horn Guys posted it on facebook. They worded the post in a way that made it seem like Kanstul would be there.

BflatBass · by **BflatBass** » 2019-03-03 11:27 p.m.

The Kanstul Musical Instruments page on Facebook just posted something about their appearance at the SoCal Trombone Day about 11 to 12 hrs ago.

This is what it said along with some pics:

"SoCal Trombone Day last-minute entry. Was a good day of clinics, concerts and meeting local players. Special thanks to Len Wicks, the MSAC music department and the other local dealers who made the day possible!"

Why would they do this if they are going out of business? I could be wrong but it just didn't seem like they were trying to sell off remaining inventory. The pics had a lot of horns and cases on display.

Just go to Facebook and type in Kanstul Musical Instruments, Inc in the search field.

Robert

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-03-03 11:53 p.m.

[quote="BflatBass"]Why would they do this if they are going out of business? I could be wrong but it just didn't seem like they were trying to sell off remaining inventory. The pics had a lot of horns and cases on display.[/quote]
Not all of those horns are Kanstul's. The long table with cases, accessories, and trombones belonged to another vendor (Bertrand's Music). The shorter table next to the Kanstul banner (four trombones on the table plus the alto on the floor) was the Kanstul display. They also had a list of cosmetically challenged horns they were looking to move out (those horns were not on display).

BflatBass · by **BflatBass** » 2019-03-04 12:01 a.m.

Ok, that make more sense. I misinterpreted the photos.

TheSheriff · by **TheSheriff** » 2019-03-09 10:36 a.m.

----

Kanstul is having a blowout sale. Both small and large bore tenors, not all models, as well as euphs, tubas, bass trumpet...the info I received says to contact them by email only, no calls.

www.kanstul.com

===

Nhtrombone · by **Nhtrombone** » 2019-03-09 10:43 a.m.

Is there a way to see these blowout prices?

Trav1s · by **Trav1s** » 2019-03-09 10:59 a.m.

The blowout stuff is on their Facebook page.

Nhtrombone · by **Nhtrombone** » 2019-03-09 11:19 a.m.

Not trombones yet :-(

TheSheriff · 2019-03-09 3:52 p.m.

see below

TheSheriff · by **TheSheriff** » 2019-03-09 3:52 p.m.

[quote="TheSheriff"]---

<LINK_TEXT text="www.kanstul.com/wp-content/uploads/2019 ... celist.pdf">www.kanstul.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/kanstul-blowout-pricelist.pdf</LINK_TEXT>

===[/quote]

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-05-16 5:49 p.m.

BAC just posted something on facebook... looks like BAC bought up a ton of parts and tooling from Kanstul.

Mike never said what he actually bought just said "tooling and parts" so I'm not sure if that means he effectively bought Kanstul and has the authority to produce Kanstul horns or if they just bought manufacturing stuff.

Wonder if he got all the bell and leadpipe mandrels? He does point at some in the video...

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-05-16 6:32 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]Mike never said what he actually bought just said "tooling and parts" so I'm not sure if that means he effectively bought Kanstul and has the authority to produce Kanstul horns or if they just bought manufacturing stuff.[/quote]
Just watched the video. You'll notice that Mike never actually said the name "Kanstul"; I expect that would indicate that he bought hardware but not the name.

Hopefully Mike will be able to offer jobs to some of the former Kanstul guys. I know of at least one who interviewed with him after the shutdown.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-05-16 10:10 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]Just watched the video. You'll notice that Mike never actually said the name "Kanstul"; I expect that would indicate that he bought hardware but not the name.

Hopefully Mike will be able to offer jobs to some of the former Kanstul guys. I know of at least one who interviewed with him after the shutdown.[/quote]
I noticed that. I will say I'm happy BAC was the one to get the tooling and parts. Just based off of how they've been using former Williams and Olds tooling I think they will be able to do some cool things with the things they've gotten.

Imagine them being able to readily sell parts like reproduction 62H J bends, all of the various leadpipes and all the oodles of odd tubing that Kanstul made. I'm excited about the possibilities!

I am... slightly irked he hasn't just outright said BAC did or did not buy the Kanstul name and everything attached to it and/or that BAC ONLY bought "X" tooling and parts. He posted something else on Instagram, which like the video on facebook mildly implies BAC bought the company without him outright saying he did.

Maybe he did make it clear somewhere else... if he does outright say it someone please post that here! I'm interested to hear what actually happened in the deal and the status on Kanstul!

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-05-16 10:32 p.m.

Mike did not buy the name, but he bought all the tooling. All of it. A lot of stuff that hasnt neen in production for a long time, not original to Kanstul is included, so he is going to potentially resurrect some designs not seen in a while, with some BAC originality of course. I'm not sure what the plans are on tubas, but theres in there as well.

Personally i find this very exciting, and am eager to see what comes of it. Moving all of that is going to be a logistical nightmare!

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-05-16 10:47 p.m.

[quote="LIBrassCo"]Mike did not buy the name, but he bought all the tooling. All of it. A lot of stuff that hasnt neen in production for a long time, not original to Kanstul is included, so he is going to potentially resurrect some designs not seen in a while, with some BAC originality of course. I'm not sure what the plans are on tubas, but theres in there as well.

Personally i find this very exciting, and am eager to see what comes of it. Moving all of that is going to be a logistical nightmare![/quote]
That's really awesome!!!

Like I said in my other post I'm excited to see what they cook up. While I might not like all of their designs I do appreciate that they are willing to try new things and resurrect old things!

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-05-16 10:50 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]I am... slightly irked he hasn't just outright said BAC did or did not buy the Kanstul name and everything attached to it and/or that BAC ONLY bought "X" tooling and parts. He posted something else on Instagram, which like the video on facebook mildly implies BAC bought the company without him outright saying he did.

Maybe he did make it clear somewhere else... if he does outright say it someone please post that here! I'm interested to hear what actually happened in the deal and the status on Kanstul![/quote]
Give it a few days. Maybe they're still hammering out the details. Maybe the name is specifically excluded from the agreement, so Mike can't use it in any of his promotional materials.

Looking at the video again, at around the 1:00 mark:

There's a lot of tradition in the room I'm standing in right now. A lot of history. There is things like bins and parts and tools that were in the original Burbank Benge factory and the F. E. Olds company and factory and um and another factory...I'm in Anaheim, California

Seems like he's trying to think of a way to make it clear that he's talking about Kanstul without actually saying the name. I'm actually kinda impressed - he got through about 11 minutes of live stream without slipping up and saying the "K" word.

Schlitz · 2019-05-17 3:54 a.m.

JonTheCadet · by **JonTheCadet** » 2019-05-17 2:11 p.m.

This is his reply to my comment on his video:

"We purchased all of the tooling, jigs, fixtures. The guy who taught me how to make bells, John Duda, is also the guy that taught Arnufo to make bells at Kanstul. And now John is working as our Foreman to help pass the torch! Now this! We’re committed to gradually bringing back as many models as possible and preserving the integrity of ‘how they were made’. Something often overlooked or completely ignored in past situations like this!!"

bbocaner · 2019-05-17 4:14 p.m.

Mr. Corrigan certainly is enthusiastic and he obviously loves what he does. And he seems to be able to do some nice work at times. My problem with him is that he's also a compulsive liar: things are always "on order" or they "went out last week" or "just waiting on one more part". I also had an unfortunate incident where I traded an instrument to him which I later found out he sold to one of his employees for a sweetheart deal and pressured me to accept the low price for. Not ethical. I've heard the same thing from many other players as well as from a bunch of his former employers and coworkers. And while I'm sure he can do nice repair work, the piece I sent to him was some of the most shoddy ugly half-ass repair work I've ever seen, and I was charged top dollar for it. I feel like he lets his ambition get ahead of him. Hopefully now that his operation has grown he's been able to add more people who can keep him focused and honest. But, it's hard for me to see this as anything but a very bad thing for the Kanstul legacy.

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2019-05-17 4:21 p.m.

[quote="LIBrassCo"]Mike did not buy the name, but he bought all the tooling. All of it. A lot of stuff that hasnt neen in production for a long time, not original to Kanstul is included, so he is going to potentially resurrect some designs not seen in a while, with some BAC originality of course. I'm not sure what the plans are on tubas, but theres in there as well.

Personally i find this very exciting, and am eager to see what comes of it. Moving all of that is going to be a logistical nightmare![/quote]

I'm hoping something like a buffing machine or draw table will fall off the trailer as he's passing through Dallas.....

Yes it's interesting/exciting that this stuff will still be available, but then again, the things that have disappeared or are no longer available can be attributed to lack of interest from the playing public, so unless there'a sizeable group of players willing to shell out some cash, we might or might not again see some of the older designs.

Eric

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-05-17 4:22 p.m.

He certainly has his fan club. I'm a little apprehensive at how this will turn out as well.

bbocaner · by **bbocaner** » 2019-05-17 4:29 p.m.

From what I can surmise, most of those people in his fan club have never actually tried to do business with him.

JohnL · 2019-05-17 6:59 p.m.

[quote="Bonearzt"]I'm hoping something like a buffing machine or draw table will fall off the trailer as he's passing through Dallas.....[/quote]
You want I should sneak in and loosen a tie-down or two before they roll out of Anaheim? <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>

In all seriousness, I don't think that sort of thing was included in what Mike acquired. It's "tooling, jigs, and fixtures". No mention of machinery. Those big items would be expensive to transport, particularly if they are large and/or heavy enough to require a specialty mover.

If I were Mike, I would try to fast track the trumpets, with special emphasis on getting the parts Kanstul made for third parties back in production as quickly as possible. The longer that stuff is out of production, the more likely those folks are to either find a new source or go out of business. If he's able to help them out, that'll create some significant goodwill toward him in the industry. Win/Win.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-05-17 7:00 p.m.

[quote="JonTheCadet"]This is his reply to my comment on his video:

"We purchased all of the tooling, jigs, fixtures. The guy who taught me how to make bells, John Duda, is also the guy that taught Arnufo to make bells at Kanstul. And now John is working as our Foreman to help pass the torch! Now this! We’re committed to gradually bringing back as many models as possible and preserving the integrity of ‘how they were made’. Something often overlooked or completely ignored in past situations like this!!"[/quote]
There was also a comment he made somewhere also on instagram last night where he outright said that they bought the tooling and parts but not the name.

Happy we've got confirmation on that now from both primary and secondary sources.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-05-17 7:01 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]In all seriousness, I don't think that sort of thing was included in what Mike acquired. It's "tooling, jigs, and fixtures". No mention of machinery. Those big items would be expensive to transport, particularly if they are large and/or heavy enough to require a specialty mover.

If I were Mike, I would try to fast track the trumpets, with special emphasis on getting the parts Kanstul made for third parties back in production as quickly as possible. The longer that stuff is out of production, the more likely those folks are to either find a new source or go out of business. If he's able to help them out, that'll create some significant goodwill toward him in the industry. Win/Win.[/quote]
Good point! That was a large chunk of Kanstuls business. Someone has to fill the gap they left!

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-05-17 7:26 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]There was also a comment he made somewhere also on instagram last night where he outright said that they bought the tooling and parts but not the name.[/quote]
Did the post specifically mention "parts"? If so, that adds a new dimension beyond the tooling, jigs, and fixtures. It takes a while to start making money from tooling, but parts you can start selling as soon as you get everything organized. It won't necessarily be a lot of revenue, but it's at least some return on the investment.

Once again putting myself in Mike's shoes, the first trombone stuff I'd try to get into production would be the leadpipes. Lots of guys and gals playing Kanstul pipes in other makes of horn. If he's true to the spirit of Kanstul, he'll call them the Anaheim (or maybe "OC") leadpipes. He might even be able to use most of the old Kanstul designations (depends on their trademark status).

Given the never-ending discussions of tenor/bass "tweener" horns we have here, maybe he can look into that - especially if he's got the Olds S-20/S-23 bell mandrel. Mate that up with a dual-bore .547"/.562" slide and a good double valve set and you might have a winner (Mike, if you're reading this - I'd be very interested in buying one myself).

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-05-17 11:50 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]

if he's got the Olds S-20/S-23 bell mandrel. Mate that up with a dual-bore .547"/.562" slide and a good double valve set and you might have a winner (Mike, if you're reading this - I'd be very interested in buying one myself).[/quote]

The S20 already had a 555/565 TIS slide. Two things I'd do to modernize that horn - lighten the slide somewhat (maybe with the Kanstul TIS mechanism) and put a double valve on it. In fact, resurrecting the 9" P24g with the CR valves and levers and the dual bore slide option might be a more marketable move...

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-05-18 1:17 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]The S20 already had a 555/565 TIS slide. Two things I'd do to modernize that horn - lighten the slide somewhat (maybe with the Kanstul TIS mechanism) and put a double valve on it.[/quote]
And no one currently makes slides tubes in .554" or .565"; to have any hope of getting the horn made, it would be necessary to use as many off-the-shelf parts as possible - thus a .547"/.562" slide. A lighter slide would be a must - but would you even want to make it as a TIS, at least to start with? Replacing the J-crook with a tuning slide and a neckpipe might result in a more marketable design.

In fact, resurrecting the 9" P24g with the CR valves and levers and the dual bore slide option might be a more marketable move...

Except the P-24G is too big to be a good tweener. It's got the same size flare (9") as an S-20, but that's where the resemblance ends; it's about .050" bigger at the tail end of the bell than the S-20 bell at the same point, and the throat is much larger (based on mute insertion).

As an aside, I know for certain that Kanstul made at least one dependent-double symphony-bore tenor - but Zig used their regular symphonic tenor bell, while the guy it was built for had envisioned something more like a King 1480/5B bell (which would have required new tooling). It was never quite what he'd hoped for.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-05-18 4:30 a.m.

Its a little off topic, but I'm doing a "baby bass" for myself. And if anyones interested, a combination that works is a holton 9" bell, with a king 7b tuning tuning crook, two .562 valves (im using rotax) and a 547-562 slide. I am undecided on the leadpipe, but i may end up with either none, or a very short one i will machine out of billet titanium (really into titanium these days). The throat of the bell is more tenorish, but the tapers are perfect. If you want it to have a deeper sound, just go .562 slide and .593 valves. Im going with adjusting the leadpipe (or lack thereof) to get what i am looking for.

LarryPrestonRoberson · by **LarryPrestonRoberson** » 2019-05-18 11:01 a.m.

Mike Corrigan posted a video on Facebook. He's obviously at the Kanstul factory, although he never says the name. I'm assuming this is for legal reasons. Apparently B.A.C. is acquiring all the tooling. Is anyone able to elaborate?

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2019-05-18 11:39 a.m.

[quote="LIBrassCo"]Its a little off topic, but I'm doing a "baby bass" for myself. And if anyones interested, a combination that works is a holton 9" bell, with a king 7b tuning tuning crook, two .562 valves (im using rotax) and a 547-562 slide. I am undecided on the leadpipe, but i may end up with either none, or a very short one i will machine out of billet titanium (really into titanium these days). The throat of the bell is more tenorish, but the tapers are perfect. If you want it to have a deeper sound, just go .562 slide and .593 valves. Im going with adjusting the leadpipe (or lack thereof) to get what i am looking for.[/quote]

What does this have to do with Kanstul?...

Schlitz · 2019-05-18 12:12 p.m.

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2019-05-18 12:13 p.m.

Wait, so John Duda is now at BAC? Can anyone confirm this?

Schlitz · 2019-05-18 12:27 p.m.

pfrancis · by **pfrancis** » 2019-05-18 9:07 p.m.

Regarding whereabouts of John Duda:

http://www.calicchio.com/

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-05-18 9:12 p.m.

I was answering John's tweener horn post is all.

Cotboneman · by **Cotboneman** » 2019-05-20 6:33 p.m.

[quote="LarryPrestonRoberson"]Mike Corrigan posted a video on Facebook. He's obviously at the Kanstul factory, although he never says the name. I'm assuming this is for legal reasons. Apparently B.A.C. is acquiring all the tooling. Is anyone able to elaborate?[/quote]

I just saw the video, and the description now says that B.A.C. is acquiring the manufacturing content from Kanstul and will be relocating it to Kansas City. He only mentions FE Olds in the video itself, possibly for legal reasons until the deal is finalized, but the video description does state Kanstul.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-05-20 7:20 p.m.

I have mixed feelings about this deal. On one hand it's great that we might have another shot at Kanstul and Olds horns. Kanstul stuff was very affordable, and kind of minimalist design . On the other hand BAC has a reputation for severely overpriced and kind of ornate stuff.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2019-05-21 4:01 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]I have mixed feelings about this deal. On one hand it's great that we might have another shot at Kanstul and Olds horns. Kanstul stuff was very affordable, and kind of minimalist design . On the other hand BAC has a reputation for severely overpriced and kind of ornate stuff.[/quote]

I feel obligated for accuracy purposes to address this. Will BAC make you a one of a kind, over the top horn? Hell yea they will. But they will also make you an instrument in line with conventional standards? If that's what you want, yes, as it's solely up to the customer. As far as pricing, are they higher than some other companies? Sure. Are they lower than others? Again, yes.

They don't want to be the next Kanstul, or end up in financial hot water like Shires did. They are simply charging what they feel they need to in order to grow a US custom horn company in a market where there are so few. Some may find their pricing more aggressive, while others will understand what they stand for. Personally, I get it, and wholeheartedly support what they are doing for the industry.

JohnL · 2019-05-21 1:41 p.m.

It's not clear how much of the former Olds tooling was there at Kanstul, so I'm not holding my breath on any Olds models being resurrected. Even if the tooling is there, there's a big question as to whether there would be enough demand to make it worthwhile. It's not like people were lining up for Olds horns back when the factory closed in 1979.

Mike has been in possession of (and has apparently been using) the Olds George Roberts model bell mandrel for a while now (he mentions it on his website). OTOH, I know that MK Drawing ended up with at least some of the duo-octagonal slide dies.

I hope to someday see BAC Custom tubas and euphoniums. Maybe even French horns. Zig Kanstul put a lot work into developing those models; it'd be a shame for all of it to come to naught.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-05-22 12:47 a.m.

[quote="JohnL"]Mike has been in possession of (and has apparently been using) the Olds George Roberts model bell mandrel for a while now (he mentions it on his website). OTOH, I know that MK Drawing ended up with at least some of the duo-octagonal slide dies.[/quote]
His website makes a point of mentioning that. I'm not sure how often he actually uses the mandrel.

JohnL what was the throat like on the Olds Roberts horns anyways? Was it like a 70H or more the wide throat 62Hish throat?

Tbarh · by **Tbarh** » 2019-05-22 4:37 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]I have mixed feelings about this deal. On one hand it's great that we might have another shot at Kanstul and Olds horns. Kanstul stuff was very affordable, and kind of minimalist design . On the other hand BAC has a reputation for severely overpriced and kind of ornate stuff.[/quote]

Exactly :good:... I would feel i was paying for fancy szchmanzy tube loops and weird finish rather than the utmost care for sound, "owners pride" and longevity.. I Wish he made a separate brand for the "Liberace horns" and a separate division where he focus on good quality horns that are semi-affordable and where forms follow function.. And speaking if bass trombones.. I hope he would ressurect the Williams 10 bass trombone, why not with a separate tuning slide with an extra D valve making it a convertable tru inline double.. An almost illusive horn that would otherwise be lost.. I would buy! And the leadpipes too! :good:

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-05-22 1:10 p.m.

[quote="mrdeacon"]JohnL what was the throat like on the Olds Roberts horns anyways? Was it like a 70H or more the wide throat 62Hish throat?[/quote]
Unfortunately, I do not have any non-Olds horns for comparison.

baBposaune · by **baBposaune** » 2019-06-15 9:09 p.m.

BAC aquired Kanstul Musical Instruments.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-06-16 12:55 p.m.

[quote="baBposaune"]BAC aquired Kanstul Musical Instruments.[/quote]
Is that statement based on any new information? At last word, BAC was purchasing tooling and maybe parts, but not the company (i.e., the name) itself.

baBposaune · 2019-06-16 6:39 p.m.

My industry source said "BAC bought Kanstul." Usually this would mean they bought the whole enchilada: name, etc. It may take a few days for me to get the full story from BAC but when I do I will update and or clarify the details.

baBposaune · by **baBposaune** » 2019-06-16 6:59 p.m.

Go to the Facebook page for B.A.C. Musical Instruments "Best American Craftsmen" and watch the video and hear what Mike Corrigan has to say on the topic.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-06-16 10:14 p.m.

[quote="baBposaune"]Go to the Facebook page for B.A.C. Musical Instruments "Best American Craftsmen" and watch the video and hear what Mike Corrigan has to say on the topic.[/quote]
I watched the video from June 6 (where he starts on the production floor, points out Earl Williams' old lathe and some mandrels, then walks down into the lower floor and shows the stacks of stuff from Anaheim). He's still being very careful about using the name "Kanstul"; you'll notice that he only says it in reference to being able to provide parts. Otherwise, it's "a factory in Anaheim".

It's still not entirely clear just how much he bought, though we now know for certain that the transaction included parts as well as tooling. He does mention that there's a larger, newer lathe on the way, which may well be from the Kanstul factory (though he's not specific on that point).

disco · by **disco** » 2019-06-18 12:14 a.m.

"We did not purchase the name brand rights"

baBposaune · by **baBposaune** » 2019-06-18 11:38 a.m.

As Arte Johnson would say, "Veeery interesting....."

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-06-18 12:08 p.m.

[quote="disco"]"We did not purchase the name brand rights"[/quote]
Just to clarify - this is a quote from Mike Corrigan's Facebook live feed on 6/17. Here is the video:

<FACEBOOK id="1067029360155353" type="v" user="coolisbac"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/coolisbac/vide ... 360155353/">https://www.facebook.com/coolisbac/videos/1067029360155353/</LINK_TEXT></FACEBOOK>

He makes the statement at around the -33:38 mark.

This video also gives us some more information as what all was included in the acquisition. It wasn't just tooling and parts, but also large production machinery (lathes, draw benches, presses, etc.). It would seem that BAC pretty much got the entire factory.

It's going to take quite a while to sort through all that stuff, particularly since they have to keep BAC's existing production going while doing so.

Schlitz · 2019-06-19 3:32 p.m.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-06-19 3:41 p.m.

[quote="Schlitz"]Getting those bell mounts, leadpipes, etc, BACK into production, should be a high priority.[/quote]

May not be a high priority for Mike Corrigan. Expect he's pretty busy already - if nothing else trying to identify and inventory everything (surely including a lot a junk) he bought from Kanstul.

BAC will probably do what makes financial sense for their business. Kanstul lovers will have to keep their fingers crossed.

mrdeacon · 2019-06-25 4:41 p.m.

I wish the videos being made since receiving the stuff from Kanstul would be shorter. They're all these 20 minute long epics with only 3 minutes of pertinent info. I've only been able to make it through a couple of them!

Schlitz · 2019-06-26 1:44 a.m.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-06-27 1:32 a.m.

[quote="Schlitz"]It turns out that several people made offers on the Kanstul tooling. The plot thickens. My impressions right now are that BAC was just buying tooling to increase production. For the dinosaurs out there, it’s like AOL buying Time Warner.[/quote]
oooooh spicy! Does make sense and lines up with some of the stuff that's been said in the videos. He makes a point of mentioning production in his videos. Doesn't bode well for our dreams of getting all these random parts and widgets reproduced :(

BflatBass · by **BflatBass** » 2019-06-28 2:05 a.m.

The Kanstul Musical Instruments page on Facebook has a list of their remaining horns for sale and they list their email if you want more info or you can PM them on FB for a quicker response.

I'm surprised there's anything left. I would've thought they'd have gotten rid of everything by now. Lots of tbones on that list including a Contra and a couple of "Proto" trombones that I'm assuming are prototypes?

Robert

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2019-06-28 2:27 a.m.

Some of the stuff being sold is sorta over priced other stuff is stupid cheap. They had a couple of French horns for $500 and a 3/4 F tuba for a $1000! I was 10 minutes late on the tuba : (

I think the cheap stuff has all been sold till they go full fire sale mode.

LarryPrestonRoberson · by **LarryPrestonRoberson** » 2019-06-29 7:28 p.m.

[quote="BflatBass"]...Lots of tbones on that list including a Contra and a couple of "Proto" trombones that I'm assuming are prototypes?

Robert[/quote]
Wouldn't a "Proto" trombone be a sackbut? :lol:

mrpillow · by **mrpillow** » 2019-06-30 12:18 a.m.

[quote="LarryPrestonRoberson"]Wouldn't a "Proto" trombone be a sackbut? :lol:[/quote]

Not if you're Italian.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2019-07-02 11:11 a.m.

This makes me sad. I'm just glad that unlike with trumpets and other valved instruments, there's not many parts for my trombones that are really "proprietary", except for the CR valves on them. Still it was nice to know I could easily get parts, and fabrication shouldn't be problem.

They really did make some nice horns. It's a shame that they couldn't survive in the current market.

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2020-01-07 6:24 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]This makes me sad. I'm just glad that unlike with trumpets and other valved instruments, there's not many parts for my trombones that are really "proprietary", except for the CR valves on them. Still it was nice to know I could easily get parts, and fabrication shouldn't be problem.

They really did make some nice horns. It's a shame that they couldn't survive in the current market.[/quote]

What makes me sad is that I think they could have if they'd been smarter about promotion and endorsements.

hojoos · by **hojoos** » 2020-03-05 2:30 p.m.

I haven't heard that! Seriously? Why on earth would they close up shop? Didn't they just release a new line of trumpets and make a showing at NAMM?

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-03-05 6:49 p.m.

[quote="hojoos"]I haven't heard that! Seriously? Why on earth would they close up shop? Didn't they just release a new line of trumpets and make a showing at NAMM?[/quote]

Why would they close up shop? :idk:

Perhaps because:

• The company founder (Zig Kanstul) died

• The remaining company management was a little shaky and not as committed as Zig

(not a fact, just my speculation)

• The marketing strategy was amorphous

• Lots of competition, domestic and foreign

• The products were not competitive

• The company was not very profitable

• The company was no longer economically viable

These are purely guesses on my part, since I have no personal inside knowledge!

Capitalism is cruel!

Molefsky · by **Molefsky** » 2022-08-16 6:42 p.m.

I disagree that the products were not competitive. They absolutely were, in fact that made some of their competitors' instruments for them at different points in time.

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