King 2B vs Bach 6
- frankgalante
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Apr 10, 2023
I'm im the search for a small bore tenor, for playing lead jazz on my 1940s style big band, i found out that Tommy Dorsey played a 2B and Glenn Miller Played a Bach Model 6.
Which os the difference between the two of them and which of them is better?
Which os the difference between the two of them and which of them is better?
- NotSkilledHere
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Aug 07, 2024
i dont know about better because it depends on what you are searching for and what each horn has.
there's the 2B and the Liberty which are more or less the same horns just single bore (Liberty) vs dual bore (2B). dual bore is what gave the 2B its name aka 2 Bores. so Liberty and 2B horns effectively share the same bell sections and have interchangeable slides. Originally there was the Liberty and then later they offered them with dual bores which led to the name 2B. that's my understanding of the two horns. There is the 2B Liberty which is a different model of the 2B later on if i understand correctly. If you measure a 2B example and somehow see that it is a single bore horn, dont be surprised. there have been examples with single smaller bore slides and examples with single larger bore slides that have escaped the factory before but not often.
and then theres the Bach 6 which had 7 variations: i, ii, iii, iv, v, vi, and vii. My understanding of how these were different were that they were different combinations of bell tapers, tuning slides, and goosenecks. I personally have no idea what measurements coincide with which variation and of course the LT versions which is just a swap from normal to LT slide. they all play differently so it depends on what you are looking for. I believe the 6vii was the most popular variation and the most open playing of the bunch. the 6iv was also popular i believe.
both the 2B/Liberty and the Bach 6 variations were all printed into oblivion because they were both so popular back in the day so you'll see them all over the place and for quite good prices too. both species are fantastic horns. I think the general consensus is that the Bach 6's are warmer and darker in a sort of unexpected but good way.
there's the 2B and the Liberty which are more or less the same horns just single bore (Liberty) vs dual bore (2B). dual bore is what gave the 2B its name aka 2 Bores. so Liberty and 2B horns effectively share the same bell sections and have interchangeable slides. Originally there was the Liberty and then later they offered them with dual bores which led to the name 2B. that's my understanding of the two horns. There is the 2B Liberty which is a different model of the 2B later on if i understand correctly. If you measure a 2B example and somehow see that it is a single bore horn, dont be surprised. there have been examples with single smaller bore slides and examples with single larger bore slides that have escaped the factory before but not often.
and then theres the Bach 6 which had 7 variations: i, ii, iii, iv, v, vi, and vii. My understanding of how these were different were that they were different combinations of bell tapers, tuning slides, and goosenecks. I personally have no idea what measurements coincide with which variation and of course the LT versions which is just a swap from normal to LT slide. they all play differently so it depends on what you are looking for. I believe the 6vii was the most popular variation and the most open playing of the bunch. the 6iv was also popular i believe.
both the 2B/Liberty and the Bach 6 variations were all printed into oblivion because they were both so popular back in the day so you'll see them all over the place and for quite good prices too. both species are fantastic horns. I think the general consensus is that the Bach 6's are warmer and darker in a sort of unexpected but good way.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
About the Kings: The Liberty was introduced in the mid 1930s as a single bore instrument. Later in that decade the 2B version was introduced which was called 2B Liberty. Soon the single bore version was phased out and until the 1990s all 2Bs were dual bore although the Liberty designation was dropped some time around the 1970s. In the 1990s a single bore version of the 2B was created for Jiggs Whigham. I'm not sure how such horns are identified. Both dual bore and Jiggs versions of the 2B are still being made today.
There also was a Conn about this size called 4H. In my avatar I'm playing a Martin Committee, also this size. All used in different Big Bands by different great players.
There also was a Conn about this size called 4H. In my avatar I'm playing a Martin Committee, also this size. All used in different Big Bands by different great players.
- frankgalante
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Apr 10, 2023
[quote="NotSkilledHere"]i dont know about better because it depends on what you are searching for and what each horn has.
there's the 2B and the Liberty which are more or less the same horns just single bore (Liberty) vs dual bore (2B). dual bore is what gave the 2B its name aka 2 Bores. so Liberty and 2B horns effectively share the same bell sections and have interchangeable slides. Originally there was the Liberty and then later they offered them with dual bores which led to the name 2B. that's my understanding of the two horns. There is the 2B Liberty which is a different model of the 2B later on if i understand correctly. If you measure a 2B example and somehow see that it is a single bore horn, dont be surprised. there have been examples with single smaller bore slides and examples with single larger bore slides that have escaped the factory before but not often.
and then theres the Bach 6 which had 7 variations: i, ii, iii, iv, v, vi, and vii. My understanding of how these were different were that they were different combinations of bell tapers, tuning slides, and goosenecks. I personally have no idea what measurements coincide with which variation and of course the LT versions which is just a swap from normal to LT slide. they all play differently so it depends on what you are looking for. I believe the 6vii was the most popular variation and the most open playing of the bunch. the 6iv was also popular i believe.
both the 2B/Liberty and the Bach 6 variations were all printed into oblivion because they were both so popular back in the day so you'll see them all over the place and for quite good prices too. both species are fantastic horns. I think the general consensus is that the Bach 6's are warmer and darker in a sort of unexpected but good way.[/quote]
Thanks for the very detailed response!
Do you think a Bach 6 is too warm for lead work? Is the 2B better for playing 1st chair and upper range?
there's the 2B and the Liberty which are more or less the same horns just single bore (Liberty) vs dual bore (2B). dual bore is what gave the 2B its name aka 2 Bores. so Liberty and 2B horns effectively share the same bell sections and have interchangeable slides. Originally there was the Liberty and then later they offered them with dual bores which led to the name 2B. that's my understanding of the two horns. There is the 2B Liberty which is a different model of the 2B later on if i understand correctly. If you measure a 2B example and somehow see that it is a single bore horn, dont be surprised. there have been examples with single smaller bore slides and examples with single larger bore slides that have escaped the factory before but not often.
and then theres the Bach 6 which had 7 variations: i, ii, iii, iv, v, vi, and vii. My understanding of how these were different were that they were different combinations of bell tapers, tuning slides, and goosenecks. I personally have no idea what measurements coincide with which variation and of course the LT versions which is just a swap from normal to LT slide. they all play differently so it depends on what you are looking for. I believe the 6vii was the most popular variation and the most open playing of the bunch. the 6iv was also popular i believe.
both the 2B/Liberty and the Bach 6 variations were all printed into oblivion because they were both so popular back in the day so you'll see them all over the place and for quite good prices too. both species are fantastic horns. I think the general consensus is that the Bach 6's are warmer and darker in a sort of unexpected but good way.[/quote]
Thanks for the very detailed response!
Do you think a Bach 6 is too warm for lead work? Is the 2B better for playing 1st chair and upper range?
- NotSkilledHere
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Aug 07, 2024
both are fantastic for lead work. depends on what you want and are looking for. I think the Bach 6 you will absolutely have to play yourself to see if you want because of the differences in the variations and if that specific one is for you.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="frankgalante"]
Do you think a Bach 6 is too warm for lead work? Is the 2B better for playing 1st chair and upper range?[/quote]
It's definitely not "too warm for lead work." I've played lead in professional big bands with a Bach 16MG, a much larger horn, and it has always -- from the late 1970s until today -- been an excellent choice. The Bach 6 is not as warm as the 16M. It should be a fantastic choice for lead, so long as you don't lean on it too hard to the point where it starts to break up (which is my feeling about both the 2B and the 6, or any horn with that small of a bore).
You can't go wrong with either horn. The 6 being somewhat warmer is a fantastic sound to have on lead IMHO.
Do you think a Bach 6 is too warm for lead work? Is the 2B better for playing 1st chair and upper range?[/quote]
It's definitely not "too warm for lead work." I've played lead in professional big bands with a Bach 16MG, a much larger horn, and it has always -- from the late 1970s until today -- been an excellent choice. The Bach 6 is not as warm as the 16M. It should be a fantastic choice for lead, so long as you don't lean on it too hard to the point where it starts to break up (which is my feeling about both the 2B and the 6, or any horn with that small of a bore).
You can't go wrong with either horn. The 6 being somewhat warmer is a fantastic sound to have on lead IMHO.
- frankgalante
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Apr 10, 2023
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="frankgalante" post_id="267033" time="1739646014" user_id="16502">
Do you think a Bach 6 is too warm for lead work? Is the 2B better for playing 1st chair and upper range?[/quote]
It's definitely not "too warm for lead work." I've played lead in professional big bands with a Bach 16MG, a much larger horn, and it has always -- from the late 1970s until today -- been an excellent choice. The Bach 6 is not as warm as the 16M. It should be a fantastic choice for lead, so long as you don't lean on it too hard to the point where it starts to break up (which is my feeling about both the 2B and the 6, or any horn with that small of a bore).
You can't go wrong with either horn. The 6 being somewhat warmer is a fantastic sound to have on lead IMHO.
</QUOTE>
Do you think that the Bach 6 could also handle Dorsey Ballads or is the 7 inch bell too small for it?
Do you think a Bach 6 is too warm for lead work? Is the 2B better for playing 1st chair and upper range?[/quote]
It's definitely not "too warm for lead work." I've played lead in professional big bands with a Bach 16MG, a much larger horn, and it has always -- from the late 1970s until today -- been an excellent choice. The Bach 6 is not as warm as the 16M. It should be a fantastic choice for lead, so long as you don't lean on it too hard to the point where it starts to break up (which is my feeling about both the 2B and the 6, or any horn with that small of a bore).
You can't go wrong with either horn. The 6 being somewhat warmer is a fantastic sound to have on lead IMHO.
</QUOTE>
Do you think that the Bach 6 could also handle Dorsey Ballads or is the 7 inch bell too small for it?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
You could play Dorsey ballads on a 10½ inch bass trombone if you have the chops for it.
Buddy Morrow took over the Dorsey band and played the ballads on a Holton 65 (Hah! Another brand to consider.).
Dorsey also had specially modified King 2Bs -- not just off-the-shelf ones.
Don't get too far into the weeds about this. Get a trombone and play it. Even a Conn Director would work. You just have to spend the time to be proficient.
Buddy Morrow took over the Dorsey band and played the ballads on a Holton 65 (Hah! Another brand to consider.).
Dorsey also had specially modified King 2Bs -- not just off-the-shelf ones.
Don't get too far into the weeds about this. Get a trombone and play it. Even a Conn Director would work. You just have to spend the time to be proficient.
- NotSkilledHere
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Aug 07, 2024
I agree with Bruce. You may be digging a hole in the wrong direction. The more you dig this, the more horns you are going to have to consider because another artist plays a different horn and sounds good too. They are all great horns and have had historically significant players. One is not better than the other.
You ask whether a 2B or a Bach 6. I would say that's like comparing different kinds of apples. You are asking a small bore jazzy horn to play jazzy. One is not better than the other, even at the same job. a bigger part of the song would be your interpretation of it. Whether you play darker or warmer or more commercial and brighter, i think the more important part is you and how you choose to paint the picture, not so much the brush you are using so long as the brush is already in the right ballpark.
You ask whether a 2B or a Bach 6. I would say that's like comparing different kinds of apples. You are asking a small bore jazzy horn to play jazzy. One is not better than the other, even at the same job. a bigger part of the song would be your interpretation of it. Whether you play darker or warmer or more commercial and brighter, i think the more important part is you and how you choose to paint the picture, not so much the brush you are using so long as the brush is already in the right ballpark.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="frankgalante"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="267051" time="1739652828" user_id="16498">
You can't go wrong with either horn. The 6 being somewhat warmer is a fantastic sound to have on lead IMHO.[/quote]
Do you think that the Bach 6 could also handle Dorsey Ballads or is the 7 inch bell too small for it?
</QUOTE>
You are asking the wrong person. LOL! As many here are weary of hearing me say, I believe everything important happens before the mouthpiece. I think equipment choices are for comfort and tone profile.
Frankly, I can make Dorsey ballads sound fantastic on any trombone. That's because I happen to be good at playing Dorsey ballads. And I'm good at Dorsey ballads because I made a conscious effort to study and become good at them. The choice of horn doesn't matter, any decent horn will do. I can even make them sound good on my bass trombone, like Bruce alluded to. (I gave it a try just now, to see. LOL!)
IMHO, you pick the horn you feel more comfortable with and generally like the sound of, and learn to play the stuffing out of it.
Now, there are lots of folks here who disagree with me and believe that you have to have just the right horn for everything you play. There are folks with different horns for every purpose, and they choose which one to play based on the music on their stand that day. I'm not one of those folks. I think both the King 2B and the Bach 6 are fantastic professional level instruments and you can't go wrong with either one. If thousands of great players can play those horns and sound fantastic, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to use either one and sound fantastic, too. It's all about you, not the horn.
You can't go wrong with either horn. The 6 being somewhat warmer is a fantastic sound to have on lead IMHO.[/quote]
Do you think that the Bach 6 could also handle Dorsey Ballads or is the 7 inch bell too small for it?
</QUOTE>
You are asking the wrong person. LOL! As many here are weary of hearing me say, I believe everything important happens before the mouthpiece. I think equipment choices are for comfort and tone profile.
Frankly, I can make Dorsey ballads sound fantastic on any trombone. That's because I happen to be good at playing Dorsey ballads. And I'm good at Dorsey ballads because I made a conscious effort to study and become good at them. The choice of horn doesn't matter, any decent horn will do. I can even make them sound good on my bass trombone, like Bruce alluded to. (I gave it a try just now, to see. LOL!)
IMHO, you pick the horn you feel more comfortable with and generally like the sound of, and learn to play the stuffing out of it.
Now, there are lots of folks here who disagree with me and believe that you have to have just the right horn for everything you play. There are folks with different horns for every purpose, and they choose which one to play based on the music on their stand that day. I'm not one of those folks. I think both the King 2B and the Bach 6 are fantastic professional level instruments and you can't go wrong with either one. If thousands of great players can play those horns and sound fantastic, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to use either one and sound fantastic, too. It's all about you, not the horn.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I recently sold a NY 6vii for a friend who bought it new. I had the good fortune to spend some time on it. It felt much bigger than a 485 bore, and it sounded like what I think of as a Dixieland horn. When I played it, it added a 4th to my range on top (usually double f, with the 6 I could get a real pitch at the Bb above that).
The 2b has a great following, but NY 6s are a lot more plentiful than you think. That's part of why they're so cheap. They tend to sell in the $900-1300 range.
The 2b has a great following, but NY 6s are a lot more plentiful than you think. That's part of why they're so cheap. They tend to sell in the $900-1300 range.
- Ramardpenovi
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Nov 15, 2023
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="frankgalante" post_id="267093" time="1739680616" user_id="16502">
Do you think that the Bach 6 could also handle Dorsey Ballads or is the 7 inch bell too small for it?[/quote]
You are asking the wrong person. LOL! As many here are weary of hearing me say, I believe everything important happens before the mouthpiece. I think equipment choices are for comfort and tone profile.
Frankly, I can make Dorsey ballads sound fantastic on any trombone. That's because I happen to be good at playing Dorsey ballads. And I'm good at Dorsey ballads because I made a conscious effort to study and become good at them. The choice of horn doesn't matter, any decent horn will do. I can even make them sound good on my bass trombone, like Bruce alluded to. (I gave it a try just now, to see. LOL!)
IMHO, you pick the horn you feel more comfortable with and generally like the sound of, and learn to play the stuffing out of it.
Now, there are lots of folks here who disagree with me and believe that you have to have just the right horn for everything you play. There are folks with different horns for every purpose, and they choose which one to play based on the music on their stand that day. I'm not one of those folks. I think both the King 2B and the Bach 6 are fantastic professional level instruments and you can't go wrong with either one. If thousands of great players can play those horns and sound fantastic, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to use either one and sound fantastic, too. It's all about you, not the horn.
</QUOTE>
Are the Bachs 6 too small for lead playing in more modern, Baise/Ellington big bands?
Do you think that the Bach 6 could also handle Dorsey Ballads or is the 7 inch bell too small for it?[/quote]
You are asking the wrong person. LOL! As many here are weary of hearing me say, I believe everything important happens before the mouthpiece. I think equipment choices are for comfort and tone profile.
Frankly, I can make Dorsey ballads sound fantastic on any trombone. That's because I happen to be good at playing Dorsey ballads. And I'm good at Dorsey ballads because I made a conscious effort to study and become good at them. The choice of horn doesn't matter, any decent horn will do. I can even make them sound good on my bass trombone, like Bruce alluded to. (I gave it a try just now, to see. LOL!)
IMHO, you pick the horn you feel more comfortable with and generally like the sound of, and learn to play the stuffing out of it.
Now, there are lots of folks here who disagree with me and believe that you have to have just the right horn for everything you play. There are folks with different horns for every purpose, and they choose which one to play based on the music on their stand that day. I'm not one of those folks. I think both the King 2B and the Bach 6 are fantastic professional level instruments and you can't go wrong with either one. If thousands of great players can play those horns and sound fantastic, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to use either one and sound fantastic, too. It's all about you, not the horn.
</QUOTE>
Are the Bachs 6 too small for lead playing in more modern, Baise/Ellington big bands?
- Rusty
- Posts: 470
- Joined: Jun 01, 2018
Here’s a bit more of that info about the different variants of Bach small bores for anyone interested. I owned a 3 digit serial Bach 6 from 1936 that was great, played much bigger than you’d expect and had an upper register on rails. In the end I preferred the blow of my .508 Shires.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Ramardpenovi"]
Are the Bachs 6 too small for lead playing in more modern, Baise/Ellington big bands?[/quote]
No. But you do have to be mindful about leaning on them too hard, so they don't break up and start to sound brittle. Same with the 2B, though.
Are the Bachs 6 too small for lead playing in more modern, Baise/Ellington big bands?[/quote]
No. But you do have to be mindful about leaning on them too hard, so they don't break up and start to sound brittle. Same with the 2B, though.
- Ramardpenovi
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Nov 15, 2023
[quote="Rusty"]Here’s a bit more of that info about the different variants of Bach small bores for anyone interested. I owned a 3 digit serial Bach 6 from 1936 that was great, played much bigger than you’d expect and had an upper register on rails. In the end I preferred the blow of my .508 Shires.[/quote]
What does it mean when it says "least desirable models"??
There still a Bach Trombome
What does it mean when it says "least desirable models"??
There still a Bach Trombome
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
King 2b or a Bach 6? I think both are real good horns for lead and ballads. If you want something slight more open try a 2b+. It's one of my favorites.
/Tom
/Tom
- frankgalante
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Apr 10, 2023
Maybe the III and V are smaller and better for lead, but i m not so sure how the size of the bell throat and tuning slide impacts on entonation
- Fgal409
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Mar 30, 2023
[quote="Rusty"]Here’s a bit more of that info about the different variants of Bach small bores for anyone interested. I owned a 3 digit serial Bach 6 from 1936 that was great, played much bigger than you’d expect and had an upper register on rails. In the end I preferred the blow of my .508 Shires.[/quote]
I don't know if the note says, "dont buy those variations" or its just a slight advise, but maybe Doug or someone who knows more can light this up
I don't know if the note says, "dont buy those variations" or its just a slight advise, but maybe Doug or someone who knows more can light this up