The Saxobone: A Mix of Trombone and Saxophone
- EmeraldTheFox
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mar 04, 2025
A few months back I tried to attach an alto saxophone mouthpiece to my trumpet just for the silly, and I found it worked, though it was a bit difficult to get good at. I then tried the same thing when I got my trombone last year and it worked, although it put the trombone in the key of D instead of Bb. I was wondering if y'all have any suggestions on how to maybe make this into an actual instrument? Even if it'd be impractical, or even just as kind of a gag instrument, I still think it'd be fun to mess around with. I was thinking maybe adding some cork to the mouthpiece receiver to create a seal between the sax mp and the trombone? Also an "octave" key mechanism would be nice, though I feel that would just work more like a partial shifter, similar to changing your embouchure on a brass mouthpiece. Any thoughts or ideas would be great!
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Well, you've got to stop putting the sax mouthpiece on cylindrical instruments. The saxophone is conical. So get a euphonium and put it on that. :roll: But the whole thing is pretty disturbing -- and I say that as a saxophone, trombone, and euphonium/tuba player.
- EmeraldTheFox
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mar 04, 2025
I never thought about it like that! I wonder ehat tonal difference it'll make. Sadly, I don't have a euphonium or other conical instrument to put it on besides my two alto saxes. If I ever get my hands on another euph (the last time I did was when I played one in my Sophomore year of high school) I'll experiment with that!
- mbarbier
- Posts: 367
- Joined: May 17, 2018
Spent a little more time than mentally healthy on this subject. At the core, just mess around as there's a lot of variance between every instrument, but also follow the logic of what's meant for what. Ie, alto sax MP resonates a lot higher than the trombone so it tends to lead to a lot of unpredictable weirdness- tenor and bari sax MP pair a lot better. Clarinet MP leads to some interesting results.
However, I find there's a lot more control, reliability, and variety of sound with tenor sax MP on a euphonium. Funnily enough clarinet works well on bass trumpet.
In addition to pairing frequency ranges, the mode of connection makes a big difference and recommend just kinda messing around to find the best set-up that works with your horns. For mine, I milled out and threaded a mouthpiece and then screw my tenor and bari sax MP into that. You can also do the more traditional way of just plugging it into a mouthpiece and tacking it in with poster tack. For clarinet MP and bass trumpet, I find the mouthpiece just stuck around the lead pipe works best. Which is kinda funny given that both are connected the opposite way that they're intended. I can take a picture to post when I'm home.
The water key works really well. On some spots it functions like an octave key, on other like a fifth key. In a few other spots it does both, depending on how open it is.
Here's my most recent record that's mostly just a long solo for euphonium with tenor sax MP.
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="
https://dinzuartefacts.bandcamp.com/al ... n-my-ribs
">
https://dinzuartefacts.bandcamp.com/album/paper-blown-between-the-spaces-in-my-ribs
</LINK_TEXT>
Here's a different record that has a version that's not 35 minutes
[url]https://sofamusic.bandcamp.com/album/threads
Here's a few clips of the bass trumpet stuff:
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.instagram.com/p/DFqeoyKSJq9 ... BiNWFlZA==">https://www.instagram.com/p/DFqeoyKSJq9/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==</LINK_TEXT>
It's a fun rabbit hole that can really function well as a real instrument. Takes a lot of time, but is a good time
However, I find there's a lot more control, reliability, and variety of sound with tenor sax MP on a euphonium. Funnily enough clarinet works well on bass trumpet.
In addition to pairing frequency ranges, the mode of connection makes a big difference and recommend just kinda messing around to find the best set-up that works with your horns. For mine, I milled out and threaded a mouthpiece and then screw my tenor and bari sax MP into that. You can also do the more traditional way of just plugging it into a mouthpiece and tacking it in with poster tack. For clarinet MP and bass trumpet, I find the mouthpiece just stuck around the lead pipe works best. Which is kinda funny given that both are connected the opposite way that they're intended. I can take a picture to post when I'm home.
The water key works really well. On some spots it functions like an octave key, on other like a fifth key. In a few other spots it does both, depending on how open it is.
Here's my most recent record that's mostly just a long solo for euphonium with tenor sax MP.
https://dinzuartefacts.bandcamp.com/al ... n-my-ribs
">
https://dinzuartefacts.bandcamp.com/album/paper-blown-between-the-spaces-in-my-ribs
</LINK_TEXT>
Here's a different record that has a version that's not 35 minutes
Here's a few clips of the bass trumpet stuff:
It's a fun rabbit hole that can really function well as a real instrument. Takes a lot of time, but is a good time
- mbarbier
- Posts: 367
- Joined: May 17, 2018
Oh oh sorry for the double post- forgot the label hosting for the second record doesn't have much available to preview. Here's the whole record, euphonium stuff is first and fourth track, I think.
[url]https://on.soundcloud.com/yxfGQvbt7tnGVcp27
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
And there's also P.D.Q. Bach's <B>tromboon</B> - a musical instrument made up of the reed and bocal of a bassoon, attached to the body of a trombone in place of the trombone's mouthpiece. It combines the sound of double reeds and the slide for a distinctive and unusual instrument. The name of the instrument is a portmanteau of "trombone" and "bassoon". The sound quality of the instrument is best described as comical and loud.
The tromboon was developed by Peter Schickele, a skilled bassoonist himself, and featured in some of his live concert and recorded performances. Schickele called it "a hybrid – that's the nicer word – constructed from the parts of a bassoon and a trombone; it has all the disadvantages of both". This instrument is called for in the scores of P. D. Q. Bach's oratorio The Seasonings, as well as the Serenude (for devious instruments), and Shepherd on the Rocks, With a Twist.
The tromboon was developed by Peter Schickele, a skilled bassoonist himself, and featured in some of his live concert and recorded performances. Schickele called it "a hybrid – that's the nicer word – constructed from the parts of a bassoon and a trombone; it has all the disadvantages of both". This instrument is called for in the scores of P. D. Q. Bach's oratorio The Seasonings, as well as the Serenude (for devious instruments), and Shepherd on the Rocks, With a Twist.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
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- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Well, obviously the Russian bassoon and ophicleide are such wonderful instruments (both essentially woodwind -- keyed -- instruments with "brass" mouthpieces) that it's natural to see what a kind of "inverse" to them (brass instrument with woodwind mouthpiece) would be like. You might actually try to get some funding for this research, and definitely it's the sort of thing that could get you a DMA or a Ph.D. if you work it correctly.
- EmeraldTheFox
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mar 04, 2025
Doing some more research on this bc why not. I want to know how I'd go about making an octave key mechanism since as of right now all I have is the spit valve and it acts as a fifth key essentially. Would I have to drill into the tubing before the slide and attach some sort of spring-loaded mechanism to open the vent, similar to how a saxophone octave key works? Would I have to do something completely different? I need answers!!
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="EmeraldTheFox"]Doing some more research on this bc why not. I want to know how I'd go about making an octave key mechanism since as of right now all I have is the spit valve and it acts as a fifth key essentially. Would I have to drill into the tubing before the slide and attach some sort of spring-loaded mechanism to open the vent, similar to how a saxophone octave key works? Would I have to do something completely different? I need answers!![/quote]
My answer is NO. Please! :horror:
My answer is NO. Please! :horror:
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
If you want to go full mad scientist, you need to do some experiments. Start with a hose-a-phone (a length of tubing with a mouthpiece on one end and a funnel at the other). To start with, your octave key can be just a hole that you cover with your finger. Try different hole locations (cover the ones that didn't work with tape) until you find the right spot.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
A higher fidelity hosaphone would be to use a full bell section in place of the funnel. Fewer opportunities to cut holes, but the proportions are closer to reality.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]A higher fidelity hosaphone would be to use a full bell section in place of the funnel. Fewer opportunities to cut holes, but the proportions are closer to reality.[/quote]
Where's the fun in that? I mean, you could build a 1/2" PVC u-section to take the place of the slide and hook it up to the bell, but then you'd miss out on a bunch of mad scientist trial and error stuff.
Where's the fun in that? I mean, you could build a 1/2" PVC u-section to take the place of the slide and hook it up to the bell, but then you'd miss out on a bunch of mad scientist trial and error stuff.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]If you want to go full mad scientist, you need to do some experiments.[/quote]
Also don't overlook the brilliant pioneering work of PDQ Bach. I believe that what's being attempted here -- if successful -- might also infringe on the patent for PDQ Bach's double reed slide music stand, and possibly the tromboon. You should probably devote some genuine research time to this since the ground you're mucking around in may well have been tilled previously by others.
Also don't overlook the brilliant pioneering work of PDQ Bach. I believe that what's being attempted here -- if successful -- might also infringe on the patent for PDQ Bach's double reed slide music stand, and possibly the tromboon. You should probably devote some genuine research time to this since the ground you're mucking around in may well have been tilled previously by others.
- mbarbier
- Posts: 367
- Joined: May 17, 2018
[quote="EmeraldTheFox"]Doing some more research on this bc why not. I want to know how I'd go about making an octave key mechanism since as of right now all I have is the spit valve and it acts as a fifth key essentially. Would I have to drill into the tubing before the slide and attach some sort of spring-loaded mechanism to open the vent, similar to how a saxophone octave key works? Would I have to do something completely different? I need answers!![/quote]
I think the only answers are via research and experiments. There are some great acoustics books, especially the Benade one, that give some underlying information.
On the trial and error side, if you get 5/8 clear plastic tubing from the hardware store, you can essentially replace the slide with the same length and do so some low cost/consequences prototyping to find the spots to drill. I've found that approach to be helpful in getting an idea of locations for modifications. Then just get a beater horn as the next step to modify.
You could also download the NESS physical modeling software that was produced by the University of Edinburgh. You can model brass instruments and modify them like crazy to hear how it would change the sound. There might even be a sax reed option. I forget, but it's amazing and incredibly useful software for this type of stuff.
I think the only answers are via research and experiments. There are some great acoustics books, especially the Benade one, that give some underlying information.
On the trial and error side, if you get 5/8 clear plastic tubing from the hardware store, you can essentially replace the slide with the same length and do so some low cost/consequences prototyping to find the spots to drill. I've found that approach to be helpful in getting an idea of locations for modifications. Then just get a beater horn as the next step to modify.
You could also download the NESS physical modeling software that was produced by the University of Edinburgh. You can model brass instruments and modify them like crazy to hear how it would change the sound. There might even be a sax reed option. I forget, but it's amazing and incredibly useful software for this type of stuff.
- Chronos91
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Jul 10, 2022
How is your voicing? With the shape of a trombone, I think the best octave/register key placement is pretty much always going to be in the slide (with how much cylindrical bore there is, it might get overtones like a clarinet though). That said, you could just voice to get higher partials out, and you'll need to if you want to play in a register where you're fully chromatic anyway. Especially if it overblows like a clarinet.
- Dennis
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
You don't need an octave key/hole.
The saxophone + mouthpiece + reed is perfectly capable of producing the harmonic series. Sigurd Rascher asked Buescher to produce a keyless alto saxophone. Buescher agreed, and produced two of them. (The process of making them was so disruptive to their factory schedule that Buescher's plant manager swore he would never do that again.) I've seen one of them played, and a skilled performer can do bugle calls on it.
To change partials, the player need only adjust the embouchure and air properly. A register key is necessary (or maybe helpful is the better term) on keyed winds but not on winds that adjust the instrument length by adding or subtracting tubing.
The saxophone + mouthpiece + reed is perfectly capable of producing the harmonic series. Sigurd Rascher asked Buescher to produce a keyless alto saxophone. Buescher agreed, and produced two of them. (The process of making them was so disruptive to their factory schedule that Buescher's plant manager swore he would never do that again.) I've seen one of them played, and a skilled performer can do bugle calls on it.
To change partials, the player need only adjust the embouchure and air properly. A register key is necessary (or maybe helpful is the better term) on keyed winds but not on winds that adjust the instrument length by adding or subtracting tubing.
- stanzabone
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
Also, a bassoon bocal fits pretty well in to a small shank mouthpiece receiver. Just sayin'...
(apologies to PDQ Bach)
(apologies to PDQ Bach)
- Dennis
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="stanzabone"]Also, a bassoon bocal fits pretty well in to a small shank mouthpiece receiver. Just sayin'...
(apologies to PDQ Bach)[/quote]
Yeah, it fits fine. When I was in college Schickele visited as a guest artist, and The Seasonings was one of the pieces programmed. I played a Bach 36 and so I was appointed to play the tromboon part, because the bocals don't fit at all well in large-shank receivers and everyone else was on an 88H or a 42. They gave me a bassoon bocal and a couple of reeds. I also got a "lesson" with P. Schickele.
It's playable, after a fashion, but it's not a very gratifying instrument to play. Intonation is iffy, not least because the chimera is pitched in something like a very flat A (or maybe it's a sharp Ab), and the bocal taper throws a lot of stuff off. The one thing is does do well is make loud noises.
(apologies to PDQ Bach)[/quote]
Yeah, it fits fine. When I was in college Schickele visited as a guest artist, and The Seasonings was one of the pieces programmed. I played a Bach 36 and so I was appointed to play the tromboon part, because the bocals don't fit at all well in large-shank receivers and everyone else was on an 88H or a 42. They gave me a bassoon bocal and a couple of reeds. I also got a "lesson" with P. Schickele.
It's playable, after a fashion, but it's not a very gratifying instrument to play. Intonation is iffy, not least because the chimera is pitched in something like a very flat A (or maybe it's a sharp Ab), and the bocal taper throws a lot of stuff off. The one thing is does do well is make loud noises.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Dennis"]...When I was in college Schickele visited as a guest artist, and The Seasonings was one of the pieces programmed. I played a Bach 36 and so I was appointed to play the tromboon part, because the bocals don't fit at all well in large-shank receivers and everyone else was on an 88H or a 42. They gave me a bassoon bocal and a couple of reeds.[/quote]
When was that? When our college did a PDQ Bach concert, Schickele Inc. sent out a bocal and a whole trombone in advance. I got it because I played bassoon.
Lucky you! We didn't see much of him. He arrived at the last instant and left at the first opportunity.
When was that? When our college did a PDQ Bach concert, Schickele Inc. sent out a bocal and a whole trombone in advance. I got it because I played bassoon.
I also got a "lesson" with P. Schickele.
Lucky you! We didn't see much of him. He arrived at the last instant and left at the first opportunity.
- Dennis
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE>I also got a "lesson" with P. Schickele.[/quote]
Lucky you! We didn't see much of him. He arrived at the last instant and left at the first opportunity.
</QUOTE>
Mid 70s. There are advantages to going to school out in the sticks.
The lesson mostly was tips about how to make the thing work, and to emphasize that the comic effect was a lot more important than other aspects.
I'll say this for him--he's the best slide whistle player I ever met.
Lucky you! We didn't see much of him. He arrived at the last instant and left at the first opportunity.
</QUOTE>
Mid 70s. There are advantages to going to school out in the sticks.
The lesson mostly was tips about how to make the thing work, and to emphasize that the comic effect was a lot more important than other aspects.
I'll say this for him--he's the best slide whistle player I ever met.