Bach 42 w/ original Thayer valve?
- sdenlinger
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mar 05, 2024
I have an opportunity to test out a used Bach 42 with an original Thayer valve at what I feel is a great price. I don't have the serial number, but should I assume early 90s if it's an original Thayer? I have heard that these older Thayer valves can be leaky. It's offered by a dealer whose primary focus is trumpets, so I would trust his judgement about the general condition of the brass, etc., but what characteristics should I listen for to determine whether this valve is leaking? I'm currently playing a mid-70s 42 with what I'm assuming is the original Marsten valve in the traditional closed wrap configuration, but I don't have experience playing a horn with a Thayer (or an Infinity valve), so I don't have anything to compare it to.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Why do you feel the need to upgrade?
First generation stainless Thayers have a silver-colored casing, as opposed to the brass for a normal stock O.E. Thayer. Either one is probably going to be pretty roached out at this point.
First generation stainless Thayers have a silver-colored casing, as opposed to the brass for a normal stock O.E. Thayer. Either one is probably going to be pretty roached out at this point.
- sdenlinger
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mar 05, 2024
The 42 I'm playing now belongs to one of the ensembles I'm playing in, and I want to buy my own. This 42 does look like it's got a stainless casing, so I'm assuming 1st gen. I'm just trying to learn what I should be listening for if I test play it. The lacquer is pretty flaked off in a lot of places, hence the price, but If I buy it I'm going to strip it all off and go with raw brass.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Those axials can be great, but if they are leaky they are quite unfun to play. I actually have one mounted to a 42 myself and it's being worked on because it was JUST a bit too leaky to really use all the time.
- CheeseTray
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Apr 21, 2018
Though Aiden is correct, its worth mentioning that they're not leaky simply because they're old. Regular maintenence, amount of use, and other factors influence how well and long they hold up. I have one of the ones with the "half core" (I don't know which generation that is) which is actually fine despite their reputation for being the most unreliable of all the Bach Thayers.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="CheeseTray"]Though Aiden is correct, its worth mentioning that they're not leaky simply because they're old.[/quote]
Yes, and because the stainless ones had a design flaw that made many of them not seal from the get-go! There's a reason there's more generations.
Yes, and because the stainless ones had a design flaw that made many of them not seal from the get-go! There's a reason there's more generations.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="CheeseTray"]Though Aiden is correct, its worth mentioning that they're not leaky simply because they're old. Regular maintenence, amount of use, and other factors influence how well and long they hold up. I have one of the ones with the "half core" (I don't know which generation that is) which is actually fine despite their reputation for being the most unreliable of all the Bach Thayers.[/quote]
I don't think they have a "reputation" at all. Very reliable. You can have problems if the instrument was assembled poorly, or if some idiot tech puts the aluminum core in acid, and you can't go 15 years without ever taking the valve out and cleaning it like you can with a traditional rotor, , but that's not the fault of the valve. And leaky ones can be repaired.
I don't think they have a "reputation" at all. Very reliable. You can have problems if the instrument was assembled poorly, or if some idiot tech puts the aluminum core in acid, and you can't go 15 years without ever taking the valve out and cleaning it like you can with a traditional rotor, , but that's not the fault of the valve. And leaky ones can be repaired.
- sdenlinger
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mar 05, 2024
The aspect of this I'm most curious about is what I will experience when I play it if the valve is leaky? I know the change in timbre of my current closed wrap 42 between trigger and open notes, so I have that to compare. Will trigger notes sound "breathy" with a leaky valve? Will I hear a hiss, or "stuffiness" like I might hear with closed wrap trigger notes? Will there be a drop off in volume between open and trigger notes? Will the trigger notes go out of tune? Or is it just "I'll know it when I hear it?"
- CheeseTray
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Apr 21, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]
I don't think they have a "reputation" at all. Very reliable. You can have problems if the instrument was assembled poorly, or if some idiot tech puts the aluminum core in acid, and you can't go 15 years without ever taking the valve out and cleaning it like you can with a traditional rotor, , but that's not the fault of the valve. And leaky ones can be repaired.[/quote]
Brad,
When that generation of valves was the current one, I had a number of colleagues that were dissatisfied with how they performed and held up. Maybe that doesn't constitute a "reputation" but, anecdotally, I certainly new a fair number of people that steered clear of them. Of course, I can't speak to how well any of them took care of the valve. I posted what I did to discourage the notion that all Bach Thayers are leaky; I've had (and still have) a couple and have never had an issue - plus, I don't count myself as a particularly conscientious oiler/cleaner. I also have an Edwards Thayer that has been my daily for 35+ years and still performs great.
Cheers!
I don't think they have a "reputation" at all. Very reliable. You can have problems if the instrument was assembled poorly, or if some idiot tech puts the aluminum core in acid, and you can't go 15 years without ever taking the valve out and cleaning it like you can with a traditional rotor, , but that's not the fault of the valve. And leaky ones can be repaired.[/quote]
Brad,
When that generation of valves was the current one, I had a number of colleagues that were dissatisfied with how they performed and held up. Maybe that doesn't constitute a "reputation" but, anecdotally, I certainly new a fair number of people that steered clear of them. Of course, I can't speak to how well any of them took care of the valve. I posted what I did to discourage the notion that all Bach Thayers are leaky; I've had (and still have) a couple and have never had an issue - plus, I don't count myself as a particularly conscientious oiler/cleaner. I also have an Edwards Thayer that has been my daily for 35+ years and still performs great.
Cheers!
- CheeseTray
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Apr 21, 2018
[quote="sdenlinger"]The aspect of this I'm most curious about is what I will experience when I play it if the valve is leaky? I know the change in timbre of my current closed wrap 42 between trigger and open notes, so I have that to compare. Will trigger notes sound "breathy" with a leaky valve? Will I hear a hiss, or "stuffiness" like I might hear with closed wrap trigger notes? Will there be a drop off in volume between open and trigger notes? Will the trigger notes go out of tune? Or is it just "I'll know it when I hear it?"[/quote]
In my experience, leaky often feels like instability in the valve note's centering... it's sort of like the lack of a solid, stable "slotting." The pitches may feel like they want to drift. If the valve leaks badly enough, you can hear some fuzz too.
In my experience, leaky often feels like instability in the valve note's centering... it's sort of like the lack of a solid, stable "slotting." The pitches may feel like they want to drift. If the valve leaks badly enough, you can hear some fuzz too.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="CheeseTray"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="272479" time="1744053463" user_id="4102">
I don't think they have a "reputation" at all. Very reliable. You can have problems if the instrument was assembled poorly, or if some idiot tech puts the aluminum core in acid, and you can't go 15 years without ever taking the valve out and cleaning it like you can with a traditional rotor, , but that's not the fault of the valve. And leaky ones can be repaired.[/quote]
Brad,
When that generation of valves was the current one, I had a number of colleagues that were dissatisfied with how they performed and held up. Maybe that doesn't constitute a "reputation" but, anecdotally, I certainly new a fair number of people that steered clear of them. Of course, I can't speak to how well any of them took care of the valve. I posted what I did to discourage the notion that all Bach Thayers are leaky; I've had (and still have) a couple and have never had an issue - plus, I don't count myself as a particularly conscientious oiler/cleaner. I also have an Edwards Thayer that has been my daily for 35+ years and still performs great.
Cheers!
</QUOTE>
The Thayer valves Bach used were good, but it's my understanding that the installation was often poorly done.
I have the anodized aluminum cut away Thayers on my tenor and on my bass, and I don't have any problems with them. I did the installation myself.
I don't think they have a "reputation" at all. Very reliable. You can have problems if the instrument was assembled poorly, or if some idiot tech puts the aluminum core in acid, and you can't go 15 years without ever taking the valve out and cleaning it like you can with a traditional rotor, , but that's not the fault of the valve. And leaky ones can be repaired.[/quote]
Brad,
When that generation of valves was the current one, I had a number of colleagues that were dissatisfied with how they performed and held up. Maybe that doesn't constitute a "reputation" but, anecdotally, I certainly new a fair number of people that steered clear of them. Of course, I can't speak to how well any of them took care of the valve. I posted what I did to discourage the notion that all Bach Thayers are leaky; I've had (and still have) a couple and have never had an issue - plus, I don't count myself as a particularly conscientious oiler/cleaner. I also have an Edwards Thayer that has been my daily for 35+ years and still performs great.
Cheers!
</QUOTE>
The Thayer valves Bach used were good, but it's my understanding that the installation was often poorly done.
I have the anodized aluminum cut away Thayers on my tenor and on my bass, and I don't have any problems with them. I did the installation myself.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The original Thayer valves were sold to Techs for installation into Bach 42 or 42B horns. Around her it was Bob Osmun who did most of the conversions. I think it was around $600 for a kit of valve and tubing. Later Bach cut a deal with Ed Thayer's former partner and competitor to supply Thayer valves. I don't remember the names on the different valves, but the original Thayer valves had better reputations.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
The valves actually made by Ed Thayer were marked "Orla Ed Thayer". The ones made by the former partner were marked "OE Thayer". I too was told that the Orla Ed Thayer valves were better quality, but in my experience, the OE Thayer ones were better. I had an Orla Ed Thayer valve where the ports didn't line up quite right radially.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="brassmedic"]The Thayer valves Bach used were good, but it's my understanding that the installation was often poorly done.
I have the anodized aluminum cut away Thayers on my tenor and on my bass, and I don't have any problems with them. I did the installation myself.[/quote] This would be correct, at least with my early Bach 42T. They did not adjust the valve casing for end play, so it sealed terribly until I had Osmun fix it. They also used some type of teflon coating or something on the earliest aluminum cores, which was not really as durable as they had hoped. Another issue was that they simply used the parts that came with the kit, so even if assembled "perfectly", things would be out of alignment. The S-bend gooseneck was another thing that could have been done better.
I have the anodized aluminum cut away Thayers on my tenor and on my bass, and I don't have any problems with them. I did the installation myself.[/quote] This would be correct, at least with my early Bach 42T. They did not adjust the valve casing for end play, so it sealed terribly until I had Osmun fix it. They also used some type of teflon coating or something on the earliest aluminum cores, which was not really as durable as they had hoped. Another issue was that they simply used the parts that came with the kit, so even if assembled "perfectly", things would be out of alignment. The S-bend gooseneck was another thing that could have been done better.
- sdenlinger
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mar 05, 2024
Here's the valve on the instrument in question.
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qkYIf3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qkYIf3k_7XFpxyxjzqM22TEmd-G__Yof/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>
- MrKirk
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Mar 02, 2025
I'll say this thayers when aligned properly and dont leak play beautifully. However if you are not used to thayer valves, they do tend to have a higher latency. Which to me made the instrument feel less nimble or more challenging in very technical situations. Just something to think about if your not used to or have not played on one before. I had a great playing A47i, but just could not get over the valve throw length and latency.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="MrKirk"]I'll say this thayers when aligned properly and dont leak play beautifully. However if you are not used to thayer valves, they do tend to have a higher latency. Which to me made the instrument feel less nimble or more challenging in very technical situations. Just something to think about if your not used to or have not played on one before. I had a great playing A47i, but just could not get over the valve throw length and latency.[/quote]
Totally agree. If you are a player who focuses on valve pyrotechnics rather than slide technique, Thayers are not for you.
Totally agree. If you are a player who focuses on valve pyrotechnics rather than slide technique, Thayers are not for you.
- MrKirk
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Mar 02, 2025
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="MrKirk" post_id="272670" time="1744256569" user_id="19216">
I'll say this thayers when aligned properly and dont leak play beautifully. However if you are not used to thayer valves, they do tend to have a higher latency. Which to me made the instrument feel less nimble or more challenging in very technical situations. Just something to think about if your not used to or have not played on one before. I had a great playing A47i, but just could not get over the valve throw length and latency.[/quote]
Totally agree. If you are a player who focuses on valve pyrotechnics rather than slide technique, Thayers are not for you.
</QUOTE>
Slide technique means nothing when the valve has an inherent slow response time. Much the same way internet latency affects ping or gaming. Yes you can still play on a thayer/infinity valve, and yes you can adjust slide movement but in the end 1 second or 1/2 an inch more of movement creates more challenges in technical situations which if your not used to, or simply dont like can be problematic.
I'll say this thayers when aligned properly and dont leak play beautifully. However if you are not used to thayer valves, they do tend to have a higher latency. Which to me made the instrument feel less nimble or more challenging in very technical situations. Just something to think about if your not used to or have not played on one before. I had a great playing A47i, but just could not get over the valve throw length and latency.[/quote]
Totally agree. If you are a player who focuses on valve pyrotechnics rather than slide technique, Thayers are not for you.
</QUOTE>
Slide technique means nothing when the valve has an inherent slow response time. Much the same way internet latency affects ping or gaming. Yes you can still play on a thayer/infinity valve, and yes you can adjust slide movement but in the end 1 second or 1/2 an inch more of movement creates more challenges in technical situations which if your not used to, or simply dont like can be problematic.
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="MrKirk" post_id="272670" time="1744256569" user_id="19216">
I'll say this thayers when aligned properly and dont leak play beautifully. However if you are not used to thayer valves, they do tend to have a higher latency. Which to me made the instrument feel less nimble or more challenging in very technical situations. Just something to think about if your not used to or have not played on one before. I had a great playing A47i, but just could not get over the valve throw length and latency.[/quote]
Totally agree. If you are a player who focuses on valve pyrotechnics rather than slide technique, Thayers are not for you.
</QUOTE>
Valve pyrotechnics.... Thankfully no one's asked me to install that on a horn yet!
In all seriousness c'mon, really? The point MrKirk made is entirely valid. Some players just hate the attributes of a Thayer. It is what it is.
I'll say this thayers when aligned properly and dont leak play beautifully. However if you are not used to thayer valves, they do tend to have a higher latency. Which to me made the instrument feel less nimble or more challenging in very technical situations. Just something to think about if your not used to or have not played on one before. I had a great playing A47i, but just could not get over the valve throw length and latency.[/quote]
Totally agree. If you are a player who focuses on valve pyrotechnics rather than slide technique, Thayers are not for you.
</QUOTE>
Valve pyrotechnics.... Thankfully no one's asked me to install that on a horn yet!
In all seriousness c'mon, really? The point MrKirk made is entirely valid. Some players just hate the attributes of a Thayer. It is what it is.
- sdenlinger
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mar 05, 2024
I ended up buying this horn this week, and it sounds incredible. The valve is in great shape, but cosmetically it needs some attention. Given the sound I get from it, however, I can live with that. The serial number is 1014xx, which seems to put it between 1990-94 according to Bachloyalist.com. It came with a pretty beat up Marcus Bonna case which was very worn, so I didn't even take it home from the shop, but I did notice that there was an accessory pocket attached to it with an "Osmun" tag. So here's my question. Is it possible that the valve on this horn was a Thayer valve retrofit done by Osmun Brass? I know that seeing a case tag labeled "Osmun" is slim evidence. I also noticed some kind of engraving or stamp on the body of the valve which looks like: "£642". Does anyone recognize that? Were these O.E. Thayer valves given serial numbers?
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SzZqAW ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SzZqAWhBEEHiir3W6Nv56p2zi1PD4gRw/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>
Here is an image of the valve faceplate:
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qkYIf3 ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qkYIf3k_7XFpxyxjzqM22TEmd-G__Yof/view?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>
Here is an image of the valve faceplate:
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
It was a retrofit by someone. And yes, all the stainless valves have serials. I don't have mine here but we could compare.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Bob Osmun (located in metro Boston) did a lot of Thayer conversions, almost exclusively using valves from Ed Thayer. People would bring in 42B's or 42's for this conversion. 1990s was a prime time for this to happen. Your valve could even have been installed by Steve Shires, although I think everybody did the conversions.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I don't think Bach ever offered this valve from the factory. I had a set of these put on a Bach bass trombone at Osmun in 1991, and I think you're almost certainly correct to surmise that this was a conversion done there - in which case it was done well.
The stainless steel cores of these valves are certainly more durable than the aluminum cores that came later (and were the first ones used at the Bach factory I think), but because there is so much bearing surface, Thayer valves in general are prone to wear that makes them leaky, and you won't necessarily know right away.
A leaky valve affects the entire range, not just the valve register. How do you know? You might find there are certain notes that are unstable. You might find that it's hard to make a clear articulation in some registers - 2nd partial was a big issue for me when I wore out one set of valves I had. It sneaks up on you though, and might only become apparent over time.
I would recommend you get the instrument gone over by an excellent professional tech, who can make sure the valve is aligned properly and make any adjustments to try to make it seal as well as possible. I don't know where you are located, but you can certainly ask here for recommendations.
The stainless steel cores of these valves are certainly more durable than the aluminum cores that came later (and were the first ones used at the Bach factory I think), but because there is so much bearing surface, Thayer valves in general are prone to wear that makes them leaky, and you won't necessarily know right away.
A leaky valve affects the entire range, not just the valve register. How do you know? You might find there are certain notes that are unstable. You might find that it's hard to make a clear articulation in some registers - 2nd partial was a big issue for me when I wore out one set of valves I had. It sneaks up on you though, and might only become apparent over time.
I would recommend you get the instrument gone over by an excellent professional tech, who can make sure the valve is aligned properly and make any adjustments to try to make it seal as well as possible. I don't know where you are located, but you can certainly ask here for recommendations.