Do/did you have a day job outside of music?

TromboneSam · by **TromboneSam** » 2019-02-12 1:14 p.m.

Do you guys have day jobs that aren't musical? What made you want to/decide to get it? I realize many people say that you can't make a living playing music, but for the last two years, I've been able to get by paying the rent and feeding myself solely through music. I've been hearing a lot though about some friends making obscene amounts of money doing desk jobs during the day, and it just has me thinking.

When it comes down to brass tacks, how much money it takes to support yourself depends on how you want to live (ie. what kind of house you want to live in, car you want to drive, family/kids, how well you can suppress your trombone collecting addiction, etc.) in my humble opinion. If you like flashy things, you need to be making a lot of money. If you don't mind living more simply, then living solely from musical income seems more do-able.

What are your thoughts? Have any of you started a day job early in your career and left when your musical career became more stable?

Most importantly, do you have any advice for young musicians trying to make a living through music?

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-02-12 1:37 p.m.

It depends on where you live. Large metropolitan areas tend to have more opportunities for musicians to make money making music. Still, day jobs can be a blessing. I've found in my experience that it really helps to try to find a day job that has a consistent schedule. Jobs that involve last-minute schedule changes like electricians don't mix with music well.

sacfxdx · by **sacfxdx** » 2019-02-12 3:57 p.m.

You also need to think about retirement and healthcare. Healthcare can be very expensive and having savings to fall back on if needed can be quite comforting. I went into the IT industry 40 years ago. I played in High school and now that I will retire in a year I have been playing again. You are correct. It's all about personal preference.

I do not regret my decision. I just wish I had continued playing while working my day job the last 40 years.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-02-12 4:04 p.m.

Your post reads like 95% of the people on this site are full time musicians who are on the fence about making more money doing a desk job. I'd wager that your view is quite skewed.

I'd be surprised if it was even 10% who are full time musicians.

TromboneSam · by **TromboneSam** » 2019-02-12 5:15 p.m.

[quote="AndrewMeronek"]It depends on where you live. Large metropolitan areas tend to have more opportunities for musicians to make money making music.[/quote]

I totally agree. I can't imagine Madison, Wisconsin has the same musical opportunities as NYC, or even Philly.

[quote="sacfxdx"]You also need to think about retirement and healthcare. Healthcare can be very expensive and having savings to fall back on if needed can be quite comforting. I went into the IT industry 40 years ago. I played in High school and now that I will retire in a year I have been playing again. You are correct. It's all about personal preference.

I do not regret my decision. I just wish I had continued playing while working my day job the last 40 years.[/quote]

I agree but didn't even think about that. I suppose I'm fortunate to play with an army band in the national guard (part-time gig), so healthcare is taken care of, as well as retirement, provided I do 13 more years.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Your post reads like 95% of the people on this site are full time musicians who are on the fence about making more money doing a desk job. I'd wager that your view is quite skewed.

I'd be surprised if it was even 10% who are full time musicians.[/quote]

Perhaps the writing makes it seem that way, and I'm sorry. I'm very much aware that probably most musicians have day jobs that aren't related to music. Maybe the last few questions I asked could have been phrased more like "Did your music ever get to a point where you didn't need a day job anymore to pay the bills?" and "Do you think it's possible for a young musician to make a living solely through music, why or why not?"

I'd also be curious to know what your day jobs are.

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2019-02-12 5:16 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Your post reads like 95% of the people on this site are full time musicians who are on the fence about making more money doing a desk job. I'd wager that your view is quite skewed.

I'd be surprised if it was even 10% who are full time musicians.[/quote]

What he said. I work on computers for a living and blow a trombone for fun and occasional extra cash. A big year for me is making $3,000 playing trombone. Of course, where I live, you could play every paying trombone gig in the entire county and make under ten grand a year. I'm not counting teaching in that. Then again, if I lived in a bigger area, there would be more players fighting for the gigs, so I might not do any better.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-02-12 5:49 p.m.

I was able to live as a musician for 4 years. I was miserable playing dreary music that had less and less value the more I played it. I think the last straw was "Eye of the Tiger" for the 50th time. I realized that I would never be able to make a living doing what I wanted to do musically. So I hopped off that train, and got on a different one. One where I could make a living doing something productive I enjoyed and still be able to play the music I wanted to play. One where I could afford to buy a trombone, a car, a house. That was one of the better decisions I've made. I love music again, and haven't played "Eye of the Tiger" since.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-02-12 5:51 p.m.

I had a friend who was a superb clarinettist and went pro. He was also pretty smart, but even though he had a lot of opportunities in New York City and played them all he didn't make as good a living as his father, who was a skilled tradesman.

I was told I had some talent as a trombone player, but I also was pretty good at Math and Science. So I became a Chemical Engineer mainly because it let me eat better. I actually put the trombone in a closet for 20 years and didn't restart until I moved to New Hampshire. Playing opportunities for amateurs in New England are more common than in New York City.

I have a book of transcriptions of JJ Johnson solos and it includes a short biography. Seems that even JJ, who was at the top of the heap in Jazz Trombone, had a day job as a Drawing Inspector at Sperry Instruments for times when the gigs dried up.

It's a hard profession to make a living at. I know too many people who went to Conservatory and wound up doing something else to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads. I have great admiration for those who won the few jobs that pay a living wage as a musician.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2019-02-12 6:14 p.m.

For me, I am a trombonist in the US Army, but that job comes with a ton of other tasks that are not music related. That is 100% not a complaint.

Very rewarding, a lot of music, but not like a full time musician's schedule would be. One day I am working on repairing weapons, another I am training humvee driving, and another I am processing paperwork that makes the army side of things run. But every day there is music.

So it feels like ... I dunno. I don't think a lot of day job are like that. I like it though. Most musicians that are full time probably feel like they have all kinss of other jobs though.

SaigonSlide · by **SaigonSlide** » 2019-02-12 11:04 p.m.

I am a family doctor. I realized very early on in college that playing the trombone the way I wanted was not going to pay for much. Certainly not nearly enough to have a family, to travel, or to live where I wanted. Because those things were important to me (and still are), I really sacrificed my playing in order to be able to do other things. And as mentioned above, I did not want to play Eye of the Tiger. Ever.

So, after another 8 years of school, and 10 or so years of doctoring, I got back to the bone as a 44yo. Now I have a family, live abroad, work until 3:30 most days, then play as much as I can.

I don't have the musical experiences that I had when I was younger, and I'm not surrounded by many musicians. But I can play my trombone a lot, and I play what I want. I also don't have to worry about life stuff as much as I probably would if I was trying to make a living playing. Who knows...

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2019-02-12 11:46 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I know too many people who went to Conservatory and wound up doing something else to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads.[/quote]

I had a good friend in high school who played 1st trombone and was a superb performer (while I was playing saxophone and being very mediocre). He was also, even in high school, a gifted composer. I lost touch with him after high school, but recently wondered whatever happened to him, and through the magic of the web (with some effort) found some details.

Out of high school he went to Eastman and picked up a performance degree in trombone and a degree in composing. Then he went into the graduate program at Cornell to continue with composing. I think he finished a Master's degree. At roughly that point he seems to have joined a construction company in central NY and became a construction foreman/supervisor -- a position from which he ultimately retired. Through the following decades after leaving school, he continued to compose and won several distinctive awards and had some sort of international performances of several of his pieces.

I mention this because I personally never knew anyone who was more talented and more capable a musician than this guy. But he didn't make a career out of being a "professional" musician.

On the other hand I know two other people (one a percussionist and one a bassoonist) who started out in theoretical physics, bailed out with Master's degrees in that, and became professional orchestral musicians (where they are still playing -- one in NC and one in Albany, NY).

It's something of a crap shoot and can depend very much not only on your talent and commitment, but on what you really want out of life and how you want to get it.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2019-02-13 12:07 a.m.

I made it through two quarters as a performance major and realized I didn't have the right sum of talent and desire to make it as a pro musician. I got a liberal arts degree, but got no real job offers when I graduated so spent 2 years touring with a family big band. That was going nowhere and I ended up getting into insurance loss prevention/risk managment. That gave me a good enough living to retire at 61. I never stopped playing trombone for fun, though, and figure I've been at it for 51 years now. It was a great way to get away from my day job and meet great people. On the other hand, back in high school I was in a community college jazz band with a guy who went on to Ohio State and then Eastman and has made a decent living as a player, arranger, and clinician. Ever heard of John Fedchock? All that said, if I hadn't tried music as a major, I would probably have gone through life wondering if I could have made it as full time musician.

shider · by **shider** » 2019-02-13 2:12 a.m.

Wonderful thread with interesting stories!

All of you above seem to be far ahead of me regarding life experience.. but I'd like to throw my story in too.

I'm only 25 years old, but this was my way of life so far:

After getting the highest school degree you can get in Germany i went into the metal-industry and did an apprenticeship to become an industrial mechanic. Directly after finishing that i went on to go to university and now i'm in the last few months of my studies to become a mechanical engineer.

The question if i want to become a professional musician was there at one point while i was still in school, but on one hand i was very lazy back then and didn't practice nearly enough to support that path and on the other hand I was looking at it this way: in southern Germany there is a lot of automotive companies (think Mercedes/BMW) and their suppliers, so getting a well paying job in this field is a lot easier (and more reliable) than having to leave my rural home town (which i didn't want to) to first get a degree in music and then finding an opportunity to create a living from that.

Where I live we have a the highest density of amateur musicians (organised in clubs) in all of Germany, so you have a lot of very talented guys who took the same path like me: working a well paying day job and enjoying music not as a job, but as a recreational hobby :)

The high density of really good amateurs creates a "market" that makes it even harder for professionals who want/have to earn a living wage playing music! The appreciation of their skills is not really high and most people (even the amateur musicians) cheap out when hiring a band :idk:

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2019-02-13 6:28 a.m.

I’m an elementary school music teacher with a PhD in musicology. So weird things do happen.

I love my day job, but I took it knowing that I’m not going to make as much money as other private-sector ventures I could do. Teaching is not a hard profession AFTER you’ve built the content-area skills, classroom management skills, interpersonal skills, tech skills, and curricular planning skill necessary to make it work. If I didn’t have advanced degrees I wouldn’t be able to do it.

I get to play music with kids aged 3-13 every day, and I get some dedicated practice time at work. I also get to spend a lot of thing thinking about basic musical processes, why they work or don’t work, and how I can apply that knowledge to my teaching. It’s extremely rewarding, but it took me 10 years to get to that point. I do community groups and a ska band on the side, and that keeps me pretty busy.

I think the biggest problem with playing as a career option isn’t just the lack of available jobs, but it’s the maturity necessary to make music at that high of a level, constantly, and not screwing it up. I wasn’t mature enough to do that at 22, either in my playing or my concepts. By the time a lot of players are at that point, they’d have starved to death without a non-playing job.

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2019-02-13 9:11 a.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]Ever heard of John Fedchock?[/quote]

Speaking of famous former colleagues, I was in college band with Kieth Lockhart for 2 years. I just remember him as a geeky looking skinny clarinet player.

Tarkus697 · by **Tarkus697** » 2019-02-13 9:45 a.m.

I've had a day job since I graduated college in '95. Always around software support/customer support/client relations but in across vastly different industries.

I didn't start playing trombone again regularly until I moved to Philadelphia 5 years ago, and that was at my wife's encouragement. Now, I'm coming up on 2 years playing with my wedding/events band. It puts "fun money" into my pocket (a decent amount of it) which frees up the $ from my current day job for rent/insurance/bills/savings.

I never wanted to pursue music on a full-time basis, so I'm comfy where I am with the weekend gigs and occasional subbing gigs for other projects.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2019-02-13 11:22 a.m.

I’ve always had a day gig. I had opportunities to pursue a primarliy music-based career, but my priorities and motivation at the time led me to continue my day gig and play on the side.

About 7 years ago, I radically changed careers and became a drug and alcohol counselor. Many D&A counselors (I’m guessing 60% or more) work evenings doing intensive outpatient treatment, which is usually group therapy in the evenings, with paperwork during the late morning-late afternoons. Positions working during the day are fairly competitve within the industry. That pretty much cut me out of most musical groups right there.

A few months ago, I decided I needed to continue playing regularly and practicing regularly. I’m currently between jobs (long story), but I’m looking for jobs where I work during the day and leave my evenings free. I will probably take a cut in pay, but I’d rather be happier playing and have a little less money than have a little more more and be relatively unhappy and unfulfilled.

JLivi · by **JLivi** » 2019-02-13 11:32 a.m.

100% of everything I do is music. I make a decent living, but to be honest, if it wasn't for being married to someone without a day job, insurance would have killed me financially. Hopping on my wife's insurance plan was WAY cheaper than anything the marketplace could offer. With that help I've been able to max out my IRA for the last 4 years, buy a house, pay off most of my student loans (which is a killer to my generation), and recently have a child and not have any worry about finances.

To be fair, I live near Chicago so there's a lot work. Here's a list of things I do on a regular basis:

Teach private lessons at 4 different high school (25-30 students total)

Direct a developing jazz band at one of those high schools

Play in a wedding/jobbing band regularly (40-50 days/year)

Direct a college Pep Band

Free lance as a trombone player & writer/arranger

The biggest thing for me was the fact that I was able to beef up my teaching studio and play in a jobbing band regularly. Once I locked that down I was able to fill in the cracks around those 2 jobs.

And in case you cared, I received a Bachelors degree in Sound Recording and masters degree in Jazz Studies. I'm very fortunate to be in the position I'm in, but I busted my ass and lived below the poverty line from age 22-26 to get here. I try to live by the phrase, "lift as you climb" because if it wasn't for older cats helping me out I would've never climbed the mountain. Now it's my turn to try to help younger musicians.

bimmerman · by **bimmerman** » 2019-02-13 12:38 p.m.

I actually stopped playing post high school until my last year of grad school, due to burning out when younger. I was probably good enough at that time to study music in college, but I was so burnt out that I walked away from it to study engineering and dive headfirst into motorsports. I knew I was never going to be good enough to go pro or make a living at it.

Fast forward 7 years and to my penultimate year of grad school: I came to the realization that I was missing a creative outlet unrelated to my schooling, job, and technical interests (read: racecars). So, picked up my horn again, and after about a year of practicing and lessons I joined the university symphony/wind ensemble/jazz band. That was a ton of fun and felt like a nice victory lap.

Now, I work as an engineering consultant during the day, and practice when I can. Unfortunately job demands have severely hampered my ability to practice at sane hours of the evening, but I'm coping as best I can. I play to decompress from work and to engage a different part of my brain, either by myself or with community groups. That's enough for me!

Gary · by **Gary** » 2019-02-13 1:06 p.m.

Professional musician all my adult life. There was a time, though, when it was financially prudent to supplement my income, but nothing approaching full-time work. Never thought about it before, but I guess I've only done that once and that was fun. I taught English in Germany. Very rewarding.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-02-13 1:16 p.m.

I didn't actually answer the OP - so:

I've gone through a couple of career schedules so far.

My first was with the U.S. Army, which was a pretty great experience. I paid off my student loans and got to be stationed in Belgium for 3 years as part of my enlistment. That was a good decision, and I left after my first enlistment, having never really planned on staying in for a full 20 years.

After that, I ended up landing a gig as a controls engineer. I was a double-major music and computer science in school, and this was the first 'big' computer job I landed, which was at the time something I definitely wanted to try out. I found out that this job (and likely many other kinds of engineers that have to deal with emergencies) didn't mix well with the music career. It wasn't the content of the job at all - I did enjoy the creativity and problem solving in it a lot. But, the auto industry that I was working in (in general) has a fairly extreme work culture that expects pretty long hours and flexibility to respond to emergencies. I was one of the folks who might have to travel to a customer's factory to fix a machine when a problem popped up. I don't blame the companies I worked for at all - my managers worked with me very well to try to accommodate my musical schedule. It was just that chaotic content of the job itself and the general work culture across all companies that decided me to look in a different direction . . . so that's what I'm doing right now: looking around again. One thing that I lost while in that job was my local networking for gigs, which is something I'm concentrating on right now pretty hard. I am getting work around the Detroit area, and I don't think there's enough work to live on as a trombonist/composer, but I'm in a good position to test that theory, at least.

dershem · by **dershem** » 2019-02-24 11:42 a.m.

Oh, yeah. While I was able to make a living as a musician in the 70's and late 80's (Separated by 10 years in the navy), it's very stressful unless you are at the pinnacle, and those gigs are harder to get. Touring and studio work are a very tight-knit crowd, and orchestral work even more so. Besides, it's stressful, and I want to enjoy what I play. So I gave up that life and now only make a few grand a year, but I enjoy it more.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-02-24 12:26 p.m.

I'm a data engineer for a cancer research team. I do still teach lessons and gig pretty regularly but tech jobs in 2019 are really nice. I do a lot of work in my home office, in my pajamas. Script going to take 20 minutes to run? Great, my horn(s...) are sitting right next to my desk, 20 minute practice session!

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2019-02-24 1:08 p.m.

If you throw a brick at any of the amateur orchestras in London, you'll probably hit someone in IT. I went through music college a couple of centuries ago and became very clear that I was neither in the right league nor committed enough. I followed my talents into software. Now my day job is a bit less intense than it used to be so I'm practicing and playing more, and I can afford some extra horns. Meanwhile, the 4 major London music colleges produce a batch of highly trained kids every year.

paulyg · by **paulyg** » 2019-02-25 8:51 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]I'm a data engineer for a cancer research team. I do still teach lessons and gig pretty regularly but tech jobs in 2019 are really nice. I do a lot of work in my home office, in my pajamas. Script going to take 20 minutes to run? Great, my horn(s...) are sitting right next to my desk, 20 minute practice session![/quote]

>20 minutes to run script

:o

>data engineer

:mrgreen:

Great to see that my style of doing homework has a place in the economy!

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2019-02-27 10:48 a.m.

[quote="sf105"]If you throw a brick at any of the amateur orchestras in London, you'll probably hit someone in IT.[/quote]

When throwing said brick, please aim at the string section. :biggrin:

Pre59 · by **Pre59** » 2019-02-27 11:15 a.m.

Apart from an UK army staff band contract (6 years) in my youth, and two short term part-time jobs, I've been a full time musician. (50+years.) But to do this I've had to jump through myriad hoops which includes having strong doubles; B,Gtr, D/Bass, sound recording and a little arranging, also background vocals..

In short, because the tbn can often be a "last in, first out" instrument you need to cover as many bases as possible, and be able to offer "solutions". In short be indispensable even if you're not a virtuoso performer.

Oh, and get some keyboard skills as well.

torobone · by **torobone** » 2019-03-09 11:35 a.m.

Short answer: yes. I was introduced to computer science in my 3rd year of high school, which was the 2nd year that it was ever offered. I'm a 1st generation computer nerd, as other people in the field had transferred from other areas to work in IT. I also looked into geophysics as another area of study.

That said, I have played brass from age 13, and I expanded my playing through an army band,dance bands and local orchestras and studying at the local Conservatory. After completing my CS degree, I even interviewed to go into the faculty of music, but I realized that I liked computer science as much as music. Like geophysics, where I would be working in isolated places, I realized that music might be best kept as a beloved hobby. IT would better support the family I wanted to have.

Another aspect of music as a hobby is it allows me to enjoy everything I do and play. If a group or some people are not fun and the gig sucks, I'm free to play elsewhere. I have had some bad gigs and played with marginal groups, but never have I felt burned out as to take a long break from playing. I recently with a local orchestra where the people were not friendly nor were we well rehearsed for a concert; I won't go back.

A good friend stated this pretty well when he said he wants to play well enough to be welcome in any amateur setting. Like me, he is over 60 and he still takes lessons. While occasional honorariums are welcome, I don't need the money. It made me sad when a young pro on my one good paying gig ($400 for rehearsals and the gig) wanted my chair for his buddy. It was a bit of a kick, but it's sad if the work is that slow, and it is.

On another front, I subbed with a good orchestra last week. It's a high level amateur orchestra that can't seem to find regular trombones. The double bass player is a retired professional who told me an experience from a few years ago. A music studio called and offered him $200 for 2 hours to get a sample of him playing his 300 year old Italian bass. He took the gig realizing it was going to be one of his last gigs. If he didn't take the $200, somebody else would have.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2019-03-10 11:12 a.m.

When I finished grad school I wanted to stay in Boston. I had one regional orchestra contract and was starting to do freelance work, so I looked for a part-time day job. I got one in arts administration, which meant that my work was mostly task-based and I had the understanding of my boss about my need for flexibility in my schedule. It was always about half-time except for a couple of weeks a year. I won another regional orchestra job, and my freelance performing work increased more or less steadily.

Ten years later (with one brief interruption when I went back to school for a semester), I switched day jobs to working sales for the S. E. Shires company. Still about half-time most of the time, still working in music but in another capacity, still with flexibility in my schedule.

Five years later, right around when I turned 40, I was offered an teaching job in a small university music department and some touring with a brass ensemble. It became clear by looking at my calendar that it was time to step away from Shires, and I've been able to make my living from playing and teaching since then. I was very fortunate to be offered an adjunct position at Boston University, and when that got busy I gave up the other university.

I could probably have done it earlier if I had pursued teaching younger students, but I never enjoyed or felt I was well suited to that. I admire the people who are good at lighting a fire with elementary and middle school students, but I don't think I'm one of them.

I'm very grateful to the bosses at my day jobs for their flexibility and understanding; that was key to my being able to build a performing career while having the steady income of a day job.

Most of the musicians I work with have had day jobs at various points. My advice to my students is to cultivate an additional skill that you enjoy so you can have another source of income that gives you satisfaction. One of my colleagues, a fabulous trumpet player, is also a graphic designer who landed the contract doing all the print publications for the Boston Red Sox. She and her husband, a professional trombone player (who worked for several years in the MIT library system), are both very busy freelancers, her design work is done on her own schedule - no clocking in to an office - they live in a nice house in a great town, and they have three college-bound kids. She even has time to be an avid tennis player.

Higher ed administration is often a great way for musicians to have a day job. They often give good benefits even at half-time. My wife does this, and it's how we get our health insurance.

kbryson · by **kbryson** » 2019-04-03 2:02 a.m.

For health reasons I had to stop playing trombone right after completing my bachelor's in music. I had also studied music technology in school, and found a job doing music-tech kind of stuff full time. I did that for 4 years before deciding I had to try to make a go at full-time music work. It took another 3 years to get back into playing, and get my income stable enough to where I could quit the tech job.

The career I've managed to build for myself up to this point is mostly teaching private lessons, with about a third of my income coming from performing. Does that count as having a day job? I think some musicians would say so, especially with the number of students I teach! That being said San Jose has one of the most expensive home/rental markets in the country and the pay for gigs just hasn't kept up with that huge rise in cost of living out here. There are, however a lot of well educated, wealthy families here working in tech. This creates a big pool from which to draw students. I can't speak for those in S.F, Berkeley, or Oakland, but around San Jose all the musicians I know make the bulk of their money off of private lessons, or teaching music in school.

During the summer when my gig schedule picks up I will get a month or two to live off of *only* my performing, and it's super fun. Just not something I think is realistic to do all year long around here.

I still get called for the occasional contracted bit of tech work which is cool too. Always a good idea to keep your skills fresh!

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-04-03 12:36 p.m.

Yes

/Tom

Walleye · by **Walleye** » 2019-04-08 12:04 p.m.

A very relevant question and a very interesting thread to read.

My undergraduate (UT) and masters (Yale) degrees were both in performance. Halfway thru my second year at Yale I was fortunate enough to get into the New Haven Symphony Orchestra (NHSO). I played in several orchestras throughout the area and played in many different ensembles. I noticed after playing a couple of years in the NHSO that everyone in the orchestra, that was married, had a day job. That got me thinking about my future. I knew that if I was going to get a "day" job, that it couldn't be something repetitive like am office job. At about the same time I saw an intriguing commercial about flying for the Navy. I thought what can possibly go wrong so I took a leave of absence from the orchestra and reported to Aviation Office Candidate School.. 28 years later I retired as a Navy pilot. I wouldn't trade a minute of my Navy career, but unfortunately I didn't play at all during my time in the Navy.. Today I play purely for fun. Live for today and play as much music as you can, but plan for your future.

Jimprindle · by **Jimprindle** » 2019-04-08 9:23 p.m.

After more than 50 years as pro musician/teacher I feel lucky to say I never had any other work. Retired now, lucky to have both an AFM pension and Soc Sec from my many years. I am not sure that is the future for younger pros than me, but I hope for that.

The only "day job" I ever had was slinging hay bales on farms. It was good work and the farmers I worked for did not mind me practicing behind the barn and driving after work to see big bands playing in the area. All that before I was 20. I feel fortunate that I could catch working life as a bass trombonist, free lance, contracted orchestras, studios, private instruction.

One thing I would advise, report all your income to IRS. Everything. My tax documents helped me buy a house, get Soc Sec, establish credit.

The other thing I would advise free lance players, pay cash for everything--cars, credit cards, house payments, all.

Except for about 10 years of mortgage payments, I have never paid interest payments to anyone in more than 50 years.

jorymil · by **jorymil** » 2020-02-15 1:10 p.m.

I'm resurrecting this thread a bit. I definitely have a day job: I do computer systems engineering work, primarily Linux-related. I studied physics and math in college 15-odd years ago, but realized that I'd been programming computers off and on since I was 8 (Apple IIe in grade school), and really wanted to understand how the Web and the Internet worked. I'd didn't want to work in research the rest of my life, so I left with a bachelor's in physics. I got several computer certifications, learned some new programming languages, and built a Linux server lab in my dad's basement. A couple of years later, I joined AmeriCorps VISTA and moved out to Boston. All the while, I'd been playing trombone.

As an adult, I've played for myself and in various jazz groups in New England. I found a good private teacher (Dan Fox) who also led some student groups, and helped me find some different outside groups to play in. Now that I've recently moved back to the Midwest to be with my girlfriend, I'm playing again informally with her and in some small jam sessions.

It's taking me a while to find my feet: I'm starting a career as an independent IT consultant, and am learning not to take for granted everything I've had taken care of for me as a salaried employee, particularly taxes and health care. Were it not for COBRA from my former employer, I'd likely need to live in a state with better marketplace plans. COBRA is pricey as all get-out, but I can see any doctor I want for roughly the same price as a marketplace plan that limits my doctor selection to a single county.

Were it not for jazz, I might not even be playing the trombone these days, but I was extremely lucky to grow up in a city that cares about jazz, was lucky to get a Count Basie record as a high school freshman, a J.J. record as a sophomore, discover Charles Mingus as a junior, and Clifford Brown as a senior. These guys brought me through some rough times, and still do. Every year, I find more music that I love, and meet great people doing it.

obreitys · by **obreitys** » 2020-04-25 9:55 a.m.

These conversations have really been inspiring me lately.

At 27 years old, I recently graduated with my Bachelor's of Music, for which I've been attending university part-time for 6 years now. I've had to work full-time at a supermarket (a job I find extremely unfulfilling) throughout those 6 years to put myself through school. When you're in that kind of situation, it's really easy to fall into a negative spiral of thinking that you're never going to get out of your day job, never going to get to work in music, that you're going to end up hating your job until you retire, etc.

However, I've started realizing that other great musicians have also had day jobs, and still managed to hone their craft. Charlie Parker once took a job as a dishwasher while pursuing music in NYC, and Charles Ives sold insurance for practically his entire life. It's these stories that I feel don't get told enough. I feel like, especially in the academic setting, there's this pressure that after you graduate, you have to work in music, and just in music, in order to be a successful musician. This mentality has given me considerable stress throughout my educational career. Maybe we need to let more aspiring musicians know that it's ok to have additional jobs outside music without feeling like they're not "real" musicians.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2020-04-25 10:39 a.m.

[quote="obreitys"]Charles Ives sold insurance for practically his entire life[/quote]
Ives was a little more than an insurance salesman. He started as an actuary and eventually (with his partner Julian Myrick) own his own agency. From the Wikipedia article:

During his career as an insurance executive and actuary, Ives devised creative ways to structure life-insurance packages for people of means, which laid the foundation of the modern practice of estate planning.[20] His Life Insurance with Relation to Inheritance Tax, published in 1918, was well received. As a result of this he achieved considerable fame in the insurance industry of his time, with many of his business peers surprised to learn that he was also a composer.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2020-04-25 12:34 p.m.

Right now I'd bet that anyone who has been totally dependent on income from playing is in serious trouble.

Aside from my 8 years in the Air Force I have always been self-employed in one way or another, in addition to freelancing. I worked as an independent auto mechanic for a number of years - I've done a lot of compete engine rebuilds, transmissions, brakes, etc. Toured with some shows, and then started making mouthpieces, and of course teaching all along. Never had a "real" day job. I probably wouldn't last very long.

u_11561man · by **u_11561man** » 2020-04-25 12:53 p.m.

Another aspect of being a full-time musician that isn't always considered is what you will or won't do for income. Some people will do anything and everything to make ends meet, some won't. It comes down to a combination of need,want, and integrity. Whole different ballgame. Just my .02

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2020-04-25 2:16 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Right now I'd bet that anyone who has been totally dependent on income from playing is in serious trouble.[/quote]

Yup... On unemployment for the near future, perhaps a delivery driver soon enough. Right as things were really starting to fill out. Oh well, no one to blame for this one.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2020-04-25 3:10 p.m.

It's our turn to live the Flu pandemic of 1918. We can suffer mass casualties from doing nothing or try to control as we are doing now.

When I was coming up as a new player there were a lot more opportunities for professional musicians than there are now. Yet I've met a lot of my contemporaries who left music school and took jobs in other professions. Many in the Computer area (mostly in software).

I have a book of transcribed JJ Johnson solos that includes a brief biography. JJ had a "day job" as a Drawing Inspector at Sperry (a major defense contractor on Long Island). So even those of us at the top of the heap needed Day Jobs.

obreitys · by **obreitys** » 2020-04-25 4:52 p.m.

Ives was a little more than an insurance salesman. He started as an actuary and eventually (with his partner Julian Myrick) own his own agency.

Yes, you're absolutely right JohnL, didn't mean to belittle Ives' career by any means.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2020-04-25 6:11 p.m.

I know of a few people who got playing jobs right out of college or soon after who are about my age or a little older. Most of them consider themselves incredibly lucky. Most of the friends that i know that graduated music were prepared to work day jobs and freelance, and most of them have enjoyed doing that immensely.

u_8parktoollover · by **u_8parktoollover** » 2020-04-26 3:28 a.m.

I'm a student so I don't have any pro experience but I can say that my former teacher, in addition to teaching at many schools, also was an orchestral trombonist who played in many orchestras including theater orchestras, was also a jazz trombonist playing in various groups and was also a professional photographer and actress. Another example is a friend of mine who is an extremely talented classical saxophonist. I would even go as far as to say he is a prodigy decided to switch to clarinet because he knew that even someone as talented as him isn't going to make much money off playing classical saxaphone.

If your willing to be flexible you won't have a problem making money. If your idea of success is playing principal trombone in the Vienna philharmonic and anything else is considered a failiure, even if you are extremely talented, have a world class teacher, and have good contacts, having the oppurtunity to even audition for the position is very slim. If you don't want to be flexible than you will have to find another career. so if you play bass trombone then learn. tenor, if you play tenor, learn bass, if you play classical, learn jazz, if you play jazz, learn classical

EdwardSolomon · by **EdwardSolomon** » 2020-04-26 4:47 a.m.

My wife and I run a small web design agency.

Music-making is very much a pastime for me.

If anyone needs website advice, you know who to come to now.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » 2020-04-26 12:35 p.m.

I’m employed with Homeland Security so I’m fortunate to still have a job and getting paid.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2020-04-26 5:30 p.m.

[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]I’m employed with Homeland Security so I’m fortunate to still have a job and getting paid.[/quote]

Me too. I'm working as a programmer at our department for Infectious disease control. I dont think I will be out of work this year.

/Tom

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2020-04-27 8:57 a.m.

Another one working in a computing-related field here. I'm a power system studies consultant working in the field of high-voltage power grids.

I have the utmost respect for anyone who makes a full-time job as a trombonist work. To me it's a great hobby but I'm not talented or commited enough to make a living from it full-time.

What might work out one day, if I could get a couple of playing projects off the ground and reach a level where I can pick up some more gigs, would be to take a sabbatical to travel round and learn/play trombone for a year or so. It wouldn't necessarily have to cover the cost and would be more about the experience than anything else.

Words that come up at a lot at work are: response, stability, dynamics, control, performance, harmonics, resonance, interpretation and testing. Maybe trombone playing and power system studies have more in common than you might first think?

ngrinder · by **ngrinder** » 2020-04-28 12:59 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Right now I'd bet that anyone who has been totally dependent on income from playing is in serious trouble.[/quote]

Correct Doug. I am a full time musician in NYC (or, was?), and my primary income came from Broadway until March 12, when all of the shows went into hiatus. I did a recording session the night of Friday the 13th, and we joked that this was probably the "last gig in New York."

I held a chair in two different shows for most of last year, but for the few years I've been involved in that scene, subbing has been what I've done most. I play(ed) as much creative music as I can, too. Broadway is enjoyable, but also a great subsidy to the other music scenes the city has to offer.

A few years ago I began paring back my teaching, which, now, in retrospect is something I would have liked to keep up. I've held on to a few students that I teach via zoom, but feel free to add "certain unemployment during a pandemic" to "reasons not to become a professional musician." Even in the midst of this craziness in NY and the world, I am so thankful I've been able to play music full time. And even a little thankful now, because I have been really having time to practice! I wouldn't quite call it a silver lining, but it has been nice.

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-04-30 8:28 a.m.

Retired from elementary school teaching last June. Good timing, COVID-wise.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2020-04-30 12:07 p.m.

[quote="slipperyjoe"]Retired from elementary school teaching last June. Good timing, COVID-wise.[/quote]

Hope you still have good health insurance, COVID-wise! :roll:

slipperyjoe · by **slipperyjoe** » 2020-04-30 12:29 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="slipperyjoe" post_id="111600" time="1588249692" user_id="9188">
Retired from elementary school teaching last June. Good timing, COVID-wise.[/quote]

Hope you still have good health insurance, COVID-wise! :roll:
</QUOTE>

Yes, which is important since my spouse (also a recently retired teacher) and I fall within multiple high risk categories. Numerous teachers and employees from our school system (NYC) have died from COVID-19. Let's hope the same isn't true for your local school system.

MBurner · by **MBurner** » 2020-07-09 12:43 a.m.

This is resurrection at its best, but I read this thread and felt compelled to respond. I have the best job in the world now (opinion), and have the great fortune to still be drawing a salary as a trombone player during Covid (fact).

Before winning the lottery (my job), I was a freelancer in NYC. For every great gig I had playing with the MET or subbing on a broadway show, I was teaching a 4-year old what a C was on the piano 10-20 times. A definite skill, but not my ideal way to earn a living. I also moved percussion instruments, pianos, worked summers as a forklift driver, and took surveys on Craigslist for $5 a pop. For my own preservation, I had in my head that I would audition and schlep until I was 30, and then hang up the horn for hopes of a financially secure life. I was a lucky, and won a full time position performing, and I admire all of my peers that are riding out these uncertain times with all the pressures of being an artist without knowing when art will return to being a viable career.

My opinion means little, but I advise my students that want to be professional musicians to go for it with open eyes and bloody lips. Know the risk, assess the odds, and practice smarter and harder than the competition. There is no shame in working as a piano tuner (Finlayson), a doorman (Friedman) anything under the sun. If you work your tail off, opportunity will knock.

Bach42t · by **Bach42t** » 2020-08-25 1:40 p.m.

I have an undergrad degree in music with a concentration in music industry, partially funded by trombone scholarship, however I tried twice to cut it in the music business-side in both Nashville and New York. It was just not for me and desired something with more structure. Fast forward from the mid-00's when I made the choice and wow does time fly! Today I am only 6 years away from retiring from the Army. I do not play in an Army band though, I am a financial manager and have had the opportunity to live in so many places in the United States, in some rough places overseas and it gave me experiences I would not have gained elsewhere. I have also earned an MBA in Accounting on the Army's dime. The military profession has provided security and stability in my life, however, I have sacrificed years of practice time, performing, and the enrichment I can only receive through music. I look forward to more time in the future to practice, or move over to another profession. Perhaps I will teach music on my second career.

ParLawGod · by **ParLawGod** » 2020-08-25 10:21 p.m.

No musical breaks for me. Band Director by day, member of an Army band (National Guard), and weekend gigs. Most of the time I love it...sometimes I wish I worked in a cubicle! :) Basically to the point I can't listen to music in my car anymore...talk radio only just for a break.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2020-08-27 2:54 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Right now I'd bet that anyone who has been totally dependent on income from playing is in serious trouble.[/quote]

Yep. I was a full-time musician until the pandemic started, at which point I got a retail job as the gigs dried up. I'm still doing some remote recording and other work when I can, but it's certainly not enough to survive on by itself.

The short-term goal now is finding a day job that isn't totally miserable, at least until the world eventually returns to normal. But at least I have a paycheck.

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2020-08-28 5:11 p.m.

I freelanced for, like, five or six years after graduating from college, but that eventually took so much out of me that I had both a physical and mental breakdown. The final straw was when I was subbing at a performance of "Rent", and found that I couldn't get that lousy music out of my head one night when I tried to go to sleep.

Looking back, I now realize that I led i miserable life during these years; I never came home before 11pm and rarely got up before 9am, and between gigs I also took on conducting big bands, composing/arranging, combo gigs, amateur gigs, and students. I had had that schedule since long before being admissioned to college, and when I examined my life in counselling, I realized that I hadn't had a real (a true) vacation in close to twenty years.

Now I work part time as a teacher of music at a junior high/high school. It's a relief to have regular working hours, more permanent colleagues, while also having a lot of time for both practising, gigging (but not since the pandemy shutdowns were issued) and composing/arranging, and I can take vacations. I also find that my musicianship benefits from making my teaching basic but advanced, and I know that my instrument skills (I also sing and play the guitar and the piano at a fairly advanced level) give me an edge in my instructing of the individual students, that make them sense possibilities in the subject, rather than just another class to suffer.

I won't go back to fully freelancing again, but if I could win a place in an orchestra or a big band I would consider that. I am, however, quite content as it is now.

Cotboneman · by **Cotboneman** » 2020-09-08 12:51 a.m.

All I ever wanted to do with my two music degrees was to teach, though when I finished up my Masters program in Chicago in the mid-80's there weren't a heckuva lot of high school or middle school teaching jobs open. So I spent a year at Illinois Bell Telephone and then three years at a mortgage services firm, mostly for the benefits prior to getting married. By then I'd relocated to Arizona and found a full-time band teaching gig that I loved, and my now ex-wife worked in big Pharma for many years as a top drug rep, so we did okay money-wise. I had no reason to play professionally by then. Having retired from teaching now, I enjoy giving something back to my community through my volunteer groups, and at least through pre-Covid, it kept me busy. I have taken paid pit gigs for the Nutcracker, Sleeping Beauty and a few shows over the years, but generally I still don't play professionally.

Driswood · by **Driswood** » 2020-09-08 8:06 a.m.

I have many friends here in Florida who are near my age, 68. They have always been full time musicians, with much of their income "under the table". They never put anything away for retirement, and now they are hurting.

I was fortunate (call it lucky) to teach in a school system that had excellent salary and benefits. I retired at age 59 after 30 years with a good pension. Added social security at age 62. At 65, went on Medicare. Plus, I was able to play with quite a few bands and teach private lessons while teaching.

Flash forward to 2020. I'm one of the few people here who didn't lose any income during the pandemic, since it didn't affect my retirement income. If I had been a full time musician, I wonder if I would have had the discipline to invest for the future. I don't know.

Most of the guys I played with over the years did something else, and played on the side.

Valerone · by **Valerone** » 2020-10-07 10:41 p.m.

I'm currently a civil engineering consultant during the day here in a small city in Malaysia.

On weekends I coach low brass at a local school concert band. I also play for the state orchestra (both classical and jazz/pop) but we are mostly a semi-professional group. I'm also a sessionist for a few local bands around the city and have done some recordings for them as well as performing with them for gigs, music festivals and events. The payments for the gigs and even the state orchestra is very minimal of which I wouldn't be able to sustain on without my day job.

Despite the small return in terms of money for performing and teaching here, it is my hope that through this it will create more awareness for brass instruments and hopefully more people will come to like them and try to learn them - therefore thriving the brass music scene and also its appreciation here in my city.

I am also in the midst of creating a community big band group and possibly a brass quintet.

My days are usually occupied from morning till nights. Having a job as an engineering consultant is very taxing especially on the brain, but I'm thankful that at nights I get to phase out from my day work and play the trombone (unless the conductor requested me to do a hard solo piece...).

MKtuba · by **MKtuba** » 2022-10-30 10:07 a.m.

I am still pursuing my degree(s) and am not yet out of college, however I would like to weigh in.

I am pursuing a music performance degree, but I also double major in a non music field, Psychology. My reason for this is my passion for working in the mental health field. I have worked as a Direct Support Worker for most of my adult life (which I will admit hasn't been very long) and have discovered a real passion for this line of work. If the music performance/ collegiate teaching doesn't go the way I want it to, my plan is to work as a social worker and get a masters in Music therapy and enter that line of work. I encourage all of my friends to have some sort of backup plan, and really evaluate the amount of work it takes to foster a career in this industry.

Side note: while I have been someone that has ALWAYS advocated for undergraduates to pursue music ed, even if they plan on going into performance, I have had a change of heart. I started my degree with this same thought: I would get an undergrad in Music Ed and then get a performance degree (or 2) when I go to grad school. I came to the conclusion that should I need to default to my backup plan, I would not be happy as a public school teacher. I have no passion for teaching Band or Orchestra, and feel I would be doing a disservice to my hypothetical students by getting a job like this without actually caring about the work. If you are someone that can actually see themselves being a band director, then maybe this route is for you however I have determined that it is not right for me. Either way, I encourage people to either make the entrepreneurial decision of having a back up plan like this, or at least truly accept the fact that even with the perfect combination of hard work and dedication, you still may not get to have a career in music.

Take everything I said with a grain of salt, as I am still an undergrad with too much alone time to think about stuff like this.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2022-10-30 10:37 a.m.

[quote="MKtuba"]I am still pursuing my degree(s) and am not yet out of college, however I would like to weigh in.

I am pursuing a music performance degree, but I also double major in a non music field, Psychology.[/quote]

Don't worry about thinking of Psychology as a "backup". There are many musicians who both have a thriving musical career and a second, sometimes non-musical career. The biggest thing that makes this work IMHO is the schedules. If your non-musical job involves a lot of travel, especially short-notice travel, that makes it really tough to make things work. If your schedule is stable, the 2-career thing is a lot easier to manage.

MKtuba · by **MKtuba** » 2022-10-30 10:41 a.m.

Thank you for the affirmation, it really means a lot!

I take no shame in having a day job right now, and really won't be disappointed if I have to keep one for the rest of my life. At the end of the day, if I can still make high quality art and share it with the world that is what matters. I would of course love to be paid to do it, but if that isn't in the cards then I am happy I can still put food on the table and a roof over my head.

dylanmwolfe · by **dylanmwolfe** » 2023-03-05 1:36 a.m.

I work for a local band and orchestra retail supplier. We focus primarily on student level rental instruments, but also have a pretty decent stock of intermediate and professional instruments as well. I started in sales while I was in school for music and moved up to a management position after graduating last year. I have to say I have learned A LOT about gear, history, and the instrument market I would have never known without working at this store. I've also been able to see a side of the musical market that was hidden to me before- manufacturers, vendors, retailers, and the whole process behind it all. I have my evenings free to gig or rehearse or do whatever else life has in store, and I get a reliable paycheck every two weeks, paid time off, benefits, etc. I also have much less free time in my day to practice, listen, and focus on my musical development. It has been a real struggle to fit in as much time on my horn as I would like to on a day to day basis within a 40-50 hour work week.

I personally know many musicians who support themselves through solely music, I know others who have supplemental incomes like DoorDash, etc. that work as much as they want/need to make ends meet alongside the rotation of seasonal gigs. It really all depends on you as a player. I find that those who don't have a day job have more free time to develop musically (although I know many who efficiently fit a regular practice/listening routine along with their day job). Whether you use that free time to your advantage is up to you.

I don't know how much this answers your question, but I thought I would give my thoughts.

Best!

Alzitra · by **Alzitra** » 2023-03-06 7:57 p.m.

Personally, I would love if I could live off of gigs alone, but I have so many bills to pay that it's just not reasonable to do so. At least my job is chill enough to let me leave early to make it to gigs and rehearsals most of the time.

Eclifton · by **Eclifton** » 2023-03-11 4:03 p.m.

Each time I've moved to a new city I had a day job at first, sometimes music related, sometimes not. When I moved to Nashville, I drove Lyft for the first six months or so before teaching picked up and I was able to rely on that steady income in addition to playing work.

Then when covid shut everything down, I picked up a job at a liquor store, I've always had an interest in craft beer and spirits so it was actually really enjoyable. At times I actually miss having an outlet away from the music business, but that has just lead me to cultivate hobbies like golf and running to have a community outside of my musician friends and colleagues. Finding the right balance for you is key.

maherbone · by **maherbone** » 2023-03-14 4:15 p.m.

I work for a law firm as a paralegal. Had majored in music but after a few years I wanted a W2 job with benefits and ended up with this firm. No complaints though, I get to work remote and am able to pick up the horn a bit throughout the day. Now I gig for fun and extra money. It's nice honestly and has taken the pressure off a bit. I am getting serious again playing wise so down the road who knows what opportunities will come about. I'm just grateful to have the 9-5 right now.

dukesboneman · by **dukesboneman** » 2023-03-19 7:08 a.m.

My "Day Job" was a High School Band Director in Rochester and Buffalo, NY City Schools. But I always played every chance I got.

I taught for 35 years and retired. I now play pretty much full time and love it but My health care and pension make that possible

Ozzlefinch · by **Ozzlefinch** » 2023-03-19 10:51 a.m.

Wait, what? You can make money playing music?

musicofnote · 2023-03-19 12:01 p.m.

content deleted by author

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2023-03-19 7:50 p.m.

I’ve personally never made a dime from playing any horn. Only ever played in church bands and ensembles and community bands, but that’s fine with me. My strongest instrument is euphonium, and you know what they say about that. (In case you don’t, what’s the difference between a large pizza and a euphonium player? A large pizza can feed a family of 4!) I do it for the fun of music and broadening my horizons. Income came from 25+ years in a pulp and paper mill, and in later life as a home inspector. Side benefit of that job; found a decent piano to replace a not so decent one at home. Daughter is a very talented piano and French horn player. She decided against the college route after the first year…she realized soon enough she didn’t want to make a career out of full time playing or teaching. She has done some instruction, mainly to kids of family and friends. Now sadly she only plays maybe once or twice a year in a brass ensemble at church, or to accompany one of my horns on the grand piano.

Macbone1 · by **Macbone1** » 2023-03-20 10:34 a.m.

I committed to the military band route at age 23, so music was full time PLUS for me until age 48. There was SOME off duty gigging but we honestly didn't have a lot of time for it. Hardly anyone played anywhere off duty for free, unless it was for very good friends or family.

I prepared myself for full time office work after the Air Force and my playing has been largely unpaid stuff ever since. But I get to pick and choose the type of groups I join, which is important to me.

Leanit · by **Leanit** » 2023-03-21 10:25 a.m.

In San Francisco, more people make a living pitching for the Giants than by playing trombone. Yet people send kids to conservatory like it's a realistic career path. Unless you're 1 in 1000, you need a job too. Play for fun, get better all the time, and get paid every chance you can to keep the profession from becoming completely volunteer.

tbdana · 2023-04-09 2:27 p.m.

[quote="Leanit"]In San Francisco, more people make a living pitching for the Giants than by playing trombone.[/quote]

This quote is sad, but probably pretty accurate, substantively if not literally. Even amazing players in the major music cities have a very insecure career just playing trombone for a living. It can be done, but you have to be good, lucky, know the right people, and be in the right places at the right times.

I played professionally for 20 years, no day job, no teaching gig. Just freelance playing. It was a pretty insecure life.

mazman · by **mazman** » 2023-07-28 12:28 a.m.

I do have a job as financial advisor outside of music. I’ve been playing trombone for 40 years, without interruption. I feel I play at a fairly decent level. I studied all through my collegiate years, but I wasn’t a music major. I just wanted some easy As. In college, a made a bunch of money subbing for various brass choirs on little notice. My dad was a high school band director, and my love of music runs very deep. I’ve also honed my skills at guitar for the past 36 years.

I have been playing as a professional steelpan player for 14 years. I have a steel band with my wife, who is a music teacher at a public school. Steelband pays a lot better than trombone, and I get to pick the gigs I want to play. I feel like I’m the luckiest person alive.

balkansobranie · by **balkansobranie** » 2023-07-28 10:02 a.m.

Just found this thread and new to the forum so thought I'd put in my experience.

I started playing the Trombone when I was 10, and after finishing school studied Trombone for 6 years in further education and ended up getting a degree in Trombone performance from a top London conservatoire. I didn't enjoy conservatoire very much and decided a career in music was not for me. I enjoyed playing solo Trombone and not playing in orchestra or band, and therefore (as I was not in the same league as C. Lindberg et al) there was no chance of making it pay. I didn't fancy music teaching either.

I did intend to keep playing but as my career developed and I got married, I played less and less until about 20 years ago I stopped completely as I didn't enjoy witnessing my own decline in playing ability. That is perhaps the tough part of taking a day job, it can severly impact your practice time and if you have been studying at a conservatoire then your playing standard will likely suffer which can be depressing.

I now own three businesses (non-musical) and am well enough established that I finally have enough time to practice and enjoy playing again - and a detached house on large grounds so I don't upset any neighbours. It has been wonderful to rediscover the Trombone and feel no pressure to do anymore than just please myself.

I take my hat off to anyone who makes it in the music business - it is incredibly tough. Of the 20 or so excellent Trombonists that I saw pass through my conservatoire during my time there, not a single one has a full time job in an Orchestra, and only one player (who changed his focus to Jazz) has had what I would call a successful top flight career. A couple are freelance players and teachers, but the vast majority moved to different careers.

I'm therefore very happy to have made the tough call early on so that I could do something else succesfuly, but perhaps a bit said it led to me not playing for a couple of decades.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2023-07-28 6:56 p.m.

[quote="balkansobranie"]Just found this thread and new to the forum so thought I'd put in my experience.

I started playing the Trombone when I was 10, and after finishing school studied Trombone for 6 years in further education and ended up getting a degree in Trombone performance from a top London conservatoire. I didn't enjoy conservatoire very much and decided a career in music was not for me. I enjoyed playing solo Trombone and not playing in orchestra or band, and therefore (as I was not in the same league as C. Lindberg et al) there was no chance of making it pay. I didn't fancy music teaching either.

I did intend to keep playing but as my career developed and I got married, I played less and less until about 20 years ago I stopped completely as I didn't enjoy witnessing my own decline in playing ability. That is perhaps the tough part of taking a day job, it can severly impact your practice time and if you have been studying at a conservatoire then your playing standard will likely suffer which can be depressing.

I now own three businesses (non-musical) and am well enough established that I finally have enough time to practice and enjoy playing again - and a detached house on large grounds so I don't upset any neighbours. It has been wonderful to rediscover the Trombone and feel no pressure to do anymore than just please myself.

I take my hat off to anyone who makes it in the music business - it is incredibly tough. Of the 20 or so excellent Trombonists that I saw pass through my conservatoire during my time there, not a single one has a full time job in an Orchestra, and only one player (who changed his focus to Jazz) has had what I would call a successful top flight career. A couple are freelance players and teachers, but the vast majority moved to different careers.

I'm therefore very happy to have made the tough call early on so that I could do something else succesfuly, but perhaps a bit said it led to me not playing for a couple of decades.[/quote]
Welcome to the forum. I think many here share the same story. I did the same as you. I also studied music at collage level at the Royal Accademy of Music in Stockholm just after Christian Lindbergh graduated there. He acctually was at the school occationally during my first year so I bumped into him but never knew him. He was just in the start of his career. We all had a lot of respect for him.

After four years I got a masters degree MFAE/trombone and became a teacher/freelancer for 13 years before I changed my mind and educated myself to be a computer programmer and switched career completely. From the ones I knew (except Christian who I only knew of) ONE became a very repitable teacher in Germany, professor Jonas Bylund. Two bass trombonists work at the Royal Opera House, one tenor trobonist is second trombone in Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra. One tenor player, my best friande from college moved abroad to be first trombone in a Polish orchestra. Yet another play 2:nd trombone in the Army Music Corp in Stockholm. There happend to be a lot of very talanted players in Stockholm at that time and many did infact win additions and I believe Christian inspired and was a reason to try harder. I think standard in the 80-ies just after Christian was probably the highest there have ever been in :geek: Stockholm. I don't think there have ever been more tromboneplayers studying at the same time there after, and good ones they were. We had basically two types of programs back then. One was in perfomance and one was in teaching. We were only three who went the teaching program. We were not in the same legue as the rest. We had a lot of other courses too and couldn't play trombone ecxlusive all days :mrgreen:

Still I wonder were the rest of all good students went who came after us that studied in the 80-ies. Where are the ones that studied between 1990-2023? There are not enough jobs and they who studied in the 80-ies were in the right age and graduated just in time to fill the chairs of the older generation who retired. The ones who graduated in the 80-ies got many of these jobs. After 1988 when I graduated I only know of ONE really good player who studied there and won a job and that's Håkan Björkman who now is 1st with the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra. What about the rest who graduated after 1988? Now even to get a job in teaching is hard to find. Maybe they start another career all of them.

Like you I'm now in a position in life I can practice and play more than ever, and I have a financial situation that also admits that. I've noticed I'm improving again and acctually I'm better now at 60 than ever, and still improving. Music is fun and my ambition is to be as good as possible and to participate only in contexts that brings me joy. I don't bother about competition anymore, I just want to beat one person and that's Me.

/Tom

balkansobranie · by **balkansobranie** » 2023-07-30 6:21 a.m.

Very interesting to hear of the situation in a different country. I was around 12 or 13 when I first heard of Christian Lindberg and was given his album "Romantic Trombone Concertos" - it was a big inspiration for me. I think he did inspire many who were learning in the very late 1980's and 1990's.

[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="balkansobranie" post_id="216256" time="1690552965" user_id="16836">
Just found this thread and new to the forum so thought I'd put in my experience.

I started playing the Trombone when I was 10, and after finishing school studied Trombone for 6 years in further education and ended up getting a degree in Trombone performance from a top London conservatoire. I didn't enjoy conservatoire very much and decided a career in music was not for me. I enjoyed playing solo Trombone and not playing in orchestra or band, and therefore (as I was not in the same league as C. Lindberg et al) there was no chance of making it pay. I didn't fancy music teaching either.

I did intend to keep playing but as my career developed and I got married, I played less and less until about 20 years ago I stopped completely as I didn't enjoy witnessing my own decline in playing ability. That is perhaps the tough part of taking a day job, it can severly impact your practice time and if you have been studying at a conservatoire then your playing standard will likely suffer which can be depressing.

I now own three businesses (non-musical) and am well enough established that I finally have enough time to practice and enjoy playing again - and a detached house on large grounds so I don't upset any neighbours. It has been wonderful to rediscover the Trombone and feel no pressure to do anymore than just please myself.

I take my hat off to anyone who makes it in the music business - it is incredibly tough. Of the 20 or so excellent Trombonists that I saw pass through my conservatoire during my time there, not a single one has a full time job in an Orchestra, and only one player (who changed his focus to Jazz) has had what I would call a successful top flight career. A couple are freelance players and teachers, but the vast majority moved to different careers.

I'm therefore very happy to have made the tough call early on so that I could do something else succesfuly, but perhaps a bit said it led to me not playing for a couple of decades.[/quote]
Welcome to the forum. I think many here share the same story. I did the same as you. I also studied music at collage level at the Royal Accademy of Music in Stockholm just after Christian Lindbergh graduated there. He acctually was at the school occationally during my first year so I bumped into him but never knew him. He was just in the start of his career. We all had a lot of respect for him.

After four years I got a masters degree MFAE/trombone and became a teacher/freelancer for 13 years before I changed my mind and educated myself to be a computer programmer and switched career completely. From the ones I knew (except Christian who I only knew of) ONE became a very repitable teacher in Germany, professor Jonas Bylund. Two bass trombonists work at the Royal Opera House, one tenor trobonist is second trombone in Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra. One tenor player, my best friande from college moved abroad to be first trombone in a Polish orchestra. Yet another play 2:nd trombone in the Army Music Corp in Stockholm. There happend to be a lot of very talanted players in Stockholm at that time and many did infact win additions and I believe Christian inspired and was a reason to try harder. I think standard in the 80-ies just after Christian was probably the highest there have ever been in :geek: Stockholm. I don't think there have ever been more tromboneplayers studying at the same time there after, and good ones they were. We had basically two types of programs back then. One was in perfomance and one was in teaching. We were only three who went the teaching program. We were not in the same legue as the rest. We had a lot of other courses too and couldn't play trombone ecxlusive all days :mrgreen:

Still I wonder were the rest of all good students went who came after us that studied in the 80-ies. Where are the ones that studied between 1990-2023? There are not enough jobs and they who studied in the 80-ies were in the right age and graduated just in time to fill the chairs of the older generation who retired. The ones who graduated in the 80-ies got many of these jobs. After 1988 when I graduated I only know of ONE really good player who studied there and won a job and that's Håkan Björkman who now is 1st with the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra. What about the rest who graduated after 1988? Now even to get a job in teaching is hard to find. Maybe they start another career all of them.

Like you I'm now in a position in life I can practice and play more than ever, and I have a financial situation that also admits that. I've noticed I'm improving again and acctually I'm better now at 60 than ever, and still improving. Music is fun and my ambition is to be as good as possible and to participate only in contexts that brings me joy. I don't bother about competition anymore, I just want to beat one person and that's Me.

/Tom
</QUOTE>

walldaja · by **walldaja** » 2023-07-30 1:17 p.m.

Music was my lifeline in high school (trombone), right up to the last week of school when the director kicked me out of the band because I couldn't come to a no-notice practice he called for that evening (69). I had to work. Sold my horn (Besson 10-10) to my best friend in high school and pretty much left music cold. Before i quit I played in band, orchestra, and dance band in high school and the local Salvation Army corps band, state band, state youth band, and territorial youth band. While in the SA I often doubled on euphonium and cornet.

I remained away from music for a little over a year then would borrow a trumpet from the chaplain in my post in Germany. Never was far away from thinking about playing--when singing in church would "finger" the notes so I never lost the relationship between the notes and fingerings / positions.

Returned to the states and bought a trumpet (72) (store easier in US Army wall lockers than t-bones). I would putter with the horn sometimes with a friend at nursing homes where my wife and her crew visited for service credit while in college.

Pretty soon my playing centered around Easter and Christmas. Eventually I sold the trumpet because I was bored playing alone. I separated from the US Army and went to college and eventually lost time for practice (new born at home). Was commissioned into the USAF via ROTC (80) and at my first station we joined a church where the music director was looking for brass players. Found an old nickel Selmer cornet in a pawn shop and played for the next 14 years--again back to the Christmas / Easter routine.

Went to Air Command and Staff College in 94 and found myself with lots of time on my hands. Ended up joining a praise band that had regular rehearsals and performance opportunities. Spent all of 94 / 95 playing daily. Even would double on trombone from time to time (borrowed from a friend). I vowed to practice daily and find places to play after that experience successfully. Kept getting better at trumpet but always wanted to return to trombone.

I retired in 2001 and rented a Yamaha 354 for a summer. I really enjoyed playing it (much more so than trumpet) but only found opportunities to play trumpet in a brass quintet, musical pit in plays, and a small brass band. Primary instrument was trumpet / flugel horn but would double on trombone as needed.

My wife retired in 2018 and we moved to Columbus. There seemed to be plenty of trumpet players around so I changed to trombone (bought my first Bb / F horn) and played in a large community band. Only option was playing cornet in a brass band but wasn't into the competition thing. The next year I started playing in a big band associated with our community band and really got back into trombone full time.

The US military was my day job until retirement now I play whenever I can and really enjoy it. Miss playing in a brass quintet but swing music is a lot more fun to me.

JamesSp · by **JamesSp** » 2023-09-20 11:39 p.m.

Feel like I probably have a relevant experience.

I was never a "natural" at trombone but had a good work ethic when I studied. I took it very seriously, I won contests, played in professional orchestras most trained musicians would recognise the names of in several countries, and studied with many teachers that would definitely be recognisable names to anyone who plays trombone.

To date I have passed 5 auditions (also been in several finals AND had total failures) for full time professional performance positions. The first one actually offered me the job, but I turned it down because I was young and wanted to do more things before settling. 2 others were positions I wasn't really interested in seriously, but wanted to keep my audition chops competitive. For both of those, I couldn't work out what I considered favourable trial conditions with the orchestras, so I didn't go through with them. The other two were jobs I REALLY wanted, but I failed the organised initial trial period for both.

At one stage of my music life I was making a lot more money than I needed through a combination of freelance performance and teaching of various levels. But, it wasn't a sustainable life. At one stage there was probably 6 months I didn't get more than 6 hours sleep a night. I couldn't have done that as an ongoing career.

I had never made any money doing anything that wasn't trombone related (performance or teaching), so when I stepped back from my schedule there wasn't any other industry that was interested in seriously hiring me with zero experience.

Now? I work in a restaurant basically washing dishes for close to minimum wage. I'm grateful they gave me the work, they didn't care about my collection of music qualifications and experience. But they are flexible with the few freelance commitments I still do so im very grateful to have regualar work. My restaurant work is only in the evenings so I still practice every day.

I am really a bass trombone specialist, but took my first professional tenor audition recently for something to do with a new focus. I thought I was pretty ordinary at it, never played bolero or tuba mirum in an audition context, but i made runner up at the audition. That was great, until you remember runner up still means you didn't get the job.

Do I regret anything? I dont know.... probably not. I've had some amazing music experiences and seen the world through music almost always on someone else's dollar. I never thought I would be washing dishes, but auditions are weird. Something might work out if I stay in shape, which I can with this dishwashing job. Never a guarantee though, doesn't matter how good you are at trombone.

I often think about what I would tell a younger version of myself if I could. I honestly don't know. If having money is super important to you, don't do music. Music is always there in some capacity if you want it. I dont think I'd tell myself not to do it seriously though. I dont hate my life. Just wish I had a music position anyone else who does music wishes too! Haha!

JetMech · by **JetMech** » 2023-10-01 9:23 a.m.

I had started down the path of playing/teaching for a living in college and quickly found that I lacked the maturity to really establish myself and my "brand". I ended up going to school to be an aircraft mechanic, and that's been what pays the bills for 15 years. I'm just starting to play again and the absence along with not banking on it for income has renewed my love of music. The LA music scene is highly competitive and it soured me on music as a business a little bit.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2023-10-04 11:09 a.m.

It's been a while since I have had a job that wasn't related to music, but working as a music program administrator means that a lot of the work I do isn't directly related to creating or teaching music.

But if you consider a freelance musician, an awful lot of what that musician needs to do to be successful is similar. Successful freelancers often book their own gigs, do their own marketing, hunt for performing opportunities, track down grants and donors, and otherwise do a lot of things that aren't directly related to creating or teaching music.

Harrison's discussion on what it's like to be a military musician seems apropos. In my opinion, he is a full-time musician, even though much of the work he ends up doing for his job isn't directly related to playing trombone. If you're going to be a successful freelancer you're going to find similarly.

There is a certain mindset that makes us lean towards the idea that being a full-time musician means that the quality of your music is better. Many of the musicians I work with have day jobs outside of music, and they sound great and are a pleasure to work with. Some of the full time players I work with are successful musicians, but not always the best, because they are so good at all the peripheral skills that come with the territory. And often the part-time musicians are more fun to play with because they don't take whatever comes up in order to make ends meet, whereas some of the full-time players are more jaded or just bored with playing the gig by now.

Dave

Samit2011 · by **Samit2011** » 2023-10-04 11:38 a.m.

I originally pursued a career in music but after my undergrad I took a year off to decide what I wanted to do and see what a full time freelance music career looked like. After that year, I settled on a taking the computer science path and became a software developer. That was in 2019 and now in 2023 I've worked my way to a career in product management and actively (and happily) work as a product manager.

Funny enough, my music career seems to be thriving more now then I was when I dedicated all my time to it. I currently have a contract with a nearby high school to teach weekly lessons to their trombone players, a weekly paid gig with a local church and play with a couple local groups (1 paid and another unpaid). Living in major cities has become quite ridiculous from a cost of living standpoint and unless I had one of the very lucrative orchestra jobs, I think it would be very difficult to make ends meat as a pure freelance musician.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2023-10-05 5:57 p.m.

Jobs i've had before my music career and during my music career include(d):

Delivery driver

Dog sitter/walker

Lifeguard

Barback

Librarian

Carpet Cleaner

I still delivery drive & Dog watch/walk when my schedule allows for extra income.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2023-10-05 8:19 p.m.

My father was a Mharine Band trombonist who retired as a Drum Major after 22 years in The Corps, so I traveled the world growing up and was exposed to music in a big way. I joined the Marine Corps while a Jr in high school, but open contract. Could have ended up in any MOS, but while on delayed entry until HS graduation, I audtioned and made the band field. During my 12 years of active duty I served as a Drill Instructor at Partis Island twice. Got out of The Corps and ran two businesses (photographer and locksmith) while gigging 3 to 5 times a week. Actually made the majority of my income from music.

Went through a bad divorce and moved back home to Alabama at age 43 and worked as a CO in a state maximum security prison for 12 years. No gigging during those years of 16 hour days and rotating shifts. Retired on disability in 2014 and jumped back into the music scene. I play in a big band, R&B group and in the pit of the local theater group. I also teach trombone at our Center For Cultural Arts.

So, except for those 12 years in prison (as an Officer - NOT an inmate) I've made a good living playing music since I was 17. I'm 64 now and am playing better than I ever did as a young man. Mostly because like when I was in the Marine Corps, I play every day and have youngsters I have to keep up with.

When I became disabled, music is what kept me going and staying as physically active as I am able. Living in a small town, this group has been a lifeline to what's happening out there in the biz and a wealth of knowledge. The only forum members I've met in person are Irvin Karan and Doug Elliott. I'd like to meet any others in Alabama and Georgia, so give me a holler and let's get together.

Photos are of Dad and me, 25 years apart.

TomWest · by **TomWest** » 2023-10-05 8:46 p.m.

Tow truck driver. There’s a lot of entitled people who don’t think that traffic laws apply to them. And they sure can get mouthy when I tell them what my services are going to cost. I laugh all the way to the bank.

LetItSlide · by **LetItSlide** » 2024-07-25 3:16 p.m.

The idea of making music my source of income never fully formed in my mind, despite dedicating much of my time and energy to music between the ages of 12 and 22. The final decision happened when I was sitting with two graduate assistantship letters, one in each hand. One letter was from a music department, the other was from a computer science department. Guess which one I picked with my young wife and year-and-a-half-old daughter looking at me while I pondered how I will be able to provide for them.

A dream I had when college age was to one day have a castle (or a house would do) where I could play good trombones all I wanted with no one complaining. That dream did come true.

cb56 · by **cb56** » 2024-07-25 4:32 p.m.

Before I retired I had a day job that paid good WITH two important things, retirement plan and lifetime health insurance. I'm very happy now about that now that I'm old and retired.

There we're times when I was younger when I was jobless when gigging paid my rent and bought groceries but it was a tight squeeze.

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