25%Tariffs

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2025-03-04 3:31 a.m.

“ What's that he says? 25% tariffs coming soon on European merchandise into the US? Sorry, no more European brass instruments for us. Ain't nobody got time for that. We'll see...” Quote from The Hornguys Facebook page <EMOJI seq="1fae3" tseq="1fae3">🫣</EMOJI>

Could be disastrous for instrument choice and availability <EMOJI seq="1f92f" tseq="1f92f">🤯</EMOJI>

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2025-03-04 3:56 a.m.

[quote="Fidbone"]“ What's that he says? 25% tariffs coming soon on European merchandise into the US? Sorry, no more European brass instruments for us. Ain't nobody got time for that. We'll see...” Quote from The Hornguys Facebook page <EMOJI seq="1fae3" tseq="1fae3">🫣</EMOJI>

Could be disastrous for instrument choice and availability <EMOJI seq="1f92f" tseq="1f92f">🤯</EMOJI>[/quote]

Among many other things - cars, clothing, gas, food, appliances...

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2025-03-04 4:06 a.m.

[quote="Kingfan"]<QUOTE author="Fidbone" post_id="268992" time="1741077093" user_id="3132">
“ What's that he says? 25% tariffs coming soon on European merchandise into the US? Sorry, no more European brass instruments for us. Ain't nobody got time for that. We'll see...” Quote from The Hornguys Facebook page <EMOJI seq="1fae3" tseq="1fae3">🫣</EMOJI>

Could be disastrous for instrument choice and availability <EMOJI seq="1f92f" tseq="1f92f">🤯</EMOJI>[/quote]

Among many other things - cars, clothing, gas, food, appliances...
</QUOTE>

And the Big Orange baby alienating the US from Europe of course <EMOJI seq="1f635-1f4ab" tseq="1f635-200d-1f4ab">😵‍💫</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f92f" tseq="1f92f">🤯</EMOJI>

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2025-03-04 6:50 a.m.

Guess I’m not ordering that Thein Contra after all :shuffle:

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2025-03-04 7:08 a.m.

It goes further than that. Nickel silver is not milled in the US anymore. It comes from Germany or China. Minibal ball joints, Germany. Meinlschmidt valves , Germany

The cost of simply making an instrument in the US has risen because the cost of brass has increased markedly. One example. The caps and rings I machine for my instruments have gone from a material cost of $7.00 a piece, to $17.00 a piece! That's just one part! This is going to be bad.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-04 7:15 a.m.

Made in the USA.

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2025-03-04 7:33 a.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]Made in the USA.[/quote]

Tariffs- Made in the USA.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2025-03-04 7:35 a.m.

Maybe we can all play Russian horns.

hornbuilder · 2025-03-04 7:51 a.m.

Much of the material to make a brass instrument is not produced in the USA. It doesn't matter what brand you're talking about. So saying "Made in USA", while I absolutely support that ideal, is an ill informed, simplistic view point.

LeTromboniste · 2025-03-04 7:57 a.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]Made in the USA.[/quote]

That's great! Only made in the USA. So, no more new student-level instruments for schools and kids. That next Marine Band side-by-side concert with kids might have to be played on kazoos, but hey, at least it's not going to be DEI!

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2025-03-04 8:01 a.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]Made in the USA.[/quote]

You’re about to get an education on how global supply chains work.

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2025-03-04 8:03 a.m.

[quote="chromebone"]<QUOTE author="tromboneVan" post_id="269008" time="1741090556" user_id="6540">
Made in the USA.[/quote]

You’re about to get an education on global supply chains work.
</QUOTE>

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2025-03-04 8:05 a.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]Maybe we can all play Russian horns.[/quote]

Made from materials sourced from China

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-04 8:06 a.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]Much of the material to make a brass instrument is not produced in the USA. It doesn't matter what brand you're talking about. So saying "Made in USA", while I absolutely support that ideal, is an ill.informed, simplistic view point.[/quote]

The notion that tariffs are permanent is short-sighted, ill informed, and simplistic. The USA has effectively been paying unfairly with VAT for many years. We are doing "reciprocal" tariffs. The comment "Made in the USA" is in relation to the fact that the point is to negotiate better trade deals, part of which involves manufacturing (in other industries as well), and sourcing materials from less exploitative sources and avoiding bad import deals, or negotiating better ones. Sourcing materials where there are not unfair trade deals, so that there is actually an incentive to make everything like we used to in the USA. The point in many instances (we are not just talking about trombones and brass instruments) is to source everything we can either in the United States, negotiate more fair trade deals, and bring manufacturing back to the United States. Have a little faith. Read a book and relax. I recommend "The Art of the Deal".

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-04 8:22 a.m.

[quote="chromebone"]<QUOTE author="tromboneVan" post_id="269008" time="1741090556" user_id="6540">
Made in the USA.[/quote]

You’re about to get an education on how global supply chains work.
</QUOTE>

You act like this is an end game and not just the opening. That tariffs are not permanent. The point is to negotiate for reciprocity. The point is fairer deals... we have been dealing with crap deals for your entire lifetime. Have a little faith.. either way we are going to SEE how it plays out. So much pessimism and condescension, but zero faith (we know). Thing is it never goes the way you think it will.. Will check back in later, let's see what happens.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2025-03-04 8:26 a.m.

Had a large medicine cabinet at Home Depot in my on line shopping cart at $269, free shipping to home, for a month. I went to pull the trigger just now and it had a "price adjustment" to $359 plus $50 shipping. Where is it made? China!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-03-04 8:31 a.m.

tromboneVan, look up the Smoot-Hawley Act and see what the consequence was.

Also, our Dear Leader renegotiated NAFTA into his own trade act to avoid tariffs with our major trading partners. Looks like treaties have no meaning to him.

officermayo · 2025-03-04 8:38 a.m.

Here we go again (sigh). <EMOJI seq="1f62c" tseq="1f62c">😬</EMOJI>

If you'd like to avoid the crap, check this out.

https://www.facebook.com/share/g/1F2DyDKMFW/

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2025-03-04 8:39 a.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]It goes further than that. Nickel silver is not milled in the US anymore. It comes from Germany or China. Minibal ball joints, Germany. Meinlschmidt valves , Germany

The cost of simply making an instrument in the US has risen because the cost of brass has increased markedly. One example. The caps and rings I machine for my instruments have gone from a material cost of $7.00 a piece, to $17.00 a piece! That's just one part! This is going to be bad.[/quote]

I hope you stocked up as much as possible, I bought an absurd amount of brass and bronze as a just in case. Even so, it'll only help for a short period of time. It will indeed be real bad, likely real soon.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2025-03-04 8:43 a.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="269013" time="1741092667" user_id="3205">
Much of the material to make a brass instrument is not produced in the USA. It doesn't matter what brand you're talking about. So saying "Made in USA", while I absolutely support that ideal, is an ill.informed, simplistic view point.[/quote]

The notion that tariffs are permanent is short-sighted, ill informed, and simplistic. The USA has effectively been paying unfairly with VAT for many years. We are doing "reciprocal" tariffs. The comment "Made in the USA" is in relation to the fact that the point is to negotiate better trade deals, part of which involves manufacturing (in other industries as well), and sourcing materials from less exploitative sources and avoiding bad import deals, or negotiating better ones. Sourcing materials where there are not unfair trade deals, so that there is actually an incentive to make everything like we used to in the USA. The point in many instances (we are not just talking about trombones and brass instruments) is to source everything we can either in the United States, negotiate more fair trade deals, and bring manufacturing back to the United States. Have a little faith. Read a book and relax. I recommend "The Art of the Deal".
</QUOTE>

Please take off your red hat before entering the chat. Actually, please don't enter the chat at all.

chromebone · 2025-03-04 8:47 a.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]<QUOTE author="chromebone" post_id="269015" time="1741093301" user_id="3008">

You’re about to get an education on how global supply chains work.[/quote]

You act like this is an end game and not just the opening. That tariffs are not permanent. The point is to negotiate for reciprocity. The point is fairer deals... we have been dealing with crap deals for your entire lifetime. Have a little faith.. either way we are going to SEE how it plays out. So much pessimism and condescension, but zero faith (we know). Thing is it never goes the way you think it will.. Will check back in later, let's see what happens.
</QUOTE>

Shall I remind you who negotiated the trade deals, that apparently are now not fair, back in 2020?

<LINK_TEXT text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... _Agreement">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Mexico%E2%80%93Canada_Agreement</LINK_TEXT>

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2025-03-04 8:58 a.m.

Advocate for "Made in USA" all you want, but please, go through your house and get rid of everything NOT made in USA!! Then put your money where your mouth is, replace it with product that is. Good luck with that, because your house will be empty, and VERY expensive to re-stock, even if you can find a USA made alternative.

And BTW, your MAGA hat was made in China.

StephenK · by **StephenK** » 2025-03-04 9:21 a.m.

The USA has effectively been paying unfairly with VAT for many years.

VAT is just end-customer sales tax. It applies to all qualifying sales, no matter which is the originating country.

hornbuilder · 2025-03-04 9:32 a.m.

Just like these Tarrifs are going to be end-consumer sales taxes. American consumers will be the ones paying the extra $$$, not the country producing the goods

Tarrifs are meant to protect a domestic industry. In many cases, there are no domestic alternatives. And the notion that somehow production of those commodities will start in the US, is just laughable. The reason why companies sent their production offshore was to take advantage of the lower labor costs and reduced regulations. Will American workers work for the same $$ per hour as the people in sweat shops in Vietnam? Bangladesh? India? China?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-03-04 9:33 a.m.

[quote="StephenK"]<QUOTE>The USA has effectively been paying unfairly with VAT for many years.[/quote]
VAT is just end-customer sales tax. It applies to all qualifying sales, no matter which is the originating country.
</QUOTE>

I'm not sore we in the US actually have to pay VAT. I recall being able to file some paperwork to get a VAT rebate when I brought my item into the US. Of course I was still open to US Customs Duties (but that's a different matter).

chromebone · 2025-03-04 9:35 a.m.

[quote="chromebone"]<QUOTE author="tromboneVan" post_id="269019" time="1741094558" user_id="6540">

You act like this is an end game and not just the opening. That tariffs are not permanent. The point is to negotiate for reciprocity. The point is fairer deals... we have been dealing with crap deals for your entire lifetime. Have a little faith.. either way we are going to SEE how it plays out. So much pessimism and condescension, but zero faith (we know). Thing is it never goes the way you think it will.. Will check back in later, let's see what happens.[/quote]

Shall I remind you who negotiated the trade deals, that apparently are now not fair, back in 2020?

<LINK_TEXT text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... _Agreement">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Mexico%E2%80%93Canada_Agreement</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>

Donald Trump, January 29, 2020:

“The USMCA is the largest, fairest, most balanced, and modern trade agreement ever achieved. There’s never been anything like it…”

“This is a colossal victory for our farmers, ranchers, energy workers, factory workers, and American workers in all 50 states and, you could almost say, beyond —…”

First rule of negotiation is, don’t negotiate against yourself.

The thing about this is, I’ll give credit where it’s due, even to him. The USMCA was actually one of the few things he got right; why he would then decide to turn around and blow it up is beyond me; but he did the same thing with operation warp speed. I guess that’ll be for forensic psychologists to figure out.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2025-03-04 9:36 a.m.

We don't pay VAT in the US FYI. That's straight up propaganda.

hornbuilder · 2025-03-04 9:38 a.m.

VAT is a UK import tax. Australia has a GST of 10% placed on international imports. Any item I used to order from the US, when I lived in Australia, attracted the 10% GST, which I paid, and went into Aust Govt coffers. GST also applies to certain consumable products produced in the country.

The US does not pay VAT.

glenp · by **glenp** » 2025-03-04 9:39 a.m.

[quote="StephenK"]VAT is just end-customer sales tax. It applies to all qualifying sales, no matter which is the originating country.[/quote]

I didn’t know much about VAT, so I read up on it:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax

If you don’t know about it, check out the Implementation, Examples, and Criticism sections. Very helpful.

It’s not just an end-customer sales tax. As for fairness, I haven’t formed an opinion on that. But you can read the Criticism section to see what others say.

JTeagarden · by **JTeagarden** » 2025-03-04 10:20 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="StephenK" post_id="269032" time="1741098060" user_id="199">

VAT is just end-customer sales tax. It applies to all qualifying sales, no matter which is the originating country.[/quote]

I'm not sore we in the US actually have to pay VAT. I recall being able to file some paperwork to get a VAT rebate when I brought my item into the US. Of course I was still open to US Customs Duties (but that's a different matter).
</QUOTE>

We do not pay VAT on products imported from the EU at all, it’s a de facto export subsidy, but one blessed by the WTO when the issue has been raised (as it has multiple times).

CharlieB · by **CharlieB** » 2025-03-04 11:20 a.m.

Yes, imported trombones will cost 25% more. This will allow domestic makers to raise their prices to match.

The same will apply to every product imported. We will all be poorer because of the tariffs.

But there is bigger picture..........

The U.S. was able to defeat Germany in WW2 because we had a manufacturing complex that was massive, and totally under our control. Unlike Hitler, we were able to produce ships, planes, ammunition, fuel, and other war materials at incredible volumes. That was our biggest advantage, and a main reason why we are not all speaking German today.

Since then we have become lazy, and allowed over 76,000 of our factories to relocate overseas, leaving us militarily vulnerable. Asia is producing our warships, our military drones, our semiconductor electronics, and endless other elements essential to our national security.

You can't fight a war when your opponent is making your weaponry.

Tariffs are a very expensive, painful thing; but if they are the only way to restore our military security by returning our industries back to American soil, independent of foreign control, it is a pain that must be endured.

Those 76,000 factories will gradually return production to the U.S. in order to avoid the tariffs. That puts more people to work earning and spending money (and paying income taxes), and stimulating our currently sluggish economy. It has taken us many years to get ourselves into this predicament, and it will most likely take many years to get us out of it.

Ah, but this is a trombone forum.

I currently use Superslick and a water spritz on all my slides. Some do better with cream, and some like the liquid.

LeTromboniste · 2025-03-04 11:49 a.m.

With regards to tariffs being meant to counteract VAT (which by the way is not the main stated reason), it's important to note that it is the US who chooses to not have VAT. This is because neither party can politically afford to impose one; the mere idea of taxation is repugnant for too large a chunk of the country. That is not the fault of the rest of the world, however. The US chooses to have a tax policy it knows puts it at a trade disadvantage with 150+ other countries. They can't then play victim.

[quote="JTeagarden"]We do not pay VAT on products imported from the EU at all, it’s a de facto export subsidy, but one blessed by the WTO when the issue has been raised (as it has multiple times).[/quote]

VAT rebates are not an export subsidy. Quite to the contrary, VAT that is only partially-rebated effectively act as an export tax! The misconception stems from thinking the rebate is a tax break. It's not: the VAT is not a tax on the supplier in the first place, but on the customer. The supplier merely collects it and sends it to the government, minus whatever VAT they had to pay on their own supplies. Rebates compensate exporters for the impossibility of collecting VAT from their customer. In the absence of a rebate, the exporter would be on the hook for the VAT on the product, which is supposed to be paid by the customer, and so their profit on exports would be smaller than when selling the same product at the same price domestically.

Say I'm an instrument maker in Germany and I sell you a horn for $5000, tax-free.

In Germany, that horn costs $5950 because there's a 19% VAT ($950) added to the price. I would then owe the government that VAT. But I get to deduct whatever VAT I myself paid on materials, supplies and independent services. Say those cost me $2500, that means I paid $400 in VAT ($2100 before tax+19% or $400). So I owe the government the VAT I collected from my German client ($950) minus the VAT I myself paid ($400), therefore $550. So after sending that VAT to the government, I'm left with $5400, or $400 more than if I had sold it to a US customer. The tax rebate merely compensates for this difference (and usually not fully) when exporting goods.

(obviously totally invented numbers)

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-03-04 11:51 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="tromboneVan" post_id="269008" time="1741090556" user_id="6540">
Made in the USA.[/quote]

That's great! Only made in the USA. So, no more new student-level instruments for schools and kids. That next Marine Band side-by-side concert with kids might have to be played on kazoos, but hey, at least it's not going to be DEI!
</QUOTE>

There used to be a kazoo factory in Buffalo, New York. They made a nice product.

I bet it's long gone, and that kazoos are now made in the People's Republic. :idk:

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2025-03-04 12:14 p.m.

[quote="CharlieB"]

Since then we have become lazy, and allowed over 76,000 of our factories to relocate overseas, leaving us militarily vulnerable. Asia is producing our warships, our military drones, our semiconductor electronics, and endless other elements essential to our national security.
[/quote]

Everyone sources chips from Taiwan, yes. But American warships are produced right here in the U.S. of A. No need to exaggerate that claim.

Creating a fragmented, more dangerous world just for this purpose seems pretty backwards, since we'll more likely need those weapons with no allies.

Bach5G · 2025-03-04 12:25 p.m.

It seems unwise to let someone who has filed for bankruptcy 6 times set national economic policy.

March 3 op-ed headline in the WSJ:

“Trump Takes the Dumbest Tariff Plunge

He says the 25% levies on Mexico and Canada will begin Tuesday. Stocks fall.”

When you’ve lost the WSJ…

chromebone · 2025-03-04 12:32 p.m.

[quote="CharlieB"]Yes, imported trombones will cost 25% more. This will allow domestic makers to raise their prices to match.

The same will apply to every product imported. We will all be poorer because of the tariffs.

But there is bigger picture..........

The U.S. was able to defeat Germany in WW2 because we had a manufacturing complex that was massive, and totally under our control. Unlike Hitler, we were able to produce ships, planes, ammunition, fuel, and other war materials at incredible volumes. That was our biggest advantage, and a main reason why we are not all speaking German today.

Since then we have become lazy, and allowed over 76,000 of our factories to relocate overseas, leaving us militarily vulnerable. Asia is producing our warships, our military drones, our semiconductor electronics, and endless other elements essential to our national security.

You can't fight a war when your opponent is making your weaponry.

Tariffs are a very expensive, painful thing; but if they are the only way to restore our military security by returning our industries back to American soil, independent of foreign control, it is a pain that must be endured.

Those 76,000 factories will gradually return production to the U.S. in order to avoid the tariffs. That puts more people to work earning and spending money (and paying income taxes), and stimulating our currently sluggish economy. It has taken us many years to get ourselves into this predicament, and it will most likely take many years to get us out of it.

Ah, but this is a trombone forum.

I currently use Superslick and a water spritz on all my slides. Some do better with cream, and some like the liquid.[/quote]

The CHIPS act, passed in 2022, was bringing chip manufacturing back to this country. So explain why the Trump administration is currently undercutting it?

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-chi ... 025-03-04/">https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-chips-act-office-lays-off-about-third-its-staff-sources-say-2025-03-04/</LINK_TEXT>

As far as reestablishing supply chains and manufacturing as it was in 1940, that would take many years to do: 1940 manufacturing was 100 years in the making; it had its roots in the Industrial Revolution, which started in this country in 1840.

If it was even possible or desirable to get back to that time, tariffs would have to be in place for a very very long time before we’d get to that, and we’ll be in an all out depression before then. And tariffs alone won’t accomplish it. It will take massive government investment, just like how massive government investment is what ramped up manufacturing in WW2, and what accomplished China’s rise. I see no appetite for that kind of government investment that wound required to accomplish what Trump wants. If anything, the Tariffs are simply the lazy way out of doing the actual hard work of building manufacturing. You could make the argument it took China only 20 years to achieve its Industrial Revolution, but that is a very different history, culture and governmental system from us. I really don’t think any of us would want to live though our own version of the Cultural Revolution.

We live in a different world now, China was an agrarian backwater then, it is a major power now; going back to the 1940’s is not possible, nor desirable.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2025-03-04 12:34 p.m.

Why did those 76,000 factories close and move overseas?

Was it for lower prices? No, it was to lower costs for more corporate profits. "America first" was never a consideration.

Prices will increase due to the tariffs. Will prices come back down after the tariffs are lifted? No, consumers will then be used to paying more, so corporate profits will increase again. That's the real endgame. "America first" was never a consideration.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-03-04 12:39 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Why did those 76,000 factories close and move overseas?

Was it for lower prices? No, it was to lower costs for more corporate profits. "America first" was never a consideration.

Prices will increase due to the tariffs. Will prices come back down after the tariffs are lifted? No, consumers will then be used to paying more, so corporate profits will increase again. That's the real endgame. "America first" was never a consideration.[/quote]

Also to fund tax breaks. More profits, less tax.

CharlieB · by **CharlieB** » 2025-03-04 1:06 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]

American warships are produced right here in the U.S. of A. No need to exaggerate that claim.[/quote]

SOME ships are still built Stateside, but our Stateside shipyards are woefully behind the times, and incapable of meeting wartime production needs.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2025-03-04 1:09 p.m.

[quote="CharlieB"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="269062" time="1741108455" user_id="3131">

American warships are produced right here in the U.S. of A. No need to exaggerate that claim.[/quote]

SOME ships are still built Stateside, but our Stateside shipyards are woefully behind the times, and incapable of meeting wartime production needs.
</QUOTE>

All American warships are built here. Yes, they're behind the times, and yes they would be incapable of building a fleet like the one of 1945. But with a globalized, peaceful world, they are needed much less than before. Wait, what was that? Let's shatter alliances, make China feel free to invade Taiwan, and lose all our allies in the process. That is NOT worth bringing a small amount of domestic production back to the US.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-03-04 1:10 p.m.

[quote="CharlieB"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="269062" time="1741108455" user_id="3131">

American warships are produced right here in the U.S. of A. No need to exaggerate that claim.[/quote]

SOME ships are still built Stateside, but our Stateside shipyards are woefully behind the times, and incapable of meeting wartime production needs.
</QUOTE>

And those "Made in U.S.A." ships are loaded with [tariffed] foreign content. :horror:

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2025-03-04 1:16 p.m.

[quote="CharlieB"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="269062" time="1741108455" user_id="3131">

American warships are produced right here in the U.S. of A. No need to exaggerate that claim.[/quote]

SOME ships are still built Stateside, but our Stateside shipyards are woefully behind the times, and incapable of meeting wartime production needs.
</QUOTE>

It is illegal for the US government to buy warships built in foreign countries, so please stop posting about things you don’t know anything about. Almost all warships are built here.

What is suffering is our commercial shipbuilding industry, which is almost completely destroyed because building warships is so much more profitable. No cruise ships are currently built in this country.

RJMason · by **RJMason** » 2025-03-04 1:41 p.m.

Yeah we toast. Ontario Premier Doug Ford said he would stop all export of Nickel. I know most nickel parts are made in Germany and China but wondering if hurting our friends up north will make it even worse for industries that require nickel (auto, EV batteries, and much lower down the chain Bach LT slides lol).

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-03-04 1:48 p.m.

There are many reasons why our manufacturing operations have gone overseas.

1. American workers demand salaries that are higher than overseas. Partly because the cost of living overseas is lower and workers can live on the lower salaries, and partly because labor is not well organized like it was in the US in the time just after World War II.

2. America has tighter pollution controls, mostly because people don't want to be poisoned by our drinking water or our air. If you were to look at the environments of some of the countries doing a lot of our manufacturing, you will find that workers endure more dangers in the workplace, and pollution from manufacturing operations generally is allowed to be either dumped on land or in "scrap" areas. Americans would never want to live next to polluting plants.

3. America is not the only source of technological advancements. There are technology hubs in many western European countries as well as Japan. Some of the countries do our manufacturing and take advantage to steal our technology (Russia and China come to mind). Note that the machines that do the imaging for the highest technology microchips are made in the Netherlands (and used in Taiwan). I believe Intel has bought one to use in the new microchip plant in Arizona.

For a long time the US government required everything for the Military to be built by only US companies. This resulted in a lot of high cost weapons systems. Around the Reagan Era the Republicans demanded that the Military source from overseas to save money. So Taiwanese electronic components go in the electronics (except for some very specialized ones). This is one reason we should be very wary of China wanting to take Taiwan.

Quite frankly, I think the manufacturing process for just about everything is highly dependent on an international supply chain. Trying to reshore all of these things may not be possible any more. And arbitrary tariffs just make the problem worse.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-03-04 1:48 p.m.

[quote="RJMason"]Yeah we toast. Ontario Premier Doug Ford said he would stop all export of Nickel. I know most nickel parts are made in Germany and China but wondering if hurting our friends up north will make it even worse for industries that require nickel (auto, EV batteries, and much lower down the chain Bach LT slides lol).[/quote]

DoFo is also saying he’s cutting or tariffing electricity exports. Currently Ontario supplies electricity to New York State, Michigan, and Minnesota.

I don’t think anyone believes any of this will bring American to its knees, lack of Bach LT slides notwithstanding, but it will affect everyday Americans.

CharlieB · by **CharlieB** » 2025-03-04 2:01 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Why did those 76,000 factories close and move overseas?

Was it for lower prices? No, it was to lower costs for more corporate profits. "America first" was never a consideration.

Prices will increase due to the tariffs. Will prices come back down after the tariffs are lifted? No, consumers will then be used to paying more, so corporate profits will increase again. That's the real endgame. "America first" was never a consideration.[/quote]

All absolutely true.

But that is the corner that we have maneuvered ourselves into.

The economic engine of our country is free enterprise companies, and we are losing them.

We can't survive on the revenue from farming, or timber, or mining. We need the profit motivated industries that we all despise as money grubbing profiteers. Are tariffs the best way to lure (coerce?) them back ?

Time will tell. Whatever happens, we consumers will be paying a big financial price for whatever national mismanagement got us into this mess of doling out trillions of dollars beyond our ability to pay.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-04 2:15 p.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]Made in the USA.[/quote]

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-03-04 2:17 p.m.

And the Troll re-appears! Good luck living in a world without allies!

Jim Scott

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2025-03-04 2:49 p.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]<QUOTE author="tromboneVan" post_id="269008" time="1741090556" user_id="6540">
Made in the USA.[/quote]
</QUOTE>

Those companies would have to move their entire supply chain to the US, which is impossible in the globalized world market. :idk:

bigbone1 · by **bigbone1** » 2025-03-04 3:22 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Why did those 76,000 factories close and move overseas?

Was it for lower prices? No, it was to lower costs for more corporate profits. "America first" was never a consideration.

Prices will increase due to the tariffs. Will prices come back down after the tariffs are lifted? No, consumers will then be used to paying more, so corporate profits will increase again. That's the real endgame. "America first" was never a consideration.[/quote]

Trump first is the consideration. He doesn't cares about the people.

glenp · by **glenp** » 2025-03-04 3:24 p.m.

I'm waiting to see the relevant docs appear that detail what exactly tariffs are being imposed.

I check the following two sites:

https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/

Anyone know of other sites that would be worth checking out.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-03-04 3:29 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="tromboneVan" post_id="269085" time="1741115709" user_id="6540">[/quote]

Those companies would have to move their entire supply chain to the US, which is impossible in the globalized world market. :idk:
</QUOTE>

Not only in the globalized modern world market. It's just fully, absolutely, categorically impossible. The US lacks a lot of primary resources. Can't just make them appear out of thin air.

Regarding the Doug Ford quotes and the situation with Canada... yeah, when you put oil aside, Canada buys from the US more than the other way around. Where you're biggest customer. Aside from oil, you actually have a 55 billion trade surplus with us. A trade war with Canada is absolutely insane. Now the one thing that pushes the balance in the other direction iand explains the trade deficit is crude oil. You're importing 4 million barrels of it from Canada per day (!!!), which is over 60% of your total oil imports. You're not doing this out of kindness, you're doing it because you absolutely need it, and you get a good deal on it. Cutting off that supply is going to do zero good to the US. This whole tariff war is just going to be shooting the US in the foot, with absolutely nothing to gain from it. You already have a good trade deal with us. The demands regarding the border are equally insane. There's more illegal immigrants and drugs (and guns!) crossing the border from the US into Canada than the reverse. Canada agreeing to reinforce the border security is to keep things in, not out of, the US. This is pure lunacy. It's tilting at windmills on an unprecedented scale.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-03-04 3:35 p.m.

[quote="glenp"]I'm waiting to see the relevant docs appear that detail what exactly tariffs are being imposed.

I check the following two sites:

https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/

Anyone know of other sites that would be worth checking out.[/quote]

Here's the list of imports, worth 21 billion, concerned by the current retaliatory tariffs imposed by Canada

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.canada.ca/en/department-fin ... -2025.html">https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/news/2025/03/list-of-products-from-the-united-states-subject-to-25-per-cent-tariffs-effective-march-4-2025.html</LINK_TEXT>

And the list of the further imports worth 87 billion that will be subject to tariffs in three weeks:

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.canada.ca/en/department-fin ... goods.html">https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/consultations/2025/notice-intent-impose-countermeasures-response-united-states-tariffs-on-canadian-goods.html</LINK_TEXT>

CharlieB · by **CharlieB** » 2025-03-04 3:47 p.m.

Some pertinent reading:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ariff_rate">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tariff_rate</LINK_TEXT>

glenp · by **glenp** » 2025-03-04 3:58 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Here's the list of imports, worth 21 billion, concerned by the current retaliatory tariffs imposed by Canada

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.canada.ca/en/department-fin ... -2025.html">https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/news/2025/03/list-of-products-from-the-united-states-subject-to-25-per-cent-tariffs-effective-march-4-2025.html</LINK_TEXT>

And the list of the further imports worth 87 billion that will be subject to tariffs in three weeks:

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.canada.ca/en/department-fin ... goods.html">https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/consultations/2025/notice-intent-impose-countermeasures-response-united-states-tariffs-on-canadian-goods.html</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Thanks. I like that they list out all the affected imports. If anyone is interested, here are the docs I've found on the US imposed duties:

Canada:

Mexico:

China:

I didn't find anything on the EU yet. Will look more later.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2025-03-04 4:00 p.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]The notion that tariffs are permanent is short-sighted, ill informed, and simplistic. The USA has effectively been paying unfairly with VAT for many years. We are doing "reciprocal" tariffs. The comment "Made in the USA" is in relation to the fact that the point is to negotiate better trade deals, part of which involves manufacturing (in other industries as well), and sourcing materials from less exploitative sources and avoiding bad import deals, or negotiating better ones. Sourcing materials where there are not unfair trade deals, so that there is actually an incentive to make everything like we used to in the USA. The point in many instances (we are not just talking about trombones and brass instruments) is to source everything we can either in the United States, negotiate more fair trade deals, and bring manufacturing back to the United States. Have a little faith. Read a book and relax. I recommend "The Art of the Deal".[/quote] You mean, the book that he didn't even write? Negotiating trade deals is completely different than real estate, where "winning" means that you get more than you asking for, or less than the seller was asking. International trade does not work in such a simplistic way, and as someone who lives in a state directly impacted by his "deals" (New Jersey), many of them were totally full of "stuff". Go read up on the Piano store and other vendors his companies short changed as part of "making the deal". I won't even go into the entirely misleading way that these tariffs have been sold to the public: that they will stop fentanyl from Canada, or that they will rake in money for the US.

No, the people pay for them, as in, Americans. And using them as a way to protect and stimulate domestic industry? Guess what. It didn't work before, it probably won't work now. What will happen is that all of the prices will increase, and there still won't be domestic production of many items that were "offshored" decades ago in the search of bigger and better margins.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2025-03-04 4:03 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Not only in the globalized modern world market. It's just fully, absolutely, categorically impossible. The US lacks a lot of primary resources. Can't just make them appear out of thin air.

Regarding the Doug Ford quotes and the situation with Canada... yeah, when you put oil aside, Canada buys from the US more than the other way around. Where you're biggest customer. Aside from oil, you actually have a 55 billion trade surplus with us. A trade war with Canada is absolutely insane. Now the one thing that pushes the balance in the other direction iand explains the trade deficit is crude oil. You're importing 4 million barrels of it from Canada per day (!!!), which is over 60% of your total oil imports. You're not doing this out of kindness, you're doing it because you absolutely need it, and you get a good deal on it. Cutting off that supply is going to do zero good to the US. This whole tariff war is just going to be shooting the US in the foot, with absolutely nothing to gain from it. You already have a good trade deal with us. The demands regarding the border are equally insane. There's more illegal immigrants and drugs (and guns!) crossing the border from the US into Canada than the reverse. Canada agreeing to reinforce the border security is to keep things in, not out of, the US. This is pure lunacy. It's tilting at windmills on an unprecedented scale.[/quote] I should add, as many seem unaware, the U.S. refineries? They are set up mostly to process FOREIGN OIL, namely, Canadian oil. U.S. oil? Well that's actually exported, because they get more money that way. So when everyone talks about "drill baby drill" and such, it'll result in oil that we don't even use, and won't help anything. They also want to open up the arctic reserve for natural gas, which will help, right?

Yeah natural gas is so cheap right now the company's who purchase those rights are going to sit on them for years, decades, whatever until the price rises to the point of justifying mining those minerals.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2025-03-04 4:07 p.m.

[quote="glenp"]Thanks. I like that they list out all the affected imports. If anyone is interested, here are the docs I've found on the US imposed duties:

Canada:

[/quote] The illegal fentanyl trade from Canada doesn't exist. oh wait, ok, 0.2% of the fentanyl seized at the border is coming from Canada. That's almost statistically insignificant compared to the other main sources, which are Mexico and China. Canada has its own opioid crisis going on, caused by domestic production, however there is no evidence that it is linked to the United States opioid crisis.

Furthermore, as someone who has lost SEVERAL family members to opioid abuse, the fact that a social issue continues to be turned into a criminal, economic, and political issue is disgusting. They don't give a crap about anyone who is an opioid addict, or addicted to any other substance. They never have, and most likely never will.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-03-04 4:09 p.m.

Please let's restrict the discussion to tariffs and what their effect is and leave MAGA and the POTUS out of this, even though they are inextricably linked to the issue.

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2025-03-04 4:11 p.m.

One of the very few "Brexit benefits" was that I got to learn from some people who actually knew what they're talking about describing how international trade negotiations work in practice. It's not a job for the impatient and often involves years, if not decades, of sustained effort.

Meanwhile, I live in a country with 2 aircraft carriers, no supporting fleet, and no planes.

Bach5G · 2025-03-04 4:11 p.m.

Alberta Western Canadian Select is about $56/barrel, while W Texas Intermediate is about $68/barrel. Gulf Coast refineries would have to be refitted to process US crude. That would take time and would be expensive.

To TBoneSullivan’s point above, according to D Dale:

“Federal statistics show US border authorities seized 21,889 pounds of fentanyl in the 2024 fiscal year. Of that amount, 43 pounds were seized at the Canadian border — about 0.2% — compared with 21,148 pounds at the Mexican border, about 96.6%.”

I expect MB is correct that there is more fentanyl, guns, and cocaine coming north into Canada than vice versa.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2025-03-04 4:18 p.m.

How it's going in the "Hardware/Instruments" thread lately.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-03-04 4:21 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]Alberta Western Canadian Select is about $56/barrel, while W Texas Intermediate is about $68/barrel. Gulf Coast refineries would have to be refitted to process US crude. That would take time and would be expensive.[/quote]

This is actually a major issue that seems to be ignored by the Powers that Be. US oil is relatively "sour" (high sulfur content) while Venezuelan and Canadian oil is "sweet" (i.e. lower sulfur content). Refineries have to be "tuned" to be able to fraction these different oils and it's not a matter of adjusting operating temperatures. Often there would need to be a major change to the equipment in the refinery to deal with US gulf crude versus the imported crude we normally process.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2025-03-04 4:31 p.m.

Along similar lines, the people that call for the Keystone XL to be reinstated, not knowing that it would carry Canadian oil for export from southern US ports. Providing very view jobs, and basically zero economic benefit to the US.

tbonesullivan · 2025-03-04 4:34 p.m.

I think many people really don't realize how much of what they buy that is "Made in the U.S.A" is actually... not. People can say what they want about California, but they have fairly stringent requirements as to what items can be marked "Made in the U.S.A." compared to some other states. Originally, their 2015 laws made it virtually impossible for items with any type of foreign content to be labled as "made in the U.S.A". In 2016, it became the following:

Products that bears domestic COO-label can be sold in California, if the foreign parts do not constitute more than either:

-5% of the final wholesale value of the product.

-10% of the final wholesale value of the product if:

the foreign parts are not available in the US; and

the manufacturer cannot manufacture the part at issue.

One thing that exists in California are MANY top manufacturers of Guitars, Basses, and Amplifiers for such. Virtually none of them can label their products as "Made in the U.S.A.". This is why they all say Made / Crafted in California, or sometimes even "Assembled in California". Furthermore, many of these products might never have been able to satisfy these requirements any time in the past 40+ years.

Guitar amplifier cabinets, well the usual preferred material- voidless marine grade BALTIC Birch plywood. Yeah that's not gonna get made in the USA... ever. Also the speakers? The most popular maker for guitar speakers are Celestion, which makes some speakers in the UK, with most being made in China, and Eminence, who is based in Kentucky but imports things like speaker cones and the like.

Guitar bodies, fretboards, necks, etc use a lot of exotic hardwoods, like rosewood, ebony, okoume etc. Some of the most desirable "made in the U.S.A." guitars are ones with bodies made almost entirely of mahogany and rosewood, with a maple cap and holly veneer. This is another thing that simply can't be made in the USA. Sure there are plenty of guitars using domestic woods, but not everyone wants those.

Guitar hardware: most companies were offshored long ago in search of higher profits. A German company named Schaller and a Japanese company named Gotoh are two of the best suppliers, and there pretty much isn't any domestic production for these products.

Vacuum tubes - guitar (and some bass) amplifiers still rely heavily on thermionic valves / tubes, which haven't been made in the U.S. in any type of large scale since the military stopped using them in the early 1980s. All the factories shut down, just like they did in Europe. Now there are only major producers in Czechia, Russia, and China, with some smaller producers as well. There are some very small scale producers in the USA, but they can't keep up with the demand, and mainly aim for the HI-FI audio market where people think nothing of a 3ft RCA cable that costs $800.

Electronic components: also offshored long ago.

Anyway, if you want to really see domestic production back, why not talk about REAL ways to bring it back? Tariffs aren't it. Relaxing environmental protections isn't it, unless you want lots of cancer and other results of industrial poisoning. Why not make it so that anything imported has to be made in a way that doesn't involve dumping hexavalent chromium into drinking water supplies?

mikerspencer · by **mikerspencer** » 2025-03-04 4:56 p.m.

My understanding is Rath get their slide legs chromed in the USA. Frankly it seems wild they couldn't find someone closer. Not least for shipping costs and emissions.

Many global trade things are a good idea, but I struggle to make sense of that one <EMOJI seq="1fae3" tseq="1fae3">🫣</EMOJI>

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-03-04 5:10 p.m.

[quote="mikerspencer"]My understanding is Rath get their slide legs chromed in the USA. Frankly it seems wild they couldn't find someone closer. Not least for shipping costs and emissions.

Many global trade things are a good idea, but I struggle to make sense of that one <EMOJI seq="1fae3" tseq="1fae3">🫣</EMOJI>[/quote]

There are things that you might be able to do in-house on a small scale, or if the volume justifies, have the set up to do on a large scale, but if you have too much volume to handle but not enough to justify the large scale operation, you're better off sending out to a specialized shop, in which case the cheapest option but not be the nearest, and seem nonsensical. Not saying that's the case here, no idea, but that seems like the kind of situation that could be plausible.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2025-03-04 5:31 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]There are things that you might be able to do in-house on a small scale, or if the volume justifies, have the set up to do on a large scale, but if you have too much volume to handle but not enough to justify the large scale operation, you're better off sending out to a specialized shop, in which case the cheapest option but not be the nearest, and seem nonsensical. Not saying that's the case here, no idea, but that seems like the kind of situation that could be plausible.[/quote] Economy of scale is always in play, and due to the requirements for the environment, I don't really know exactly how many companies actually do the chrome plating in house for their inner slide tubes, even in the USA. You need a lot of specialized equipment for good chrome plating, and as someone who had a Kanstul inner slide tube start flaking on the stocking, I was not exactly happy with that result. Inner slide tubes really do need to last, and you need a company that can do them right.

I wonder if Rath draws their inner slides in house, or has them made to spec by an outside maker. I mean, it's not completely out of the ordinary that it ends up being that there are only one or two companies making inner slide tubes to various specifications for different customers around the world.

RJMason · by **RJMason** » 2025-03-04 7:31 p.m.

Guess I’m done buying new horns. Or anything, really? We’re consuming like lunatics, might be good to slow down. There are plenty of old horns out there, buy used. Better for the planet maybe.

Prices will go up, justified or not. Sorry if that hurts businesses I love, but the times have crushed mine too. Streaming payouts are a joke and now some algorithm picks what people listen to.

Trying to find a silver lining in the circus. The world will take a decade to adjust to whatever orange man starts, stops, and starts again. What I can rely on in this world is my LT36BG so I’ll hold onto that!

amoss1s · by **amoss1s** » 2025-03-04 9:16 p.m.

Can we stick to trombone talk? This is a community with many different viewpoints.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2025-03-04 9:49 p.m.

[quote="amoss1s"]Can we stick to trombone talk? This is a community with many different viewpoints.[/quote]

The name of the topic is literally 25% Tariffs, there's was never going to be any trombone talk here.

MrKirk · by **MrKirk** » 2025-03-04 10:49 p.m.

I recently went through purchasing a euphonium and two trombones. I ended up with an Adams E3 selected series, Adams TB-1 Sterling Silver Open Flow, and jumped on a Quinn deal on a Bach LT42BOFG.

I was originally set on a Besson Sovereign/Prestige, and every dealer I called and chatted with had none for sale or didn't have good things to say on service and support for Besson in the US. Adams was typically the opposite.

Trombone wise I knew I wanted either Bach or Yamaha. And again Adams impressed, and the Bach won out... play tested a Yamaha 882OR and was left feeling dull. Perhaps the 882GOR would be better, eventually one of these days Ill get my hands on one. I'd love to test other brands as well!

As far as tariffs, I'd say pricing is pretty even at least from what I've seen recently. But then again with trombones, Bach seems to still hold that place near and dear as well as a standard regardless of their QC.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2025-03-05 12:12 a.m.

The point is, the 25% tarrifs would increase the cost of your Adams instrument by 25+%!! So no, the pricing would not be "pretty even"

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2025-03-05 2:10 a.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]

I wonder if Rath draws their inner slides in house, or has them made to spec by an outside maker. I mean, it's not completely out of the ordinary that it ends up being that there are only one or two companies making inner slide tubes to various specifications for different customers around the world.[/quote]

Rath slides are indeed drawn in house.

No part of a Rath trombone is made or sourced from the USA.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2025-03-05 9:35 a.m.

[quote="Fidbone"]<QUOTE author="tbonesullivan" post_id="269116" time="1741127519" user_id="7063">

I wonder if Rath draws their inner slides in house, or has them made to spec by an outside maker. I mean, it's not completely out of the ordinary that it ends up being that there are only one or two companies making inner slide tubes to various specifications for different customers around the world.[/quote]

Rath slides are indeed drawn in house.

No part of a Rath trombone is made or sourced from the USA.
</QUOTE>

This I think we knew. Any thoughts on mikespencer's statement that Rath gets their tubes chromed in the US?

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2025-03-05 10:48 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Fidbone" post_id="269159" time="1741158639" user_id="3132">

Rath slides are indeed drawn in house.

No part of a Rath trombone is made or sourced from the USA.[/quote]

This I think we knew. Any thoughts on mikespencer's statement that Rath gets their tubes chromed in the US?
</QUOTE>

Chrome plating in an environmentally safe and legal manner is extremely difficult. Very likely the UK and EU have even higher environmental standards, which might make it easier to do in the US>

MrKirk · by **MrKirk** » 2025-03-05 3:04 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]The point is, the 25% tarrifs would increase the cost of your Adams instrument by 25+%!! So no, the pricing would not be "pretty even"[/quote]

Maybe , guess only time will tell. I meant currently everything is pretty even apples to apples. Tariffs may or may not affect certain things more or less.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2025-03-05 7:28 p.m.

From Wikipedia:

“A tariff is a tax imposed by the government of a country or customs territory, or by a supranational union, on imports or exports of goods. Besides being a source of revenue, import duties can also be a form of regulation of foreign trade and policy that taxes foreign products to encourage or safeguard domestic industry. Protective tariffs are among the most widely used instruments of protectionism, along with import quotas and export quotas and other non-tariff barriers to trade [emphasis added].”

The article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff

The basic idea or strategy behind a tariff is to discourage domestic consumers from buying certain foreign products, and encourage them to buy domestic products.

From the basic simple definition/explanation, reasonable people can agree that the items targeted by tariffs will increase prices for domestic consumers once the tariff is put in place. It’s too early to tell exactly what the price of goods from Canada, Mexico, and China will be, although we have heard that the tariffs will be 25%.

Why presidents or other fiscal and economic policymakers choose to put a tariff in place is an altogether different question.

NotSkilledHere · by **NotSkilledHere** » 2025-03-05 7:38 p.m.

i think it depends. just because it looks like we are supposed to eat the 25% tariff as an American customer of an imported horn doesn't mean it will truly end up that way. Idk what the profit margins on horns are, but in reality, it will probably end up being let's say 15% more. the other 10% will be eaten by retailer from the profit margin. This will be because 125% price of the horn can likely make horns not worth getting, and idk 115% is more stomachable for people. dont crucify me over the specific %; this is just an example.

so it all comes down to figuring out the balance between sucking up and taking lesser profit margins on these horns vs passing on the 25% tariff to people. we also likely also won't know if the importer is negotiating that manufacturer pays a bit of the tariff too. so in the end maybe horns end up being as 10% higher in price because 10% covered by the end consumer, 10% eaten by retailer/importer, 5% paid for by original manufacturer.

Again dont crucify me over the %. It's just an example

it is possible that might very well see the full 25% completely being shoved onto the customer or at least attempted to. perhaps there will be ways to apply exemptions to the goverment and that way we dont need to have the 25% or full 25% passed onto the customer.

I do agree on one thing however: prices are going up some amount regardless unless the instrument manufacturing process and importing process gets exempted.

NotSkilledHere · by **NotSkilledHere** » 2025-03-05 7:46 p.m.

I say that as I work directly in the supply chain management world so I see materials and supply lines of many global companies and it's definitely not so simple as one side or the other covers all of the tariff. especially for large contracts, it will be in the better interest of both parties to negotiate and figure out an acceptable solution to a) sell product and b) keep materials coming in. the governments simply dont care how they get the tariffs. They just care that tariffs make it into their coffers.

And to add a little onto the subject of eating profit margins, it's in the interest of the manufacturer and the retailer to move horns along. I know retailers can afford to have horns sit maybe a tiny bit, but sitting too long is bad. In some cases with large makers of horns, they may very well have negotiated a significant deal on what they get or purchase every shipment. It is in their best interest to make money and move the horns and not build a huge inventory.

some profit is better than no profit, so retailers will be eating some of the tariffs from profit margins I can guarantee it. and manufacturers, if they choose to keep doing business with american retailers, may be negotiated into slightly lower profit margins on their end too in order to make profit, even if not fully profit as before.

Doubler · by **Doubler** » 2025-03-06 12:13 a.m.

Would someone please explain to me why reciprocal tariffs would be unfair? Wouldn't the end result be negotiating away tariffs altogether? Wouldn't that result in lower costs and prices across the board? Am I missing something here?

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-06 2:17 a.m.

[quote="Doubler"]Would someone please explain to me why reciprocal tariffs would be unfair? Wouldn't the end result be negotiating away tariffs altogether? Wouldn't that result in lower costs and prices across the board? Am I missing something here?[/quote]

Bingo.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-03-06 2:59 a.m.

[quote="Doubler"]Would someone please explain to me why reciprocal tariffs would be unfair? Wouldn't the end result be negotiating away tariffs altogether? Wouldn't that result in lower costs and prices across the board? Am I missing something here?[/quote]

Yes, you're missing something: the fact that they're not reciprocal. Canada overall didn't have tariffs on US goods – we have a free trade agreement (that Trump himself renegociated). [edit for clarity: there were small tariffs on both sides on a few specific industries, but those amounted to less than 1% on average overall. And again, on both sides.] The US put this 25% tariff on Canadian goods for reasons they themselves don't seem to be sure of and seem to depend on what mood one particular person is in on any particular day. One day it's about fentanyl and the border, one day it's about putting "reciprocal" tariffs in place – but "reciprocal" to what? – and one day it's about a trade deficit and sticking it up to people who've supposedly been abusing the US through "unfair deals". By the way, the legal basis for the tariffs (because tariffs do have to be legally justified when they go against a trade deal that has been signed into law by Congress!) is the national emergency of uncontrolled influx illegal aliens and fentanyl, not "reciprocal" tariffs. If they had justified them as reciprocal tariffs, they could have been struck down by US courts because it's easy to demonstrate they violate the law. Invoking the national border emergency makes it impossible to challenge because that emergency is also declared by the executive, even when it's really obvious that at least on the Canadian side, the claim is bogus.

I don't know what the official justification for tariffs on European imports will be, but whatever it is, the real reason won't really be about "reciprocal" tariffs: there are currently very small tariffs on both sides, and already more tariffs on European imports into the US than on American imports the EU (the US has about 1.4% tariffs on average, the EU 0.9%). Putting 25% tariffs on EU import is not going to be "reciprocal" to anything, whatever the guys in power claim.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-06 3:59 a.m.

Canada could also become a state, or states, and avoid tariffs completely. Alberta is already working to organize delegates to come to Washington to speak with Trump, to petition for US Statehood, because they are intelligent enough to realize that they can't afford a trade war with the US.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.westernstandard.news/news/a ... g-us/62741">https://www.westernstandard.news/news/alberta-lawyer-leading-delegation-to-washington-in-hopes-of-joining-us/62741</LINK_TEXT>

Being an issue of national security is obviously not a single issue that is mutually exclusive, so yeah, it's about the national security of our borders, AND, about securing fair - non-losing trade deals. Reciprocal to bad deals, call it a "Free trade agreement" and argue about the semantics about whether it is called a tariff when it might as well be. Of course Canadians and Europeans are mad, when we are re-negotiating better deals for the USA, because why wouldn't you be when we've been getting screwed for your benefit for decades. What is often missed is the disproportionate contributions by the US to NATO to our European & Canadian friends (one example).

Tariffs again are a negotiating tactic, not an end game. The point is ultimately have no tariffs. Reciprocal denotes what you charge us, we charge you. The tariffs are reciprocal to the raw end of the deal we have been getting on a multitude of issues. Governor Trudeau now imposing a 25% back on us. Subsidizing of Canadian industries when we could simply invest in our own, IS the point.

'I love Canadian people', says Trump “I love the Canadian people, they’re great. But we’re spending hundreds of billions a year to protect it. We’re spending hundreds of billions a year to take care of Canada. We lose in trade deficits we’re losing massive — we don’t need their cars. You know, they make 20% of our cars. We don’t need that. I’d rather make them in Detroit,”

mgladdish · by **mgladdish** » 2025-03-06 5:03 a.m.

@tromboneVan, why do you write so much about things you understand so little? I've not yet found a single thing that you've written that's correct.

I don't wade into threads about pedagogy or embouchure because I don't know enough about them. There are far more knowledgeable people than me whos posts are actually useful, so I leave it to them and read with pleasure. If I came in to a thead about embouchures and argued unequivocally that in order to play high you have to completely relax all the muscles in your face and drop your jaw as far is it will go, would the thread be better or worse? Would others reading that thread be more or less informed than before?

When I do get drawn into political discussions online I make damn sure I've read up on the subject at hand and have at least a basic understanding of the concepts first. And I also make sure I'm super clear about bits I'm either unsure of or based on my assumptions. I strongly believe that's a fundamental requirement for productive discussion, both in person and online. This board would be better if you took some of this advice to heart. I'd even argue every democracy everywhere would be better if we could all take a step back and make a conscious effort to be better informed.

In that spirit, I'll leave a few links here which I hope you'll take the time to read and reflect:

Renowned economist with some excellent explainers on tarrifs

https://paulkrugman.substack.com/

If you only have time to read just one post, this is a good one:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/the- ... small-ugly">https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/the-emperors-new-tariffs-small-ugly</LINK_TEXT>

US NATO budget contributions in context:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/us-c ... 024-05-31/">https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/us-contributes-16-nato-annual-budget-not-two-thirds-2024-05-31/</LINK_TEXT>

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2025-03-06 5:30 a.m.

[quote="mgladdish"]@tromboneVan, why do you write so much about things you understand so little? I've not yet found a single thing that you've written that's correct.

...

In that spirit, I'll leave a few links here which I hope you'll take the time to read and reflect:[/quote]

That's great, thank you for sharing!

We need far more actual fact checking and referring to actual scientific sources.

And less nonsense and aggressive ideas like "Canada becoming the next state..."

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-03-06 6:33 a.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]Canada could also become a state, or states, and avoid tariffs completely.[/quote]

You realize that's extortion, right? Do you think this is the way nations treat should each others in a civilized world?

What if, say, China, some years ago, had announced its intention to annex all Pacific states, started a trade war to try and destroy the American economy and said "see, just let them become Chinese provinces and you can avoid tariffs completely"? That's right, your reaction would be "not in a million year" and you'd have called China a terrorist state and taken it as a declaration of actual war. You can't toy around with global order like 6-year-olds would play games in the schoolyard, go back to survival of the fittest and enact a world-scale game of "king of the hill". Careful what you wish for.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-03-06 6:51 a.m.

As I have said before, Canada consists of some 10 "states" (called Provinces) and would have to be absorbed as 10 (or so) States. Note that Canada is much more Liberal than MAGA US, so these states would probably vote out the Conservative President and change the balance of power in the US House and Senate.

I'm still embarrassed as heck that we negotiated a Free Trade Zone between all the nations in Continental North America which we are now unilaterally abrogating. How can anybody trust any agreement we make?

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-06 6:58 a.m.

Lots of aggressive European opinions on American positions... I get it you, you have a wedgie about it, ultimately i'm just giving you a different perspective. You'd rather just insult people than provide any valuable information or opinions, and like your fascistic tendencies of many of you suggest, you just prefer to silence, we know that, and have seen it many times.

Unfortunately I'm entitled to be an American and have opinions, too, despite your preference to belittle me on every thread... sorry, we live in a new paradigm. The USA that caters to you, but you don't pay your fare share (NATO perfect example) doesn't exist anymore.

The hypocrisy of calling tariffs extortion, and then having no issue with the tariffs being used against the USA is proving my point, but that's par for the course with this one .

Again, Tariffs are not the end game, as I recommended before, read the Art of the Deal. How many deals have you won by antagonism? Does that get you very far? We won't always see things the same way,

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-06 7:08 a.m.

Follow the Executive Actions

Timber / Lumber:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential ... roduction/">https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/03/immediate-expansion-of-american-timber-production/</LINK_TEXT>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential ... er-lumber/">https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/03/addressing-the-threat-to-national-security-from-imports-of-timber-lumber/</LINK_TEXT>

What is around the corner for rare earths? metals?

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-03-06 8:10 a.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]Lots of aggressive European opinions on American positions... I get it you, you have a wedgie about it, ultimately i'm just giving you a different perspective. You'd rather just insult people than provide any valuable information or opinions, and like your fascistic tendencies of many of you suggest, you just prefer to silence, we know that, and have seen it many times.

Unfortunately I'm entitled to be an American and have opinions, too, despite your preference to belittle me on every thread... sorry, we live in a new paradigm. The USA that caters to you, but you don't pay your fare share (NATO perfect example) doesn't exist anymore.

The hypocrisy of calling tariffs extortion, and then having no issue with the tariffs being used against the USA is proving my point, but that's par for the course with this one .

Again, Tariffs are not the end game, as I recommended before, read the Art of the Deal. How many deals have you won by antagonism? Does that get you very far? We won't always see things the same way,[/quote]

I'm not European. I'm Canadian, and as such I'm directly affected by these policies, just as you'll be when your gas prices and cost of living skyrocket.

Not insulting you or belittling you. If you consider that being presented with facts that disprove your positions is an insult to you, then I really don't know what to say...

There is no hypocrisy and I didn't call tariffs extortion. The argument of "if you don't like these tariffs, then become a US State" is the part that is extortion.

Yeah tariffs are not an end in themselves and a way for the current administration to get what it wants, we all get that, we're not stupid. That doesn't mean the tariffs will work the way they think they will, that they're a good idea for your country (let alone for the world), that they're legal, that they're not "the dumbest" thing to do (dixit the very conservative Wall Street Journal).

Can we just get back on topic please?

Arendsdale · by **Arendsdale** » 2025-03-06 8:49 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="tromboneVan" post_id="269272" time="1741262314" user_id="6540">
Lots of aggressive European opinions on American positions... I get it you, you have a wedgie about it, ultimately i'm just giving you a different perspective. You'd rather just insult people than provide any valuable information or opinions, and like your fascistic tendencies of many of you suggest, you just prefer to silence, we know that, and have seen it many times.

Unfortunately I'm entitled to be an American and have opinions, too, despite your preference to belittle me on every thread... sorry, we live in a new paradigm. The USA that caters to you, but you don't pay your fare share (NATO perfect example) doesn't exist anymore.

The hypocrisy of calling tariffs extortion, and then having no issue with the tariffs being used against the USA is proving my point, but that's par for the course with this one .

Again, Tariffs are not the end game, as I recommended before, read the Art of the Deal. How many deals have you won by antagonism? Does that get you very far? We won't always see things the same way,[/quote]

I'm not European. I'm Canadian, and as such I'm directly affected by these policies, just as you'll be when your gas prices and cost of living skyrocket.

Not insulting you or belittling you. If you consider that being presented with facts that disprove your positions is an insult to you, then I really don't know what to say...

There is no hypocrisy and I didn't call tariffs extortion. The argument of "if you don't like these tariffs, then become a US State" is the part that is extortion.

Yeah tariffs are not an end in themselves and a way for the current administration to get what it wants, we all get that, we're not stupid. That doesn't mean the tariffs will work the way they think they will, that they're a good idea for your country (let alone for the world), that they're legal, that they're not "the dumbest" thing to do (dixit the very conservative Wall Street Journal).

Can we just get back on topic please?
</QUOTE>
This dude said that COVID test results were controlled to influence if there was a pandemic or not. I think we all just need to stop responding to anything he says, it's not worth it

tromboneVan · 2025-03-06 8:57 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]As I have said before, Canada consists of some 10 "states" (called Provinces) and would have to be absorbed as 10 (or so) States. Note that Canada is much more Liberal than MAGA US, so these states would probably vote out the Conservative President and change the balance of power in the US House and Senate.

I'm still embarrassed as heck that we negotiated a Free Trade Zone between all the nations in Continental North America which we are now unilaterally abrogating. How can anybody trust any agreement we make?[/quote]

Yes, a vote maybe next Canadian administration to really get a feel for what the people want is in order.

Already have seen a lot of hope coming from the people of Greenland to join. Does anyone know if Ukraine has brass? The issue seems to me very advantageous for our desire to buy more and more trombones and keep American manufacturing of trombones going. Looking to solutions for how to improve our supply chain is the next logical step. Yes it's a hurdle to get past the initial bump, but then shouldn't things be better for both consumer and producer (In USA).?

(Kary Mullis inventor of PCR - RIP)

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2025-03-06 9:27 a.m.

For what it's worth, there is little reason in the US to believe that international agreements will be followed through on without a ratified treaty from congress, as that requires a 2/3 vote to ratify or dissolve. Other countries have similar problems, particularly parlimentary democracies, as the nominal leader of those countries (thinking in particular France) can only win by having essentially a supermajority coalition government. In effect, that means that whoever is in charge of the legislature is also in charge of the equivalent of the executive branch. That has positive benefits that allow them to move swiftly, but moving swiftly and largely without opposition also has its drawbacks.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2025-03-06 9:33 a.m.

You are basically promoting to look around which countries around the world would be advantageous for the US to "integrate" or better force under their wings. Sorry to everyone else, but all the stuff you are saying here is absolutely imperialistic BS that is absolutely not tolerable. The US is not the center of the world and you guys have no rights to involve into other countries' inner politics as you are suggesting to do. Keep that nonsense for yourself. I hope that in a few years when all that stuff is hopefully gone by, you reconsider your thinking and how you have gotten caught up in all that.

Again, sorry to everyone else and especially the mods, but I cannot be a member of this kind of forum without reacting to someone spreading these kinds of opinions. I will check which options I have here to never see any of that guy's BS again.

Bach5G · 2025-03-06 11:01 a.m.

TromboneVan said “Yes, a vote maybe next Canadian administration to really get a feel for what the people want is in order.”

Well, there will be a new Canadian PM next week when the Liberal party chooses a new leader. That will be followed sometime this year with a federal general election. I guess we will see what Canadians want. Since Trump’s inauguration, Liberals support has surged while the Trump loving Conservative leader’s support has plummeted. The Conservatives are also against the tariffs. The Liberals have two particularly strong leadership candidates, Mr. Carney, a PhD in economics and Ms. Freeland, a former Rhodes scholar who, more importantly, has excellent anti-Trump credentials (Trump hates her).

Recent polling indicated relatively few Canadians think they would be better off if Canada joined the US, from about 18% in BC to 30% in Alberta. I doubt Quebec, the francophone part of Canada, would support the idea. This poll was taken before tariffs were imposed.

Trump’s talk about annexing Canada sounds a lot like Putin’s talk about invading Ukraine pre-2022. Totally insulting and offensive. The same applies to his remarks about Greenland and Panama. I refrain from referring to American imperialism because it’s just Trump and his MAGA followers.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-03-06 11:12 a.m.

I can see the quotes of That Dude's posts, but I put him on ignore so I don't experience his posts directly, which has made life in this forum more tolerable. From my little experience with him, he comes in boldly proclaiming some sort of false MAGA rhetoric as empirical truth, then when people correct him he plays victim and claims he's being censored and free speech, blah, blah, blah.

Life here is better with him on ignore. I suggest it. And I suggest he just put me and anyone else who makes him feel like such a poor, poor, victim on ignore. Or I would suggest it. I don't know if he can see my posts. But I'm happier that I don't see his. (He is the only person I've ever put on ignore, and I'm happier and better informed for it.)

I suppose we will all be buying fewer new trombones in the future.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-03-06 11:37 a.m.

I live in Alberta - the tariff talk has swung political opinions further left. Unfortunately, we do have a small contingent of white supremacists and conspiracy theorists that live here - TromboneVan obviously gets his news from them.

As far as Greenland, he obviously missed the reporting that the "excited Greenlanders" who met with Don Jr. when he showed up there were actually homeless people that they offered a free lunch to.

Jim Scott

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-06 12:09 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I can see the quotes of That Dude's posts, but I put him on ignore so I don't experience his posts directly, which has made life in this forum more tolerable. From my little experience with him, he comes in boldly proclaiming some sort of false MAGA rhetoric as empirical truth, then when people correct him he plays victim and claims he's being censored and free speech, blah, blah, blah.

Life here is better with him on ignore. I suggest it. And I suggest he just put me and anyone else who makes him feel like such a poor, poor, victim on ignore. Or I would suggest it. I don't know if he can see my posts. But I'm happier that I don't see his. (He is the only person I've ever put on ignore, and I'm happier and better informed for it.)

I suppose we will all be buying fewer new trombones in the future.[/quote]

ad ho·mi·nem/ˌad ˈhämənəm/ adjective

(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-03-06 1:03 p.m.

Here's one to talk...

mgladdish · by **mgladdish** » 2025-03-06 1:06 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I can see the quotes of That Dude's posts, but I put him on ignore so I don't experience his posts directly, which has made life in this forum more tolerable. From my little experience with him, he comes in boldly proclaiming some sort of false MAGA rhetoric as empirical truth, then when people correct him he plays victim and claims he's being censored and free speech, blah, blah, blah.

Life here is better with him on ignore. I suggest it. And I suggest he just put me and anyone else who makes him feel like such a poor, poor, victim on ignore. Or I would suggest it. I don't know if he can see my posts. But I'm happier that I don't see his. (He is the only person I've ever put on ignore, and I'm happier and better informed for it.)

I suppose we will all be buying fewer new trombones in the future.[/quote]

Good call, I've just done it. Although adding him as a 'foe' sounds a bit strong!

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2025-03-06 1:53 p.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="269303" time="1741277537" user_id="16498">
I can see the quotes of That Dude's posts, but I put him on ignore so I don't experience his posts directly, which has made life in this forum more tolerable. From my little experience with him, he comes in boldly proclaiming some sort of false MAGA rhetoric as empirical truth, then when people correct him he plays victim and claims he's being censored and free speech, blah, blah, blah.

Life here is better with him on ignore. I suggest it. And I suggest he just put me and anyone else who makes him feel like such a poor, poor, victim on ignore. Or I would suggest it. I don't know if he can see my posts. But I'm happier that I don't see his. (He is the only person I've ever put on ignore, and I'm happier and better informed for it.)

I suppose we will all be buying fewer new trombones in the future.[/quote]

ad ho·mi·nem/ˌad ˈhämənəm/ adjective

(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
</QUOTE>

I don't see any ad hominem statements here. Dana posted a description of her experiences in response to tromboneVan, but there were no attacks and no name-calling. She then offered a suggestion to ignore him.

This is very different from the ad hominem attacks tromboneVan lobbied in "that other thread," of which I and others noted:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... 4&start=50">https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=39474&start=50</LINK_TEXT>

I've never done this before, but I'm going to add tromboneVan as a foe. In my opinion, his behavior in the forum, and in these two threads in particular, is illogical, argumentative, combative, and baiting, and that is to say nothing of the logical errors and fallacies. While I like to think that reasonable people can disagree about most things, discussions about religion and politics, strange bedfellows that they are, often involve a fundamental clash of world views.

It's like the old saying, "You can't reason with unreasonable people."

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-06 2:37 p.m.

People here cannot handle the slightest question of their perspective... why can't people voice a different perspective without offending you? Many double standards here. It's called hypocrisy when you always resort to attacking people just because of a difference in outlook, but then say stay on topic when those people you disagree with are on topic, but just saying things you don't like. People can think for themselves. It would be a great favor, since you're already on my ignore list (most of you are).

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-03-06 3:03 p.m.

So as of today, March 6, items covered by the USMCA trade agreement (and potash, a fertilizer) will be exempted from tariffs for another month. It’s not clear whether Canadian reciprocal tariffs will be paused. DoFo is still pushing an export tax on electricity. BC and Ont are still removing US alcohol from the gov’t liquor stores. (Ont is a big customer for Kentucky bourbon.) The mid-west states buy a bunch of potash from Canada and it’s planting season.

DJIA down another 500 today.

Clown show.

musicofnote · by **musicofnote** » 2025-03-06 3:48 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]So as of today, March 6, items covered by the USMCA trade agreement (and potash, a fertilizer) will be exempted from tariffs for another month. It’s not clear whether Canadian reciprocal tariffs will be paused. DoFo is still pushing an export tax on electricity. BC and Ont are still removing US alcohol from the gov’t liquor stores. Ont is a big customer for Kentucky bourbon. The mid-west states buy a bunch of potash from Canada and it’s planting season.

DJIA down another 500 today.

Clown show.[/quote]

As Ford should. As should the other provinces. They should all simply go on the offensive, shut off oil, electric to the US. Shut off the supply of autoparts to the US. Shut off the minerals and such things. THEN enter into negotiations to end once once and for all, not just for 30 days, but for at least 4 years, any tariff originating in the US. And only then incrementally restoring deliveries of the above to the US. And if Canada is shut out of "5 Eyes", all the export stops go into effect again. The only way to stop a bully is to out-bully him.

But that's just me the Ex-Ami, now Swiss. While not in the EU, nor in Canada, I for one do support both as a member of Schengen Raum. And don't start with your "what about..." nonsense, I'll just block it.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-03-06 3:53 p.m.

“And don't start with your "what about..." nonsense, I'll just block it.”

What’s that about?

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2025-03-06 4:21 p.m.

Look, this conversation is going to be moot anyway, because we’re about to head into a recession so bad, buying a trombone is not going to be anyone’s priority.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2025-03-06 5:39 p.m.

Yeah. Fabulous..

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2025-03-06 6:21 p.m.

The art of the deal indeed.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2025-03-06 6:28 p.m.

I did hear that he was talking about 25% on EU, too.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-03-06 6:41 p.m.

I really wish somebody would clue Trump about Smoot and Hawley. They basically sabotaged Herbert Hoover's presidency creating the Great Depression.

Those who ignore the lessons of History are condemned to repeat them. (I believe that was attributed to Winston Churchill.)

CharlieB · by **CharlieB** » 2025-03-06 6:53 p.m.

There was an old farmer with his mule hitched to a plow, getting ready to plow a field.

He walked up to the mule and hit him on the head with a heavy stick.

A bystander said, "Why did you do that?"

The farmer said, "He's a really good mule, and he'll do anything I ask of him, but first I need to get his attention."

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2025-03-06 7:27 p.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]People here cannot handle the slightest question of their perspective... why can't people voice a different perspective without offending you? Many double standards here. It's called hypocrisy when you always resort to attacking people just because of a difference in outlook, but then say stay on topic when those people you disagree with are on topic, but just saying things you don't like. People can think for themselves. It would be a great favor, since you're already on my ignore list (most of you are).[/quote]

Ignore the chaff, address the very real questions people have for your positions. There are many still left hanging.

JTeagarden · by **JTeagarden** » 2025-03-06 8:46 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]With regards to tariffs being meant to counteract VAT (which by the way is not the main stated reason), it's important to note that it is the US who chooses to not have VAT. This is because neither party can politically afford to impose one; the mere idea of taxation is repugnant for too large a chunk of the country. That is not the fault of the rest of the world, however. The US chooses to have a tax policy it knows puts it at a trade disadvantage with 150+ other countries. They can't then play victim.

<QUOTE author="JTeagarden" post_id="269046" time="1741101634" user_id="19182">
We do not pay VAT on products imported from the EU at all, it’s a de facto export subsidy, but one blessed by the WTO when the issue has been raised (as it has multiple times).[/quote]

VAT rebates are not an export subsidy. Quite to the contrary, VAT that is only partially-rebated effectively act as an export tax! The misconception stems from thinking the rebate is a tax break.
</QUOTE>

It is not technically designed as an export subsidy, but that is effectively what it is, it allows manufacturers to sell goods to customers outside of the VAT zone at a lower cost than to customers in the zone.

In fact, the end consumer bears the entire VAT, as a manufacturer gets a credit against the VAT that it has to pay against the VAT that it has to remit, and gets to cross credit their input VAT across all of its sales, whether the supply is made within the VAT area or not.

I know a lot more about taxes than I do about Bruckner <EMOJI seq="1f600" tseq="1f600">😀</EMOJI>

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-03-06 9:45 p.m.

[quote="JTeagarden"]<QUOTE author="LeTromboniste" post_id="269053" time="1741106949" user_id="3038">
With regards to tariffs being meant to counteract VAT (which by the way is not the main stated reason), it's important to note that it is the US who chooses to not have VAT. This is because neither party can politically afford to impose one; the mere idea of taxation is repugnant for too large a chunk of the country. That is not the fault of the rest of the world, however. The US chooses to have a tax policy it knows puts it at a trade disadvantage with 150+ other countries. They can't then play victim.

VAT rebates are not an export subsidy. Quite to the contrary, VAT that is only partially-rebated effectively act as an export tax! The misconception stems from thinking the rebate is a tax break.[/quote]

It is not technically designed as an export subsidy, but that is effectively what it is, it allows manufacturers to sell goods to customers outside of the VAT zone at a lower cost than to customers in the zone.

In fact, the end consumer bears the entire VAT, as a manufacturer gets a credit against the VAT that it has to pay against the VAT that it has to remit, and gets to cross credit their input VAT across all of its sales, whether the supply is made within the VAT area or not.

I know a lot more about taxes than I do about Bruckner <EMOJI seq="1f600" tseq="1f600">😀</EMOJI>
</QUOTE>

Well, not at a lower cost, but a lower price for the foreign consumer compared to the domestic consumer. That price difference is the amount of the tax, which the manufacturer doesn't normally pay anyway. And when selling into the US, that makes no difference on the US consumer. They're not paying less for the German made product than an identical US made product since the US made product would also never have 19% tax on it...they're paying less than a German consumer would, but that's merely the fact that Germany taxes sales and the US doesn't. The German consumer also pays 19% more on imported American goods than the American consumer does.

Where it does make a small difference in certain cases, as you note, is the fact that all input VAT can be deducted from the owed VAT, whether they could actually charge VAT on every sale or not. So in my simplified earlier example with the trombones, yeah, the German maker actually gets to deduct the VAT on its expenses for the trombone sold in the US from the VAT on the profit of their EU sales. So if fully rebated, there could be scenarios where the input VAT entirely cancels out the owed VAT, giving the exporter somewhat of a financial benefit compared to selling only domestically, which would in a way amount to a small export subsidy. However, there's two important caveats here.

1) the VAT isn't always fully-rebated, which raises the threshold where that scenario would be applicable

2) you can't claim more VAT deductions than the VAT you owe. So the company needs to have enough domestic sales to actually owe VAT, against which their input VAT can be deducted. If a company sells majoritarily abroad, then they have less owed VAT than input VAT (or eventually, if they sell only abroad, owe no VAT at all), in which case they'd be the hook for the balance of their input VAT that couldn't be deducted, and therefore at a serious disadvantage. That is, unless it's rebated.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-03-06 9:55 p.m.

(by the way I'm by no means an expert on this, and I'm sure there's some details of it I don't understand correctly, but being active as an independent service provider almost entirely in countries that have VAT, I've had to read up on that subject a bit. Of course every jurisdiction does things a bit differently)

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-07 6:35 a.m.

Good overview. Reuters 2/21:

Why Trump has thrown VAT into the trade stand-off

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.reuters.com/world/us/why-tr ... 025-02-21/">https://www.reuters.com/world/us/why-trump-has-thrown-vat-into-trade-stand-off-2025-02-21/</LINK_TEXT>

dembones · by **dembones** » 2025-03-07 8:25 a.m.

There is nothing trombone-specific about tariffs. They will affect everything.

Disagreement is fine. But this thread has devolved into the vitriolic and devisive noise that is found on social media and that I avoid as much as possible.

If the goal of this site is to bring the trombone community together, then this thread is undermining that goal.

I wish admins would close this thread. Can we talk about trombones now?

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2025-03-07 9:01 a.m.

[quote="dembones"]

I wish admins would close this thread. Can we talk about trombones now?[/quote]

Talk about trombones on TROMBONE CHAT?

Perish the thought!

I just love hearing the political opinions of such experts. <EMOJI seq="1f604" tseq="1f604">😄</EMOJI>

TomInME · by **TomInME** » 2025-03-07 11:41 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I really wish somebody would clue Trump about Smoot and Hawley. They basically sabotaged Herbert Hoover's presidency creating the Great Depression.[/quote]

THIS. Free markets need predictability to thrive, and Trump-lovers praise his unpredictability.

De-regulation and indiscriminate cutting don't make things more predictable either...

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2025-03-07 12:03 p.m.

I'm not a VAT expert. So I might have misunderstood.

I lived in Germany for five years. VAT was included in anything that was purchased. It was automatically part of the price, so no additional calculation was needed to add tax at the register. If it cost 3 Euro, I paid 3 Euro, not 3.18 like in the US.

That was true if it was a US product or a German product. A German buying a German car paid VAT. Buying an American car, paid VAT.

There was a loophole for US citizens in a special category. Because of a clause in the SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement), we could exempt a limited number of purchases during our stay. Our passport had to have the SOFA stamp, and we had to submit a form to the vendor. It was a hassle, and only worth doing for a large purchase.

LowBrassJunkie · by **LowBrassJunkie** » 2025-03-07 12:14 p.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]Lots of aggressive European opinions on American positions... I get it you, you have a wedgie about it, ultimately i'm just giving you a different perspective. You'd rather just insult people than provide any valuable information or opinions, and like your fascistic tendencies of many of you suggest, you just prefer to silence, we know that, and have seen it many times.

Unfortunately I'm entitled to be an American and have opinions, too, despite your preference to belittle me on every thread... sorry, we live in a new paradigm. The USA that caters to you, but you don't pay your fare share (NATO perfect example) doesn't exist anymore.

The hypocrisy of calling tariffs extortion, and then having no issue with the tariffs being used against the USA is proving my point, but that's par for the course with this one .

Again, Tariffs are not the end game, as I recommended before, read the Art of the Deal. How many deals have you won by antagonism? Does that get you very far? We won't always see things the same way,[/quote]

We are entitled as Americans to be dense fools, you are correct.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-03-07 1:01 p.m.

Well, someone quoted Van's post for me to see. It's funny that he antagonizes forum members with statements like:

Lots of aggressive European opinions on American positions...

...I get it you, you have a wedgie about it...

...You'd rather just insult people than provide any valuable information

...like your fascistic tendencies

...you just prefer to silence, we know that.

...despite your preference to belittle me on every thread...

...you don't pay your fare share (NATO perfect example)

...The hypocrisy of calling tariffs extortion, and then having no issue with the tariffs being used against the USA is proving my point, but that's par for the course with this one.

All that from just one post! And then with an impressively ironic lack of self-awareness he says,

"How many deals have you won by antagonism? Does that get you very far?"

Both Van's and Trump's approach are all antagonism and playing victim. Van talks about imposing tariffs as the start of negotiations, but really tariffs are meant to be imposed only when all attempts to negotiate have failed. To do them up front is...wait for it...incredibly antagonistic. And the antagonist approach from Trump just harms innocent consumers merely looking for trombones and trombone-related products, and doesn't exactly help the stocks and commodities markets, either.

However, I have really been enjoying getting an education on the Value Added Tax. And I, personally, greatly respect and enjoy hearing the perspectives and opinions of non-Americans, and particularly Canadians and Europeans. I've heard from plenty of Van-Americans at this point. I'd like to continue to hear from some others, please.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-07 1:04 p.m.

"Chess speaks for itself"

-HN

JTeagarden · by **JTeagarden** » 2025-03-07 2:04 p.m.

There are of course a lot of components to the composition of our current economy:

- the substantially increased productivity of manufacturing labor through technology in the last 40 years;

- a focus, especially in the US, on consumption as opposed to labor as the basis of economic policy;

- the explosion of consumer credit to fund consumption if you can't afford it;

- a general, triumphalist view of history that concludes that trading with people will make them more more like us.

It was easy to convince US companies that establishing operations in China was somehow in everyone's interest, and while it has increased consumption, and wealth on average, it has come at a cost to blue-collar workers in the US, who have very little job security these days.

We have basically created our own geopolitical adversary (China) by allowing it to make all our goods, and to finance our government debt.

But ... you can't put this genie back in the bottle with a few tariffs.

TomInME · by **TomInME** » 2025-03-08 11:41 a.m.

A sensible post! Trump won by telling blue collar workers that he would bring those jobs back. But corporations won't bring those jobs back unless they can do it more cheaply long-term (impossible without a gigantic recession) or if Walmart shoppers (often blue collar) start buying more-expensive US products (also impossible without huge increases in the cost of everything).

But it's easier to sell extravagant dreams than build functional realities.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-08 11:50 a.m.

UAW statement on Tariff Action

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-03-08 1:22 p.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]UAW statement on Tariff Action[/quote]

I'm not a supporter of unbridled free trade, I'm very much pro-unions and workers' rights, and I'm definitely of the opinion that big corporations are not paying anywhere near their fair share (when they're paying anything at all). I think invoking free-trade to move jobs to third-world and developing countries in order to maximise profits is disgusting (but that ship has unfortunately pretty much sailed, with corporate America at the helm – the very corporate America that's living its biggest fantasy right now).

But I'll point out, for this one particular case, that Canadian auto workers have better compensation and better conditions than their US counterparts. In fact they split from the UAW to form their own Canadian union back in the 80s because the UAW was agreeing to too many concessions. So, as far as Canada and its auto industry go, the UAW's argument that corporations are killing blue collar jobs in the US by "exploiting some poor worker in another country and paying them poverty wages" simply doesn't hold water. In a lot of cases, yes, but not in the case of auto plants in Canada.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-03-08 1:41 p.m.

Chapter 23 of the USMCA sets out minimum labour standards. According to US Dept of Labour:

The United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA) has the strongest and most far-reaching labor provisions of any trade agreement. The agreement contains a labor chapter that prioritizes labor obligations by including them in the core of the agreement and making them fully enforceable. This is a major change from NAFTA, which only contained a side agreement on labor, and it greatly benefits American workers and businesses by holding Mexican manufacturers to the same labor standards as employers in the United States.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-08 1:52 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="Doubler" post_id="269247" time="1741237987" user_id="4261">
Would someone please explain to me why reciprocal tariffs would be unfair? Wouldn't the end result be negotiating away tariffs altogether? Wouldn't that result in lower costs and prices across the board? Am I missing something here?[/quote]

Yes, you're missing something: the fact that they're not reciprocal. Canada overall didn't have tariffs on US goods – we have a free trade agreement (that Trump himself renegociated). [edit for clarity: there were small tariffs on both sides on a few specific industries, but those amounted to less than 1% on average overall. And again, on both sides.] The US put this 25% tariff on Canadian goods for reasons they themselves don't seem to be sure of and seem to depend on what mood one particular person is in on any particular day. One day it's about fentanyl and the border, one day it's about putting "reciprocal" tariffs in place – but "reciprocal" to what? – and one day it's about a trade deficit and sticking it up to people who've supposedly been abusing the US through "unfair deals". By the way, the legal basis for the tariffs (because tariffs do have to be legally justified when they go against a trade deal that has been signed into law by Congress!) is the national emergency of uncontrolled influx illegal aliens and fentanyl, not "reciprocal" tariffs. If they had justified them as reciprocal tariffs, they could have been struck down by US courts because it's easy to demonstrate they violate the law. Invoking the national border emergency makes it impossible to challenge because that emergency is also declared by the executive, even when it's really obvious that at least on the Canadian side, the claim is bogus.

I don't know what the official justification for tariffs on European imports will be, but whatever it is, the real reason won't really be about "reciprocal" tariffs: there are currently very small tariffs on both sides, and already more tariffs on European imports into the US than on American imports the EU (the US has about 1.4% tariffs on average, the EU 0.9%). Putting 25% tariffs on EU import is not going to be "reciprocal" to anything, whatever the guys in power claim.
</QUOTE>

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-03-08 3:26 p.m.

From Reuters:

‘Most of the $1.6 trillion in two-way U.S. trade with Canada and Mexico crosses borders duty free under terms of the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Agreement on trade, which Trump signed in 2020.

Among the few exceptions are Canada's high tariffs on dairy products that are part of its decades-old Supply Management system to protect Canadian dairy farmers. The system also includes import quotas and domestic production constraints to support prices.

The USMCA deal provided limited duty-free quotas for U.S. dairy products, but for anything above these levels, tariffs on specific products can exceed 200%. Washington for years has unsuccessfully challenged the way that Ottawa has allocated the USMCA dairy quotas.’

I recall the negotiations on dairy being very contentious but ultimately an agreement was reached.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2025-03-08 7:46 p.m.

[quote="JTeagarden"]There are of course a lot of components to the composition of our current economy:
[/quote]

Two significant ones you missed:

The gradual adoption of the mindset that there is only one metric: value/profit to shareholders. This is relatively new, mostly post-Jack Welch at GE, but it is so thoroughly ingrained that it's now just a basic assumption everyone shares. (Jack was one of the first to really move overseas in a big way, and also to realize he could make lots more money in finance than in manufacturing.)

Second, an economy that depends on growth to function requires the assumption of infinite growth. We know that isn't possible but "it will last our time."

JTeagarden · by **JTeagarden** » 2025-03-08 7:52 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="JTeagarden" post_id="269439" time="1741374273" user_id="19182">
There are of course a lot of components to the composition of our current economy:
[/quote]

Two significant ones you missed:

The gradual adoption of the mindset that there is only one metric: value/profit to shareholders. This is relatively new, mostly post-Jack Welch at GE, but it is so thoroughly ingrained that it's now just a basic assumption everyone shares. (Jack was one of the first to really move overseas in a big way, and also to realize he could make lots more money in finance than in manufacturing.)

Second, an economy that depends on growth to function requires the assumption of infinite growth. We know that isn't possible but "it will last our time."
</QUOTE>

Valid points

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2025-03-09 10:10 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]

The gradual adoption of the mindset that there is only one metric: value/profit to shareholders. This is relatively new, mostly post-Jack Welch at GE, but it is so thoroughly ingrained that it's now just a basic assumption everyone shares. (Jack was one of the first to really move overseas in a big way, and also to realize he could make lots more money in finance than in manufacturing.)[/quote]

Actually, the idea that value/profit to shareholders being the sole function of business goes back a lot farther than that. In its modern incarnation it is attributable to Milton Friedman and the Chicago School of Economics. Friedman published a piece in the NY Times in 1970 pronouncing the so-called Friedman Doctrine. The title says everything that needs be said: A Friedman Doctrine: The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase Its Profits. Under the Friedman Doctrine, a business owes no social responsibility to the public or the greater society. Its only responsibility was to its shareholders.

In the 1980s, Jack Welch took that idea and ran with it. I don't know if Welch was a devotee of Friedman or if he came up with idea on his own.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-03-09 10:22 p.m.

Ontario is set to impose a 25% export tax on electricity tomorrow (March 10).

A local academic, Joel Bacon, maintained corporations are similar to psychopaths in that they act solely in their own interest. He had a film out, The Corporation, that investigated this idea a few years ago.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-03-09 10:30 p.m.

Canadian elections are over.

Best wishes to our northern neighbors.

[Or to our ten new States and three new Territories? :idk:

Wonder how they'll vote? ]

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-03-09 10:34 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]Canadian elections are over.

Best wishes to our northern neighbors.

[Or to our ten new States and three new Territories? :idk:

Wonder how they'll vote? ][/quote]

No. The party currently holding the most seats in parliament selected a new leader who will become the prime minister. It is expected he will call a federal election although he doesn’t have to any time soon.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-03-09 10:38 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]Canadian [Liberal Party] elections are over.

Best wishes to our northern neighbors.

[Or to our ten new States and three new Territories? :idk:

Wonder how they'll vote in the upcoming federal election?][/quote]

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-03-09 11:11 p.m.

I would guess that in the extremely unlikely event that Canada became part of the US, the new states would vote overwhelmingly Democratic. It is also worth mentioning that Canada is a larger country (geographically) than the US - the 2nd largest in the world after Russia, with 6 time zones.

We've been told that the tariffs are in response to fentanyl crossing the border - a couple of figures provided from customs/border services regarding seizures in 2024:

Fentanyl:

Mexico to US - 21,148 Lbs.

Canada to US - 43 Lbs.

US to Canada - 882 Lbs.

So just skipping the Mexico figure for now, I just want to point out that the figure for the seizures of Fentanyl from the US to Canada is roughly 20 times the size of the reverse.

Also, since this is all about potential loss of life, I feel like I should include this other statistic, also from border seizures:

Illegal gun seizures at the border:

Canada to US - 3,000

Mexico to US - 16,000

US to Canada - 30,000

In all the years that I've been an American living/working in Canada, most of the time I had a slight dilemma deciding who to root for in sporting events, etc. There is no such problem with this situation.

Jim Scott

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2025-03-09 11:43 p.m.

I remember political discussions destroying the old "Trombone Forum". Would a moderator be willing to "Pull The Plug" on this one ? If all our displayed talent were redirected towards discussing the role of the trombone in the works of Dvorak, Tschaikovsky and Sibelius, we would all be the better for it. We can find plenty of other places to discuss politics. This is NOT the place. :weep:

Doubler · by **Doubler** » 2025-03-09 11:45 p.m.

There sure is a lot of discussion about tariffs these days, both on TB and elsewhere. Speculation ranges from approval as a necessary evil to alarmism. Results will become clearer over time, and I believe that they will be far less dramatic than feared, especially since all parties involved continue to adjust to new and rapidly changing policies that negotiations demand. In the meantime...<EMOJI seq="1f37f" tseq="1f37f">🍿</EMOJI>

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-03-09 11:48 p.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]Illegal gun seizures at the border:

Canada to US - 3,000

Mexico to US - 16,000

US to Canada - 30,000[/quote]

Not to mention the huge quantity of U.S. firearms smuggled to Mexico (with the tacit approval / encouragement of U.S. gun manufacturers)!

"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has released records detailing the origin of guns smuggled from the United States to Mexico and Central America, marking just the second time in more than 20 years that the agency has disclosed the contents of its firearms tracing database.

The records form the basis of a new report from Stop US Arms to Mexico, a nonprofit in Oakland, California, that works to prevent gun trafficking. According to the report, more than 50,000 firearms were smuggled over the U.S. border into Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador between 2015 and 2022. The weapons traced back to nearly every U.S. ZIP code, indicating that the sources of crime guns trafficked to Mexico and Central America are not as heavily concentrated along the southern border as previously thought."

This is more than a disgrace. We (the U.S.) supply most of the weapons to the Mexican drug cartels to carry out their ruthless business. :horror:

Bach5G · 2025-03-10 12:13 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="269654" time="1741573801" user_id="158">
Canadian [Liberal Party] elections are over.

Best wishes to our northern neighbors.

[Or to our ten new States and three new Territories? :idk:

Wonder how they'll vote in the upcoming federal election?][/quote]
</QUOTE>

Thank you.

After leading the polls for the past three years, the Conservatives and their Trump acolyte suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of a rising tide of Canadian patriotism.

The new guy has an impressive resume: born and raised in N Alberta, Harvard, Oxford PhD (economics), Goldman Sachs, Gov of Bank of Canada, Gov of Bank of England, UN climate change guy. Plays goal. Received 85% of the votes cast in the election. I have high hopes for this guy.

Slidennis · by **Slidennis** » 2025-03-10 7:49 a.m.

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going"

Trump believes he is, but he is not.

He just makes the real tough guys come into action.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-03-11 11:10 a.m.

Make that 50%

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-03-11 11:37 a.m.

This is not going to help the auto industry, for these reasons:

1. Canada provides subassemblies for auto production that the US does not make.

2. Canada has assembly plants that use American subassemblies to produce autos both for US and Canadian consumption.

3. The production that Trump thinks can just go to US plants will require retooling and/or new facilities that can take years to build. It's not like we have this unused pool of equipment just waiting to have the switch turned on.

Also, the design cycle of automobiles takes around 5 years. A change in design requirements won't take place until the 2030 model year.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-03-11 11:48 a.m.

So the next step is for DoFo to increase the tariff on electricity exports to 50%?

Given the rhetoric (“I will shortly be declaring a National Emergency on Electricity within the threatened area. This will allow the U.S to quickly do what has to be done to alleviate this abusive threat from Canada”) does Trump start marshalling the invasion force on the border a la Putin in Feb 2022? Should Canadians prepare to blow up the Ambassador bridge?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-03-11 1:39 p.m.

Wait until he realizes that the reason we are importing power from Canada is because we don't have enough domestic generators. Want more? Even if the permitting process were bypassed (something he seems to like) we are still looking at 2-3 years (more for a Nuke) to build the plants. I really don't think Dear Leader understands how this works.

slidesix · by **slidesix** » 2025-03-11 10:46 p.m.

Man, 25% tariffs?!? There goes my dream of buying a Courtois tenor trombone!! (420 or 440)

JMcV · by **JMcV** » 2025-03-13 8:26 p.m.

FWIW, I am expecting Monday delivery of a new K&H .527, from Thomann USA. No VAT, just a $70 shipping fee. I will be glad to receive it before any new tariffs go into effect. I've purchased a number of Josef Klier mouthpieces through Thomann USA, no VAT, and very quick, efficient service.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-03-14 9:07 a.m.

[quote="JMcV"]FWIW, I am expecting Monday delivery of a new K&H .527, from Thomann USA. No VAT, just a $70 shipping fee. I will be glad to receive it before any new tariffs go into effect. I've purchased a number of Josef Klier mouthpieces through Thomann USA, no VAT, and very quick, efficient service.[/quote]

There never is VAT when importing a product into the US.

JMcV · by **JMcV** » 2025-03-14 10:20 a.m.

Wouldn't you know it....I spoke too soon. Just got a notification from UPS on import duties due on my incoming K&H. Fortunately just $79, or around 3.5% of the purchase price. I know it isn't VAT, so it must be pre-existing tariffs that were already in place on EU imports? Still a lot better than the threatened 25%.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-03-14 10:31 a.m.

[quote="JMcV"]Wouldn't you know it....I spoke too soon. Just got a notification from UPS on import duties due on my incoming K&H. Fortunately just $79, or around 3.5% of the purchase price. I know it isn't VAT, so it must be pre-existing tariffs that were already in place on EU imports? Still a lot better than the threatened 25%.[/quote]

There have been import duties (essentially the same thing as tariffs) on foreign made goods almost since there was a USA. Before he became Vice-President, Chester Arthur was a Customs Collector of the Port of New York. And he became President on the assassination of James Garfield in 1881.

US Citizens are exempted from duties on goods up to a certain amount. You may be paying duties on whatever exceeds that limit. Duties vary by what is being imported. You can research this on the US Customs Web Site if it hasn't been taken down as some kind of Elon Cost Saving.

JMcV · by **JMcV** » 2025-03-14 10:35 a.m.

Thanks Bruce, that explains it. And why I haven't had to pay these duties on smaller purchases like JK mouthpieces.

LeTromboniste · 2025-03-14 3:03 p.m.

[quote="JMcV"]Wouldn't you know it....I spoke too soon. Just got a notification from UPS on import duties due on my incoming K&H. Fortunately just $79, or around 3.5% of the purchase price. I know it isn't VAT, so it must be pre-existing tariffs that were already in place on EU imports? Still a lot better than the threatened 25%.[/quote]

Those import duties are likely not a tarif nor a tax, they're a fee UPS charges you for handling the importation for you. You're lucky they're only $79. I've gotten invoices for these fees from UPS and FedEx for $200+ in the past. They're part of the reason those companies can charge slightly less for shipping than the public postal system while still making a profit: they catch up by then charging the recipient those fees, with a completely unpredictable and opaque fee structure.

In total, when taking these fees into account, shipping with the private companies is always more expensive overall that what the public post (USPS for you) charges, as the public services typically charge the sender just slightly more for shipping (although sometimes its still less than UPS even there), but then don't charge the recipient for customs brokerage.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-03-14 4:16 p.m.

To find information on US tariffs, the relevant resource is the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States (HTS), maintained by the United States International Trade Commission (USITC).

The HTS is a comprehensive database that lists all tariff rates and statistical categories for goods imported into the United States.

https://hts.usitc.gov/

MomSoldMyHolton · by **MomSoldMyHolton** » 2025-03-14 4:39 p.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="269013" time="1741092667" user_id="3205">
Much of the material to make a brass instrument is not produced in the USA. It doesn't matter what brand you're talking about. So saying "Made in USA", while I absolutely support that ideal, is an ill.informed, simplistic view point.[/quote]

The notion that tariffs are permanent is short-sighted, ill informed, and simplistic. The USA has effectively been paying unfairly with VAT for many years. We are doing "reciprocal" tariffs. The comment "Made in the USA" is in relation to the fact that the point is to negotiate better trade deals, part of which involves manufacturing (in other industries as well), and sourcing materials from less exploitative sources and avoiding bad import deals, or negotiating better ones. Sourcing materials where there are not unfair trade deals, so that there is actually an incentive to make everything like we used to in the USA. The point in many instances (we are not just talking about trombones and brass instruments) is to source everything we can either in the United States, negotiate more fair trade deals, and bring manufacturing back to the United States. Have a little faith. Read a book and relax. I recommend "The Art of the Deal".
</QUOTE>

I saw how this movie ends in Atlantic City in the late 80s with bankruptcy and the little guy holding the bag. I’ll take a pass on reading the book he didn’t actually write!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2025-03-19 8:59 a.m.

[quote="MomSoldMyHolton"]<QUOTE author="tromboneVan" post_id="269018" time="1741093581" user_id="6540">

The notion that tariffs are permanent is short-sighted, ill informed, and simplistic. The USA has effectively been paying unfairly with VAT for many years. We are doing "reciprocal" tariffs. The comment "Made in the USA" is in relation to the fact that the point is to negotiate better trade deals, part of which involves manufacturing (in other industries as well), and sourcing materials from less exploitative sources and avoiding bad import deals, or negotiating better ones. Sourcing materials where there are not unfair trade deals, so that there is actually an incentive to make everything like we used to in the USA. The point in many instances (we are not just talking about trombones and brass instruments) is to source everything we can either in the United States, negotiate more fair trade deals, and bring manufacturing back to the United States. Have a little faith. Read a book and relax. I recommend "The Art of the Deal".[/quote]

I saw how this movie ends in Atlantic City in the late 80s with bankruptcy and the little guy holding the bag. I’ll take a pass on reading the book he didn’t actually write!
</QUOTE>
Exactly!! BTW why did mom sell your Holton? And which Holton did she sell? :biggrin:

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2025-03-19 10:36 a.m.

I think the current exemption amount is $800 on imported stuff, at least for personal use. If you go over that you might have to pay duties in the USA.

Source - I am going to buy Line Audio mics from the UK (mics made in Sweden). If I stay below $800, no duties are due according to their policies.

There are similar limits when you fly into the USA.

MomSoldMyHolton · by **MomSoldMyHolton** » 2025-03-19 6:28 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="MomSoldMyHolton" post_id="270208" time="1741984741" user_id="18766">

I saw how this movie ends in Atlantic City in the late 80s with bankruptcy and the little guy holding the bag. I’ll take a pass on reading the book he didn’t actually write![/quote]
Exactly!! BTW why did mom sell your Holton? And which Holton did she sell? :biggrin:
</QUOTE>

The people that think this guy is a great, competent businessman didn’t see him bankrupt in the late 80s with his creditors putting him on an allowance like a child.

Ha, she had a friend who’s son started playing and I guess she thought since I was away at college and wasn’t playing at the time she’d do her friend a solid. Wouldn’t be surprised if she just gave it away- been pissed about it for years, lol! Pretty sure it was a TR-188.

Bach5G · 2025-03-27 12:14 a.m.

A parcel service in Pt. Roberts WA closed down after 24 years. This is what they said:

“It is with great sadness; however, with all the government changes and tariffs, it has affected our business four times worse than COVID ever did and only continues to decline at a rapid pace."

Pt Roberts is dependent on Canadian business as its only land access is through Canada.

The story:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.delta-optimist.com/highligh ... e-10427812">https://www.delta-optimist.com/highlights/border-town-business-completely-destroyed-by-us-trade-war-forced-to-close-10427812</LINK_TEXT>

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-03-27 1:38 a.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]A parcel service in Pt. Roberts WA closed down after 24 years. This is what they said:

“It is with great sadness; however, with all the government changes and tariffs, it has affected our business four times worse than COVID ever did and only continues to decline at a rapid pace."

Pt Roberts is dependent on Canadian business as its only land access is through Canada.[/quote]

:(

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2025-04-05 7:03 a.m.

Well..... These last days have been bizarre, in a way I think nobody could imagine.

The promotion of stupidity, ignorance and demented societal implementation of personal deficits is on a scale we haven't witnessed since the German and Soviet dictatorships of the 30's.

I would say that these tariffs is a way of breaking down the domestic economy and financial conditions to a state of emergency, dysfunction and provoked hostility from the rest of the world where the orange douche can use it as an excuse and a leverage to fully dismantle the state and its institutions to create a complete single rule, a totalitarian state.

"He who saves his Country does not violate any Law"......

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-04-05 7:49 a.m.

“Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. The inherent Virtue of Socialism is the Equal Sharing of Miseries” —Churchill

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-04-05 7:50 a.m.

I am currently in Europe, where the locals are confused and astonished at the idiocy coming out of Washington. Anger is welling up here. Tomorrow I will visit the Normandy D-Day beaches and cemeteries where Americans were once respected as saviors of Western civilization. Unfortunately, the U.S.A. is no longer considered the shining light of opportunity and fairness that it was just a few short years ago.

The world has changed irreversibly due to our abandoning our position of leadership in exchange for selfishness and thirst for power.

We are no longer trusted or trustworthy.

We have brought this upon ourselves.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-04-05 7:56 a.m.

Liberation Day.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/202 ... rosperity/">https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/04/week-11-wins-president-trump-unleashes-economic-prosperity/</LINK_TEXT>

SwissTbone · by **SwissTbone** » 2025-04-05 8:10 a.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]Liberation Day.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/202 ... rosperity/">https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/04/week-11-wins-president-trump-unleashes-economic-prosperity/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Sorry. I tried to keep out of politics. But... someone really believe what's written there? Are people really naive enough to swallow all this misleading information? Incredible.

I'll keep out again. But this I had to say.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-04-05 8:13 a.m.

[quote="SwissTbone"]<QUOTE author="tromboneVan" post_id="272194" time="1743854207" user_id="6540">
Liberation Day.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/202 ... rosperity/">https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/04/week-11-wins-president-trump-unleashes-economic-prosperity/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

Sorry. I tried to keep out of politics. But... someone really believe what's written there? Are people really naive enough to swallow all this misleading information? Incredible.

I'll keep out again. But this I had to say.
</QUOTE>

Literal current events. I guess reality is triggering when you live in a bubble of mainstream media propaganda.

“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.”

― Ronald Reagan

Bach5G · 2025-04-05 9:43 a.m.

It’s funny to read “when you live in a bubble of mainstream media propaganda”.

Yesterday, my wife and I flipped between several stations including CBC, CNBC, MSNBC and CNN, as the Dow dropped under 39,000. Everybody was talking tariffs and economics, except Al Jazeera, which was talking Gaza. And then there was Fox which was talking about Biden’s immigration policies. Tell me about propaganda. Tell me about a bubble.

All of this chaos is caused by one person. None of it is necessary.

It’s also funny (in an ironic way) to read quotes from Churchill and Reagan about Soviet Russia. Putin’s Russia is America’s new best friend.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-04-05 9:58 a.m.

Trump's Presidential Address 2025 Remix

<YOUTUBE id="jCMqsIiW_PU" list="PLUPm2n6QJX5roxS3-Hs7QN8K3iBZid-K7"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCMqsIi ... K3iBZid-K7">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCMqsIiW_PU&list=PLUPm2n6QJX5roxS3-Hs7QN8K3iBZid-K7</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2025-04-05 10:18 a.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]“Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. The inherent Virtue of Socialism is the Equal Sharing of Miseries” —Churchill[/quote]

If this is the definition you go by, then the orange douche most definitely is a socialist since it so generously shares its anger, grief, desperate need for vengeance, superstition, ignorance, fear of weakness, mental illness and whatnot of personal shortcomings and deficits with the rest of the world - the rest of us. I, for one, haven't asked for a mobile pile of crap to impose itself on my conditions and situations, but here I am, having to take it.

Maybe it could even be classified as a communist, whereas Churchill defined one thusly: "A communist is like a crocodile: when it opens its mouth you cannot tell whether it is trying to smile or preparing to eat you up".

[quote="tromboneVan"]Trump's Presidential Address 2025 Remix

<YOUTUBE id="jCMqsIiW_PU" list="PLUPm2n6QJX5roxS3-Hs7QN8K3iBZid-K7"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCMqsIi ... K3iBZid-K7">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCMqsIiW_PU&list=PLUPm2n6QJX5roxS3-Hs7QN8K3iBZid-K7</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>[/quote]

A classic example of demented delusion and a disturbed perception and view of the world. The White House is now an asylum, rather than the office of an administration.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2025-04-05 10:33 a.m.

I suspect Russian socialism has been over for 35 years. What is left is the authoritarian state, which is indistinguishable from organized crime, and the secret police.

But it appears that Russia is America’s new best friend.

Forget Churchill and Reagan. Edward Grey is back in style.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-04-05 10:34 a.m.

"From 1789-1913, we were a tariff-backed nation, and the United States was proportionally the wealthiest it has ever been -- Then in 1913, for reasons unknown to mankind, they established the income tax -- We are going to start being smart and we are going to start being wealthy again." DJT

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2025-04-05 10:55 a.m.

Not sure if it helps to just share several quotes without context. Don't measure people by what they say but by what they do.

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2025-04-05 10:59 a.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]"From 1789-1913, we were a tariff-backed nation, and the United States was proportionally the wealthiest it has ever been -- Then in 1913, for reasons unknown to mankind, they established the income tax -- We are going to start being smart and we are going to start being wealthy again." DJT[/quote]

I guess neither of you are aware that 1913 was 112 years ago?

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2025-04-05 11:10 a.m.

[quote="EriKon"]Don't measure people by what they say but by what they do.[/quote]

When you see what they do, it's already done and often too late.

Most politicians, and definitely the would-be autocrats, actually mean to pursue the policies they say they will if they come to power. There are no real examples throughout history, where an aspiring autocrat not has imposed autocratic policies when in power, after a campaigning where stating they will do so when possible.

So: With politicians, the lesson we should learn is that they always will - or at least will make a serious try - to make their stated policies come through if and when they come to power.

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-04-05 11:27 a.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]Liberation Day.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/202 ... rosperity/">https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/04/week-11-wins-president-trump-unleashes-economic-prosperity/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

"WEEK 11 WINS: President Trump Unleashes Economic Prosperity"

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/202 ... rosperity/">https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/04/week-11-wins-president-trump-unleashes-economic-prosperity/</LINK_TEXT>

^^^

This should be plenty context for just Week 11... Being an American, versus a European projecting what they want the USA to be, like their country, is the conflict. America should in my opinion put its own people first, before the needs and interests of those in Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, etc. I think that might be the context. Why would any nation put the interests of other countries before their own? As stated earlier in this thread, the tariffs would bring manufacturing back to the United States, as well as prompt renegotiating bad for America trade deals, both which are occurring... Of course the EU is pissed about it, because the US has been sold out to bad, weak policies for too long. People voted to see the change that is occurring and evidenced by the not-so-convenient facts of this working. Manufacturing particularly of various EV car components, for example, Honda & Nissan, others opening plants in the US. Many events occurring which just a few weeks ago some said were impossible and would never happen. Sorry, but not sorry that every day Americans are happy to see policies put into effect, that will improve life for regular blue collar Americans in America occurring.

bassbone1993 · by **bassbone1993** » 2025-04-05 11:33 a.m.

I'm just going to assume the tariffs are going to come back to bite us at some point.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2025-04-05 11:43 a.m.

[quote="bassbone1993"]I'm just going to assume the tariffs are going to come back to bite us at some point.[/quote]

Fairly safe assumption.

If not, pretty much every professional economist is wrong.

(But what do they know. They're probably all "socialists.")

bassbone1993 · by **bassbone1993** » 2025-04-05 11:58 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="bassbone1993" post_id="272229" time="1743867185" user_id="16272">
I'm just going to assume the tariffs are going to come back to bite us at some point.[/quote]

Fairly safe assumption.

If not, pretty much every professional economist is wrong.

(But what do they know. They're probably all "socialists.")
</QUOTE>

I'm not an economist, but I am a social worker. Right now things are actively on fire so I'm assuming everything will be at some point

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2025-04-05 12:28 p.m.

[quote="tromboneVan"]<QUOTE author="tromboneVan" post_id="272194" time="1743854207" user_id="6540">
Liberation Day.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/202 ... rosperity/">https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/04/week-11-wins-president-trump-unleashes-economic-prosperity/</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

"WEEK 11 WINS: President Trump Unleashes Economic Prosperity"

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/202 ... rosperity/">https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/04/week-11-wins-president-trump-unleashes-economic-prosperity/</LINK_TEXT>

^^^

This should be plenty context for just Week 11... Being an American, versus a European projecting what they want the USA to be, like their country, is the conflict. America should in my opinion put its own people first, before the needs and interests of those in Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, etc. I think that might be the context. Why would any nation put the interests of other countries before their own? As stated earlier in this thread, the tariffs would bring manufacturing back to the United States, as well as prompt renegotiating bad for America trade deals, both which are occurring... Of course the EU is pissed about it, because the US has been sold out to bad, weak policies for too long. People voted to see the change that is occurring and evidenced by the not-so-convenient facts of this working. Manufacturing particularly of various EV car components, for example, Honda & Nissan, others opening plants in the US. Many events occurring which just a few weeks ago some said were impossible and would never happen. Sorry, but not sorry that every day Americans are happy to see policies put into effect, that will improve life for regular blue collar Americans in America occurring.
</QUOTE>

You're hallucinating.

Regardless of what you have been led to belive, this is not how modern economy and financial systems work. The prospects laid out for the tariffs are based on lies and deliberately misleading statements and conditions.

Besides the economic turmoil that now is churned up, the tariffs and the financial ruckus are not what's bothering me. If you truly believe that the material welfare of the regular blue-collar American worker is the issue for me, or even a remote consideration for the orange douche, you are misled and tricked into a political process that in the end will deprive you of anything and everything you today take for granted.

The orange douche isn't bereaving me my constitutional rights, nor is it jeopardizing my health and my immunity from diseases and my capability to pay for my commodities and my living. I am concerned about what is happening to the common regular U.S.A. that once was a source of many desired influences, knowledge and culture, but now rapidly declines into a second grade backwards, totalitarian, fundamentalist state.

Have you f.ex. seen the last decades of development of life expectancy in the U.S. - even among the wealthiest percentile? This administration is going to significantly widen the negative gap to f.ex. Europe with its policies.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-04-05 12:38 p.m.

I'm not clear what the tariff game plan is.

I keep hearing about how this will benefit Americans after "temporary pain." But no one ever says what those benefits will be. What will they be to me? I'm going to have to pay even higher prices as inflation heats up again, and there will be shortages of products I buy, especially food and electronics.

So, after these "weeks" of "temporary pain," and reignited inflation, what are the concrete benefits that I will realize?

Will prices come down a few weeks from now? Highly doubtful. Within a year? Still, no. Will wages rise? Absolutely not.

So specifically and concretely, what good will this do for the average American worker?

tromboneVan · by **tromboneVan** » 2025-04-05 12:41 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="bassbone1993" post_id="272229" time="1743867185" user_id="16272">
I'm just going to assume the tariffs are going to come back to bite us at some point.[/quote]

Fairly safe assumption.

If not, pretty much every professional economist is wrong.

(But what do they know. They're probably all "socialists.")
</QUOTE>

:lol:

Probably... and/or bought.

bassbone1993 · by **bassbone1993** » 2025-04-05 1:09 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I'm not clear what the tariff game plan is.

I keep hearing about how this will benefit Americans after "temporary pain." But no one ever says what those benefits will be. What will they be to me? I'm going to have to pay even higher prices as inflation heats up again, and there will be shortages of products I buy, especially food and electronics.

So, after these "weeks" of "temporary pain," and reignited inflation, what are the concrete benefits that I will realize?

Will prices come down a few weeks from now? Highly doubtful. Within a year? Still, no. Will wages rise? Absolutely not.

So specifically and concretely, what good will this do for the average American worker?[/quote]

This is where I'm at. It's not clear what the actual benefits will be or how long its going to take to see the benefits. That info would probably come from economists, and the vast majority think the tariffs are beyond foolish.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-04-05 1:17 p.m.

I had planned to make a post explaining how tariffs work for the benefit of those who think they are going to pour money into the US at the expense of the rest of the world, but I'm not. This topic has gone a bit too political for our policy here and I'm going to lock it.

Maybe I'll unlock it (or maybe somebody else will; lobby your favorite Moderator) in a couple of weeks when things quiet down.

Quick Links

Instruments

Marketplace

25%Tariffs