Tenor Clef - Betamax of Clefs?

JoeBok · by **JoeBok** » 2025-02-01 7:40 p.m.

I am returning to playing after a 40 year break. All those years ago I had started learning tenor clef, but alas those memories did not make it through my hiatus. Anyway, I wasn't worried about it until today when I browsing around for some tunes, I noticed some in tenor clef. Not many, but enough to make me wonder how big a deal is it?

For the upper registers it seems ideal - my old eyes would be happy to not have to figure out so many ledger lines, but my old brain has other things to worry about.

I am curious what the modern experience is - is tenor clef a novelty or critical for certain genres? Academic or practical?

Thanks!

RobL · by **RobL** » 2025-02-01 7:43 p.m.

Very practical, imo.

Pezza · by **Pezza** » 2025-02-01 8:28 p.m.

In brass bands I don't think I've seen tenor in a piece less than 40 years old!

Concert bands have tenor pop up every now & then, even in new music. Normally not a whole piece, just a section.

Big bands also get it now & then.

Pit bands/ orchestras it is quite common.

Don't know about orchestras, most of my experience is on bass, but is quite common in older pieces.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2025-02-01 8:41 p.m.

[quote="Pezza"]Don't know about orchestras, most of my experience is on bass, but is quite common in older pieces.[/quote]
I would say that tenor clef is a must for someone playing first or second trombone in an orchestra. If you're playing first, alto is also very useful.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2025-02-01 8:47 p.m.

I mean, you can use the basic skill of tenor clef reading to read Bb Treble clef…. So I’d say it is really a necessity if you want to do anything other than play in low skill community groups reading off a page.

Cheers,

Andy

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-02-01 8:52 p.m.

Depends on the repertoire you want to play. But if you do any orchestral or classical solo repertoire on tenor trombone, you'll see it very regularly. In some contexts you'll even see it more often than bass clef.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2025-02-01 9:13 p.m.

I use tenor clef to read Bb treble parts, alto clef to fake harmony parts, and mezzo-soprano clef to read french horn parts, far more than I actually see parts written in those clefs. And of course treble clef. It's extremely useful to be proficient in more than bass clef. It helps a lot to start when you're young and learn it like a language. But it's not that hard later, if you just learn to recognize two or three notes each day. Pretty soon you know enough to get by.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2025-02-01 9:17 p.m.

I prefer tenor clef unless the chart is jazz or very low. Tenor clef comes up nearly every performance.

Alto clef is the one I think ... Meh ... Do we really need to use that one too?

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2025-02-01 9:52 p.m.

Tenor clef should be required for all trombone players. You look silly if you show up somewhere and can't read tenor. It's a basic skill, easy to obtain and absolutely essential from time to time.

I play with a pro who can't or wont read clefs, and its a real drag when you can't play something because of one guy. Plus he always shows up with a straight horn so he can't play low parts. Don't be that guy.

Just learn it. Lots of us did it in high school, so its not hard.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-02-01 11:12 p.m.

Tenor clef fits the tessitura (how's that for a $5 word?) of the tenor trombone better than bass clef. It is used regularly in orchestra parts. As has been mentioned it's also a great way to read transposed treble parts like for trumpet, clarinet, or tenor saxophone.

If your goal is finding lots of popular music to play, I'd also suggest learning to read treble clef "down an octave" where :trebleclef: :space3: is played :bassclef: :line6:

Note that the relationship of treble and bass clefs (particularly in piano music) is that :bassclef: :line6: is :trebleclef: :line0: (Middle C). Some parts I've seen have some high notes written in embedded treble clef -- something much more common in cello music. In the bass clef 1st trombone part of Brahms' "Academic Festival Overture" there is a high A and a high C both written in treble clef inside a normal bass clef part.

For that matter, the relationship of all the common trombone clefs is :bassclef: :line6: is :tenorclef: :line4: is :alto: :line3: is :trebleclef: :line0:

JoeBok · by **JoeBok** » 2025-02-01 11:43 p.m.

Thanks for all the info! I will definitely incorporate re-learning it as I get back into playing!

PhilTrombone · by **PhilTrombone** » 2025-02-02 8:16 a.m.

There are a few etude books around that help you "ease into" tenor clef. They have the etude printed once in bass clef, and repeated in tenor.

These days, you could use software to do the same thing, taking any bass clef music as a source.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-02-02 9:18 a.m.

For learning clefs:

Back in the Bad Old Days we used to use a book by Blazhevich called Clef Studies (now available for free in IMSLP as "School for Trombone". These included a lot of clef switches in the middle of exercises. Good practice, but not for beginners.

Simone Mantia "The Trombone Virtuoso" (also available for free on IMSLP) has a bunch of much simpler exercises in tenor, alto, and transposed treble clef. Easier to deal with. After you are sorta comfortable with these exercises you would be ready for Blazhevich, although Blazhevich does not include transposed treble.

Reginald Fink wrote two books, "Introducing the Tenor Clef" and "Introducing the Alto Clef".

I understand Brad Edwards has written a couple of similar books that are about 20 years newer than Fink's.

marccromme · by **marccromme** » 2025-02-02 9:26 a.m.

Tenor clef is very usefull, especially in solo, synfonic, chamber and concert band.

The trick on learning new clefs is to let your visual brain learn it subconciously.

Find easy and simple tunes, which you play well in bass clef, play them from bass clef until you almost can play them by heart.

Then do the pen and paper work and write them out in treble clef. Yes, do it yourself, cause this way you have to think.

Then play them again by heart, but look at the trble clef notes. Do that many times, and you brain will connect the dots, from what you play to what you read.

Do it again next day with a new tune. And again. After two weeks, your brain has figured it out for you,, it was fun and easy

Then you just can read and play treble clef without problems.

Same trick for alto, or any transposition you want to master.

Its quite easy to learn this way. ..

JoeBok · by **JoeBok** » 2025-02-02 1:22 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]...

Reginald Fink wrote two books, "Introducing the Tenor Clef" and "Introducing the Alto Clef".

...[/quote]

I still have the Fink book from the early 80s when I was learning it the first time. I'll start there and see what happens. Thanks!

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2025-02-02 4:07 p.m.

Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-02-02 5:51 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.[/quote]

It's not a shibboleth and you don't necessarily need to go to music school to read it.

I personally don't like reading parts with 6 or 7 ledger lines (unlike most flute platers). Even 4 can be too many. Up or down.

Learning other clefs can be a good way to transpose. I was taught this by a guy who played in one of the TV orchestras where they would get a guest who couldn't sing in the key of the arrangement so they had to transpose "on the fly". Using a clef to read the part in a different key can make things easier. I actually "sorta" taught myself 7 clefs that gave me all the transposition I would need.

While people who write for Jazz or Stage Bands seem to prefer bass clef for trombones, people writing for other ensembles do use tenor clef. And alto clef. And transposing treble clef. And even sometimes native treble clef.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-02-02 6:31 p.m.

I didn’t go to music school. I like tenor clef. I’d say the majority of classical pieces have at least some tenor clef in them. And if you ever want to play first trombone in a symphony orchestra you need to read alto clef as well.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2025-02-02 6:51 p.m.

In addition to the Fink books Bruce mentioned, Brad Edwards has a book on reading tenor and alto clefs: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.hornbonepress.com/instrumen ... one/#books">https://www.hornbonepress.com/instruments/trombone/#books</LINK_TEXT>

Ralph Sauer has a book of intermediate clef studies through Cherry Music:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://cherryclassics.com/collections/ ... ducts/2649">https://cherryclassics.com/collections/method-books/products/2649</LINK_TEXT>

Alto, tenor, and even mezzo soprano clef have their uses. In orchestras, reading alto and tenor clefs is assumed. If you want to play symphony parts, it’s just another skill to learn, like legato or double-tonguing. Some Russian pieces write the bass trombone part in alto clef, so unless you want to transpose and write out a new part, it’s just as much work to learn to read alto clef.

It’s rare to see tenor clef in concert band parts, but stranger things have happened.

For most trombonists, it’s easier to transpose by replacing a clef than transposing by interval. We can read Eb parts already: just think bass clef and add 3 flats. Bb parts are easy if you can read tenor clef. You just need to add two flats, and watch your F’s and B’s. I use mezzo soprano clef to read Horn (in F) parts—just add 1 flat.

Practically, though, if all you want to do is play jazz, or commercial, or play in a concert band, you don’t need to learn it. Is it fun to learn? Maybe, maybe not—it depends on whether you like to learn new skills like this. One of the biggest benefits: you have a huge amount of literature you can play when you read tenor clef.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2025-02-02 7:19 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.[/quote]
(Whispers)

There should be MORE tenor clef used rather than using a gallon of ink on ledger lines that are harder to read.

I learned tenor clef a good 6 years before I was anywhere near a music school, and I never majored in music anyway. It is a remarkable handy skill that has applications beyond any snobbery and orchestral literature.

If you want to consider ‘C’ clefs dinosaurs… chicken are dinosaurs and hardly obsolete. Very versatile, even.

Cheers

Andy

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-02-02 7:32 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.[/quote]

Well, the reality is that whether or not you went to music school, you will encounter tenor (and alto) clef in a variety of repertoire as a trombonist. And whether or not you went to music school, you most likely will sooner or later encounter a situation where you need to transpose at sight, where knowing your clefs will come in very handy. Whether it should be used by copyists in big band parts is neither here nor there. Aknowledging that fluency in clefs can be a very useful skill (and for many of us, an absolutely essential one) is not snobbism. It's just fact.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2025-02-02 8:26 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.[/quote]

Whether tenor clef "should" be used or not is above my pay grade. All I can say is that it has been used for a couple hundred years anyway. Ignoring it means you throw away a lot of opportunities. Cello and bassoon music also use tenor clef. I never figured out why jazz ignores it, with all of the ledger lines in first parts. I was reading it before I was even in high school. I agree non-transposed treble is also something you should be able to read, and flipping octaves is something everyone should be able to do on sight. That's what the bass has to do, even in a jazz band, and it uses a special clef.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-02-02 11:50 p.m.

If it were up to me, tenor clef would be the main clef for the tenor trombone (including beginners) all of the time. High B flat is 2 ledger lines above the staff - low f is 2 ledger lines below it. It fits the standard range of the instrument better than bass clef.

If you play in an orchestra, it is the clef you see the most, at least in the classical repertoire. In pops shows - less so. Many major solo pieces have large sections in tenor clef. People complaining about tenor clef - suck it up and learn it! It's also useful for covering trumpet, tenor sax, treble clef baritone parts. The opera we're playing this week at work has 7 different transpositions in the trumpet and horn parts - we have it easy with 3 clefs (I don't include treble, because I almost never see it unless it's an arrangement by someone that isn't aware of the C clefs - the arrangements usually show off their ignorance in other ways).

The great Rob McConnell, leader of the Boss Brass used tenor clef in some of his big band charts. All of his players read tenor, and he hated the multiple ledger lines too. I've always thought that was a good idea, but unfortunately, you can't fight tradition.

Jim Scott

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2025-02-03 11:36 a.m.

Chord sheet reading. Just get the note, not the octave, not eighth, quarter, half, so I get to choose high or low or middle. Beats all the staff lines! Tuba music is most challenging for me, have actually had tuba music 4 times in the last 25 years. Trumpet music I’ve had enough experience higher notes haven’t been a problem.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-02-03 12:19 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.[/quote]

This post has been low key bugging me. It seems to adopt the derision and rejection of knowledge and expertise that is so unfortunately running rampant in the United States right now.

It seems to say, "I can't read tenor clef, so I'm just going to insult the people who know more than I do, and call them elitists. And while I display this really crappy attitude for you, I'm going to project a crappy attitude onto anyone who disagrees with me. As part of that, I'm going to characterize people who attend music school as out-of-touch, snobby elites, and take a victory lap like a pigeon that knocks the chess pieces off the board."

My goodness, if that's an accurate read, that attitude sucks.

Harsh, perhaps, but am I wrong? Baileyman, please tell me I've misjudged your post and explain what you really meant.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-02-03 3:04 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]This post has been low key bugging me. It seems to adopt the derision and rejection of knowledge and expertise that is so unfortunately running rampant in the United States right now.[/quote]

I won't presume to judge baileyman (or his politics). But I am sure glad that I learned tenor clef way back in 8th or 9th grade (1950s!). I use it all the time now (mostly - but not exclusively - for "classical" music) and am very comfortable with it. It was still there in my head even after a ~25-year layoff! As Jim Scott noted, tenor clef falls really nicely on the page for trombone music.

Unfortunately, I quit music lessons before I learned alto clef (which would occasionally be useful), so struggle with that, and I sure wish that I were more comfortable with treble clef. We should all be willing to open our brains - and use them.

Kdanielsen · by **Kdanielsen** » 2025-02-03 3:12 p.m.

Honestly, one of the best things for my chop’s (not my brain, my chops) lately has been working on sight reading in treble and mezzo soprano clef (definitely not my comfort zone). Tenor clef on alto too.

If you find tenor clef challenging, working on it might have more benefits than just learning to read a new clef.

This concludes my transmission from the ivory tower of classical music school.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-02-03 4:19 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="265854" time="1738530459" user_id="160">
Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.[/quote]

This post has been low key bugging me. It seems to adopt the derision and rejection of knowledge and expertise that is so unfortunately running rampant in the United States right now.

It seems to say, "I can't read tenor clef, so I'm just going to insult the people who know more than I do, and call them elitists. And while I display this really crappy attitude for you, I'm going to project a crappy attitude onto anyone who disagrees with me. As part of that, I'm going to characterize people who attend music school as out-of-touch, snobby elites, and take a victory lap like a pigeon that knocks the chess pieces off the board."

My goodness, if that's an accurate read, that attitude sucks.

Harsh, perhaps, but am I wrong? Baileyman, please tell me I've misjudged your post and explain what you really meant.
</QUOTE>

I had that same impression

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-02-03 4:54 p.m.

Firstly, I know baileyman fairly well. He has played with me in several "senior dance bands" (we play Stocks from the 1930s through the 1960s for dances at Senior Centers). He's a good player, but focused on the dance band / big band / stage band literature which generally sits in bass clef.

I became a convert when my first teacher, a trumpet player in one of the television studio bands, showed me how to transpose using the clefs. This was as a lower classman in High School. I never went to conservatory, deciding to pursue Engineering instead (Engineers mostly eat better than professional musicians). I believe in reading all the clefs and the transposed treble. Only transposed clef I haven't had much success with is Db (piccolo).

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2025-02-03 5:19 p.m.

Tenor clef would be the best choice if it was the ONLY clef, but otherwise I think it's just worse than bass or alto. Bass and alto is the perfect two-clef pair, IMO. The C in the bass clef is easily readable at one ledger line below the alto clef, and there is a ton of trombone rep that never goes below that note. And if it does, you can use bass clef. Those Russians got it right.

That said, I see bass and tenor on my stand often, and alto occasionally. For my own recordings I use bass, tenor, alto, treble, and sometimes mezzo-soprano in my trombone parts.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2025-02-03 6:02 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?"[/quote]

I never went to music school. I picked up tenor clef in like a week in middle school; it's not that hard and it comes with some convenient side effects for transpositions and covering parts for other instruments.

Anyways, tenor clef has in fact been in common use for trombone parts for a long time and I don't think it's particularly snobbish to believe that part of being a competent musician is the ability to read music written for your own primary instrument.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2025-02-03 9:30 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]I picked up tenor clef in like a week in middle school[/quote]

I picked up tenor clef very quickly in high school. But I've been struggling with alto clef for decades. Learning something with an adult brain is VERY different.

dwcarder · by **dwcarder** » 2025-02-03 10:36 p.m.

I had to play in tenor clef in high school; as I remember it was for pit orchestra. I could double (poorly) on trumpet, so in my mind I just played my trombone in trumpet mode, treating it as Bb treble clef.

Being able to read Bb treble clef is still pretty handy, and tenor clef is equivalent enough to get you there.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-02-03 11:41 p.m.

Probably way off topic, but those of us that were around when Betamax was an option for video recording remember that it was actually a superior format to VHS. It was pushed aside because some large companies had already committed to VHS. Maybe it is relevant?

Jim Scott

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-02-04 3:41 a.m.

I think the comparison is actually quite good. Tenor clef does fit the trombone better than bass clef. It seems to have fallen out of favor because the people creating trombone parts were more comfortable with bass clef and like VHS taking over the videocassette format, bass clef took over the trombone in most uses.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-02-04 4:13 a.m.

The same happened to C clefs for singers. Soprano, alto and tenor clef make a whole lot of sense for a lot of choral music, yet they were replaced by treble clef across the board.

Also, early on, a lot of trombone parts were even in baritone clef (F on the 3rd line), and bass trombone parts in sub-bass clef (F on the 5th line).

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2025-02-04 5:13 a.m.

I didnt go to music school so I bow to the superior knowledge of those who know better than me (and that is not displaying any attitude thats acknowledgement of a fact!). I grew up in the brass band world where only 1 clef exists for the tenor player that of course is treble. You can go your whole life and repetoire without ever using another clef or being challenged to do so. I know many many players who do and have done just that. I've spent the last 50 years playing mainly bass so the bass clef is actually where I am at home. I have on rare occassions come across tenor clef when playing tenor trombone in a pit orchestra. When that has happened I do what Doug Elliot does only in reverse I use the treble clef to transpose to tenor.

That all said and with my lack of technical knowledge (I have a degree in Geography) so I can authoritively say the 'geography' of the tenor clef is the most logical of all clefs for the tenor trombone. I cant be counting how many leger lines that is to that note way up there!... so speaketh a bass trombone player!!

Kindest... Doug

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2025-02-04 5:20 a.m.

And to illustrate the truth of my opening statement in my previous post - when Maximillian wrote "Also, early on, a lot of trombone parts were even in baritone clef (F on the 3rd line), and bass trombone parts in sub-bass clef (F on the 5th line)" I didnt even know there was a sub-bass clef! Such a sheltered life I have led. Maximillian next time I'm racing up the A1 passing Bremen and thinking about 'The Musicians of Bremen' I'll book a lesson, not on Baroque trombone but on clefs!!... Best Doug

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-02-04 10:42 a.m.

I'm heading off to a Paleobones rehearsal today, where I will be faced with bass, tenor, and alto clefs. Darn, now I'm really wishing I'd gone to music school! OTOH, I learned all those clefs without music school, so...

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]Probably way off topic, but those of us that were around when Betamax was an option for video recording remember that it was actually a superior format to VHS. It was pushed aside because some large companies had already committed to VHS. Maybe it is relevant?

Jim Scott[/quote]

I don't know if this is true, but I remember hearing that VHS won the battle with Betamax because at the time most pornography was available on VHS only, and that was enough to tip the scales. Not sure what the metaphor is for tenor clef on that, but it's bound to be an obscene one... :D

soseggnchips · by **soseggnchips** » 2025-02-04 12:54 p.m.

I'd love to see more tenor (or alto) clef in big band charts. Or treble clef. Or 8va markings. It's no fun sightreading a running line when it's all on 4/5 ledger lines.

It's a very dull way to practice, but there are websites that will generate random sheet music, with the ability to specify exactly what notes you want included. That way you can start off with 2 or 3 notes and spend as long as it takes for them to get really familiar, then expand from there. I've used that approach to get up to speed on doubles and it works quite well.

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2025-02-04 4:26 p.m.

I will admit to practicing real music on occasion, to keep the mind and chops functional. Usual practice horn is my trumpet, I’ll use it for bass or treble clef stuff. In my iPad music files, I do have tenor clef basics I mess around with on occasion. A majority of my playing is chord sheets for the service, no matter which of my 5 horns, and the appropriate for the horn music for ensembles. Includes trumpet, French horn, trombone, euph, and tuba. Have never needed tenor clef for any (of my very few) outside the church playing times, but one never knows what the future holds. I’ve always held that as long as I’m living, I should be learning. Or as my dad used to say, using my head for something other than a hat rack.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2025-02-04 5:02 p.m.

[quote="baileyman"]Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.[/quote]

Last month I played the National Tour of MJ The Musical. Bass clef/tenor clef/alto clef. Does show up when you least expect it.

marccromme · by **marccromme** » 2025-02-04 5:19 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Also, early on, a lot of trombone parts were even in baritone clef (F on the 3rd line), and bass trombone parts in sub-bass clef (F on the 5th line).[/quote]

Yes, mostly Renaissance and early Barok music in faksimile prints. I have played many of these during my younger years, and one gets pretty fast good at it. Also medical music writen only with four lines in the system.

Think of it as infiniely many lines invisible on which notes to play are attached, and the placement of a C or F clef indicates which lines of these are visible.

Simple example, piano sheet music has commonly 11visible lines, of which 5 are right hand in violin clef, 5 in left hand F bass clef, and 1 is the ledger line between both systems.

The piano ledger line between systems is actually the same C as the C alto or tenor clef indicates, so the 5 lines from an alto clef with C on the middle line are actually the 2 lowest right hand lInes, the ledger line, and the highest 2 left hand lines.

Now, the meaning of the notes in the infinite line system does not change, but which bunch of lines you see, so to speak, the window you see through, does change in the differnt clef placements.

Practice will make it fluent. ..

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-02-04 6:12 p.m.

[quote="marccromme"]

Think of it as infiniely many lines invisible on which notes to play are attached, and the placement of a C or F clef indicates which lines of these are visible.

(...)

Now, the meaning of the notes in the infinite line system does not change, but which bunch of lines you see, so to speak, the window you see through, does change in the differnt clef placements.[/quote]

That is exactly how I think of it! Although I also do realise that this way of thinking does not work for everyone.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2025-02-04 9:23 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]Tenor clef would be the best choice if it was the ONLY clef, but otherwise I think it's just worse than bass or alto. Bass and alto is the perfect two-clef pair, IMO.[/quote]

I would vote for concert pitch treble and bass clef, like the piano players use. I never need to venture above that top line F, and rarely below the bass clef G. (If you wrote v.a.b., then never below the bass clef.) No need to add or subtract flats and sharps either, and if you have perfect pitch the note you're playing is the note you see.

But I think it depends a lot on how the individual brain works. Clefs don't seem hard to me. As an engineer, it's just a math transformation. For some people they make no sense, and will never make any sense. And I think we underestimate how complicated the process is between seeing ink on a page and producing a tone. There are a lot of intermediate steps.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2025-02-05 12:50 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="265854" time="1738530459" user_id="160">
Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.[/quote]

This post has been low key bugging me. It seems to adopt the derision and rejection of knowledge and expertise that is so unfortunately running rampant in the United States right now.

It seems to say, "I can't read tenor clef, so I'm just going to insult the people who know more than I do, and call them elitists. And while I display this really crappy attitude for you, I'm going to project a crappy attitude onto anyone who disagrees with me. As part of that, I'm going to characterize people who attend music school as out-of-touch, snobby elites, and take a victory lap like a pigeon that knocks the chess pieces off the board."

My goodness, if that's an accurate read, that attitude sucks.

Harsh, perhaps, but am I wrong? Baileyman, please tell me I've misjudged your post and explain what you really meant.
</QUOTE>

My own understanding of what I wrote is equivalent to, "It's an historical error to migrate tenor into commercial forms, but the deed is done."

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2025-02-05 12:59 p.m.

You could have just written that rather than add all the other commentary.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-02-05 6:12 p.m.

One historical advantage of the tenor clef, as remarked on by Praetorius, was that bass trombones were typically pitched a fifth lower than the tenor (tenor in A, bass in D), just as their respective clefs are also a fifth apart. Therefore a tenor player not familiar with positions in D could easily pick up a bass, imagine a C clef (with one flat removed or sharp added) instead of the bass part's F clef, and use their usual tenor positions.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2025-02-05 6:57 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]One historical advantage of the tenor clef, as remarked on by Praetorius, was that bass trombones were typically pitched a fifth lower than the tenor (tenor in A, bass in D), just as their respective clefs are also a fifth apart. Therefore a tenor player not familiar with positions in D could easily pick up a bass, imagine a C clef (with one flat removed or sharp added) instead of the bass part's F clef, and use their usual tenor positions.[/quote]

That makes sense, sort of, but I think it makes a big assumption.

For some people it's easy to do a mental hack like that, imagining a clef and using tenor positions. I think he assumed everyone's brain worked like his. For me that would be impossible.

pbone3b · by **pbone3b** » 2025-04-09 10:44 a.m.

When I get a Tenor Sax part or a Trumpet part put in front of me, I'm glad I learned Tenor cleff. That's what sent me back to Blazevich as an adult pro player. Being comfortable reading a Bb treble part is hugely valuable.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2025-04-09 12:16 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="CalgaryTbone" post_id="265982" time="1738644086" user_id="3262">
Probably way off topic, but those of us that were around when Betamax was an option for video recording remember that it was actually a superior format to VHS. It was pushed aside because some large companies had already committed to VHS. Maybe it is relevant?

Jim Scott[/quote]

I don't know if this is true, but I remember hearing that VHS won the battle with Betamax because at the time most pornography was available on VHS only, and that was enough to tip the scales. Not sure what the metaphor is for tenor clef on that, but it's bound to be an obscene one... :D
</QUOTE>

VHS had at least two big plusses: Much lower prices for the players and longer running-times for the tapes.

A standard two-hour VHS tape could hold most movies, while a Betamax tape was limited to one hour at the outset.

Histories vary as to whether the porn thing was a factor at all. I had my first VHS deck for ten years before i found out there were stores renting it.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2025-04-09 12:38 p.m.

Well, the first time I visited a rental store, I certainly remember a curtain covering a doorway that led to a room where children weren't allowed. I could only speculate what was in there.

VJOFan · by **VJOFan** » 2025-04-12 3:29 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]alto clef to fake harmony parts[/quote]

Trying to get my head around this. I can only make it work mentally if I am thinking of a Bb transposed treble clef part. (Or a tenor clef part) In that case reading in alto clef puts me a third away.

Am I missing how it would work with bass clef or concert pitch treble?

HappyAmateur · by **HappyAmateur** » 2025-04-21 9:39 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]If your goal is finding lots of popular music to play, I'd also suggest learning to read treble clef "down an octave" where :trebleclef: :space3: is played :bassclef: :line6:

Note that the relationship of treble and bass clefs (particularly in piano music) is that :bassclef: :line6: is :trebleclef: :line0: (Middle C). Some parts I've seen have some high notes written in embedded treble clef -- something much more common in cello music. In the bass clef 1st trombone part of Brahms' "Academic Festival Overture" there is a high A and a high C both written in treble clef inside a normal bass clef part.[/quote]In my (truly ignorant) opinion, treble clef an octave down splits the difference between tenor and alto clefs and therefore could easily replace both.

It is ironic that tenor clef is named for the tenor vocal part, but tenor vocalists in classical choral works replaced tenor clef with treble an octave down ages ago. Trombones/cellos never made that same shift. Perhaps this is due to the ubiquitous use of piano in choral instruction/rehearsal driving a change to something more common/familiar, whereas trombones/cellos were perhaps happy to stick with what they knew rather than fix what wasn't broken?

Bass clef an octave up is also an interesting alternative to eliminate ledger lines (and standard notation for the bass recorder).

I feel like ledger lines could still be very effectively reduced if all music only had treble and bass clefs and the use of 8va/8vb, and such a move would simplify things for both composers and performers (once established as standard; the transition would likely be frustrating for many people).

Of course, I say all this selfishly as a new trombonist who already knows treble and bass clef and doesn't want to make my middle-aged brain learn another new thing (a new instrument alone is nearly more than I can handle). So I'll freely admit that if I had already been an established trombone player I'd be quite upset if composers decided to suddenly switch tenor to treble 8vb.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-04-21 11:55 p.m.

The "C" clef is as I understand it, technically one clef. It's a moveable "C" clef - where you have the two backwards C's come together to show the location of middle C. A few places that were common at one time were given names - Soprano clef with the C on the bottom line; Mezzo-soprano on the second line; Alto on the third line; Tenor on the fourth line; Baritone on the top line. Alto and Tenor are the only ones that have survived into modern times (except perhaps in modern performances of early music). Just to make it even more confusing, I have seen examples of "C" clef, where the two C's come together on a space (as an indication of treble down an octave, for instance). Also, I remember in Ear Training class at Juilliard, where we were presented with examples of "G" (treble) and "F" (bass) clefs that could be moved to place their named notes in different spots (actual examples of Bach chorales with the "G" clef actually down one line (the tighter circle in the clef indication twists around "G" - in this case it was the bottom line). There was another way of indicating Baritone clef by moving the "F" clef down one line.

The thing is that Tenor clef isn't something new - it's actually quite old and is one of the 2 survivors (along with Alto) of a very old notation, as are Treble and Bass clefs as we know them. Tenor clef is also very prominent in music for Bassoon and Cello. That alone is a good reason to learn it, since a lot of great solo music that we like to play comes from those instruments. The orchestral music that was referred to in a previous post (Brahms) that used Bass and Treble is just a bad edition - the original is in Alto all the way through the part. A couple of French composers did that (sparingly), but Treble wasn't a clef that you would see with any regularity (except in B flat transposition in Brass Band) until more recently. I think that's partly a jazz influence (fake books are in treble clef), and partly that some arrangers aren't well versed in C clefs.

Personally, I like connecting with the original notation and thereby connecting with the history of the instrument. I also like using clefs to be able to practice music in different registers and keys. If you don't learn at least the 3 clefs we see regularly, you limit the music you can practice and perform. That's OK if you're not ambitious, but then don't complain if it shows up on your stand and you can't read it.

Jim Scott

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-04-22 12:14 a.m.

Jim, I've seen that embedded treble clef in some cello music as well.

I agree that the bass clef part for Academic Festival is a "cop out" part, only made worse by the embedded treble clef.

When I was a kid taking lessons from a guy who played in the NBC Symphony he passingly mentioned use of treble, bass, and 5 C clefs as a way to transpose. He was a trumpeter and transposing parts was pretty routine (unless you had a closet full of trumpets in different keys). Also, as a backing for lots of soloists they might want a tune in a different key to better fit their range. Being able to transpose quickly and on the fly was a survival skill. Wish I had learned this when I was still a kid.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-04-22 1:50 a.m.

When I was in school, the trumpet players studying with Vacchianno all worked out of the Bass clef Arbans to use Bass clef as a way of reading E flat and E natural transpositions, as well as reading F parts as one step away, in the same way they would read C parts on a B flat instrument. Meanwhile, all the trombone players were using the trumpet book, reading it like tenor and then also reading it in alto and bass. We would also have to play in the adjacent key (B flat etudes in B natural for instance).

At a summer gig I used to play in upstate NY, one of my friends there was a clarinet player who was active in the Early Music scene on Renaissance woodwinds. We would occasionally play duets, and he would just say "what's a good key for you?" before we would play a tune. He could just see his part in any key - sort of like a giant movable C clef, where he could place the C anywhere he wanted. I was stuck with the 3 clefs I knew. It was humbling. Once in a while, he'd say can we do this key instead, because this shawm doesn't have a good F sharp, or something to that effect.

We were playing an opera earlier this season where the French horns had 7 different transpositions in their parts. I feel pretty lucky that we only have 3 clefs that come up in any regular way. It's good for your brain to learn to read in different ways, but I'm glad that anytime I wish to venture out of the usual 3 clefs, it's for fun or to jump in to help out on a missing part - not something that is part of my usual job description where I would be expected to play it perfectly.

JS

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-04-22 11:42 a.m.

I dunno. I like tenor clef. It fits best for the most notes trombones usually are required to play.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-04-22 1:55 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I dunno. I like tenor clef. It fits best for the most notes trombones usually are required to play.[/quote]

This is true.

Transposed treble clef as used by mid 19th century brass instruments put the useful range of all the instruments between 2 ledger lines down and two ledger lines up (much like we see for trombone parts in tenor clef).

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-04-22 4:16 p.m.

Yup, all clefs are movable (or better yet, it's just one bit gamut of notes, and the clef just tells you which lines are visible). G on the first line (often called French violin clef) is not uncommon in old prints or manuscripts. C on the first line was the standard clef for a choral soprano line until the 19th century. Just open any mid (even late) 1800s Breitkopf score of Mozart, Beethoven, etc. It's a mandatory clef for conductors and collaborative pianists to be fluent with.

A lot of early trombone music is in baritone clef. In fact the very earliest solo piece specifically for trombone switches back and forth between bass and baritone clefs. Those low bass trombone parts in Gabrieli polychoral music? Sub-bass clef (F on the top line). Sometimes also shown by the Gamma clef (which indicates Gamma ut, which is the G at the bottom of the grand staff) alone or together with an F clef.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]At a summer gig I used to play in upstate NY, one of my friends there was a clarinet player who was active in the Early Music scene on Renaissance woodwinds. We would occasionally play duets, and he would just say "what's a good key for you?" before we would play a tune. He could just see his part in any key - sort of like a giant movable C clef, where he could place the C anywhere he wanted. I was stuck with the 3 clefs I knew. It was humbling. Once in a while, he'd say can we do this key instead, because this shawm doesn't have a good F sharp, or something to that effect.[/quote]

Playing with shawms is one of the most common reason I have to sight-transpose. We typically need to play anything with them either up a step or up a fifth, although sometimes also weirder transpositions. The ability to use any clef, octave-displaced, comes in very handy then.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-04-22 7:08 p.m.

It could have been crumhorn (sp?) as well. He had a whole trunkful of instruments with him, even though there was no place for them to be used at this gig - just staying in shape. This was a talented guy - one evening when we were playing some duets, he suggested switching instruments. I forget what I ended up playing, but whatever it was, I had to play in a single octave in the tonic key for it - I could vaguely recall recorder fingerings for "the scale" from the 4th grade (or thereabouts). He had never played trombone - I got him to get the 2nd, 3rd and 4th harmonics in first and explained the slide positions, and he managed to play an easy duet - I don't remember much about my efforts on his instrument - alcohol may have been involved.

JS

u_2ndTrom · by **u_2ndTrom** » 2025-05-22 5:23 a.m.

From my perspective - a former 2nd trom in a brass band, who has taken a recess from it for longer than I wanted, and currently also a cello student - learning tenor clef opens up a lot of music. It's only a fifth above the bass clef, so that shouldn't be a problem.

There are - or were - I haven't checked recently - some small collections of exercises and tunes written in tenor clef for trombone, freely available on the 'Net.And yes, as a brass band trombonist, I have seen my fair share of tenor clef parts. It is possible to transpose on the fly, and that's what they told us to do, so to keep the music flowing, that's what I did. But I'd advise you to learn to read it natively if you want to play orchestral parts. But then, that's just me - I learnt trombone froma brass band player, as a Bb instrument, while at the same time I was working through A New Tune A Day, which uses the bass clef. I can now get muddled by simple switches from C Bass Clef to Bb Treble Clef - it takes me a while to adjust.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-05-22 6:55 a.m.

[quote="2ndTrom"]...

There are - or were - I haven't checked recently - some small collections of exercises and tunes written in tenor clef for trombone, freely available on the 'Net.And yes, as a brass band trombonist, I have seen my fair share of tenor clef parts. It is possible to transpose on the fly, and that's what they told us to do, so to keep the music flowing, that's what I did. But I'd advise you to learn to read it natively if you want to play orchestral parts. But then, that's just me - I learnt trombone froma brass band player, as a Bb instrument, while at the same time I was working through A New Tune A Day, which uses the bass clef. I can now get muddled by simple switches from C Bass Clef to Bb Treble Clef - it takes me a while to adjust.[/quote]

Simone Mantia's "The Trombone Virtuoso" is available on IMSLP (for free) and contains a section with exercises in alto, tenor, and transposing treble clefs. Exercises are much easier than Blazhevich (which is what I learned alto and tenor clef from).

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]It could have been crumhorn (sp?) as well. He had a whole trunkful of instruments with him, even though there was no place for them to be used at this gig - just staying in shape. This was a talented guy - one evening when we were playing some duets, he suggested switching instruments. I forget what I ended up playing, but whatever it was, I had to play in a single octave in the tonic key for it - I could vaguely recall recorder fingerings for "the scale" from the 4th grade (or thereabouts). He had never played trombone - I got him to get the 2nd, 3rd and 4th harmonics in first and explained the slide positions, and he managed to play an easy duet - I don't remember much about my efforts on his instrument - alcohol may have been involved.

JS[/quote]

I think alcohol can be very useful when dealing with these instruments :evil:

brycefegley · by **brycefegley** » 2025-05-22 7:48 p.m.

My extremely limited experience with tenor clef is it shows up in sections that include notes that are too high (above) :tenorclef: :line6: for me to play with any facility anyway, doubling the challenge. Bach's D-major 6th Cello Suite is a good recent example I was reading through and abandoned.

But I definitely second the practicality of knowing the clef for helping to transpose B-flat trumpet parts on jazz charts, which my late uncle clued me into years ago.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-05-22 8:14 p.m.

[quote="brycefegley"]My extremely limited experience with tenor clef is it shows up in sections that include notes that are too high for me to play with any facility anyway, doubling the challenge.

But I definitely second the practicality of knowing the clef for helping to transpose B-flat trumpet parts on jazz charts, which my late uncle clued me into years ago.[/quote]

If you continue to play trombone, you will have much more than "limited experience" with tenor clef. It's mandatory to know it for some literature - if you're not facile with tenor clef, you won't be invited back.

And yes, it's also incidentally handy to read Bb treble parts.

Time to head back to the practice room to work on your range and your clef studies.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2025-05-25 3:29 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]

This is true.

Transposed treble clef as used by mid 19th century brass instruments put the useful range of all the instruments between 2 ledger lines down and two ledger lines up (much like we see for trombone parts in tenor clef).[/quote]

Couldn’t agree more, tenor or Bb transposed treble sit nicely.

Incidentally this got me thinking about tuba. I used to play symphonic and solo repertoires in bass clef on a BBb tuba, then go to brass band practice and read transposed Bb treble clef. So much easier not to count all the ledger lines. Why is most tuba music written in plain bass clef and not with 8vb like double bass?

Being able to read both clefs did come in very handy when I was asked to play on a CD recording with my old youth symphony orchestra (having practically retired from tuba and sold my BBb). The loaner instrument they had for me was an EEb tuba and all parts were in bass clef. If I hadn’t had the experience of playing valves in Bb transposing treble clef I’d have been properly stuck, having never even picked up an EEb tuba before the start of the rehearsal. The simple transposition trick saved my ass.

Grotewobbo · by **Grotewobbo** » 2025-07-19 4:44 p.m.

I started on trumpet and then taught myself trombone. I figured out that the trumpet valve combinations translate exactly to the trombone slide positions. For example the low D and C# on a trumpet are normally the only 2 notes you play with valve combo 1+3 and 1+2+3. On trombone you usually only use position 6 and 7 for the low D and C#. So as trombone is basically the same as trumpet but an octave lower I started to play and read it in Bb as well. It's not a C instrument but somehow you should learn it in C Bass or something. I get a headache reading in bass C because regular general notes are already placed on the 5th line of your music paper. I get dislexic reading all those notes above the 5th line and it's so unnecessary. Trombone is not a C instrument, it's a tenor instrument in Bb. So just write it down the same way as a tenor saxophone.

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2025-07-20 8:38 a.m.

This is from a fairly thorough Wikipedia article on clefs. Missing is the "male-voice" F clef: set on the top line of what looks like a treble clef but sounding an octave lower.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2025-07-20 10:40 a.m.

I much prefer tenor to bass clef. When I write, I almost always have the first part in tenor clef but also make a bass clef version so that players can choose, if I’m not the one playing first.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-07-20 10:44 a.m.

Wow. There are some really esoteric clefs there.

One that seems to be missing is a tenor voice clef symbol that is the G clef in its normal position but with a small 8 attached to the bottom of the symbol. I've only seen it used in choral music for Tenor voice.

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2025-07-20 1:04 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]One that seems to be missing is a tenor voice clef symbol that is the G clef in its normal position but with a small 8 attached to the bottom of the symbol. I've only seen it used in choral music for Tenor voice.[/quote]

Yes, that is equivalent to the male-voice F clef I mentioned. There's also the G ("treble") clef with an 8 attached to the top of the symbol—sounding an octave higher. Used for soprano, sopranino, and higher-sounding recorders, &c.

For the garklein (a recorder sounding two octaves above the written notes of a standard G clef), the notation 15 above the symbol is sometimes used. Why “15” instead of “16”? I’ll let the Google AI agent answer that in typical clear and well-presented style.

AI Overview

To play notes two octaves higher on the treble clef, you would use the notation 15ma, which stands for

quindicesima (Italian for fifteenth), not 16ma.

Here's the reasoning behind using "15" instead of "16":

1. Interval Counting: In traditional Western music theory, intervals are typically counted inclusively, meaning both the starting and ending notes are counted as part of the interval.

2. Octaves as a reference: An octave spans eight notes when counting inclusively (for example, C to the next C).

3. Calculating two octaves: If you consider the interval of two octaves, you're essentially going up 7 scale steps, then another 7 scale steps, which totals 14 scale steps. However, when counting the interval inclusively, you count the starting note as "1," then count up 14 more notes to reach the note two octaves higher. This results in a total of 15 notes, making it a "fifteenth". For example, if you start on C (1), going up two octaves leads you to the next C (8), and then another C (15).

4. Established Terminology: The term quindicesima (fifteenth) for a double octave is ingrained in musical tradition and established terminology.

In essence, the choice of 15ma rather than 16ma reflects the traditional way of counting musical intervals in a diatonic scale, where both the starting and ending notes are included in the count, rather than a direct mathematical multiplication of 8 by 2 to get 16.

.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-07-22 12:30 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Wow. There are some really esoteric clefs there.

One that seems to be missing is a tenor voice clef symbol that is the G clef in its normal position but with a small 8 attached to the bottom of the symbol. I've only seen it used in choral music for Tenor voice.[/quote]

All of those we encounter somewhat to very frequently in my line of work (plus the modern vocal tenor G clef you mention, which is one of the most common we have to read because of modern editions of vocal music). The "French violin clef" is found in music from everywhere, not just France, but it's especially common there. But you'll frequently see violin parts of German music that momentarily switch to that clef to reduce ledger lines for short passages.

All the C clefs are extremely common, because original vocal music uses them, all the time. Baritone clef is extremely common, and a lot of original trombone parts use it. Subbass clef is less common, but not entirely uncommon either. A lot of those low bass trombone parts in polychoral music use it.

There's an additional clef that I mentioned earlier in this thread, the Gamma clef, indicated by the Greek letter Gamma, used to show the position of the low G two octaves below the treble clef G. That clef can be on the second line (usually together with an F clef on the fifth line) indicating a "subbass clef", or can be on the third or even fourth line (theoretically could even be on the fifth line but don't remember ever seeing that).

Another note about clefs: for quite some time in the late Renaissance and baroque periods, certain clefs in vocal music implied automatic transposition. The "natural" clefs, soprano (G2), alto (C3), tenor (C4) and bass (F4), usually imply no transposition. The "high clefs", treble (G2), mezzo (C2), alto (C3) [when assigned to a tenor part] and baritone C5 or F3, imply a downward transposition by a fourth or fifth depending on the key signature. However, instruments without voices can, and generally should, play those high clef parts at pitch – the clefs are even labeled by certain authors as "per strumenti". You'll even find music where the basso continuo part is notated a fourth or fifth lower than the vocal parts, clearly showing that the singers should transpose. One author (Viadana), in a piece for solo soprano notated in treble clef with the continuo notated a fourth lower, then adds a note at the end of the continuo part saying "if instead of being sung, the solo part is played by a cornetto, then the organist must transpose a fourth higher". This whole question of clefs indicating transposition has caused (and somehow still causes) a lot of debate and confusion, in particular with regards to the proper pitch level for some sections of Monteverdi's famous Vespers of 1610, even though the primary sources are all really clear about it.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2025-07-28 11:39 a.m.

In written languages there's a thing where... as more symbols are deployed, the longer it takes to master the craft and/or the fewer people who do master it.

Compare the Mesopotamian's cuneiform with its 1000+ symbols that only a priestly scribe class could use, to the Mediterranean cultures who settled on alphabets with only a few dozen symbols (thank you, Phoenicians*), simple enough that fairly ordinary people could write letters to their aunts and leave graffiti as they traveled.

Some number of symbols are needed to avoid ambiguity but there is a circumstance where adding more symbols doesn't mean more will get done.

* yes, I know.

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