Who knew? Olds Alto….in F?!

UrbanaDave · 2025-02-15 8:15 a.m.

Check it out. Anybody ever hear of anyone using one of these? Would love to hear John L’s thoughts on this. I’m only guessing that this is not already a thread :lol:

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text=" https://reverb.com/item/86845721-f-e-o ... t=86845721"> https://reverb.com/item/86845721-f-e-olds-f-15?utm_source=rev-ios-app&utm_medium=ios-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=86845721</LINK_TEXT>
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_1557.jpeg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~IMG_1557.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2025-02-15 8:19 a.m.

[quote="UrbanaDave"]I’m only guessing that this is not already a thread[/quote]

You never know. :)

<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?t=14774">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=14774</LINK_TEXT>

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2025-02-15 8:22 a.m.

Yeah I've heard about this one before:

http://www.itsabear.com/horns/F-15/F-15.html

I think it'd be useful for sight reading French horn parts with. You could just read the part like you'd read trumpet music (tenor clef with changes to accidentals and the key signature).

I do this with the Mozart horn concertos (3 of which are in Eb transposed notation), but on my Eb alto.

UrbanaDave · by **UrbanaDave** » 2025-02-15 8:41 a.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="UrbanaDave" post_id="266992" time="1739625307" user_id="17847">
I’m only guessing that this is not already a thread[/quote]

You never know. :)

<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?t=14774">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=14774</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>
Haha! It seems JohnL and the TC gang HAS already spoken! :good:

Thanks for the additional insight, Harrison!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-02-15 9:19 a.m.

One of my colleagues in my orchestra has had one for several decades. Note that it uses an alto horn style mouthpiece.

Mamaposaune · by **Mamaposaune** » 2025-02-15 11:55 a.m.

I don't know of anyone who's played one, but remember one that used to hang on the wall at Dillon's years ago.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2025-02-15 12:06 p.m.

I borrowed one of these for a little while. It was a difficult time in my life.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-02-15 12:11 p.m.

I tried one at Dillon's in NJ some years ago - it was very small, and difficult to play coming from the tenor trombone. Interesting in some ways. There was also an E flat alto from Olds there once, with a big bell and bore - kind of a cool sound as I remember, but also a bit hard to adjust to.

Jim Scott

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-02-15 12:13 p.m.

I saw a Holton F alto for sale recently.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2025-02-15 12:16 p.m.

I wish altos in F were more common. Laetzsch no longer shows their two F alto models (SL-730 and SL-740) on their website, so unless you can still custom order them, that makes the only new F alto I know of the Helmut Voigt HV-A4.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2025-02-15 1:36 p.m.

[quote="Harrison's link to http://www.itsabear.com/horns/F-15/F-15.html"]Here are a couple images showing the Olds No. F alongside a No. 44 and a No. 3 tenor trombone mouthpiece, along with an image of the No. F alongside a replica made for me by Kanstul Music. These horns have a reputation for not working well with tenor trombone mouthpieces, even small ones with cut-down shanks. This has been a problem for people who (like myself) purchase an F-15 without the original mouthpiece, but now that Kanstul has a digital scan on file, they can produce replicas for anyone who needs one.[/quote]

I wonder if the digital scan survived Kanstul's dissolution.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2025-02-15 2:59 p.m.

James New has all of the Kanstul scans on file and has been willing to produce some for me as of a few years ago.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2025-02-15 3:05 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]James New has all of the Kanstul scans on file and has been willing to produce some for me as of a few years ago.[/quote]

That's potentially a gold mine of weirder stuff. Kanstul made a lot of non-standard instruments for customers and as prototypes, and I'm sure they scanned a lot of interesting stuff too. I'd love to know what scans are in there. With the scans in hand, you could take them to, say, O'Malley and pay them to make new mandrels based on the scans if you were really invested in something.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2025-02-15 3:13 p.m.

I've seen U.S. made altos in F before, though none relatively recent in construction. I know people who have them as well, and play them. All depends on what you like, but for most people who play them Eb ended up being a better option, so that is what gets made today.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2025-02-15 4:55 p.m.

Personally, I feel that altos in D and F are at least as viable as alto in Eb.

Alto in D because it makes alto clef read like tenor clef, and a lot of alto rep is in D on top of it (e.g. Mendelssohn 5, Mozart Requiem).

Alto in F because it makes the extra-high things like the high F in Beethoven 5 even more secure, because it's a more convenient key than Eb in general (especially in the orchestra, where sharps are more common than flats), and because it's an octave match for F contra just like Bb soprano, Bb tenor, and Bb contra.

Not to say that there's anything wrong with Eb, but it does seem odd that F and D haven't been explored more.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2025-02-15 5:16 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]James New has all of the Kanstul scans on file and has been willing to produce some for me as of a few years ago.[/quote]

I think Vennture has all the Kanstul scans in their software to browse, as well. Not sure if they'd put that one in there since it's a weird category. But they have even mellophone mpcs so ...

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2025-02-15 9:42 p.m.

Doug Elliott has owned (maybe still owns) one of these and can make a shank that fits its rather odd receiver.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]There was also an E flat alto from Olds there once, with a big bell and bore - kind of a cool sound as I remember, but also a bit hard to adjust to.[/quote]
That one lives in with me now.

http://itsabear.com/horns/EbAlto/eb_alto.html

I've got two Olds F altos (one Fullerton, one Los Angeles), plus the TIS Eb. I used the Fullerton F in one orchestral concert to play exactly one note.

If someone were to ask me about a mouthpiece for Olds F alto, I'd send 'em to Doug Elliott. He's played one (I think he still has it) and can furnish something that fits both the horn and your face.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2025-02-16 8:36 a.m.

Much of the talk about usefulness has mentioned the key.

But if an alto in F sounded good, better than a cheap Chinese one, then relearning positions is not a big deal.

Finetales · 2025-02-16 10:45 a.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]Much of the talk about usefulness has mentioned the key.

But if an alto in F sounded good, better than a cheap Chinese one, then relearning positions is not a big deal.[/quote]

I'm sure the Laetzsch F altos sound just as good as the Ebs, which are some of the best altos out there. Laetzsch wouldn't build an inferior instrument.

The Olds F alto is a different beast, designed as a student model for young kids who can't reach all the positions on a tenor yet. It's very trumpety. So it's not really fair to judge the potential of an F alto based on the Olds.

That's the thing about altos in other keys. We don't really know what they sound like since nobody plays on one, since nobody makes one, since nobody plays one. It's a very chicken-and-egg situation. (Same with a modern C tenor or G bass.) So all we can really discuss is the potential benefits of the key. Though I do remember at least one forum member extending their 36H to D and keeping it that way.

One of the few mad science projects I have John Sandhagen doing for me right now is an F alto with a valve. Once that's done, we'll have one more data point to go on, especially as I have a great Eb alto (also with a valve) to compare it to.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2025-02-16 10:49 a.m.

[quote="JohnL"]That one lives in with me now.

http://itsabear.com/horns/EbAlto/eb_alto.html

….[/quote]
I got outbid on this one back a few decades ago…. It is in a better place.

Back on topic, I only ever played an Olds F very briefly once. And without a fitting mouthpiece. Just going to note that compared to the Yamaha alto I was familiar with at the time I was very confused. I’d love to try again with a little more wisdom.

Cheers,

Andy

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-02-16 12:28 p.m.

Good to find out that large Olds alto found a home! Also, as far as altos in D, I heard that John Marcellus used his old Conn 35H (tuning in the slide) in D with slide tuning extended fully and a sketchy 7th position. The 35H I owned was towards the low side in E flat, and with the bell closer to 4th position, I could see why he found that to be a good option.

Jim Scott

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-02-16 1:27 p.m.

Stewbones tunes his Conn 36H in D (with A attachment). Same reason as given above using Tenor Clef positions.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2025-02-17 8:44 a.m.

[quote="Finetales"]

One of the few mad science projects I have John Sandhagen doing for me right now is an F alto with a valve. Once that's done, we'll have one more data point to go on, especially as I have a great Eb alto (also with a valve) to compare it to.[/quote]

Interesting. Is the valve in C or D? (or could be just a trill valve I suppose)

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2025-02-17 4:34 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="267133" time="1739720752" user_id="136">

One of the few mad science projects I have John Sandhagen doing for me right now is an F alto with a valve. Once that's done, we'll have one more data point to go on, especially as I have a great Eb alto (also with a valve) to compare it to.[/quote]

Interesting. Is the valve in C or D? (or could be just a trill valve I suppose)
</QUOTE>

The valve on the F alto will be in D, to match the C valve on my Eb alto.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2025-02-17 7:08 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]One of the few mad science projects I have John Sandhagen doing for me right now is an F alto with a valve.[/quote]
OOH! OOH! :hi: :hi:

Bartók gliss in the pedal register! :idea:

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-02-17 8:09 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="267243" time="1739799880" user_id="211">

Interesting. Is the valve in C or D? (or could be just a trill valve I suppose)[/quote]

The valve on the F alto will be in D, to match the C valve on my Eb alto.
</QUOTE>

Valve on an Eb alto is in Bb. When tuned to D it's in A. So the valve on an F should be in C.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2025-02-17 9:03 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Valve on an Eb alto is in Bb. When tuned to D it's in A. So the valve on an F should be in C.[/quote]

Valve on an Eb alto CAN be in Bb. But can be other things too. Pretty sure I know what my alto's valve is tuned to.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-02-17 9:31 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="267358" time="1739840994" user_id="53">
Valve on an Eb alto is in Bb. When tuned to D it's in A. So the valve on an F should be in C.[/quote]

Valve on an Eb alto CAN be in Bb. But can be other things too. Pretty sure I know what my alto's valve is tuned to.
</QUOTE>
My alto's valve is in Bb with an A pull (it's a Conn 36H). If I pull the tuning slide like Stewbones does to put it in D, the valve will be in A with an Ab pull.

Most altos I have seen with a valve are in Eb with a Bb valve. This mirrors the "quartventil" used on tenor and bass trombones. If you wanted to modify your alto to have a valve in some other pitch, more power to you.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2025-02-17 10:28 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="267321" time="1739828095" user_id="136">

The valve on the F alto will be in D, to match the C valve on my Eb alto.[/quote]

Valve on an Eb alto is in Bb. When tuned to D it's in A. So the valve on an F should be in C.
</QUOTE>
I wondered about that for a moment, but then I remembered who was talking and just figured that Tiffany had decided she wanted a minor third valve rather than the usual quartventil.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2025-02-18 12:20 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Most altos I have seen with a valve are in Eb with a Bb valve. This mirrors the "quartventil" used on tenor and bass trombones. If you wanted to modify your alto to have a valve in some other pitch, more power to you.[/quote]

My alto trombone HAS a C valve, not a Bb valve. It turns out this is why I said that my Eb alto has a C valve. I'm having my F alto made with a D valve, not a C valve. Believe it or not, this is why I said that my F alto will have a D valve.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2025-02-18 8:26 a.m.

What is the reasoning for having a C valve on an Eb alto (or D on an F alto)? I guess it'd be a G valve on tenor? I'm trying to wrap my head around it but I'm so used to a quart valve that the advantages don't seem to add up. I'm sure there are legit reasons though!

(Before Sesquitone posts another chart, please know that that chart has never once been something my brain can interpret :???:)

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2025-02-18 8:45 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]What is the reasoning for having a C valve on an Eb alto (or D on an F alto)? I guess it'd be a G valve on tenor? I'm trying to wrap my head around it but I'm so used to a quart valve that the advantages don't seem to add up. I'm sure there are legit reasons though!

(Before Sesquitone posts another chart, please know that that chart has never once been something my brain can interpret :???:)[/quote]

I'm kind of hoping he does. I've downloaded his tenor chart, and I can sort of adapt it to alto, but it makes my brain hurt.

I'm pretty sure Sesquitone has a Bb tenor with G valve, C tenor with A valve, and Eb alto with C valve.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2025-02-18 9:28 a.m.

Well, my Eb horn has a Bb valve AND a Cb valve.

(I’ll wait a minute to let y’all figure out why….)

Cheers,

Andy

marccromme · by **marccromme** » 2025-02-18 2:11 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]The valve on the F alto will be in D, to match the C valve on my Eb alto.[/quote]

Makes much sense to have a valve in a minor third. Moves 4th position to 1st. And 7th moves to the middle of the slide. Plenty of good shortcuts there.

Finetales · 2025-02-18 2:38 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]What is the reasoning for having a C valve on an Eb alto (or D on an F alto)? I guess it'd be a G valve on tenor? I'm trying to wrap my head around it but I'm so used to a quart valve that the advantages don't seem to add up. I'm sure there are legit reasons though![/quote]

I'll try to explain the best I can, now that I have a lot of practical experience with G valves (and the C valve on my alto). I promise I get back to alto at the end!

Basically, if you don't need the lowest notes of the F valve, the G valve allows for more agility in the staff. Think about the relations to the open horn. Obviously, the F valve can play 6th position notes in 1st, and 7th position notes in 2nd. That means that its usefulness ends at C in the staff, as while you can play F and A in the staff in 1st on the valve, the default positions for those notes are not 6th, but 1st and 2nd respectively. So you don't gain any useful alternates by using the valve, making it unnecessary. And the open notes speak better than the valve notes anyway, as you are using less tubing to get there.

Meanwhile, a G valve gets you 4th position notes in 1st, and 5th position notes in 2nd. That means B at the top of the staff, and G/D/Gb/Db in the staff. 4th and 5th are the only positions for those notes without a valve, so using the G valve on those notes uses the same amount of tubing as using 4th or 5th, so they play just as easily as the open positions. This means they are not only possible but viable alternates, just like playing low C and B in 1st and 2nd on the F valve. So, while the F valve's usefulness ends at C in the staff, the G valve has nearly a full octave more, ending at B at the top of the staff.

Having your 4th and 5th position notes available in 1st and 2nd allows for a TON more agility in that register. Above C in the staff, there is no note farther out than 5th, so with the G valve the farthest you have to go starting at Db in the staff is 3rd. This means that you can have the same agility as the open horn does from C above the staff upward, or put another way you can be just as agile an octave down. And having these options doesn't just mean that you can stay in 1st-3rd, but that you have a lot more options for fast passages all over the slide. Think about that nasty descending 16th-note scale in Dvorak 8. With a G valve you could use a pattern that's essentially just going back and forth on the slide (4-3-T1-2-4-T2-2-T1), instead of slamming the slide back and forth from 5th to 2nd to 4th to make the run. And that's far from the only option. You could also do 4-3-4-T3-4-5-T4-4 for minimal slide movement. And so on.

You of course still get low C/F and B/E on the G valve, they are just in the middle of the slide instead of at the top. With the G valve your lowest note is low D in 7th, which is really only one note short of the F valve. (Unless you're playing a 70-series bass trombone, where the slide is actually long enough for low C. But that's a discussion for another day. :lol: ) I actually recently played a gig with a G valve tenor and I ended up having to play lots of low Es and Ds. It was definitely less convenient than if I had brought along an F valve, but it was still perfectly doable.

In short: the F valve is good for the bottom of the staff and below, while the G valve is good for that AND everything in the staff. You get an entire octave more of usefulness with the valve.

Now, with that out of the way, to get back to C valve on an alto:

On alto you could argue the minor third valve makes even more sense than on tenor, as no alto rep goes low enough to actually need a Bb valve. The C valve is absolutely all you need, and the shorter alto slide means having to play low F/Bb and E/A in the middle of the slide is even less of the already-miniscule hassle it is on tenor. Being able to play C and B in the middle of the alto clef in 1st and 2nd is a really nice thing to have, and you can still play down to low G, so if you really feel like playing violin rep an octave down you can.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2025-02-18 3:21 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]Well, my Eb horn has a Bb valve AND a Cb valve.

(I’ll wait a minute to let y’all figure out why….)

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

Is this a different horn to your Eb/Bb/G tenor? If so I'd love to see pictures! I've fantasized about a 2-valve alto with the same relative tuning as F/Gb on a bass trombone for a long time.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-02-18 4:15 p.m.

The main "advantage" of having a Bb valve on alto is for when your brain goes numb and you forget the Eb fingerings. You can plug in the Bb valve and use the tenor fingerings we are more used to. That said, there is much advantage to the G valve on tenor or the C valve on alto, as Finetales points out.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2025-02-18 5:32 p.m.

Tiffany, thanks for the great response. Do you lose the lip trills you get from the Bb valve on alto (or F valve on tenor)? The main thing I use the Bb valve for on alto is to execute lip trills with, and there are quite a lot of useful ones there.

Same on tenor, but I also use the F valve for the low register

Obviously the lip trills will be different, but are they more or less useful than the Bb attachment, in your opinion?

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2025-02-18 6:23 p.m.

You have all the same lip trills available, just 2 positions further out. So I guess you'd lose any that you need 6th and 7th position for with the Bb valve, but you'd gain the 1st and 2nd position (C valve) trills not available on the Bb valve.

If the lip trills you use the Bb valve for are all in the first 5 valve positions, you still have all of them available on the C valve.

heinzgries · by **heinzgries** » 2025-02-22 4:36 p.m.

Gopp Es alto with 2 valves

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2025-02-22 8:38 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="elmsandr" post_id="267410" time="1739888923" user_id="147">
Well, my Eb horn has a Bb valve AND a Cb valve.

(I’ll wait a minute to let y’all figure out why….)

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

Is this a different horn to your Eb/Bb/G tenor? If so I'd love to see pictures! I've fantasized about a 2-valve alto with the same relative tuning as F/Gb on a bass trombone for a long time.
</QUOTE>
Same horn, just mostly finished the horn so it is playable now. Doing a warmup and some rochut stuff most days; think I’ll take it out in public this summer. I need to double check if I have enough slide, I think I want to raise the Cb valve to a C. But I don’t know if I have enough length to keep it chromatic. Though, I suppose if I lose a low E I can just not care too much.

Cheers,

Andy

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Who knew? Olds Alto….in F?!