Best contra for the $
- Jbeckett
- Posts: 1194
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
Curious as to what’s out there. Why you’re using what you’re using, etc
- NotSkilledHere
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Aug 07, 2024
There's a pretty large price gap between the like $2.5k Chinese contras and the $10k-20k+ commanded from any prominent make, most often from Europe. I have played some Chinese and some of the proper makes. I think the Chinese horns often exhibit qualities whether physically or sonically/intonation-wise that make them "quirky" or exhibit build quality problems. the Modern European ones are quite wonderful, but expensive. Even used you are paying probably at least $8k for one.
and this is where the problem comes in. I think if you can get a Chinese one that happens to be decent and sort out any phsyical build problems with your local tech, it can be a passable horn and if you are in need of a contra for a situation, people wont say no. but if you were to get one from a proper make, most people are easily priced out of ownership. so it's hard to argue against the Chinese contra if you find a decent one and sort the physical issues.
Leuchter makes a good contra and sells at $10k-11k last i checked on the BrassArk website. He also recently got a small shipment of them and wont be getting another til 2026 if i remember correctly. Not sure if they are still in stock, but if you must have one now and from a good proper make, that might be the best chance. A lot of contras you have to wait quite a while to get.
and this is where the problem comes in. I think if you can get a Chinese one that happens to be decent and sort out any phsyical build problems with your local tech, it can be a passable horn and if you are in need of a contra for a situation, people wont say no. but if you were to get one from a proper make, most people are easily priced out of ownership. so it's hard to argue against the Chinese contra if you find a decent one and sort the physical issues.
Leuchter makes a good contra and sells at $10k-11k last i checked on the BrassArk website. He also recently got a small shipment of them and wont be getting another til 2026 if i remember correctly. Not sure if they are still in stock, but if you must have one now and from a good proper make, that might be the best chance. A lot of contras you have to wait quite a while to get.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
The answer is none. Contras are not worth it at any price point.
The cheap Chinese horns are awful.
The $4k Wessex with rotors is still... not good (they are only .615 through the valves!).
Used Kanstul... not great. I don't think they chose the right Voigt to copy.
Now we are into the German horns, which even used are 8K plus. Many of them are good, but the price point is just nuts.
Old Theins are not great. Not awful, but still very expensive. I'm not a fan of newer BvD Theins but they are definitely better... and more expensive as a result.
Rath is good, good luck finding one.
Voigt is great, crazy expensive.
Leuchter is good, still 10k+.
Laetzsch is the best (IMO of course) and is also crazy expensive.
The cheap Chinese horns are awful.
The $4k Wessex with rotors is still... not good (they are only .615 through the valves!).
Used Kanstul... not great. I don't think they chose the right Voigt to copy.
Now we are into the German horns, which even used are 8K plus. Many of them are good, but the price point is just nuts.
Old Theins are not great. Not awful, but still very expensive. I'm not a fan of newer BvD Theins but they are definitely better... and more expensive as a result.
Rath is good, good luck finding one.
Voigt is great, crazy expensive.
Leuchter is good, still 10k+.
Laetzsch is the best (IMO of course) and is also crazy expensive.
- bassbone1993
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Feb 10, 2023
I remember the days when there were rumors of a Q series contra
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="bassbone1993"]I remember the days when there were rumors of a Q series contra[/quote]
I think they're still working on it. But I also think it'll end up at 8K+, so not like it'll be a "budget" instrument in any way
I think they're still working on it. But I also think it'll end up at 8K+, so not like it'll be a "budget" instrument in any way
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
We need Y-Fort to come to the rescue, or for Wessex to improve theirs.
I've also been looking at the Finke contra recently. Much cheaper than other German contras, and Finke is a respected maker (especially among hornists). The only issue is the default tuning is F/E/Bb, but I would imagine they would build it in a different tuning if you asked.
I've also been looking at the Finke contra recently. Much cheaper than other German contras, and Finke is a respected maker (especially among hornists). The only issue is the default tuning is F/E/Bb, but I would imagine they would build it in a different tuning if you asked.
- bbocaner
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
The Rath is quite nice and is a very good deal compared to the German ones.
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I designed the Rath to be as user friendly as possible. Very flexible tuning options. Accessible for bass trombonist. I don't know current availability, but it's not been a problem in the past. Import duty may have changed, but that's not Raths fault.
- Jbeckett
- Posts: 1194
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
I play in a choir with mostly retired military and pros. Our contra player plays a Rath and it sounds great. He sits in on symphony gigs on tuba beside me. Highly decorated Marine band retired.
Square bends aside and preferences aside, it’s a good horn.
He has said on an occasion or two “if Shires ever makes one, I’ll buy it”.
I may buy a Chinese model for the mean time and (low risk ROI) see what I can and can’t deal with.
Ilan has a Chinese but it’s heavily modified. I may have to go that route, but $8k for a Shires Q contra isn’t bad.
Square bends aside and preferences aside, it’s a good horn.
He has said on an occasion or two “if Shires ever makes one, I’ll buy it”.
I may buy a Chinese model for the mean time and (low risk ROI) see what I can and can’t deal with.
Ilan has a Chinese but it’s heavily modified. I may have to go that route, but $8k for a Shires Q contra isn’t bad.
- jonathanharker
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Aug 14, 2022
I own a Wessex, of the first type which is the cheap BvD knock-off with Hagmann-shaped valves made by Jinbao that you can still get as a stencil horn from the likes of Dillon, O'Malley, Schiller, et al. (Wessex have since designed their own F contra with rotary valves). It cost £1600 and for that price I couldn't just leave it there for someone else. It was a bit stuffy, but I ordered a replacement leadpipe from Noah Gladstone it's now a different horn. It plays beautifully well., much better than the only other contra I've played, which is a mid-1980s Thein, which was like playing a didjeridu with a sock in it. For a mouthpiece the Ferguson 2A seems to kick ass with extreme prejudice (same dimensions as the Josef Klier KBP-2A). If I wasn't on a budget, I'd get the Rath, and if I was some weird-ass billionaire with a bat cave I'd try out a Jürgen Voigt or the Haag. Kromat make one with Thayer valves if that's your vibe.
Chinese instruments have always had a YMMV clause, they can be a bit of a lottery but a once-over at a good tech can fix up weak solders and other minor faults. Like many other things being made in China now, the QA is improving all the time, especially recently (just ask US, JP and EU auto manufacturers about EVs...)
Now I can play a contrabass trombone, I couldn't before. How else was I ever going to learn how to play one? I'm probably never going to get a paid gig on it, but you never know, a local orchestra might program a bunch of Hans Zimmer movie music.
Chinese instruments have always had a YMMV clause, they can be a bit of a lottery but a once-over at a good tech can fix up weak solders and other minor faults. Like many other things being made in China now, the QA is improving all the time, especially recently (just ask US, JP and EU auto manufacturers about EVs...)
Now I can play a contrabass trombone, I couldn't before. How else was I ever going to learn how to play one? I'm probably never going to get a paid gig on it, but you never know, a local orchestra might program a bunch of Hans Zimmer movie music.
- SamBTbrn
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Oct 10, 2023
[quote="Finetales"]We need Y-Fort to come to the rescue, or for Wessex to improve theirs.
I've also been looking at the Finke contra recently. Much cheaper than other German contras, and Finke is a respected maker (especially among hornists). The only issue is the default tuning is F/E/Bb, but I would imagine they would build it in a different tuning if you asked.[/quote]
Let's wait first to see if y-fort can build a good Basstrombone first.
The current wessex model is the improved model. <EMOJI seq="1f605" tseq="1f605">😅</EMOJI>
Hmmmm you would be hard pressed to find a trombonist in Europe that consideres Finke respectable these days. They were only known for their baroque trombones in the 1980's which are possibly the least authentic sackbuts you can find. Though I am happy to be corrected if the make a good contra.
I've also been looking at the Finke contra recently. Much cheaper than other German contras, and Finke is a respected maker (especially among hornists). The only issue is the default tuning is F/E/Bb, but I would imagine they would build it in a different tuning if you asked.[/quote]
Let's wait first to see if y-fort can build a good Basstrombone first.
The current wessex model is the improved model. <EMOJI seq="1f605" tseq="1f605">😅</EMOJI>
Hmmmm you would be hard pressed to find a trombonist in Europe that consideres Finke respectable these days. They were only known for their baroque trombones in the 1980's which are possibly the least authentic sackbuts you can find. Though I am happy to be corrected if the make a good contra.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="Burgerbob"]The answer is none. Contras are not worth it at any price point.[/quote]
Depends what's meant by "worth it." Probably very very few people have ever earned as much money playing contrabass trombone as they spent to acquire it - but realistically most instruments of all types that are sold never get "paid off" in that way.
Depends what's meant by "worth it." Probably very very few people have ever earned as much money playing contrabass trombone as they spent to acquire it - but realistically most instruments of all types that are sold never get "paid off" in that way.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="spencercarran"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="268518" time="1740769385" user_id="3131">
The answer is none. Contras are not worth it at any price point.[/quote]
Depends what's meant by "worth it." Probably very very few people have ever earned as much money playing contrabass trombone as they spent to acquire it - but realistically most instruments of all types that are sold never get "paid off" in that way.
</QUOTE>
I agree, I'm mostly speaking to the horns themselves. There is no sweet spot middle ground where they make sense. They are either cheap and awful or expensive and good.
The answer is none. Contras are not worth it at any price point.[/quote]
Depends what's meant by "worth it." Probably very very few people have ever earned as much money playing contrabass trombone as they spent to acquire it - but realistically most instruments of all types that are sold never get "paid off" in that way.
</QUOTE>
I agree, I'm mostly speaking to the horns themselves. There is no sweet spot middle ground where they make sense. They are either cheap and awful or expensive and good.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="SamBTbrn"]The current wessex model is the improved model. <EMOJI seq="1f605" tseq="1f605">😅</EMOJI>[/quote]
And it still needs a lot of improvements to be worth it.
It's hardly fair to judge a modern brass maker on their sackbuts, considering the only makers that actually do them well are those who specialize in historical instruments.
Finke trombones aren't something with a lot of info from players out there, but there are plenty of French horn players who like their Finke horns so I would assume they can make a brass instrument well.
Of course, the only way to know if their contra is good or not (apart from somebody on this forum having already bought one) is to buy one.
And it still needs a lot of improvements to be worth it.
Hmmmm you would be hard pressed to find a trombonist in Europe that consideres Finke respectable these days. They were only known for their baroque trombones in the 1980's which are possibly the least authentic sackbuts you can find. Though I am happy to be corrected if the make a good contra.
It's hardly fair to judge a modern brass maker on their sackbuts, considering the only makers that actually do them well are those who specialize in historical instruments.
Finke trombones aren't something with a lot of info from players out there, but there are plenty of French horn players who like their Finke horns so I would assume they can make a brass instrument well.
Of course, the only way to know if their contra is good or not (apart from somebody on this forum having already bought one) is to buy one.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
I don't think I have ever seen a Finke trombone (apart from some old sackbuts) here in Germany.
But that really doesn't mean they are bad. However your chances of trying one are probably extremely low.
I had also been looking for that magical medium priced, but great playing contra and have been extremely lucky more or less finding it. It's a one-off built as an apprentice's final piece of his training. Modeled after an example by Kromat it's a very well-playing and sounding instrument. It does have some small flaws, but probably overall better than any of the Chinese offerings, exactly my "taste" of contra (I do not like the Thein-shaped things ;-) ) and cost only little more than the Wessex.
I am afraid it's not very likely that another like this will show up...
But that really doesn't mean they are bad. However your chances of trying one are probably extremely low.
I had also been looking for that magical medium priced, but great playing contra and have been extremely lucky more or less finding it. It's a one-off built as an apprentice's final piece of his training. Modeled after an example by Kromat it's a very well-playing and sounding instrument. It does have some small flaws, but probably overall better than any of the Chinese offerings, exactly my "taste" of contra (I do not like the Thein-shaped things ;-) ) and cost only little more than the Wessex.
I am afraid it's not very likely that another like this will show up...
- deanmccarty
- Posts: 224
- Joined: May 01, 2018
I agree with Aidan. ANY contra is not worth the money… but I put a caveat to that… unless you just really want one. I saw my first contra at a jazz festival when I was in high school. Phil Teele played “I Ain’t Gonna Ask No More” with the Tabakin/Akiyoshi Big Band. It was then when I told myself “you’re going to have one of those someday. Well… that was roughly 40 years ago… about 5 years ago I bit the bullet and purchased one, after a LOT of research.
I wanted a good instrument at a moderate price point (moderate is funny when you are talking about contras). I looked at the Wessex instruments… and quickly decided that $3K for an instrument that wasn’t any good wasn’t a wise move. The only problem is the next instrument was about $6K more than that. There’s not really anything in between.
I tried every contra I could get my hands on (which wasn’t a lot)… Rath was good, Kanstul was not great, but better than Wessex, Thein was great but out of reach, and then I tried Voigt. Voigt for me was the best of the bunch… great playing instrument, and (at the time) was about $4K less than Rath.
I was able to customize exactly what I wanted for right about $9K… $9,000 for an instrument I’ll never recoup the funds… I still call myself crazy. But… I absolutely love the horn. It’s something I’ve wanted since my teens. I had the funds and made the purchase. I have no regrets.
Now, everything is more expensive… but I would give Voigt a look… they have 4 different contra models to choose from. And they are still fair on the price compared to the other German makers.
I wanted a good instrument at a moderate price point (moderate is funny when you are talking about contras). I looked at the Wessex instruments… and quickly decided that $3K for an instrument that wasn’t any good wasn’t a wise move. The only problem is the next instrument was about $6K more than that. There’s not really anything in between.
I tried every contra I could get my hands on (which wasn’t a lot)… Rath was good, Kanstul was not great, but better than Wessex, Thein was great but out of reach, and then I tried Voigt. Voigt for me was the best of the bunch… great playing instrument, and (at the time) was about $4K less than Rath.
I was able to customize exactly what I wanted for right about $9K… $9,000 for an instrument I’ll never recoup the funds… I still call myself crazy. But… I absolutely love the horn. It’s something I’ve wanted since my teens. I had the funds and made the purchase. I have no regrets.
Now, everything is more expensive… but I would give Voigt a look… they have 4 different contra models to choose from. And they are still fair on the price compared to the other German makers.
- Jbeckett
- Posts: 1194
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
[quote="deanmccarty"]I agree with Aidan. ANY contra is not worth the money… but I put a caveat to that… unless you just really want one. I saw my first contra at a jazz festival when I was in high school. Phil Teele played “I Ain’t Gonna Ask No More” with the Tabakin/Akiyoshi Big Band. It was then when I told myself “you’re going to have one of those someday. Well… that was roughly 40 years ago… about 5 years ago I bit the bullet and purchased one, after a LOT of research.
I wanted a good instrument at a moderate price point (moderate is funny when you are talking about contras). I looked at the Wessex instruments… and quickly decided that $3K for an instrument that wasn’t any good wasn’t a wise move. The only problem is the next instrument was about $6K more than that. There’s not really anything in between.
I tried every contra I could get my hands on (which wasn’t a lot)… Rath was good, Kanstul was not great, but better than Wessex, Thein was great but out of reach, and then I tried Voigt. Voigt for me was the best of the bunch… great playing instrument, and (at the time) was about $4K less than Rath.
I was able to customize exactly what I wanted for right about $9K… $9,000 for an instrument I’ll never recoup the funds… I still call myself crazy. But… I absolutely love the horn. It’s something I’ve wanted since my teens. I had the funds and made the purchase. I have no regrets.
Now, everything is more expensive… but I would give Voigt a look… they have 4 different contra models to choose from. And they are still fair on the price compared to the other German makers.[/quote]
I’ll definitely give Voigt a look. Always wanting to try new things, but with the Hecht Thein at $11k+, I might as well buy a contra…
Thanks for the advice, gents.
I wanted a good instrument at a moderate price point (moderate is funny when you are talking about contras). I looked at the Wessex instruments… and quickly decided that $3K for an instrument that wasn’t any good wasn’t a wise move. The only problem is the next instrument was about $6K more than that. There’s not really anything in between.
I tried every contra I could get my hands on (which wasn’t a lot)… Rath was good, Kanstul was not great, but better than Wessex, Thein was great but out of reach, and then I tried Voigt. Voigt for me was the best of the bunch… great playing instrument, and (at the time) was about $4K less than Rath.
I was able to customize exactly what I wanted for right about $9K… $9,000 for an instrument I’ll never recoup the funds… I still call myself crazy. But… I absolutely love the horn. It’s something I’ve wanted since my teens. I had the funds and made the purchase. I have no regrets.
Now, everything is more expensive… but I would give Voigt a look… they have 4 different contra models to choose from. And they are still fair on the price compared to the other German makers.[/quote]
I’ll definitely give Voigt a look. Always wanting to try new things, but with the Hecht Thein at $11k+, I might as well buy a contra…
Thanks for the advice, gents.