I’m wondering if Bach started experimenting with making Bach 42s late in the New York era before the move to Mt Vernon (early 1950’s). Possibly labeling the bells as Mt Vernon, even though they were probably made between 1950-1952. Does anyone have any insight on this?

I don’t think there are any pre-Vernon bells marked 42. There are very rare NY 36s in 8.5" though.

Bach didn’t even consider making the 42 until Robert Lambert was already in the CSO asked him to make him a large bore instrument, and by that point Bach was in Mt. Vernon. Bach felt that the 36 was the best instrument for an orchestral trombonist, and he only developed the 42 after players requested it.

[quote="chromebone"]Bach didn’t even consider making the 42 until Robert Lambert was already in the CSO asked him to make him a large bore instrument, and by that point Bach was in Mt. Vernon. Bach felt that the 36 was the best instrument for an orchestral trombonist, and he only developed the 42 after players requested it.[/quote]

And that's where it all went in the ditch. My distaste for tubby tenors might mean I was born too late.

Yup, an 8.5 inch NY 36 or a 40, 45 Bass (tenor/bass) is what you’ll find from that period.

Pre MV large bore Bachs have some weird specs. Older (1930s) 36s had wide span tuning slides and narrower slides with no parts save for the bell matching up to current parts.

Think of NY Bach production as a custom shop, much like Shires in the earlier days. Through my frirndship with a serious collector I have had the priviledge to play 3! 40Bs or varoous vintages. One had an 8.5" bell 2 had the listed 9" bell, all were .525-.547" dual bore with a fairly narrow slide width. The throats on 40Bs are fast and close to 45 bell throats.

45s had a single .547 slide (eventually it became the 42 slide) but narrower. 46s had the dual .547-.562" slides and bigger than 9" bells (9.25 and 9.5", I own a NY45 single bore with a 9.5" G bell),

NY 50s early on had 9" bells, later having bigger flairs.. I have seen wirh my own eyes 50s with 9, 9.25, 9.5, 9.75 (common on MV), a 10" (i own a MV with french bead 10" flair!), 10.5 and seen a pic of an 11". Red brass 50s were available up until Elkhart production, along with gold brass and yellow brass.

Red brass 36 and 42 flairs exist but are very rare, red brass 50s and particularly 45s seem to be more common.

There are 9" 42 flairs made in MV and Elkhart production, also very rare.

So a 42 is a 36 with a 45 slide added to it. This is reflected in the measurements of the bell section. Small choke points in the neckpipe match a .525 slide better than a .547 slide, hence why people get M neckpipes to open up Bach 42s!

40Bs with straight bore .547s sound huge! Their design is not like that of 36s. The .525" upper tube added resistance and brightness etc... designing working horns is hard, Instrument design seems to have become fairly standardized in the last 80 years or so. We all have expectations of what symphonic trombones should sound like. Its hard to reinvent things. Edwards succeeded at breaking out of copying Bach and Conns, as many modern Continental European makes are today.

So to end. In the late 1930s you could get a 36 with an 8" bell, a 9" bell 40B, A 9" bell 45 (used as a bass most of the time) and a 9" bell 50B. So you could have a section of all 9" belled Bach trombones, a 40, 45 and 50! I would love to hear that, too bad they are so old, finding all of those in one place in good working order would be difficult. Both my NY45 and MV50 need new valves...

Want a New York 42? Find an 8.5" 36 and swap out the receiver for a modern 42B and use a 42 slide. Or, if you know a fine machinist have a 36 taper machined out to fit on a 42 slide tube and leave the 36B parts alone.

There are my late night thoughts

[quote="octavposaune"]Pre MV large bore Bachs have some weird specs. Older (1930s) 36s had wide span tuning slides and narrower slides with no parts save for the bell matching up to current parts.

Think of NY Bach production as a custom shop, much like Shires in the earlier days. Through my frirndship with a serious collector I have had the priviledge to play 3! 40Bs or varoous vintages. One had an 8.5" bell 2 had the listed 9" bell, all were .525-.547" dual bore with a fairly narrow slide width. The throats on 40Bs are fast and close to 45 bell throats.

45s had a single .547 slide (eventually it became the 42 slide) but narrower. 46s had the dual .547-.562" slides and bigger than 9" bells (9.25 and 9.5", I own a NY45 single bore with a 9.5" G bell),

NY 50s early on had 9" bells, later having bigger flairs.. I have seen wirh my own eyes 50s with 9, 9.25, 9.5, 9.75 (common on MV), a 10" (i own a MV with french bead 10" flair!), 10.5 and seen a pic of an 11". Red brass 50s were available up until Elkhart production, along with gold brass and yellow brass.

Red brass 36 and 42 flairs exist but are very rare, red brass 50s and particularly 45s seem to be more common.

There are 9" 42 flairs made in MV and Elkhart production, also very rare.

So a 42 is a 36 with a 45 slide added to it. This is reflected in the measurements of the bell section. Small choke points in the neckpipe match a .525 slide better than a .547 slide, hence why people get M neckpipes to open up Bach 42s!

40Bs with straight bore .547s sound huge! Their design is not like that of 36s. The .525" upper tube added resistance and brightness etc... designing working horns is hard, Instrument design seems to have become fairly standardized in the last 80 years or so. We all have expectations of what symphonic trombones should sound like. Its hard to reinvent things. Edwards succeeded at breaking out of copying Bach and Conns, as many modern Continental European makes are today.

So to end. In the late 1930s you could get a 36 with an 8" bell, a 9" bell 40B, A 9" bell 45 (used as a bass most of the time) and a 9" bell 50B. So you could have a section of all 9" belled Bach trombones, a 40, 45 and 50! I would love to hear that, too bad they are so old, finding all of those in one place in good working order would be difficult. Both my NY45 and MV50 need new valves...

Want a New York 42? Find an 8.5" 36 and swap out the receiver for a modern 42B and use a 42 slide. Or, if you know a fine machinist have a 36 taper machined out to fit on a 42 slide tube and leave the 36B parts alone.

There are my late night thoughts[/quote]
Thanks ,Benn ! You have just written the manual ! <EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>

Trond

[quote="Leanit"]<QUOTE author="chromebone" post_id="268890" time="1741019540" user_id="3008">
Bach didn’t even consider making the 42 until Robert Lambert was already in the CSO asked him to make him a large bore instrument, and by that point Bach was in Mt. Vernon. Bach felt that the 36 was the best instrument for an orchestral trombonist, and he only developed the 42 after players requested it.[/quote]

And that's where it all went in the ditch. My distaste for tubby tenors might mean I was born too late.
</QUOTE>

I tend to think the problem is the player and not the equipment. I’ve heard many players play 42s with pure focused air streams and really make those horns sound alive.

[quote="BrianJohnston"]I tend to think the problem is the player and not the equipment. I’ve heard many players play 42s with pure focused air streams and really make those horns sound alive.[/quote]

I agree. I'm crazy about Bach 42s. It was my first pro horn my senior year of HS, so it feels native to me. Make sure the ports are aligned and all slides are lubricated, and most of them will sing for you. Of course, there are a few dogs.