Vanessa Fralick's encounter with Peter Ellefson

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-15 2:32 p.m.

I'm surprised this has not been posted here yet. Vanessa is now a member of the Toronto Symphony, a fantastic trombonist and brave human.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://katherineneedlemanoboist.substa ... irect=true">https://katherineneedlemanoboist.substack.com/p/my-encounter-with-peter-ellefson?r=3rksv7&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&fbclid=IwY2xjawIa5xxleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHe19op2g9FTUzZn_wy77KmCcsi21X5eeUzUQ4tXvI6TqVrGyZGvckrafbA_aem_PcErE8Z2n2Q_nvroX4hp_Q&triedRedirect=true</LINK_TEXT>

I can't sit on this information anymore. Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar need to be known so we can eradicate this type of behaviour from our industry.

In 2007, Peter Ellefson was a teacher at the Trombone Seminar where I was a 21 year old student. It was held at the University of New Mexico. At the time, and to this day, Pete was professor of trombone at Indiana University. I believe he was approximately 45 at that time. He sat down beside me on a couch at the final party, put his hand on my leg and then followed me to the bathroom when I tried to move away from him. I immediately left the party and nothing happened but he followed up with voicemails and emails where he tried to arrange to meet up with me alone in Chicago the following week, at a bar or even a hotel.

I was terrified that by rejecting him I risked damaging not only my grad school prospects but also my potential career in the orchestra world and responded politely and respectfully, acting flattered, while at the same time making it clear I was not interested in any sort of relationship.

I shared this story anonymously in a Facebook group last summer and oddly, shortly afterwards received an apology email from him – seventeen years later.

It is really scary to write this post but as he is still teaching and performing at major institutions in the USA, I write it so other young players and their teachers can be aware and on their guard.

The cringe-worthy correspondence can be seen by going to Katherine Needleman's Substack. This post is available without a paid subscription.

Speaking (inevitably) as a man who makes a significant portion of his living from teaching trombone, I can say that it was obvious as far back as 2007 that it is highly inappropriate to be drunk with students and completely unacceptable to behave like a creep to students - or to colleagues for that matter. It is now and it was then.

sungfw · by **sungfw** » 2025-02-15 2:51 p.m.

It was posted earlier but was subsequently removed.

I read the post during the brief time it was up and wholeheartedly endorse the poster’s sentiments.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2025-02-15 3:00 p.m.

Looking back on my time as a student; my professor never allowed alcohol at any gathering. Not because he didn’t drink, though I’ve still never had a beer with him, but I’m reasonably certain it was a conscious decision to avoid the appearance of issues. Very smart. Sure, I generally agree that the music has to be good OR the pay has to be good OR the hang has to be good…. Two out of three and that is a gif you fight to keep….. but we need, especially as a brass culture, to make sure that we do not confuse drinking with a good hang.

Still processing how to make this better in my sphere of influence, but just a quick thought from me here,

Andy

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2025-02-15 3:16 p.m.

Obviously you should never touch a student in a way that is awkward, and certanly not put your hand on her/his lap. If you want to be on the safe side then never socialize with your students.

You do not want to get emotional with them, because you do not need to, and you do not want them to have romantic feelings for you because it's not professional to have a relationship with a student anyway. If you notice a student is flirting with you then you should stop to teach that student, if possible. Avoid any trouble and it will not happen. That's my advice.

/Tom

Slydeguy · 2025-02-15 5:21 p.m.

Post removed

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2025-02-15 5:41 p.m.

This is so disturbing.

We have so many problems in the trombone world.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-02-15 5:48 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]This is so disturbing.

We have so many problems in the trombone world.[/quote]

Unfortunately, such behavior is not at all limited to the "trombone world.". In fact, it reaches to the Oval Office.

Joebone · by **Joebone** » 2025-02-15 5:59 p.m.

Yup. I may not get this David Mamet quote quite riight, but something to the effect of "everything is about sex, except sex, which is about power." Mamet may not be a warm, cuddly type, but this line has stuck with me, over many years.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2025-02-15 6:12 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="jacobgarchik" post_id="267066" time="1739659316" user_id="3890">
This is so disturbing.

We have so many problems in the trombone world.[/quote]

Unfortunately, such behavior is not at all limited to the "trombone world.". In fact, it reaches to the Oval Office.
</QUOTE>

Ugh, truth!

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2025-02-15 7:56 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]If you notice a student is flirting with you then you should stop to teach that student, if possible.[/quote]
If a student is engaging in inappropriate behavior towards you, it may be a sign that another person has been, at the very least, grooming them. Report it.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2025-02-15 11:16 p.m.

Upon attaining middle age, men find a magic mirror in their home that makes them appear 3X more desirable than they really are, and a set of invisible ear plugs muffle the "no" they get when testing that 3X thing out.

So i presume this is all more common than the cases we hear about.

2007... was he already married to the ~~[url=https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/12/arts/music/trump-kennedy-center-chairman.html?unlocked_article_code=1.xU4.l65-.gROKjqI5AImr&smid=url-share]~~recently fired/resigned Kennedy Center President Deborah Rutter, or is that a more recent thing?

Double plus no good choices made either way, of course.

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2025-02-16 12:05 a.m.

Thank you for posting Gabe. This is disturbing and I applaud Vanessa for sharing her story.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2025-02-16 7:12 a.m.

As trombone players we do have high standards. There are a lot of people who can not behave. Where do we start? <YOUTUBE id="o21fXqguD7U">https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o21fXqguD7U</YOUTUBE>

/Tom

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2025-02-16 7:48 a.m.

Love all this trombone talk with no religion or politics.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2025-02-16 7:51 a.m.

[quote="officermayo"]Love all this trombone talk with no religion or politics.[/quote]

Well, it's not politics this time it's sexism, but whatever, if you say it is politics ..

/Tom

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2025-02-16 7:59 a.m.

No, it started as sexism and morphed into politics.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2025-02-16 8:08 a.m.

[quote="officermayo"]No, it started as sexism and morphed into politics.[/quote]

You said it!

/Tom

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2025-02-16 8:14 a.m.

There isn’t any point in lamenting national politics here. Whether we like it or not, we dont really have any material power over society at large. We do have some degree of ability to influence within our sphere though. Even if it weren’t off topic, my fear is that pointing things like this out makes it seem impossible to affect change, when change really is possible - especially at the local level.

I’m not in an academic position or a position in the union but I know a lot of you are. It seems to me that there is a desire to have this type of activity stop - largely this is the proverbial choir being preached to. Seems to me that there is some change that can be made to introduce zero tolerance policies, remove protections for this type of behavior that people here could push for and actually make a difference.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-02-16 8:48 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]There isn’t any point in lamenting national politics here. Whether we like it or not, we dont really have any material power over society at large. We do have some degree of ability to influence within our sphere though. Even if it weren’t off topic, my fear is that pointing things like this out makes it seem impossible to affect change, when change really is possible - especially at the local level.

I’m not in an academic position or a position in the union but I know a lot of you are. It seems to me that there is a desire to have this type of activity stop - largely this is the proverbial choir being preached to. Seems to me that there is some change that can be made to introduce zero tolerance policies, remove protections for this type of behavior that people here could push for and actually make a difference.[/quote]

Some good points. We do have some power to change things especially in our own sphere.

One thing I'll say is that lots of institutions have had "zero tolerance policies" for a long time. Those policies are worthless if the people in charge choose to tolerate things, or if a culture of silence reigns, or when the institution is and has always been dominated by white men. These policies don't do much when the priority is to protect the institution, not getting justice for victims. Or when the majority of people choose to look the other way and wash their hands of the issue.

I mean I'm sure there was a lot of unease among at least some portions of the NY Phil about having to play with the two rapists. But they were nonetheless embraced with open arms by many of their colleagues, who are influential figures of the brass scene. And for all the reaction in 2024 of orchestra members, where was that outrage and the support to the victims in the FOURTEEN years between the rape and the scandal erupting? That's quite the learning curve...

It's not about setting up guardrails, it's about breaking the silence and changing the culture.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2025-02-16 9:08 a.m.

That’s what I’m suggesting though. If zero tolerance policies have tolerance they are effectively not zero tolerance policies. If instead the union were required to dump musicians with allegations against them, you’d start to see change pretty quickly I suspect.

Same goes with tenured positions in universities.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-16 10:27 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]That’s what I’m suggesting though. If zero tolerance policies have tolerance they are effectively not zero tolerance policies. If instead the union were required to dump musicians with allegations against them, you’d start to see change pretty quickly I suspect.

Same goes with tenured positions in universities.[/quote]

I'm all for zero tolerance, but you need more than allegations to fire somebody. In this case there's a written record of coercion and grooming, but I get that in many cases it's one party's word against the other's. I wish I knew what to do about that.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2025-02-16 11:27 a.m.

Maybe, although it would greatly incentivize people to not put themselves in positions where allegations could reasonably be made. Clearly a written record is not sufficient to prevent this from happening.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-16 11:40 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Maybe, although it would greatly incentivize people to not put themselves in positions where allegations could reasonably be made. Clearly a written record is not sufficient to prevent this from happening.[/quote]

But a private music lesson is almost by definition "a position where an allegation can reasonably be made." I know of schools that have instituted mandatory video recording of every lesson, but honestly I don't think that's the answer. In the Bill VerMeulen case, he had an open-door policy for lessons in which students could and regularly did observe each other's lessons, and that didn't stop him from being one of the absolutely worst offenders.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2025-02-16 11:47 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Those policies are worthless if the people in charge choose to tolerate things, or if a culture of silence reigns, or when the institution is and has always been dominated by white men. These policies don't do much when the priority is to protect the institution, not getting justice for victims. Or when the majority of people choose to look the other way and wash their hands of the issue.[/quote]

This is the last 15+ years in both the brass and jazz departments at Indiana University (where Pete taught) in a nutshell. There are a LOT of skeletons in that closet.

There aren't a ton of faculty in those departments with clean hands, and most are recent hires (Wayne Wallace, John Raymond, Brittany Lasch, etc.). Thankfully, those recent hires are wonderful people and have been changing things for the better.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-02-16 11:58 a.m.

MB wrote: “Those policies are worthless if the people in charge choose to tolerate things, or if a culture of silence reigns, or when the institution is and has always been dominated by white men.”

I was with you up until the third clause. However, if asked whether I thought such incidents would happen as often in female dominated institutions, I’d have to say no. Of course, my opinion is worthless without data. Without data, it’s just questionably informed bias. Or bad logic: it may be true that all attackers are white men but not true that all white men are attackers.

There have been tremendous efforts over the past decades to develop and implement appropriate policies. What is the appropriate standard of proof, beyond reasonable doubt or balance of probabilities? Or less? Is there a presumption of innocence or should there be a reverse onus, that is, once a complaint has been made and some evidence adduced, should the burden shift to the accused to disprove the allegations? Should processes be dealt with publicly, with transparency, or confidentially behind closed doors? What is the role of the institution in all this? Is it neutral or is it a party to the proceeding. And where do you find disinterested and impartial triers of fact?

And, in Rashomon-like fashion, maybe one never gets to the bottom of a complaint. What happened, what was said, what was meant. In any event, one of the least useful fora in which to deal with such allegations is social media.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-16 12:30 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]In any event, one of the least useful fora in which to deal with such allegations is social media.[/quote]

On the contrary, while social media is certainly problematic, in this case I think it has been a powerful force to finally make some needed cultural changes regarding the power dynamics and sexual politics in the music world.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-02-16 12:34 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="267144" time="1739725126" user_id="2999">
In any event, one of the least useful fora in which to deal with such allegations is social media.[/quote]

On the contrary, while social media is certainly problematic, in this case I think it has been a powerful force to finally make some needed cultural changes regarding the power dynamics and sexual politics in the music world.
</QUOTE>

With respect Gabe, social media is the mob with pitchforks, torches, tar, and feathers, only with keyboards.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2025-02-16 12:41 p.m.

And because of those pitchfork mobs, change has actually happened in New York and Indiana University. Good.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-16 12:45 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]With respect Gabe, social media is the mob with pitchforks, torches, tar, and feathers.[/quote]

With respect, courageous people using social media are largely responsible for finally getting multiple known sexual predators out of positions of power and influence.

I'm not saying it's all good. I and an institution I teach at have been unfairly misrepresented on social media, but in retrospect the damage done was minimal. The benefits of getting the offenses of Bill VerMeulen, Bill Pruecil, Demondrae Thurman, and others out in the open far outweigh my discomfort.

And if, in the process, I think more carefully about how I recruit students, how I program recitals, whom I ask to teach my students as guests...that also outweighs my discomfort.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-02-16 2:06 p.m.

Except I expect that only a few people posting about the events in question have any personal knowledge of what occurred. All they know is what they’ve read in social media.

I also wonder in some cases whether social media has made institutions dig in their heels or discouraged people from coming forward.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-16 2:24 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Except I expect that only a few people posting about the events in question have any personal knowledge of what occurred. All they know is what they’ve read in social media.[/quote]

In this case what was posted included written evidence. Obviously that's not always the case. But what you're describing is called amplifying, and it's a valuable form of support.

I also wonder in some cases whether social media has made institutions dig in their heels or discouraged people from coming forward.

All evidence I see points to the opposite effect. People (mostly but not exclusively women) who have been victimized are more empowered to tell their stories, and institutions that knew they had problems for decades - such as Rice University and the Cleveland Institute of Music - have finally acted. Some less public cases I'm familiar with have been acted on more quietly in the years since #MeToo.

----------------------------------

Now I'm going to get personal with something I've shared on facebook but not here.

I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I can write that in a public forum now relatively calmly, but I can still feel my heart rate go up. The first time I ever talked about it, I literally felt like I might have a heart attack, and I was a healthy young guy in my late teens. For a long time after that, every time I talked about it I felt like I might die - and it was a reasonable feeling, because nothing would ever be the same.

That's what it's like for survivors of abuse. Nobody who has gone through it talks about it lightly. That's why we MUST start from a place of believing what they say. That's not to say that an allegation on its own is enough to fire somebody from a job...but we have to start with believing the person who is telling us something that can change their lives forever.

Vanessa can now assume that every musician she comes into contact with knows her story. Anybody could bring up this painful memory to her at any time. She took a HUGE step to go public with this, even without considering the possibilities of lawsuits. She deserves our belief and our support.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2025-02-16 2:49 p.m.

Thanks for sharing that, Gabe. It's exactly why we need those social media posts- to make victims slowly feel safe enough to share their stories. I'll bet that story has been on Vanessa's mind nonstop since the New York fiasco came to light, and it took this long for her to come forward.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-02-16 2:55 p.m.

“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-16 2:58 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.[/quote]

Your point?

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-02-16 3:16 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="267173" time="1739735724" user_id="2999">
“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.[/quote]

Your point?
</QUOTE>

Speaks for itself Gabe.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-16 3:27 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="267174" time="1739735907" user_id="102">

Your point?[/quote]

Speaks for itself Gabe.
</QUOTE>

I don't think it does.

Why does it matter that it took her 18 years - including now a presumably tenured position with a major symphony - to work up the courage to speak up?

Please elucidate.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-02-16 3:32 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="267176" time="1739736970" user_id="2999">

Speaks for itself Gabe.[/quote]

I don't think it does.

Why does it matter that it took her 18 years - including now a presumably tenured position with a major symphony - to work up the courage to speak up?

Please elucidate.
</QUOTE>

I can’t explain it any better than you just have Gabe.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-16 3:41 p.m.

Still not good enough. Please tell us why it matters to you and what you think she should have done differently. Do you think she should have spoken up sooner? Do you think she should have forgotten about it and let it rest because it was so long ago?

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2025-02-16 3:50 p.m.

If something like this happened to my children, I would want them to tell me and others to get help - and also to be able to protect others in the future. Simple as that.

Gabe, thank you for sharing your part and being so open.

Of course social media has to be handled carefully in any case. But I am pretty sure the examples that went public in the last years did not take it lightly.

Also I see this as a big reminder for all of us to be very aware of our own behaviors.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2025-02-16 4:18 p.m.

Well, that's just an awful point to make.

[quote="Bach5G"]“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.[/quote]

atopper333 · by **atopper333** » 2025-02-16 6:50 p.m.

[quote="WilliamLang"]Well, that's just an awful point to make.

<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="267173" time="1739735724" user_id="2999">
“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.[/quote]
</QUOTE>

Well said and second that…it does take time for victims to speak out for a significantly varied amount of reasons. At times they have endured systematic abuse for years and finally report it, or they hold on to a single event and not disclose it for years until other trauma occurs or, like in this case, it is brought back up and reopens the original trauma.

Attitudes which pressure victims into non-disclosure are as toxic as they seem, the next usual line is to blame the victim for what happened…really hope no one goes there.

Shutting people down for their experiences is unproductive and leads to less reporting and more things kept in the dark, period. The next step in these situations should always be investigation to ensure the validity of claims, not dismissal of the victims claims or a knee jerk reaction to the potential abuser. The approach should always be measured to ensure the truth is brought forward.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2025-02-16 7:25 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="267179" time="1739737630" user_id="102">

I don't think it does.

Why does it matter that it took her 18 years - including now a presumably tenured position with a major symphony - to work up the courage to speak up?

Please elucidate.[/quote]

I can’t explain it any better than you just have Gabe.
</QUOTE>
Aka, why I would not trust you if any incident needed to be reported in an organization you are a part of.

Cmon man, say what you mean. Own it. Have the guts to type it under your alias here.

Cheers,

Andy

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2025-02-16 8:30 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.[/quote]

Say what you mean.

If you care so much about social media dolling out justice more fairly, don't hide behind your anonymous user name and by beating around the bush.

Speaking up against a powerful, well respected member of an insular community is *hard* and carries a huge risk. Our work is based on relationships almost as much as it is on playing skill - it's no wonder it took so long to come to light for fear of significant retribution.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-02-17 12:25 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]MB wrote: “Those policies are worthless if the people in charge choose to tolerate things, or if a culture of silence reigns, or when the institution is and has always been dominated by white men.”

I was with you up until the third clause. However, if asked whether I thought such incidents would happen as often in female dominated institutions, I’d have to say no. Of course, my opinion is worthless without data. Without data, it’s just questionably informed bias. Or bad logic: it may be true that all attackers are white men but not true that all white men are attackers.[/quote]

Oh here we go. The "not all men" card. We all know not every single white men is an attacker, that's not the point and it's never, ever been the point. The point is that institutions that are historically consistently dominated by white men are intrinsically discriminatory and misogynistic. Not every individual white men that's part of them, the institutions themselves. They have to be. You don't consistently exclude more than half of the population without serious unchecked biases and attitudes that, purposefully or not, are discriminatory and abusive.

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2025-02-17 3:58 a.m.

[quote="officermayo"]No, it started as sexism and morphed into politics.[/quote]

In the end everything is political.

You cannot separate human behaviour from the context it's in, nor can you deprive a human of his/her context, and the context inevitably comes down to politics because that's the definition of what politics is: context.

No context, no politics. Any context, any politics.

Simple as pie.

tromboneVan · 2025-02-17 9:33 a.m.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2025-02-17 10:15 a.m.

[quote="Digidog"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="267106" time="1739710749" user_id="12380">
No, it started as sexism and morphed into politics.[/quote]

In the end everything is political.

You cannot separate human behaviour from the context it's in, nor can you deprive a human of his/her context, and the context inevitably comes down to politics because that's the definition of what politics is: context.

No context, no politics. Any context, any politics.

Simple as pie.
</QUOTE>

I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you’re making it out to be. You’ve just asserted them to be the same.

the art or science of government

b

: the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy

c

: the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government

2

: political actions, practices, or policies

3

a

: political affairs or business

especially : competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in a government)

b

: political life especially as a principal activity or profession

c

: political activities characterized by artful and often dishonest practices

4

: the political opinions or sympathies of a person

5

a

: the total complex of relations between people living in society

b

: relations or conduct in a particular area of experience especially as seen or dealt with from a political point of view

The only definition that remotely comes close to being “context” is the fifth definition and even then, I completely disagree. You don’t have to change the aggregate relationship of society to know what happened here is wrong and to make steps to affect the change. And like I said earlier, we aren’t going to change society here, but we can change our sphere of influence.

There are things that people here could do today that would make a change. I didn’t have the time to write it up yesterday but a consortium of colleges that say, all agree to review blatant, written harassment within a short time frame or be excluded would be something that could affect change today. Colleges are majority women at the moment and if they had the ability to attend a college that was, or was not, given the gravity of the problem I can’t imagine them not going to one with such a policy in place.

You don’t need to, nor will any of us influence the aggregate per se, but the aggregate is made of up small changes like that. After all, we don’t have harassment codified in the law, its institutions turning a blind eye as noted before (ignoring blatant, written harassment with no room for interpretation).

tbdana · 2025-02-17 10:39 a.m.

It sounds like some of you still don't understand why women overwhelmingly chose the bear. And as far as institutions go, you might consider that you might be engaging in something known as "fishbowl thinking."

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-17 10:40 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="267179" time="1739737630" user_id="102">

I don't think it does.

Why does it matter that it took her 18 years - including now a presumably tenured position with a major symphony - to work up the courage to speak up?

Please elucidate.[/quote]

I can’t explain it any better than you just have Gabe.
</QUOTE>

And still crickets

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2025-02-17 10:48 a.m.

Actually, occurs to me that, for once, binding arbitration might be helpful in this circumstance. Most universities already have a code of conduct in some capacity. Adding arbitration teeth to it might be enough to actually get the document to mean something.

This is something that any of you who are professors could put through faculty senate as a proposition:

BINDING ARBITRATION AGREEMENT ON SEXUAL HARASSMENT INVESTIGATIONS

This Binding Arbitration Agreement ("Agreement") is entered into between [University Name] ("University") and the undersigned student ("Student"), collectively referred to as the "Parties." This Agreement is effective as of the date of the Student’s enrollment or re-enrollment at the University.

1. PURPOSE

The purpose of this Agreement is to establish a fair and expeditious process for addressing allegations of sexual harassment involving faculty, staff, or other university-affiliated personnel. This Agreement ensures that such matters are investigated within a defined period and, where applicable, resolved through binding arbitration.

2. DEFINITIONS

Sexual Harassment: Unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature, including but not limited to, unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal, non-verbal, or physical conduct of a sexual nature that creates a hostile or intimidating environment.

Arbitration: A legally binding dispute resolution process conducted by a neutral third-party arbitrator under the rules specified in this Agreement.

Administrative Leave: Temporary removal of an accused faculty or staff member from their duties, with or without pay, pending the outcome of an investigation and arbitration.

3. INVESTIGATION PROCEDURES

The University shall initiate a formal investigation within ten (10) business days upon receiving a written complaint from any Student regarding sexual harassment by faculty or staff.

The investigation shall be conducted by an independent investigator, external to the University, to ensure impartiality.

The investigation shall be concluded within thirty (30) business days, unless exceptional circumstances require an extension, which shall not exceed an additional fifteen (15) business days.

4. INTERIM MEASURES

Any faculty or staff member accused of sexual harassment shall be placed on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation and arbitration.

The University shall take immediate measures to prevent further interaction between the complainant and the accused during the investigation.

Any student accused of harassment will be subject to interim measures in accordance with University policies and applicable laws.

5. ARBITRATION PROCESS

If a finding of sexual harassment is contested, the matter shall proceed to binding arbitration under the rules of the American Arbitration Association (AAA) or a comparable independent arbitration service.

The arbitrator shall be selected by mutual agreement between the University and the complainant.

The arbitration hearing shall take place no later than sixty (60) business days following the conclusion of the investigation.

The arbitrator shall issue a written decision within fifteen (15) business days after the conclusion of the hearing. The decision shall be final and enforceable under applicable laws.

6. REMEDIES & SANCTIONS

If the arbitrator finds that sexual harassment occurred, the University shall impose appropriate disciplinary actions, which may include termination of employment for faculty or staff.

If the arbitrator finds that no sexual harassment occurred, the accused faculty or staff member shall be reinstated to their position, if applicable.

The University shall ensure that the complainant faces no retaliation for filing a complaint or participating in the process.

7. WAIVER OF COURT PROCEEDINGS

By signing this Agreement, the Parties agree to resolve any dispute arising from a sexual harassment allegation exclusively through the arbitration process outlined above and waive their rights to pursue litigation in a court of law, except as required by applicable federal or state laws.

8. CONFIDENTIALITY

The proceedings, evidence, and outcome of any investigation or arbitration under this Agreement shall remain confidential, except where disclosure is required by law or University policy.

9. SEVERABILITY

If any provision of this Agreement is found to be unenforceable, the remainder of the Agreement shall remain in full force and effect.

10. ACKNOWLEDGMENT & SIGNATURES

By signing below, the Student and the University acknowledge that they have read, understand, and agree to be bound by the terms of this Agreement.

Student Name: ______________________Student Signature: ___________________Date: ___________

University Representative Name: ______________________University Representative Signature: ___________________Date: ___________

glenp · by **glenp** » 2025-02-17 11:18 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Actually, occurs to me that, for once, binding arbitration might be helpful in this circumstance. Most universities already have a code of conduct in some capacity. Adding arbitration teeth to it might be enough to actually get the document to mean something.[/quote]

Matt, it seems to me that the document you shared has a few problems.

Waiver of Court Proceedings

Confidentiality

Lack of appeal process

With those issues I’m not convinced it would be enough to overcome corrupted systems.

If your answer is that the arbitrator and investigator are both neutral third parties and that the victim has a say in who they are, then I’d say that might help. But I’m not convinced it would be enough to overcome the issues present.

Additionally, I’m a firm believer that if an accusation is found to be true, it should be public knowledge. Likewise, a person who makes false accusations should be exposed. The obvious problem with that is that if the system continually fails dispense justice correctly and “protects their own” then legitimate victims are essentially abused yet again by being labeled something they are not. But I digress. That was not the main point I was trying to make.

What do you think?

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-02-17 11:21 a.m.

FYI the trend is away from binding arbitration and confidentiality for sexual harassment/assault allegations. Indeed, both the federal and several state governments in the U.S. have recently passed laws invalidating requirements for arbitration and confidentiality for these claims, precisely because those methods have so often been used to protect institutions and perpetrators at the expense of victims. So, that's probably not the way to go in 2025.

For instance, California, where I live, passed a specific law saying that any binding arbitration or confidentiality requirement for sexual harassment/assault claims involving any employer or employee is invalid and cannot be enforced. The feds have done the same thing for claims in the federal government employment context, too. That's the trend.

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2025-02-17 11:49 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]<QUOTE author="Digidog" post_id="267233" time="1739782710" user_id="4099">

In the end everything is political.

You cannot separate human behaviour from the context it's in, nor can you deprive a human of his/her context, and the context inevitably comes down to politics because that's the definition of what politics is: context.

No context, no politics. Any context, any politics.

Simple as pie.[/quote]

I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you’re making it out to be. You’ve just asserted them to be the same. </QUOTE>

I didn't assert them to be anything, I made a logical connection between them. Politics is about context, and as a human cannot be separated from his/her context, there is no behaviour without context; hence every human action can - and maybe should - be deemed political.

One reason for this, is that everybody - consciously or not - has a policy towards everybody else, and take actions according to each policy, and those policies are, by necessity, derived from each context in which the individual meets those others.

Another reason for deeming all behaviour political, is that as a person's private actions derive from a context, any change in that context from political reasons also will affect the private actions of that person, when a change in a person's context from personal reasons also provoke a change in political choices and views. There are plenty of examples on this reciprocity.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-17 12:46 p.m.

Binding arbitration went very poorly in the NY Phil case.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-02-17 12:48 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]Binding arbitration went very poorly in the NY Phil case.[/quote]

Binding arbitration is usually used to shield/protect the institution, not the complainant.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2025-02-17 12:51 p.m.

I'm sad to read all this stories. There has been so many. And maybe there is many more who are afraid to tell? Brave Vanessa Fralick! I don't think think it's easy. Nor to tell about it, but the worst must have been to experience such violence. I call it violence because it's kind of psychological violence. And for her it maybe has been hurting all this years.

Let's just be better humans? We as teachers have a big responsibility.

In a way I think it's the road to be great trombone players too. I'm thinking about the other interesting thread about how to be a great trombone player.

Leif

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-02-17 1:06 p.m.

[quote="Savio"]I'm sad to read all this stories. There has been so many. And maybe there is many more who are afraid to tell?[/quote]

I don't think there is a woman out there who doesn't have similar stories to tell, if they dared. Mostly, women learn in no uncertain terms to be gracious, to be quiet, and to endure. Failure to do that comes with crushing consequences. You don't even hear 1% of what happens to women.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2025-02-17 1:37 p.m.

As noted, normally binding arbitration is used to shield the entity, not to restrict who the institution may hire. In this case, intention is to create a contract that says the institution will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place. It's more like a three-way agreement between the institution, the student, and the faculty.

I am not a lawyer, so I wouldn't recommend literally putting exactly that document in place w/o review from an actual lawyer. If there are restrictions in place in CA, for example, then there must be some other way to essentially say that "under situation x y will happen".

It might not fix all (or perhaps even most) instances, but it might at least help with instances like this one where there appears to be written, documented records of the harassment.

If it needs additional clauses to prevent the employees from suing the entity, then that seems like it would be a good clause to add. A more rigorous appeals process and some degree of confidentiality seem like good ideas too.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2025-02-17 3:06 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Savio" post_id="267281" time="1739814710" user_id="3155">
I'm sad to read all this stories. There has been so many. And maybe there is many more who are afraid to tell?[/quote]

I don't think there is a woman out there who doesn't have similar stories to tell, if they dared. Mostly, women learn in no uncertain terms to be gracious, to be quiet, and to endure. Failure to do that comes with crushing consequences. You don't even hear 1% of what happens to women.
</QUOTE>

I believe you. And I'm so sorry. I think we older men have listen men boast about it a lot in our time. And I'm not exactly guiltless over the years.... :shuffle: :shuffle: I'm so sorry and I believe you. It just has to change. Not only in the trombone world.

Leif

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-02-17 3:24 p.m.

Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.

To Gabe’s point about binding arbitration in the NYP case, it appears that neither Muckey nor Liang will return to the orchestra. After losing the initial arbitration, the orchestra refused to re-engage them, and the Union is not contesting its decision (after a majority of NYP musicians refused to appear on stage with them). This is a relatively recent update from, I think, a reliable source:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://apnews.com/article/new-york-phi ... dd322b6fa3">https://apnews.com/article/new-york-philharmonic-sexual-misconduct-firings-cbaa502d3b0a811f86572fdd322b6fa3</LINK_TEXT>

So, to sum up, you were right, I was wrong, apologies to Ms F.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2025-02-17 3:51 p.m.

Thank you Bach5G! It's important for all of us to reconsider our way of thinking and to be able to adapt. That's part of the journey.

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2025-02-17 5:25 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.

To Gabe’s point about binding arbitration in the NYP case, it appears that neither Muckey nor Liang will return to the orchestra. After losing the initial arbitration, the orchestra refused to re-engage them, and the Union is not contesting its decision (after a majority of NYP musicians refused to appear on stage with them). This is a relatively recent update from, I think, a reliable source:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://apnews.com/article/new-york-phi ... dd322b6fa3">https://apnews.com/article/new-york-philharmonic-sexual-misconduct-firings-cbaa502d3b0a811f86572fdd322b6fa3</LINK_TEXT>

So, to sum up, you were right, I was wrong, apologies to Ms F.[/quote]

Thank you for acknowledging all this, Bach5G!

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-17 7:07 p.m.

Yes, thanks for being open to change your mind. I think all of us - especially men who've been in this business for a few decades - have had a lot to learn about this. I have my own regrets about my words and actions in the past...but show me someone who claims to have no regrets and I'll assume I'm looking at a sociopath, a liar, or both.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2025-02-17 7:50 p.m.

Thank you, Gabe, for sharing your story. I worked as a drug and alcohol counselor for nearly 12 years. I know through secondhand experience how difficult it can be to listen to or read other’s trauma—the stories of people who have been abused. Helping other people re-process their use and their trauma sometimes traumatizes the counselor. For the abused person, speaking or writing about it usually brings on symptoms experienced during the initial incident—fight, flight, freeze or fawn response. I also know how difficult it is to work through one’s own trauma that is not sexual, but still traumatic.

Too many people have a history of trauma and abuse—not just people with a substance use disorder, but too may people, period. The populations I worked with turned to substances in their attempts to dull the pain and push away the memories. Not all do that, but a great majority.

I am not surprised it took Vanessa 18 years to speak out. The experience itself makes it difficult for the abused person to describe and put into words. It affects all areas of the brain, as Gabor Maté has said, and prevents the mind from making any kind of sense of the experience.

To add to Vanessa’s pressures, there is the student-teacher relationship, the high-pressure arena of a master class, and the small community of individuals who rise to the very top of the profession. All that, and more, make it so very difficult to speak about it.

Counselors and therapists are there to help people learn to deal and cope with traumatic and abusive events, but there is a very different relationship to the person and the event when it is made public. Some of it is supportive. More often, it has been degrading and dismissive. In the past, i.e., a male-dominated culture that was too often misogynistic if not patronizing, such events were probably just as common, but rarely discussed. When brought to public attention, stories about sexual abuse usually devolved into a “he said, she said” argument.

Since people started speaking about such events—grooming, taking advantage, rape, etc.—we are hearing more stories like this. Think of the #metoo movement. One the one hand, it is disheartening and awful to hear these stories. That other humans could be so selfish about and careless towards their fellow humans is heart-breaking. On the other hand, that these kinds of stories are heard now at all testifies to the courage of the abused. The caring and compassionate side in all of us cannot help but be moved. (If you’re not moved, I ask with the greatest respect that you develop some introspection.)

So: I applaud Vanessa Fralick and others like her for speaking out. And think about—it took her 18 years to discuss it in the open. That’s a long time.

& & & & &

On a personal note, I studied with Mr. Ellefson occasionally before his time in Seattle, and prior to his time at IU. (I am aware, of course, that he contributes to TC from time to time.) Although I was never a target—I’m a white male, a population rarely victimized in this particular population—Peter is not the first teacher I’ve had who took advantage of students.

Nevertheless, I remember some positive things: He is a tough teacher who demands perfection. He taught me to keep going when playing. Don’t stop. It’s as if you’re playing for a ballet. If you make a mistake, you have to keep going. You can’t ask the dancers and the orchestra to stop and back up a few bars so you can play that lick again to get it right. He taught me that mistakes are just that, and nothing more. Don’t apologize for making a mistake—unless it was deliberate, in which case it’s not a mistake, and it needs an apology.

& & & & &

It has been a difficult weekend, reading about this and reconciling my thoughts and memories with other people’s experiences. I’m going to try to practice to bring a little peace of mind.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2025-02-17 9:39 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]As noted, normally binding arbitration is used to shield the entity, not to restrict who the institution may hire. In this case, intention is to create a contract that says the institution will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place. It's more like a three-way agreement between the institution, the student, and the faculty.[/quote]

I have two doubts about this.

Yes, the contract says they will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place, but... all the more pressure on the institution to get a finding of "no harassment".

Because... it's not easy attracting star teachers, the sort with reputations that attract exceptional students, the sort that may even actually be effective teachers, groping and harassing aside.

I don't know if the current individual counts as a star, but the student has to wonder who is perceived as more essential to the institution: the no-name student from Pawtucket or the teacher with the orchestra principal post and 25 students who enrolled because they wanted to study with HIM?

Other doubt... the student has to sign this, and sign away rights he would have otherwise had, or not be allowed to enroll? Will that even hold up? It's like a pre-nup you are made to sign right before a wedding, it's probably not valid because it was "under duress".

More energy should be put into preventing these interactions from happening. Clear training of faculty, rules limiting extra-curricular interactions between teacher and student, etc...

imsevimse · 2025-02-18 4:14 a.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="Matt K" post_id="267289" time="1739817465" user_id="48">
As noted, normally binding arbitration is used to shield the entity, not to restrict who the institution may hire. In this case, intention is to create a contract that says the institution will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place. It's more like a three-way agreement between the institution, the student, and the faculty.[/quote]
More energy should be put into preventing these interactions from happening. Clear training of faculty, rules limiting extra-curricular interactions between teacher and student, etc...
</QUOTE>
Just as I said in my first post. You do not need to socialize with your students. The private lesson situation remains a problem though. Could be all lessons should be in public or at least should be group lessons or video lessons or in rooms with walls of glass so it is impossible to hide. My workplace is like that. There is no angle in any corner of any room that can not be seen from outside, and I work as a computer programmer. I do not know why they built our particular workplace like that. It could be they want to make sure we work and not sleep at work.

/Tom

WGWTR180 · 2025-02-18 7:41 a.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="267180" time="1739737958" user_id="2999">

I can’t explain it any better than you just have Gabe.[/quote]

And still crickets
</QUOTE>

.

Geordie · by **Geordie** » 2025-02-18 7:50 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="267255" time="1739806836" user_id="102">

And still crickets[/quote]

Yup Bach5G disappeared. Not a leg or a thought to stand on.
</QUOTE>

Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:25 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑

Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2025-02-18 9:58 a.m.

[quote="Geordie"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="267398" time="1739882466" user_id="7573">

Yup Bach5G disappeared. Not a leg or a thought to stand on.[/quote]

Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:25 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑

Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.
</QUOTE>
Yes thank you. I saw this.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-02-18 12:00 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Geordie" post_id="267399" time="1739883044" user_id="265">

Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:25 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑

Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.[/quote]
Yes thank you. I saw this.
</QUOTE>

So give him a break then. This kind of thoughtful willingness to reevaluate one's position is the kind of thing we should be rewarding, not condemning.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2025-02-18 12:23 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="267412" time="1739890691" user_id="7573">

Yes thank you. I saw this.[/quote]

So give him a break then. This kind of thoughtful willingness to reevaluate one's position is the kind of thing we should be rewarding, not condemning.
</QUOTE>

Yes I clearly messed up the order when reading the posts. He and I have spoken.

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2025-02-20 4:04 p.m.

Has there been any public response from Mr. Ellefson or Mr. Alessi to this? Obviously, Mr. Alessi was not accused of anything, but his name is on the seminar.

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2025-02-20 4:58 p.m.

[quote="Mikebmiller"]Has there been any public response from Mr. Ellefson or Mr. Alessi to this? Obviously, Mr. Alessi was not accused of anything, but his name is on the seminar.[/quote]

I received an email from Mr.Ellefson right after my post, but I will not share our conversation unless I hear from him directly.

Take it as you might, but that is why I removed my post here AND on faceplant.....

Eric

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-20 5:46 p.m.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.idsnews.com/article/2025/02 ... 9_TMbsJw_A">https://www.idsnews.com/article/2025/02/jacobs-iu-trombone-inappropriate-interaction?fbclid=IwY2xjawIkj9xleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHUFZwNSOJ6k9u2QRLx69e4GF5msAumJ2ur44CFtE-NiXpn1JEB8X_9x0sg_aem_kkAmbrmVMQi59_TMbsJw_A</LINK_TEXT>

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2025-02-20 6:09 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.idsnews.com/article/2025/02 ... 9_TMbsJw_A">https://www.idsnews.com/article/2025/02/jacobs-iu-trombone-inappropriate-interaction?fbclid=IwY2xjawIkj9xleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHUFZwNSOJ6k9u2QRLx69e4GF5msAumJ2ur44CFtE-NiXpn1JEB8X_9x0sg_aem_kkAmbrmVMQi59_TMbsJw_A</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Reading through it, the whole situation is weird if I am to believe what Ellefson claims in the email he wrote. What a strangely specific claim he made.

In any case, teachers should not be going to after parties with their adult students any more than they should pursue personal relationships with them. Music students should go into the teacher-student situation knowing that musicians as a whole are weird, strange people that you should be wary of. That seems like a joke, but it's really not bad advice in the long run. If you think it's cool to be partying with someone twice your age, or who is your teacher or in a teacher role, you're not right. If you think it's cool to party with someone half your age, you're dead wrong. Get a life.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-20 6:22 p.m.

I wouldn't go so far as to say teachers shouldn't go to parties with students, as long as boundaries are respected and it's clear what kind of event it is. One of the boundaries has to be that's it's never OK to get drunk or stoned with students. End-of-semester studio parties are not at all uncommon, and they can be great events. In this case I think it was the party at the end of an intense seminar.

The problem here was not the party per se, I don't think. It was Peter's behavior at the party and then afterwards.

harrisonreed · 2025-02-20 6:47 p.m.

It might be because I'm in the military, but I disagree. You shouldn't be in a position of authority AND be friends with the people you have authority over. You can't fairly assess the performance / grade of people you are friends with, especially if you also have students you are NOT friends with. You definitely shouldn't be trying for romantic relationships with them.

Trying to pull off the friend thing outside of official functions is just asking for trouble.

What do you make of Ellefson's claim in his email about Fralick's actions that he misinterpreted? That kind of behavior is completely inappropriate, too. Again, that's if we choose to believe what he wrote.

The whole situation was messed up, as far as I'm concerned. At least it didn't go any further than it did.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-20 7:16 p.m.

Well...I question what kind of authority we actually have "over" students. It's certainly not the same thing as the military. And we're not their employers. If anything I work for my students, not the other way around.

I get that the perception and the reality are very often not the same thing. But I do think personal relationships are important.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2025-02-20 7:20 p.m.

Gabe, you have to grade them, and you can't be equally friends with all of them.

That's all I got. Also you avoided my main question about the whole situation.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-20 7:29 p.m.

It doesn't matter what Vanessa did or did not do.

She was 21. He was in his forties - actually it occurs to me that it doesn't matter how old they were - and a teacher at the seminar she was attending and a school she was probably looking at for graduate studies. He should not have put his hand on her leg, he should not have followed her into the bathroom, and he shouldn't have sent multiple emails trying to meet up with her and suggesting that they should ignore societal norms.

It was HIS responsibility not to escalate any flirtation that may or may not have happened.

atopper333 · by **atopper333** » 2025-02-20 7:30 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]Well...I question what kind of authority we actually have "over" students. It's certainly not the same thing as the military. And we're not their employers. If anything I work for my students, not the other way around.

I get that the perception and the reality are very often not the same thing. But I do think personal relationships are important.[/quote]

Any position where you can exert influence, power, or authority over another person would qualify as such in my personal opinion. In the case professor and student, the issue isn’t ‘authority’ as much as it is that there is a direct impact on the students future academic career depending upon a professor’s influence. That relationship can affect the students grades or reputation. It can create the potential for a ‘quid pro quo’ relationship in a very inappropriate way. That is why the boundaries are important.

From a leadership perspective, in a para-military setting, Sergeants have people whom they supervise, they do not employee them, but they are subordinates. In this setting, the sergeant takes care of his people, makes sure they have what they need in terms of gear, training, and necessities which makes them technically working for their people, but at the end of the day, when they are given orders, obedience is required. Building a small amount of a personal relationship does help with commitment, but there always must exist a boundary which sets supervisors apart from subordinates, which I believe is applicable in a student teacher relationship as long as that student is under the direction of that teacher.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-02-20 8:19 p.m.

Although in principle I wish I could adopt Harrison's position, I'm with Gabe here. After-parties at the end of semesters, or after workshops or concerts are always going to happen, and I would argue they are an integral part of the very important social aspect of building a career as a musician, because they are occasions to build a rapport with your future colleagues (which both your fellow students and your teachers are). Like it or not, people hire colleagues that are fun to hang out with. Nobody wants to play a tour or a week-long festival with colleagues they can't stand socially. The freelance world is not about who plays best. It's about contacts, being fun to be around in addition to being good enough for the work. Because ultimately we play better when we have a good connection with our colleagues.

Studying music is also not like in a lot of other fields, in that it is extremely common to be colleagues with your teachers at the same time you study with them. I hire my students to play with me or give out their names for projects I'm asked to recommend people for. When we're out on a professional gig and people go have dinner after rehearsal, am I supposed to not invite my colleagues because they're also my students? Or ignore them when we're out of rehearsal? Or should I not be giving them work in the first place? I have a student with whom I had already played several times on tour and become friends a couple years before she was my student. I'm not going to just pretend we're not also friends. That would be weird. Same during my own studies, I studied with someone, and after I left and went to study with her own former teacher, we became frequent colleagues and good friends. When that older teacher retired, she won the job to replace him where I was now studying, so she once again became my teacher. Was she supposed to refuse the job? Or kick me out of the school? Or pretend we didn't already know each other for five years at that point and weren't regularly playing professionally together? These kinds of situations are not at all infrequent in this field.

So, yeah, socializing with students is not really avoidable. The important part is that there be solid boundaries.

In terms of being able to grade people, I thoroughly disagree. A good teacher is not basing their teaching or their grading on whether they like their student or not, or on friendship. You grade the performance in front of you. You teach what the student needs to learn. Whether you socialize or not, your rapport with each student is going to be unique and different. That's true of any teaching, but obviously even moreso in the context of one-on-one instruction and mentorship. You just don't grade based on that, again, because you set boundaries.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2025-02-20 8:52 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]In terms of being able to grade people, I thoroughly disagree. A good teacher is not basing their teaching or their grading on whether they like their student or not, or on friendship. You grade the performance in front of you. You teach what the student needs to learn. Whether you socialize or not, your rapport with each student is going to be unique and different. That's true of any teaching, but obviously even moreso in the context of one-on-one instruction and mentorship. You just don't grade based on that, again, because you set boundaries.[/quote]

"Yes but you were friends with Steve, professor, and he got a better grade than I did. That's completely unfair. "

It's about perception, not your own assessment of your impartiality. You could be 100% correct about it, but it doesn't matter if someone sees something else.

It sucks, and I have to turn down hang outs all the time in my career field because of it. I just have friends outside my career.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2025-02-20 11:36 p.m.

trombone teaching is more like mentoring or apprenticeship in a lot of ways rather than a hierarchy. You can't ignore the two-way relationship and respect in both directions.

LeTromboniste · 2025-02-21 4:24 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="LeTromboniste" post_id="267713" time="1740100770" user_id="3038">
In terms of being able to grade people, I thoroughly disagree. A good teacher is not basing their teaching or their grading on whether they like their student or not, or on friendship. You grade the performance in front of you. You teach what the student needs to learn. Whether you socialize or not, your rapport with each student is going to be unique and different. That's true of any teaching, but obviously even moreso in the context of one-on-one instruction and mentorship. You just don't grade based on that, again, because you set boundaries.[/quote]

"Yes but you were friends with Steve, professor, and he got a better grade than I did. That's completely unfair. "

It's about perception, not your own assessment of your impartiality. You could be 100% correct about it, but it doesn't matter if someone sees something else.

It sucks, and I have to turn down hang outs all the time in my career field because of it. I just have friends outside my career.
</QUOTE>

That perception problem does exist of course and that's why it's important to have boundaries, to demonstrate fairness, be generous with your time and experience, and to constantly demonstrate that you have your students' learning and best interests at heart no matter the interpersonal dynamics and whether you get along or not. But I think some of the responsibility has to also lie on the student's shoulders, to have the maturity to understand that every relationship is different. There are some who no matter how detached you tried to be from everyone, would still find a way to see partiality and unfairness, and that's just out of my control. We also don't just give grades. Exams are typically in front of a jury of 2-4 people, and the grade is discussed with the student and explained as transparently and comprehensively as possible. What the student is doing well is highlighted, as well as avenues for improvement.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying oh yeah, let's become good friends with our students and hang out outside of school all the time. There's a difference between being friends, on the one hand, and on the other just going to have a meal all together after a class concert, or when on a professional gig together outside of the school context, doing the normal things that any colleagues on a gig routinely do like going for coffee during breaks or having some lunch or dinner together after rehearsals or concerts (if you're suggesting professionals who aren't students shouldn't do this either when on gigs, and all make sure they go eat on their own and not talk outside of rehearsal, we'll that just ain't happening. Of course they will. And as long as we do that, if I'm giving work to my students I'm going to encourage them to integrate socially in the workplace, not try push them away and isolate them). So I'm not actively becoming friends with my students and I think that's an important boundary to have. But yes, it can and does happen that you end up in a teacher-student relationship with someone you're already friends with (and then you can't just pretend that you're not), or that you have a different, friendlier relationship with someone who's studied with you for 4 years than with a new student who's been there five minutes. I think the rules you suggest would be great, but because of the nature of the field it's pretty much impossible to have them.

[quote="Burgerbob"]trombone teaching is more like mentoring or apprenticeship in a lot of ways rather than a hierarchy. You can't ignore the two-way relationship and respect in both directions.[/quote]

Exactly this. Also, I find the teaching is at its best when it's not about imparting knowledge down from a high pedestal, and more about exploring together the music, the technique, what works for you, or for them, and why. That's when I learned the best as a student, and that's when I feel my teaching is at its best now. Putting up walls and elevating oneself as some kind of higher, removed figure is not conducive to this.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-21 8:55 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="267724" time="1740112606" user_id="3131">
trombone teaching is more like mentoring or apprenticeship in a lot of ways rather than a hierarchy. You can't ignore the two-way relationship and respect in both directions.[/quote]

Exactly this. Also, I find the teaching is at its best when it's not about imparting knowledge down from a high pedestal, and more about exploring together the music, the technique, what works for you, or for them, and why. That's when I learned the best as a student, and that's when I feel my teaching is at its best now. Putting up walls and elevating oneself as some kind of higher, removed figure is not conducive to this.
</QUOTE>

YES!!!

And often that perception of the teacher as some sort of all-knowing guru who can make or break a student's career is the very dynamic that leads to abuses.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://thebarbedwire.com/2025/02/05/ho ... -students/">https://thebarbedwire.com/2025/02/05/houston-horn-player-harrassed-rice-students/</LINK_TEXT>

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2025-02-21 10:45 a.m.

If nothing else, the discourse here and the article (both sides) show the difficult position everyone is when they're a teacher of fully adult students looking to get jobs in your field, and you're trying to be their friend, and you're sometimes their colleague, and you're potentially the gatekeeper of them getting sub or temp jobs in the ensemble you're with with outside of school (not by choice but because you're literally the first chair in the group). And if you have sub par students you wouldn't give a job to no matter how likeable they are, or excellent students who have a major personality conflict with you that you'd also never hire in real life...

To say nothing of the students on the other side, dealing with teachers who abuse their position.

What could possibly go wrong? I don't envy you folks, in the education field walking that razor thin line and staying in the right side of ethics.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-02-21 11:37 a.m.

I guess I don't have such a cynical view of humanity. I like to think that teachers are professionals, and do their best to grade students according to their performance, not according to how much the teacher likes the students. And certainly this has very little connection to sexual harassment by teachers.

Is it really true that the only way a man can prevent himself from sexually harassing students is by building walls between him and them? Do we not give teachers the respect of believing that they have actual control over their own actions? Must we assume the worst of every teacher just because there are criminals and harassers in the world? Can't we expect teachers to simply act like the adults they are? Can't they be expected to teach professionally without giving all lessons in classes, or with open doors and windows, or with surveillance video cameras recording everything?

Apparently not. Apparently male teachers cannot control themselves, and other men here know it. Therefore, they must be forbidden to attend after-parties, or teach friends, or have personable relationships with their students, and we must make sure they are never alone unsupervised with a student. I guess we have to make rigid restrictive rules restricting interactions between teachers and students because if we don't then male teachers will just run around raping and groping and harassing their students.

Every woman in America has had to deal with unwanted advances by a man with a superior position of power. Most men get the message just fine and behave themselves when they learn the advance is unwelcome. But I guess music teachers can't do that, so we have to install a military-like hierarchy of command and subservience that limits communications and interactions between music students and their instructors.

Or, and hear me out on this whacky alternative, maybe we can just trust teachers to be professionals and punish the ones who aren't.

Naw, what kind of crazy talk is that???

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-21 12:13 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Or, and hear me out on this whacky alternative, maybe we can just trust teachers to be professionals and punish the ones who aren't.[/quote]

It's the second part that is finally starting to happen.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2025-02-21 12:26 p.m.

I think it's just boils down to be a good human and have some kind of moral ethics. Simply understand what's right or wrong? Our work is to teach music or trombone. Give all the students a bit of confidence, encourage, motivation and help on their way. I teach only children but still it should apply to any age. Never make the students unsure about our role. As a teacher they trust us. And we have to live up to that.

Leif

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2025-02-21 12:33 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I like to think that teachers are professionals, and do their best to grade students according to their performance, not according to how much the teacher likes the students.[/quote]
In the vast majority of cases, you'd be right But that still leaves plenty of petty tyrants, exploiters, and even predators out there. As with most such things, the policies and procedures aren't there for that vast majority, they're there to (hopefully) put some sort of check on the bad actors (as well as allowing institutions to claim "due diligence" in the event something does happen).

[quote="tbdana"]Or, and hear me out on this whacky alternative, maybe we can just trust teachers to be professionals and punish the ones who aren't.[/quote]
Unfortunately, "punishing the ones who aren't" doesn't prevent them from doing something bad. Often to someone.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-21 6:34 p.m.

I think there are ways to find a balance. At Boston University, for example, we are now required to teach in a space with a window that is uncovered. Perfectly reasonable.

And we just have to be thoughtful about what we do and how we do it. It's not really enough just to behave well; it's also important to realize that every student might not be comfortable in every situation.

For example, for a while at the camp where I teach in the summer, I was using a practice cabin for studio class and private lessons that's a little bit secluded. I thought it was good for our loud instruments to be a bit separated from others, etc. I've moved for a couple of reasons, one being the trek to get there with a tuba, distance to the rehearsals they need to get to before and after, etc., but the more important one being that I don't want any student to ever feel uncomfortable because they're alone in a cabin in the woods with some older guy they don't really know yet.<I> I know</I> I'm not going to do anything inappropriate, but that's not enough.

atopper333 · by **atopper333** » 2025-02-21 7:37 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Is it really true that the only way a man can prevent himself from sexually harassing students is by building walls between him and them? Do we not give teachers the respect of believing that they have actual control over their own actions? Must we assume the worst of every teacher just because there are criminals and harassers in the world? Can't we expect teachers to simply act like the adults they are? Can't they be expected to teach professionally without giving all lessons in classes, or with open doors and windows, or with surveillance video cameras recording everything?

Apparently not. Apparently male teachers cannot control themselves, and other men here know it. Therefore, they must be forbidden to attend after-parties, or teach friends, or have personable relationships with their students, and we must make sure they are never alone unsupervised with a student. I guess we have to make rigid restrictive rules restricting interactions between teachers and students because if we don't then male teachers will just run around raping and groping and harassing their students.
[/quote]

Don’t know if that was the intention or slightly tongue in cheek as a lot of meaning is lost in written communication, but this is the type of generalization that has brought on certain behaviors. Obliviously most can control themselves without these types of barriers. The problem lies in the fact that the ones who are engaging in inappropriate behaviors have no intention of controlling themselves. This stereotype that everyone in a given profession is a certain way. The actions of some affect the perception of the whole.

This gives way to either common sense approaches of avoiding the appearance of impropriety by approaches like GabrielRice mentioned, or creating buffers like Harrisonreed mentioned. This all depends on how sensitive to the issue the staff member is, or is dependent on the attitude and culture of the institution they are working for. Or it can lead to taking extreme measures which allow for no rapport between staff and students which can lead to a less impactful educational setting to again, avoid the appearance of impropriety.

I don’t believe defaulting to transparency is a bad thing, but like all things, there can be extremes as well.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2025-02-21 9:26 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Is it really true that the only way a man can prevent himself from sexually harassing students is by building walls between him and them?[/quote]

I'm reminded of a bit I read about the late-19th Century composer Ethel Smyth. She found British conservatories would not take a female student so she tried in Germany. After much deliberation, the conservatory in Leipzig agreed to admit her BUT... she could attend lecture classes only if there was a divider in the room between her and the other (all) male students. She would be a distraction without it!

I'm also reminded of reading about how jobs at the Disney studio in the 1930s were strictly segregated. Men could be artists and animators and technicians. Women could be cel-inkers and painters. They worked in very separate parts of the building and fraternization was very much discouraged.

This separation of the sexes wasn't just prudishness or a belief that women could not do "men's work". I believe there was a very real experience that men and women could not be mingled in the work place without damaging productivity.

It's like high school. In almost every class there was a subset of the boys who were endlessly trying to get a girl's attention... passing a note, whispering, making the "rude" comment. And there was always the subset of girls in the class who responded to that and fed it by taking the note, listening to the whisper, and then loudly pretending to hide their giggles. It really only takes one or two of each to derail the class.

While most adults can work productively work with the opposite sex there is a certain subset (mostly men) who never outgrow high school and never learn boundaries. And if one of them has the position of superiority in the institution it is very easy to think the rules are optional.

But this should be news to no one.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2025-02-21 9:48 p.m.

[quote="atopper333"]This gives way to either common sense approaches of avoiding the appearance of impropriety by approaches like GabrielRice mentioned, or creating buffers like Harrisonreed mentioned.[/quote]

I want to be clear that I try to make choices not just to avoid the appearance of impropriety - although that is definitely a consideration; I think an even more important priority is to create an environment where every student feels safe.

atopper333 · by **atopper333** » 2025-02-21 9:58 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="atopper333" post_id="267833" time="1740184654" user_id="15001">
This gives way to either common sense approaches of avoiding the appearance of impropriety by approaches like GabrielRice mentioned, or creating buffers like Harrisonreed mentioned.[/quote]

I want to be clear that I try to make choices not just to avoid the appearance of impropriety - although that is definitely a consideration; I think an even more important priority is to create an environment where every student feels safe.
</QUOTE>

And that is something that I feel I can very much agree with in the way you have clarified and is a certain bit of levelheadedness we hardly see anymore. It’s the totality of the actions that matter.

BassBoneFL · by **BassBoneFL** » 2025-02-22 7:51 a.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]I think there are ways to find a balance. At Boston University, for example, we are now required to teach in a space with a window that is uncovered. Perfectly reasonable.

And we just have to be thoughtful about what we do and how we do it. It's not really enough just to behave well; it's also important to realize that every student might not be comfortable in every situation.

For example, for a while at the camp where I teach in the summer, I was using a practice cabin for studio class and private lessons that's a little bit secluded. I thought it was good for our loud instruments to be a bit separated from others, etc. I've moved for a couple of reasons, one being the trek to get there with a tuba, distance to the rehearsals they need to get to before and after, etc., but the more important one being that I don't want any student to ever feel uncomfortable because they're alone in a cabin in the woods with some older guy they don't really know yet.<I> I know</I> I'm not going to do anything inappropriate, but that's not enough.[/quote]

I have a few friends who teach at state universities around the country who were accused by students of inappropriate behavior. Upon investigation they were cleared and the students admitted to fabricating the events as retribution for a failed jury or barrier exam. They have since started video recording every lesson, audition, or other interaction with students.

It is for this reason that I no longer teach privately at my house and am considering leaving the schools where I have taught without incident for almost 20yrs. (At the schools, I teach in rooms with glass doors and sit across the room from the students) At this point of my life, I just don't want to deal with all the hassle of self-protection and even if/when vindicated after being accused (as I've learned from my friends), you can't un-ring a bell. I enjoy teaching and don't need the money (never did it for the money to begin with.... FL adjunct rates actually cost me money to teach) but the risk/reward is no longer worth it.

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2025-02-23 6:05 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.

To Gabe’s point about binding arbitration in the NYP case, it appears that neither Muckey nor Liang will return to the orchestra. After losing the initial arbitration, the orchestra refused to re-engage them, and the Union is not contesting its decision (after a majority of NYP musicians refused to appear on stage with them). This is a relatively recent update from, I think, a reliable source:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://apnews.com/article/new-york-phi ... dd322b6fa3">https://apnews.com/article/new-york-philharmonic-sexual-misconduct-firings-cbaa502d3b0a811f86572fdd322b6fa3</LINK_TEXT>

So, to sum up, you were right, I was wrong, apologies to Ms F.[/quote]

What's interesting is that both players still are listed on the orchestra's website, complete with bios.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-02-23 7:43 p.m.

In the NY Philharmonic situation, both of those players have significant lawsuits that are proceeding against the NYP (and against Local 802, I believe?). I think their names will continue to be on the website until those legal actions are resolved.

Jim Scott

JTeagarden · by **JTeagarden** » 2025-03-05 1:20 p.m.

I have four older sisters, none is any kind of shrinking violet, two are attorneys. I asked them years ago whether they had ever been sexually harassed, and each said "of course, many times!"

I was shocked: because I couldn't imagine acting like that, it was hard to imagine any other man who seemed civilized to act like that, but then I was reminded of a neighbor's mother growing up: She always had a black eye, or bruises, and always some reasonable explanation for it, but in fact, her husband, a respected doctor, was abusing her, and the chances of her being believed at the time, and then the police actually doing something about it, pretty much zero.

There is nothing inherently bad about white men in power, it's not culturally unique to western cultures: There is a tendency of people in power to abuse it, it's a universal aspect of humanity.

Every case should determined on its merits, though, "saying the right words and really feeling it" is not the same thing as evidence: There should be no automatic presumption of guilt, either legally or socially, best to keep your torch and pitchfork in the garage until things come to light.

Maksym · by **Maksym** » 2025-06-16 4:05 a.m.

Do you think she should have spoken up sooner?

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