0.547 double valve bass?
- vetsurginc
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Jun 29, 2019
Does anyone still make a double valve bass with .547 or .547/.562 tubes?
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
Many German makers can certainly offer this, same as many of the other small boutique shops.
However I would assume that matching a .547 slide with a regular (American) bass valve and bell section might be a bit of a mismatch.
Easiest way to get there might actually be to get a modern Conn bass bell section (modern 62h or 112h) and a Conn .547 or .547/562 slide. As far as I know the slides are fully interchangeable. Might be the same for Bach 42 and 50 slides, but I am not much into Bachs...
Or are you actually looking for a large tenor bell section with two valves?
However I would assume that matching a .547 slide with a regular (American) bass valve and bell section might be a bit of a mismatch.
Easiest way to get there might actually be to get a modern Conn bass bell section (modern 62h or 112h) and a Conn .547 or .547/562 slide. As far as I know the slides are fully interchangeable. Might be the same for Bach 42 and 50 slides, but I am not much into Bachs...
Or are you actually looking for a large tenor bell section with two valves?
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I had a Wessex prototype that was modeled as a 42 w/2 valves. It played like a really good 42.
I've got an old King 1480, and Scott Sweeney has agreed to add a plugin valve.
The "smallest" basses - and you'll always get an argument about what that means - is something like an Olds P24G or a Duo Gravis. You can as mentioned earlier put a straight 547 slide on a 73h, but sl4747 is not as long as the stock 73h slide. A 547/562 slide on a 50b2 or 50b3 bell section is probably a better way to go short of custom work.
A Bach 45, King 1480, Holton 159 or a Conn 88hK might be the best candidates for a second valve on a big tenor-ish axe. But these aren't all just lying around eaay to find.
I've got an old King 1480, and Scott Sweeney has agreed to add a plugin valve.
The "smallest" basses - and you'll always get an argument about what that means - is something like an Olds P24G or a Duo Gravis. You can as mentioned earlier put a straight 547 slide on a 73h, but sl4747 is not as long as the stock 73h slide. A 547/562 slide on a 50b2 or 50b3 bell section is probably a better way to go short of custom work.
A Bach 45, King 1480, Holton 159 or a Conn 88hK might be the best candidates for a second valve on a big tenor-ish axe. But these aren't all just lying around eaay to find.
- vetsurginc
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Jun 29, 2019
Went through a pulmonary challenge earlier in the year related to heart condition. During recovery ended up playing my IB 4147 with Bousfield V3 mouthpiece on lots of third parts and playing bass/4th parts with it as well. I'm a long way back, playing my big bass in symphonic bands, but not the big band setting. The big tenor is a lot easier to fill, than my Getzen 1052, but doesn't have the fullness of sound when going to the pedals. Got me thinking about a smaller bass. I've played a 547/562 on an R9 with Hagmanns, which helps with air requirements but the horn was not happy with that combo.
While I've got lung capacity back, I have been intrigued by the efficiency of the V3 in the 4147.
While I've got lung capacity back, I have been intrigued by the efficiency of the V3 in the 4147.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
Another obvious option to get more efficient could be changing the mouthpiece and or leadpipe on your existing horn. (Don't know what you currently play)
I personally would probably not combine a smaller slide with a "full scale" bass valve section and bell. I can't imagine that this really works too well.
I personally would probably not combine a smaller slide with a "full scale" bass valve section and bell. I can't imagine that this really works too well.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
To clarify, you mean specifically a bass trombone, with a bass flare and taper and a .547" slide, and not just a double-valve .547" tenor, correct?
If so, nobody ever actually made one from the factory like that that I know of. The single valve .536-.546 King 1480/1485 (which is a bass) is probably the closest thing.
The Conn route MStarke mentioned is probably the easiest way, just slap an SL4747 on a modern 62H/112H bell section. I would also assume that since you can put a 50 slide on a 42 bell, the inverse is also true. I think I remember someone trying that and the results being less than ideal.
Modern German-style basses are sometimes .547/.562". The Laetzsch SL-570 Cieslik is one current example, and the Yamaha YBL-605 (no longer made) is another.
If so, nobody ever actually made one from the factory like that that I know of. The single valve .536-.546 King 1480/1485 (which is a bass) is probably the closest thing.
The Conn route MStarke mentioned is probably the easiest way, just slap an SL4747 on a modern 62H/112H bell section. I would also assume that since you can put a 50 slide on a 42 bell, the inverse is also true. I think I remember someone trying that and the results being less than ideal.
Modern German-style basses are sometimes .547/.562". The Laetzsch SL-570 Cieslik is one current example, and the Yamaha YBL-605 (no longer made) is another.
- octavposaune
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Jul 04, 2018
I built a modern 45 with a slot in valve from Kanstul as a light bass, and it is very useful for things like Mozart requiem, Early Romantic lit and some 20th century French and British lit. It is extremely air efficient compared to my 50s. Thein makes some smaller sized basses with .547-.562 slide. I dont know the model name or number but they were much smaller than the BVD model and the lower tuning slide tubes were tiny by American standards
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
I have a custom Bach 0.547/0.562” slide and a 50BG bell which I’m planning to try a bit at some point.
- stewbones43
- Posts: 333
- Joined: Oct 25, 2018
I have a "small bass" in my arsenal. It is a Besson Academy 409-0.555in bore and 9in bell. Only single trigger Bb/F but has a good E pull on the F section. I use it in early classical repertoire when the line up is alto, tenor, bass.
It came in various guises by Besson and Boosey and Hawkes and is under valued, so cheap-£500 max.
Cheers
Stewbones43
It came in various guises by Besson and Boosey and Hawkes and is under valued, so cheap-£500 max.
Cheers
Stewbones43
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Totally spaced that I have a Bach LT dual bore in .547/.562. I had forgotten all the way up until this thread that it also fits my bass... it actually plays pretty well, color me surprised. Real bass sound.
- flotrb
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Jun 20, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]
The "smallest" basses - and you'll always get an argument about what that means - is something like an Olds P24G or a Duo Gravis.[/quote]
In my opinion a 1975 King 1490S Bb/F/D model 7B "Duo Gravis" Bass Trombone (.562" 9½" bell) is certainly not what most people would consider a "small bass".
The "smallest" basses - and you'll always get an argument about what that means - is something like an Olds P24G or a Duo Gravis.[/quote]
In my opinion a 1975 King 1490S Bb/F/D model 7B "Duo Gravis" Bass Trombone (.562" 9½" bell) is certainly not what most people would consider a "small bass".
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="flotrb"]
In my opinion a 1975 King 1490S Bb/F/D model 7B "Duo Gravis" Bass Trombone (.562" 9½" bell) is certainly not what most people would consider a "small bass".[/quote]
I would.
In my opinion a 1975 King 1490S Bb/F/D model 7B "Duo Gravis" Bass Trombone (.562" 9½" bell) is certainly not what most people would consider a "small bass".[/quote]
I would.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="flotrb"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="270581" time="1742396200" user_id="104">
The "smallest" basses - and you'll always get an argument about what that means - is something like an Olds P24G or a Duo Gravis.[/quote]
In my opinion a 1975 King 1490S Bb/F/D model 7B "Duo Gravis" Bass Trombone (.562" 9½" bell) is certainly not what most people would consider a "small bass".
</QUOTE>
It's got a tighter bell throat than "modern" bass trombones, so it tends to get lumped into the "small bass" category, in spite of having a .562" slide. Ditto the Conn 71H, 72H, and 73H.
As for the original question, you might want to contact one someone like M&W to see if they've built something like that in the past.
The "smallest" basses - and you'll always get an argument about what that means - is something like an Olds P24G or a Duo Gravis.[/quote]
In my opinion a 1975 King 1490S Bb/F/D model 7B "Duo Gravis" Bass Trombone (.562" 9½" bell) is certainly not what most people would consider a "small bass".
</QUOTE>
It's got a tighter bell throat than "modern" bass trombones, so it tends to get lumped into the "small bass" category, in spite of having a .562" slide. Ditto the Conn 71H, 72H, and 73H.
As for the original question, you might want to contact one someone like M&W to see if they've built something like that in the past.
- Blabberbucket
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Oct 09, 2022
If all you're after is a bass bell section with a smaller slide, you can definitely put a .547 or .547/.562 slide on a bass bell. Within brand, you should be able to this with a Bach, Conn, Edwards, and Shìres. Likely Yamaha, too, but I am not certain about that.
- nateaff
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Jan 23, 2024
[quote="Blabberbucket"]Likely Yamaha, too, but I am not certain about that.[/quote]
I have a pre-Xeno 613H that will mate with Bach/Edwards 42/50 slides just fine, but the my 882OR slide doesn't. Older Yamaha basses at least are pretty Bach compatible (see BurgerBob's Yama-Bachs), I'm pretty sure the main tuning slide on my 613H is even interchangeable with Bach, I haven't tested it.
As far as I know once Yamaha introduced the Xeno lines they threw away any cross-brand compatibility, or even compatibility between their own basses and large bore tenors, which I think is kind of a shame.
I have a pre-Xeno 613H that will mate with Bach/Edwards 42/50 slides just fine, but the my 882OR slide doesn't. Older Yamaha basses at least are pretty Bach compatible (see BurgerBob's Yama-Bachs), I'm pretty sure the main tuning slide on my 613H is even interchangeable with Bach, I haven't tested it.
As far as I know once Yamaha introduced the Xeno lines they threw away any cross-brand compatibility, or even compatibility between their own basses and large bore tenors, which I think is kind of a shame.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="flotrb"]
In my opinion a 1975 King 1490S Bb/F/D model 7B "Duo Gravis" Bass Trombone (.562" 9½" bell) is certainly not what most people would consider a "small bass".[/quote]
I was thinking of the 6b due to the valve tubing and bell throat not being as large as more recent trends. The main bore and bell diameter are the same, but there's a reason this model gets recommended for commercial purposes so frequently.
I think there's room in the market for a real "small bass" or a fully decked out tweener for that commercial sound with more bite.
In my opinion a 1975 King 1490S Bb/F/D model 7B "Duo Gravis" Bass Trombone (.562" 9½" bell) is certainly not what most people would consider a "small bass".[/quote]
I was thinking of the 6b due to the valve tubing and bell throat not being as large as more recent trends. The main bore and bell diameter are the same, but there's a reason this model gets recommended for commercial purposes so frequently.
I think there's room in the market for a real "small bass" or a fully decked out tweener for that commercial sound with more bite.
- LeoInFL
- Posts: 252
- Joined: Apr 19, 2018
I like the small bass I was able to put together over time. First I picked up an "updated/late 70's" version of an Olds P-24G with the larger valves than the original version (a fairly complete bell section just missing the bell brace and slide tenon) and a 9" bell. The attachment tuning slides are swappable so it plays like a modern Bb/F/Gb/D independent bass. My tech was able to fit a Bach bell brace and slide tenon to this.
I started with an Edwards 0.547/0.562" slide and it worked okay. That combination felt great to play but after listening to our community symphony recordings it sounded too much like a tenor from the audience.
I was able to find here on the forum an older Wessex Supertenor slide - all nickel construction (like the slide originally offered on the Olds P-24G), 0.555" single bore, Bach-compatible tenon, removeable leadpipe. This a great combo and it's so fun to play.
I recently picked up a brand new Getzen 1052FDR for an insane price. If I end up preferring the Getzen over the Olds, I may decide to sell the P-24G. Stay tuned.
I started with an Edwards 0.547/0.562" slide and it worked okay. That combination felt great to play but after listening to our community symphony recordings it sounded too much like a tenor from the audience.
I was able to find here on the forum an older Wessex Supertenor slide - all nickel construction (like the slide originally offered on the Olds P-24G), 0.555" single bore, Bach-compatible tenon, removeable leadpipe. This a great combo and it's so fun to play.
I recently picked up a brand new Getzen 1052FDR for an insane price. If I end up preferring the Getzen over the Olds, I may decide to sell the P-24G. Stay tuned.
- vetsurginc
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Jun 29, 2019
Thanks to everyone for all the great ideas. I too love my Getzen 1052, so I'll delve deeper into the rabbit hole of mouthpieces (already using the smallest leadpipe).