Stop tapping your foot!
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
I find it incredibly annoying when I have to sit next to another musician who is pounding his/her foot on the floor on every beat. It's very distracting. Sometimes it shakes the whole riser. And it's not helping you at all. I observe no correlation whatsoever between having good time and tapping your foot. Oftentimes, the foot tappers have the worst time of all. It just isn't necessary. You can easily keep the beat in your brain, and if you have no innate sense of time, tapping your foot isn't going to fix that. So stop doing it. And if you are a teacher, stop teaching your students to do it.
- slidesix
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Jan 03, 2025
This is timely because I am trying to retrain myself to have a good sense of internal time (with eighth notes). I was wondering if tapping my foot would help? I have been using a metronome but I find myself having trouble hearing it and falling back (onto old habits??!?) or tapping my heel to keep time. Trying to internalize good, consistent time without rushing to get through a challenging section. I have wondered in the past if the ground shaking could be bothering to others? Sounds like for some this could be the case. Thanks for sharing!
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="brassmedic"]I find it incredibly annoying when I have to sit next to another musician who is pounding his/her foot on the floor on every beat. It's very distracting. Sometimes it shakes the whole riser. And it's not helping you at all. I observe no correlation whatsoever between having good time and tapping your foot. Oftentimes, the foot tappers have the worst time of all. It just isn't necessary. You can easily keep the beat in your brain, and if you have no innate sense of time, tapping your foot isn't going to fix that. So stop doing it. And if you are a teacher, stop teaching your students to do it.[/quote]
Pounding is one thing, tapping is another. Nothing wrong with tapping other than you don't like it.
Pounding is one thing, tapping is another. Nothing wrong with tapping other than you don't like it.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
I have one on my Android phone that's called Pro Metronome. It's pretty loud if you turn up the phone's volume all the way. I like the idea of metronome practice over foot tapping because the metronome is objective. I feel that foot tapping doesn’t really teach you to internalize the beat; it's just a crutch that you're stuck with the rest of your life - and not even a very effective one.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
In Jr. high we were told to just tap our toe inside our shoe.
However, I think foot-tapping or toe-tapping is a valid pedagogical tool. Rhythm in music originates with walking and dancing and marching. It's part of the concept, part of experiencing the beat in the most basic way and part of learning subdivision of the beat.
You want your students to "internalize the beat"? You won't know they have a beat if they are not doing some external physical motion. Foot tapping is sufficiently distant from the embouchure to not be a disruptive motion.
Kids who don't feel the beat are just playing one approximate note duration after another, probably what ever the kid next to them is playing. They can't play on their own.
When they get too old to still be foot tapping, you can teach them not to, just like you can teach teach them not to play every note at the same volume or not to articulate every note the same way.
Foot-tapping is baby steps, but baby steps is where you start.
However, I think foot-tapping or toe-tapping is a valid pedagogical tool. Rhythm in music originates with walking and dancing and marching. It's part of the concept, part of experiencing the beat in the most basic way and part of learning subdivision of the beat.
You want your students to "internalize the beat"? You won't know they have a beat if they are not doing some external physical motion. Foot tapping is sufficiently distant from the embouchure to not be a disruptive motion.
Kids who don't feel the beat are just playing one approximate note duration after another, probably what ever the kid next to them is playing. They can't play on their own.
When they get too old to still be foot tapping, you can teach them not to, just like you can teach teach them not to play every note at the same volume or not to articulate every note the same way.
Foot-tapping is baby steps, but baby steps is where you start.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I've seen too many players tap but still have bad time to think it helps anything.
- nateaff
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Jan 23, 2024
I have bad time when I tap. I have bad time when I don't tap. I'm starting to think maybe my feet aren't the problem.
Im not an aggressive tapper, but I do that the mortifying habit of silently mouthing my measures of rest for all of the audience to see what must look like an attempt to put a hex on the conductor.
Im not an aggressive tapper, but I do that the mortifying habit of silently mouthing my measures of rest for all of the audience to see what must look like an attempt to put a hex on the conductor.
- claf
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Oct 22, 2018
What is worse than someone stomping their foot while not in time?
Someone stomping their foot on the rhythm they are playing. And it's even worse when they are playing offbeats.
Someone stomping their foot on the rhythm they are playing. And it's even worse when they are playing offbeats.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The Caruso method used foot tapping, but part of the Caruso training was learning to tap a steady beat.
I was taught not to tap, but to stay with the guy waving the stick. Sometimes he may want to change the tempo while you are busy marching to a different drummer.
I was taught not to tap, but to stay with the guy waving the stick. Sometimes he may want to change the tempo while you are busy marching to a different drummer.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]I've seen too many players tap but still have bad time to think it helps anything.[/quote]
:good: 1
:good: 1
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]In Jr. high we were told to just tap our toe inside our shoe.[/quote]
That's unfortunate. Stop teaching foot tapping. PLEASE.
I disagree. Completely unnecessary. Your brain can keep time. Let's teach that instead of crude physical movements. If your brain can't keep time, I GUARANTEE your foot can't either.
That's unfortunate. Stop teaching foot tapping. PLEASE.
[Quote]
However, I think foot-tapping or toe-tapping is a valid pedagogical tool. Rhythm in music originates with walking and dancing and marching. It's part of the concept, part of experiencing the beat in the most basic way and part of learning subdivision of the beat.
I disagree. Completely unnecessary. Your brain can keep time. Let's teach that instead of crude physical movements. If your brain can't keep time, I GUARANTEE your foot can't either.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
Is anyone tapping their foot? No.
<YOUTUBE id="gRalF1-iWtI">https://youtu.be/gRalF1-iWtI?si=1tgkTTeg31uPLq5b</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="gRalF1-iWtI">https://youtu.be/gRalF1-iWtI?si=1tgkTTeg31uPLq5b</YOUTUBE>
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
Good drummers seem to manage to do various things with their feet that are not necessarily on the beat, so there's that.
I think being able to subdivide in your mind helps with developing a steady sense of time, easier to lock in a steady stream of 8th or 16th notes in your head than quarter notes, say.
I think being able to subdivide in your mind helps with developing a steady sense of time, easier to lock in a steady stream of 8th or 16th notes in your head than quarter notes, say.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
One of the breakthrough moments of my career was a lesson with Sam Burtis (RIP) about the Caruso method, in which he immediately diagnosed that my initial articulations were coming a tiny fraction of a beat behind my tapping foot. Adjusting the timing of my tongue motion over the next few weeks took my playing to another level and made it much more enjoyable.
Later on, while spending some time with Charlie Vernon, I noticed that he taps his foot while he's practicing almost all the time. And I realized that his method overall is much more about making sure whatever he is playing, in whatever register, is speaking EXACTLY when he wants it to than it is about playing everything 2 octaves up and 3 octaves down.
I maintain that foot tapping is an incredibly useful practice tool.
With that caveat, I'm totally on board with Brad. The ability to lead when it's time to lead and get out of the way when it's time to follow is essential to any professional musician. As a bass trombone player it's pretty rare that I'm the one leading, and I know I am much better at playing in coordination with a principal trombone or trumpet player when I'm not making any unnecessary motion.
Later on, while spending some time with Charlie Vernon, I noticed that he taps his foot while he's practicing almost all the time. And I realized that his method overall is much more about making sure whatever he is playing, in whatever register, is speaking EXACTLY when he wants it to than it is about playing everything 2 octaves up and 3 octaves down.
I maintain that foot tapping is an incredibly useful practice tool.
With that caveat, I'm totally on board with Brad. The ability to lead when it's time to lead and get out of the way when it's time to follow is essential to any professional musician. As a bass trombone player it's pretty rare that I'm the one leading, and I know I am much better at playing in coordination with a principal trombone or trumpet player when I'm not making any unnecessary motion.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
You look around yourself today and are seeing the occasional adult who taps his foot too much.
You aren't seeing the would-have-been players who dropped out because they never got on the ladder of fundamentals like time and the beat.
I suspect most of the non-foot-tappers you see around you got started with foot-tapping, learned the lessons it embodied, then dropped it when it was no longer necessary.
The OP's situation, an adult who taps his foot too much, is more about the need to have cultivated a constructive relationship with your fellow players such that you can guide them out of this thing they don't need anymore, than it is about needing to ban this thing that was useful for everyone else.
You aren't seeing the would-have-been players who dropped out because they never got on the ladder of fundamentals like time and the beat.
I suspect most of the non-foot-tappers you see around you got started with foot-tapping, learned the lessons it embodied, then dropped it when it was no longer necessary.
The OP's situation, an adult who taps his foot too much, is more about the need to have cultivated a constructive relationship with your fellow players such that you can guide them out of this thing they don't need anymore, than it is about needing to ban this thing that was useful for everyone else.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I like to look around at all the foot tappers in an ensemble and observe how many different beats there are. I know one guy who taps aggressively, yet his foot timing has very little relationship to what he's playing. He plays in time, but taps out of time.
There are two times I'll tap my foot. First, when I'm trying like hell to keep the beat when cacophony is happening around me or when I'm concentrating to play a three against two or other odd beat. Second, when the groove is just so infectious that I have to make some movement. But the vast majority of the time I purposefully don't tap my foot. I think it looks horrendous from the audience, especially because of what I said in my very first sentence.
There are two times I'll tap my foot. First, when I'm trying like hell to keep the beat when cacophony is happening around me or when I'm concentrating to play a three against two or other odd beat. Second, when the groove is just so infectious that I have to make some movement. But the vast majority of the time I purposefully don't tap my foot. I think it looks horrendous from the audience, especially because of what I said in my very first sentence.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="slidesix"]This is timely because I am trying to retrain myself to have a good sense of internal time (with eighth notes). I was wondering if tapping my foot would help? I have been using a metronome but I find myself having trouble hearing it and falling back (onto old habits??!?) or tapping my heel to keep time. Trying to internalize good, consistent time without rushing to get through a challenging section.[/quote]
Only consistent practice with an external, objective source of time can make your internal, subjective sense of time conform to reality.
IMO, most players (self included) don't practice with metronomes enough, and as a result don't realize when they are pulling/pushing time because, inside their heads, it seems spot-on. I had better time in the past when I did my entire warm-up and routine with a metronome every day. Several years of not being consistent about doing that has cost me, so I've gone back to it.
(shout out to the decades-old DB-66 Dr. Beat that was getting dusty on my shelf - downbeats that pierce my brain like an ice pick)
Only consistent practice with an external, objective source of time can make your internal, subjective sense of time conform to reality.
IMO, most players (self included) don't practice with metronomes enough, and as a result don't realize when they are pulling/pushing time because, inside their heads, it seems spot-on. I had better time in the past when I did my entire warm-up and routine with a metronome every day. Several years of not being consistent about doing that has cost me, so I've gone back to it.
(shout out to the decades-old DB-66 Dr. Beat that was getting dusty on my shelf - downbeats that pierce my brain like an ice pick)
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Until I saw your foot
I thought this music was in four,
Until I saw your foot.
But now I think it must be three,
Or maybe five, I can't quite see.
Or six? Or maybe not.
I thought this piece was rather slow,
Until I saw your foot.
But now I think it's double speed -
Sometimes it's very fast indeed.
And other times it's not.
I thought conductors gave the beat,
Until I saw your foot.
But now I think it rather neat,
To look at all the tapping feet,
And choose the speed that I prefer,
And play along with him - or her.
I find it helps a lot.
I thought my timing was all wrong,
Until I saw your foot.
Conductors beat both east and west,
But we don't play with all the rest:
We've found a tempo of our own,
And bar by bar, our love has grown.
O I was feeling so alone,
Until I saw your foot.
© Heather Wastie
I thought this music was in four,
Until I saw your foot.
But now I think it must be three,
Or maybe five, I can't quite see.
Or six? Or maybe not.
I thought this piece was rather slow,
Until I saw your foot.
But now I think it's double speed -
Sometimes it's very fast indeed.
And other times it's not.
I thought conductors gave the beat,
Until I saw your foot.
But now I think it rather neat,
To look at all the tapping feet,
And choose the speed that I prefer,
And play along with him - or her.
I find it helps a lot.
I thought my timing was all wrong,
Until I saw your foot.
Conductors beat both east and west,
But we don't play with all the rest:
We've found a tempo of our own,
And bar by bar, our love has grown.
O I was feeling so alone,
Until I saw your foot.
© Heather Wastie
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I used to tap my foot. I thought I did so quietly. Many years ago, during a rehearsal break, I was quietly practicing a passage and keeping time with my foot. John Richards (RIP), former tubist with the Oregon Symphony, walked up to me and gently placed his foot on mine. He put his finger across his lips and said very quietly, “Sssh!” Then he pointed to his foot and said, “No one can hear your toe inside your shoe.”
I don’t always tap my toe, but when I do, it’s quietly.
I don’t always tap my toe, but when I do, it’s quietly.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
Foot-tapping doesn't "keep" the beat, it's externalizing your personal subjective sense of time. It's clearer to do that by moving your instrument.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
I'm reminded of two teachers I had in college as a music education major.
One, I'll call him Dr. C, insisted that one must never let beginners tap their foot. "Terrible habit! Utterly unnecessary!" The other, I'll call Mr. J, explained why it is useful for beginners to tap their foot and advocated for it.
Dr. C, our orchestra conductor, had a doctoral degree in conducting. Mr. J, our jazz band director, had a masters in instrumental pedagogy.
Dr. C had never had to conduct anything less able than a regional high school honors orchestra. Mr. J had a successful career of teaching public school band from beginner through high school prior to coming to our college.
Who do we suppose knew more of what he spoke?
One, I'll call him Dr. C, insisted that one must never let beginners tap their foot. "Terrible habit! Utterly unnecessary!" The other, I'll call Mr. J, explained why it is useful for beginners to tap their foot and advocated for it.
Dr. C, our orchestra conductor, had a doctoral degree in conducting. Mr. J, our jazz band director, had a masters in instrumental pedagogy.
Dr. C had never had to conduct anything less able than a regional high school honors orchestra. Mr. J had a successful career of teaching public school band from beginner through high school prior to coming to our college.
Who do we suppose knew more of what he spoke?
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Ted"]And if you play Mippy II, can you tap your foot then?[/quote]
Yes, and you can snap your fingers if you're playing West Side Story or The Pink Panther.
Yes, and you can snap your fingers if you're playing West Side Story or The Pink Panther.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="robcat2075"]I'm reminded of two teachers I had in college as a music education major.
One, I'll call him Dr. C, insisted that one must never let beginners tap their foot. "Terrible habit! Utterly unnecessary!" The other, I'll call Mr. J, explained why it is useful for beginners to tap their foot and advocated for it.
Dr. C, our orchestra conductor, had a doctoral degree in conducting. Mr. J, our jazz band director, had a masters in instrumental pedagogy.
Dr. C had never had to conduct anything less able than a regional high school honors orchestra. Mr. J had a successful career of teaching public school band from beginner through high school prior to coming to our college.
Who do we suppose knew more of what he spoke?[/quote]
Is this an appeal to authority?
One, I'll call him Dr. C, insisted that one must never let beginners tap their foot. "Terrible habit! Utterly unnecessary!" The other, I'll call Mr. J, explained why it is useful for beginners to tap their foot and advocated for it.
Dr. C, our orchestra conductor, had a doctoral degree in conducting. Mr. J, our jazz band director, had a masters in instrumental pedagogy.
Dr. C had never had to conduct anything less able than a regional high school honors orchestra. Mr. J had a successful career of teaching public school band from beginner through high school prior to coming to our college.
Who do we suppose knew more of what he spoke?[/quote]
Is this an appeal to authority?
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="LIBrassCo"]Nothing wrong with tapping other than you don't like it.[/quote]
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.
- mbarbier
- Posts: 367
- Joined: May 17, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="LIBrassCo" post_id="272666" time="1744254096" user_id="4931">
Nothing wrong with tapping other than you don't like it.[/quote]
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.
</QUOTE>
This just feels wildly subjective and it's a subject that's not cut and dry. There's plenty of folks working who have excellent rhythm who tap and plenty who don't. If you're relying on it, then yeah you probably have bad rhythm, but if, as someone else in the thread put it, it's simply and externalization of your internal beat, it can be very helpful. An example is a clarinetist we both work with. His rhythm is excellent and he pretty much always taps. But he does it very lightly in a way that doesn't affect and make anyone else feel the vibration. Sit next to him all the time in wildUp and you never feel it or get distracted by it, but can always rely on his rhythm to be perfect.
I feel like the actual issue is professionalism. Those folks that shake the whole platform on gigs need to get it together and stop making your job more difficult to do, which I feel like this is what this post is about. It's the same with folks who conduct during rests... there's nothing wrong with tapping if it's part of externalizing your rhythm or making sure your body is functioning in alignment...the real issue is unprofessional behavior that distracts from those around you.
Nothing wrong with tapping other than you don't like it.[/quote]
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.
</QUOTE>
This just feels wildly subjective and it's a subject that's not cut and dry. There's plenty of folks working who have excellent rhythm who tap and plenty who don't. If you're relying on it, then yeah you probably have bad rhythm, but if, as someone else in the thread put it, it's simply and externalization of your internal beat, it can be very helpful. An example is a clarinetist we both work with. His rhythm is excellent and he pretty much always taps. But he does it very lightly in a way that doesn't affect and make anyone else feel the vibration. Sit next to him all the time in wildUp and you never feel it or get distracted by it, but can always rely on his rhythm to be perfect.
I feel like the actual issue is professionalism. Those folks that shake the whole platform on gigs need to get it together and stop making your job more difficult to do, which I feel like this is what this post is about. It's the same with folks who conduct during rests... there's nothing wrong with tapping if it's part of externalizing your rhythm or making sure your body is functioning in alignment...the real issue is unprofessional behavior that distracts from those around you.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="mbarbier"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="272755" time="1744312699" user_id="4102">
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.[/quote]
This just feels wildly subjective and it's a subject that's not cut and dry. There's plenty of folks working who have excellent rhythm who tap and plenty who don't. If you're relying on it, then yeah you probably have bad rhythm, but if, as someone else in the thread put it, it's simply and externalization of your internal beat, it can be very helpful. An example is a clarinetist we both work with. His rhythm is excellent and he pretty much always taps. But he does it very lightly in a way that doesn't affect and make anyone else feel the vibration. Sit next to him all the time in wildUp and you never feel it or get distracted by it, but can always rely on his rhythm to be perfect.
</QUOTE>
If I had said "There are no foot-tappers who have good rhythm", then I would agree that I'm being wildly subjective. But I didn't say that. And I would bet that your colleague would have excellent rhythm even if he didn't tap his foot. So I'll agree to disagree. I appreciate your alternate perspective. I only hope that the foot-tappers could tap just their toe inside the shoe so that they are not creating a distraction for their colleagues.
And I totally agree about the conducting thing.
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.[/quote]
This just feels wildly subjective and it's a subject that's not cut and dry. There's plenty of folks working who have excellent rhythm who tap and plenty who don't. If you're relying on it, then yeah you probably have bad rhythm, but if, as someone else in the thread put it, it's simply and externalization of your internal beat, it can be very helpful. An example is a clarinetist we both work with. His rhythm is excellent and he pretty much always taps. But he does it very lightly in a way that doesn't affect and make anyone else feel the vibration. Sit next to him all the time in wildUp and you never feel it or get distracted by it, but can always rely on his rhythm to be perfect.
</QUOTE>
If I had said "There are no foot-tappers who have good rhythm", then I would agree that I'm being wildly subjective. But I didn't say that. And I would bet that your colleague would have excellent rhythm even if he didn't tap his foot. So I'll agree to disagree. I appreciate your alternate perspective. I only hope that the foot-tappers could tap just their toe inside the shoe so that they are not creating a distraction for their colleagues.
And I totally agree about the conducting thing.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Tapping or moving the foot is perfectly acceptable. Pounding the ground so that it makes a sound or shakes the riser you're on is unacceptable.
Black and white. No room for interpretation. <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>
Black and white. No room for interpretation. <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>
- slidesix
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Jan 03, 2025
[quote="TomInME"]Only consistent practice with an external, objective source of time can make your internal, subjective sense of time conform to reality.[/quote]
[quote="robcat2075"]You aren't seeing the would-have-been players who dropped out because they never got on the ladder of fundamentals like time and the beat.[/quote]
[quote="TomInME"]Foot-tapping doesn't "keep" the beat, it's externalizing your personal subjective sense of time.[/quote]
[quote="nateaff"]I have bad time when I tap. I have bad time when I don't tap. I'm starting to think maybe my feet aren't the problem.[/quote]
[quote="Doug Elliott"]I've seen too many players tap but still have bad time to think it helps anything.[/quote]
Thanks to everyone that shared their experiences, knowledge, and logic around trying to learn to keep good time. I feel like I am going to come away a better player now.
After 3 months of practice, last week I realized my sense of 46 bpm and 90 bpm were both off and either was steady. So I introduced a metronome last week to my practices for the entire sessions. Glad to keep that is a good approach. I'll keep it up.
Plus tonight I am starting lessons up so I want to get off on the right foot (pun not intended!)
Brad, I hope you are able to spread the word more! :biggrin:
[quote="robcat2075"]You aren't seeing the would-have-been players who dropped out because they never got on the ladder of fundamentals like time and the beat.[/quote]
[quote="TomInME"]Foot-tapping doesn't "keep" the beat, it's externalizing your personal subjective sense of time.[/quote]
[quote="nateaff"]I have bad time when I tap. I have bad time when I don't tap. I'm starting to think maybe my feet aren't the problem.[/quote]
[quote="Doug Elliott"]I've seen too many players tap but still have bad time to think it helps anything.[/quote]
Thanks to everyone that shared their experiences, knowledge, and logic around trying to learn to keep good time. I feel like I am going to come away a better player now.
After 3 months of practice, last week I realized my sense of 46 bpm and 90 bpm were both off and either was steady. So I introduced a metronome last week to my practices for the entire sessions. Glad to keep that is a good approach. I'll keep it up.
Plus tonight I am starting lessons up so I want to get off on the right foot (pun not intended!)
Brad, I hope you are able to spread the word more! :biggrin:
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="LIBrassCo" post_id="272666" time="1744254096" user_id="4931">
Nothing wrong with tapping other than you don't like it.[/quote]
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.
</QUOTE>
That's. Your. Opinion. Not. Fact.
Nothing wrong with tapping other than you don't like it.[/quote]
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.
</QUOTE>
That's. Your. Opinion. Not. Fact.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Foot tapping is like a lot of things, helpful when used for a specific purpose but not so good when used wrong or overdone.
In itself, it doesn't fix poor tempo. What it does is help students keep track of the beats (or subdivisions), particularly in rests and long notes. A large amount of my teaching these days is with elementary school students who are very prone to rush in general and often just blow right through longer notes or rests. Our percussion teacher often has the students make a motion outward and away from their instrument for rests to help them understand and keep track of a rest, for example. I also work quite a bit with adult students, including adult amateurs, and they very frequently have the same issue of short changing rests and long notes.
Another piece to the foot tapping puzzle is also how to feel the pulse/tap the foot. If the tempo is slow enough you really need to subdivide and maybe tap 8th notes in order to feel the pulse more effectively. When the tempo gets fast enough you need to switch from tapping quarter notes to half notes, etc.
Now if your foot tapping is loud and heavy, stop it. Of course you can tap more subtly so that no one will really notice unless you look really closely.
<YOUTUBE id="BhVdLd43bDI">[media]https://youtu.be/BhVdLd43bDI?si=PvZfOM4vhE2a2RZw</YOUTUBE>
In itself, it doesn't fix poor tempo. What it does is help students keep track of the beats (or subdivisions), particularly in rests and long notes. A large amount of my teaching these days is with elementary school students who are very prone to rush in general and often just blow right through longer notes or rests. Our percussion teacher often has the students make a motion outward and away from their instrument for rests to help them understand and keep track of a rest, for example. I also work quite a bit with adult students, including adult amateurs, and they very frequently have the same issue of short changing rests and long notes.
Another piece to the foot tapping puzzle is also how to feel the pulse/tap the foot. If the tempo is slow enough you really need to subdivide and maybe tap 8th notes in order to feel the pulse more effectively. When the tempo gets fast enough you need to switch from tapping quarter notes to half notes, etc.
Now if your foot tapping is loud and heavy, stop it. Of course you can tap more subtly so that no one will really notice unless you look really closely.
<YOUTUBE id="BhVdLd43bDI">
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
The OP used the term pounding. Pounding shouldn't happen-at all. If you're playing a loud club date gig pounding might not matter. Almost anywhere else no bueno.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I was in a big band rehearsal last night and found myself tapping while sight reading a fast, intricate chart. So of course I thought of this thread and the condemnation in it. So I stopped tapping.
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
I get to work with a variety of student ensembles quite as a guest or as a sub for a music teacher.
I encourage them all, no matter the musical genre, to get a 'kinesthetic response' happening to the music...feel it in their bodies... as they get set to play... when listening.
It kills me when some student says "Our teacher doesn't want us to move at all. We're supposed to sit absolutely still and only raise our instruments when told to do so."
And we wonder why some kids get turned off of music or bands?
Like, somehow it's acceptable to dance and move when listening to music but not when creating it?
Yes...professionals learn when to tap the foot or when not to depending on the ensemble, the musical situation, etc. etc. (as has been discussed in the thread)
But please let not stifle human instincts and kinesthetic reactions in people that are learning how to create and participate in music, no matter what their age is.
Case in point:
In an interview about 20 years ago, Quincy Jones was bemoaning the current state of affairs in music, and particularly in what was happening in hip hop, rap, and pop.
He said (I paraphrase): "The problem with todays so-called 'musicians' and 'producers' is that most of them have never played an instrument. They've never had to interact with other real humans beings in the creative process... they've never had the opportunity to build up a kinesthetic response to music or have never had to breathe in order to make a sound, or move their body to create music. Hell....they don't even dance! And they call themselves musicians? No wonder today's music is so lame."
Those are almost the exact words I heard on a radio interview. They've stayed with me as pretty relevant.
And, have you ever watched Hilary Hahn perform? She's like a ballet dancer. Her large floor length dresses are probably designed to hide her leg movement so she doesn't detract from the music and have people think she's dancing instead of playing violin!
She's really involved with her whole body. Most great performers are in some way or another.
I don't find Dave Taylor's trombone playing distracting at all. His body movement is 'him'...it's him performing the music....it's why he's still going strong at age 81 and still at the top of his game. He's a breathing human being totally involved in the music. All the more power to him. Should be an inspiration to us all to stay 'human'.
So...a little foot tapping? Why not? If you know you have good time and you're performing in a situation that allows for it, I say go ahead by all means. Otherwise, the music might suffer.
I encourage them all, no matter the musical genre, to get a 'kinesthetic response' happening to the music...feel it in their bodies... as they get set to play... when listening.
It kills me when some student says "Our teacher doesn't want us to move at all. We're supposed to sit absolutely still and only raise our instruments when told to do so."
And we wonder why some kids get turned off of music or bands?
Like, somehow it's acceptable to dance and move when listening to music but not when creating it?
Yes...professionals learn when to tap the foot or when not to depending on the ensemble, the musical situation, etc. etc. (as has been discussed in the thread)
But please let not stifle human instincts and kinesthetic reactions in people that are learning how to create and participate in music, no matter what their age is.
Case in point:
In an interview about 20 years ago, Quincy Jones was bemoaning the current state of affairs in music, and particularly in what was happening in hip hop, rap, and pop.
He said (I paraphrase): "The problem with todays so-called 'musicians' and 'producers' is that most of them have never played an instrument. They've never had to interact with other real humans beings in the creative process... they've never had the opportunity to build up a kinesthetic response to music or have never had to breathe in order to make a sound, or move their body to create music. Hell....they don't even dance! And they call themselves musicians? No wonder today's music is so lame."
Those are almost the exact words I heard on a radio interview. They've stayed with me as pretty relevant.
And, have you ever watched Hilary Hahn perform? She's like a ballet dancer. Her large floor length dresses are probably designed to hide her leg movement so she doesn't detract from the music and have people think she's dancing instead of playing violin!
She's really involved with her whole body. Most great performers are in some way or another.
I don't find Dave Taylor's trombone playing distracting at all. His body movement is 'him'...it's him performing the music....it's why he's still going strong at age 81 and still at the top of his game. He's a breathing human being totally involved in the music. All the more power to him. Should be an inspiration to us all to stay 'human'.
So...a little foot tapping? Why not? If you know you have good time and you're performing in a situation that allows for it, I say go ahead by all means. Otherwise, the music might suffer.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
<YOUTUBE id="zW5_slI59EA" t="104">[media]<LINK_TEXT text="https://youtu.be/zW5_slI59EA?si=fz91czA ... Ym&t=1m44s">https://youtu.be/zW5_slI59EA?si=fz91czAnqS93g-Ym&t=1m44s</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>
<EMOJI seq="1f914" tseq="1f914">🤔</EMOJI>
Seemed in time to me
<EMOJI seq="1f914" tseq="1f914">🤔</EMOJI>
Seemed in time to me
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Cmillar"]It kills me when some student says "Our teacher doesn't want us to move at all. We're supposed to sit absolutely still and only raise our instruments when told to do so."
...
But please let not stifle human instincts and kinesthetic reactions in people that are learning how to create and participate in music, no matter what their age is.
...
And, have you ever watched Hilary Hahn perform? She's like a ballet dancer. Her large floor length dresses are probably designed to hide her leg movement so she doesn't detract from the music and have people think she's dancing instead of playing violin!
She's really involved with her whole body. Most great performers are in some way or another.[/quote]
That's all great, but I don't think this is a one size fits all thing.
I'm one of those people who plays best by moving the least. Playing trombone, any movement can interfere with embouchure or slide movement (which I know might be different for different instruments). I do best when I devote 100% of my energy to the sound coming out of the bell, and avoid any movement that isn't necessary for that. I'm not a dancing player. But that may be simply because of the way I play and the type and difficulty of music that I play. I can't afford to move around.
Yet, sometimes (like last night) I still find myself unconsciously tapping my foot, which neither helps nor hurts my playing, it's just a (bad?) habit. And for the record, because foot tapping has been claimed to help with time, I have great time, and I still do it. I don't need to tap my foot. It just...happens. It's a mystery of the universe!
...
But please let not stifle human instincts and kinesthetic reactions in people that are learning how to create and participate in music, no matter what their age is.
...
And, have you ever watched Hilary Hahn perform? She's like a ballet dancer. Her large floor length dresses are probably designed to hide her leg movement so she doesn't detract from the music and have people think she's dancing instead of playing violin!
She's really involved with her whole body. Most great performers are in some way or another.[/quote]
That's all great, but I don't think this is a one size fits all thing.
I'm one of those people who plays best by moving the least. Playing trombone, any movement can interfere with embouchure or slide movement (which I know might be different for different instruments). I do best when I devote 100% of my energy to the sound coming out of the bell, and avoid any movement that isn't necessary for that. I'm not a dancing player. But that may be simply because of the way I play and the type and difficulty of music that I play. I can't afford to move around.
Yet, sometimes (like last night) I still find myself unconsciously tapping my foot, which neither helps nor hurts my playing, it's just a (bad?) habit. And for the record, because foot tapping has been claimed to help with time, I have great time, and I still do it. I don't need to tap my foot. It just...happens. It's a mystery of the universe!
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]That's all great, but I don't think this is a one size fits all thing.
I'm one of those people who plays best by moving the least. Playing trombone, any movement can interfere with embouchure or slide movement (which I know might be different for different instruments). I do best when I devote 100% of my energy to the sound coming out of the bell, and avoid any movement that isn't necessary for that. I'm not a dancing player. But that may be simply because of the way I play and the type and difficulty of music that I play. I can't afford to move around.
Yet, sometimes (like last night) I still find myself unconsciously tapping my foot, which neither helps nor hurts my playing, it's just a (bad?) habit. And for the record, because foot tapping has been claimed to help with time, I have great time, and I still do it. I don't need to tap my foot. It just...happens. It's a mystery of the universe![/quote]
Right...Hah!...I'm sure that the marching band experience I had in high school was great for my 'music-in-time' training, but I sure can't march and play at the same time to save my life now. That's my idea of torture. I don't know how some of those amazing dancing college band kids do it!. Or those dancing Japanese marching bands. Crazy!
I'm one of those people who plays best by moving the least. Playing trombone, any movement can interfere with embouchure or slide movement (which I know might be different for different instruments). I do best when I devote 100% of my energy to the sound coming out of the bell, and avoid any movement that isn't necessary for that. I'm not a dancing player. But that may be simply because of the way I play and the type and difficulty of music that I play. I can't afford to move around.
Yet, sometimes (like last night) I still find myself unconsciously tapping my foot, which neither helps nor hurts my playing, it's just a (bad?) habit. And for the record, because foot tapping has been claimed to help with time, I have great time, and I still do it. I don't need to tap my foot. It just...happens. It's a mystery of the universe![/quote]
Right...Hah!...I'm sure that the marching band experience I had in high school was great for my 'music-in-time' training, but I sure can't march and play at the same time to save my life now. That's my idea of torture. I don't know how some of those amazing dancing college band kids do it!. Or those dancing Japanese marching bands. Crazy!
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
Here's a place where you can pound your foot on the floor.
<ATTACHMENT filename="foot.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]foot.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
<ATTACHMENT filename="foot.jpg" index="0">
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Cmillar"]I get to work with a variety of student ensembles quite as a guest or as a sub for a music teacher.
I encourage them all, no matter the musical genre, to get a 'kinesthetic response' happening to the music...feel it in their bodies... as they get set to play... when listening.
It kills me when some student says "Our teacher doesn't want us to move at all. We're supposed to sit absolutely still and only raise our instruments when told to do so."
And we wonder why some kids get turned off of music or bands?
Like, somehow it's acceptable to dance and move when listening to music but not when creating it?
Yes...professionals learn when to tap the foot or when not to depending on the ensemble, the musical situation, etc. etc. (as has been discussed in the thread)
But please let not stifle human instincts and kinesthetic reactions in people that are learning how to create and participate in music, no matter what their age is.[/quote]
Not what I said at all. I said foot tapping as a method of keeping time doesn't work so it doesn't make sense to do it - as a method of keeping time.
You complain of teachers who tell kids they can't move. I complain of teachers who tell kids they MUST tap their foot in order to be able to play rhythmically.
But lots of great performers play very musically without dancing around. I don't think dancing around is necessary to make music.
I encourage them all, no matter the musical genre, to get a 'kinesthetic response' happening to the music...feel it in their bodies... as they get set to play... when listening.
It kills me when some student says "Our teacher doesn't want us to move at all. We're supposed to sit absolutely still and only raise our instruments when told to do so."
And we wonder why some kids get turned off of music or bands?
Like, somehow it's acceptable to dance and move when listening to music but not when creating it?
Yes...professionals learn when to tap the foot or when not to depending on the ensemble, the musical situation, etc. etc. (as has been discussed in the thread)
But please let not stifle human instincts and kinesthetic reactions in people that are learning how to create and participate in music, no matter what their age is.[/quote]
Not what I said at all. I said foot tapping as a method of keeping time doesn't work so it doesn't make sense to do it - as a method of keeping time.
You complain of teachers who tell kids they can't move. I complain of teachers who tell kids they MUST tap their foot in order to be able to play rhythmically.
Case in point:
In an interview about 20 years ago, Quincy Jones was bemoaning the current state of affairs in music, and particularly in what was happening in hip hop, rap, and pop.
He said (I paraphrase): "The problem with todays so-called 'musicians' and 'producers' is that most of them have never played an instrument. They've never had to interact with other real humans beings in the creative process... they've never had the opportunity to build up a kinesthetic response to music or have never had to breathe in order to make a sound, or move their body to create music. Hell....they don't even dance! And they call themselves musicians? No wonder today's music is so lame."
Those are almost the exact words I heard on a radio interview. They've stayed with me as pretty relevant.
And, have you ever watched Hilary Hahn perform? She's like a ballet dancer. Her large floor length dresses are probably designed to hide her leg movement so she doesn't detract from the music and have people think she's dancing instead of playing violin!
She's really involved with her whole body. Most great performers are in some way or another.
I don't find Dave Taylor's trombone playing distracting at all. His body movement is 'him'...it's him performing the music....it's why he's still going strong at age 81 and still at the top of his game. He's a breathing human being totally involved in the music. All the more power to him. Should be an inspiration to us all to stay 'human'.
So...a little foot tapping? Why not? If you know you have good time and you're performing in a situation that allows for it, I say go ahead by all means. Otherwise, the music might suffer.
But lots of great performers play very musically without dancing around. I don't think dancing around is necessary to make music.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I find I'll just sometimes move with the music, sometimes foot tapping, sometimes something else. Sometimes I see someone else tapping, and it's distracting because it's not on the beat. We took a class in music school called movement where we danced around to the prof playing the piano. I feel weird if I'm not moving somehow with the music.
Worse yet - I play with a college group sometimes as an adult mentor. So I have the bass drum right behind me about 1/4 beat behind. The euphonium player next to me anywhere from 1/2 beat to 3 beats behind, the horn player tapping his foot seemingly randomly, the snare drum 1/10th of a beat ahead and speeding up, and then the conductor. Is it training? Is it punishment? Is it a test?
One thing I learned, right or wrong, was that you never tap for classical music. But if you tap for other kinds of music, it's ok. Just don't distract anyone.
On a related topic, sometimes some "body english" can be useful in small ensembles where there is not a strong established pulse. For example, a tbone quartet that starts with a big whole note. Somebody has to establish the beat. Whether it's a slide motion, swaying your body or god forbid a toe tap.
Worse yet - I play with a college group sometimes as an adult mentor. So I have the bass drum right behind me about 1/4 beat behind. The euphonium player next to me anywhere from 1/2 beat to 3 beats behind, the horn player tapping his foot seemingly randomly, the snare drum 1/10th of a beat ahead and speeding up, and then the conductor. Is it training? Is it punishment? Is it a test?
One thing I learned, right or wrong, was that you never tap for classical music. But if you tap for other kinds of music, it's ok. Just don't distract anyone.
On a related topic, sometimes some "body english" can be useful in small ensembles where there is not a strong established pulse. For example, a tbone quartet that starts with a big whole note. Somebody has to establish the beat. Whether it's a slide motion, swaying your body or god forbid a toe tap.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="LIBrassCo"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="272755" time="1744312699" user_id="4102">
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.[/quote]
That's. Your. Opinion. Not. Fact.
</QUOTE>
It's my observation. Do you really think foot-tappers have better rhythm than non foot-tappers? I already posted a video of musicians with excellent rhythm who don't tap their feet. I could post a hundred more, but I would think you would get the idea. You don't need to tap your foot to have good rhythm. Stop teaching kids that they must do it.
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.[/quote]
That's. Your. Opinion. Not. Fact.
</QUOTE>
It's my observation. Do you really think foot-tappers have better rhythm than non foot-tappers? I already posted a video of musicians with excellent rhythm who don't tap their feet. I could post a hundred more, but I would think you would get the idea. You don't need to tap your foot to have good rhythm. Stop teaching kids that they must do it.
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="LIBrassCo" post_id="272800" time="1744357777" user_id="4931">
That's. Your. Opinion. Not. Fact.[/quote]
It's my observation. Do you really think foot-tappers have better rhythm than non foot-tappers? I already posted a video of musicians with excellent rhythm who don't tap their feet. I could post a hundred more, but I would think you would get the idea.
</QUOTE>
Dude that's essentially meaningless. There's countless scenarios where your observation is invalidated, but I have zero desire to go through all of them. Why can't it be left at for some people it's helpful and for others it isn't? Why does it need to be that it's meaningless period? All that matters is it helps them.
That's. Your. Opinion. Not. Fact.[/quote]
It's my observation. Do you really think foot-tappers have better rhythm than non foot-tappers? I already posted a video of musicians with excellent rhythm who don't tap their feet. I could post a hundred more, but I would think you would get the idea.
</QUOTE>
Dude that's essentially meaningless. There's countless scenarios where your observation is invalidated, but I have zero desire to go through all of them. Why can't it be left at for some people it's helpful and for others it isn't? Why does it need to be that it's meaningless period? All that matters is it helps them.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I think BrassMedic raises a good question. Whether foot tapping really helps people have better time sounds like something that is discernible. Clearly, if it does help, than those who foot tap should have discernibly better time, overall, than those who don't. Right? If it helps, we should see it.
I have no idea because I don't teach, and the foot tappers I play with are not particularly good with time. But if it's a real benefit -- if ANYTHING is a real benefit -- shouldn't it be qualitatively measurable, like any other binary thing?
I have no idea because I don't teach, and the foot tappers I play with are not particularly good with time. But if it's a real benefit -- if ANYTHING is a real benefit -- shouldn't it be qualitatively measurable, like any other binary thing?
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I think BrassMedic raises a good question. Whether foot tapping really helps people have better time sounds like something that is discernible. Clearly, if it does help, than those who foot tap should have discernibly better time, overall, than those who don't. Right? If it helps, we should see it.
I have no idea because I don't teach, and the foot tappers I play with are not particularly good with time. But if it's a real benefit -- if ANYTHING is a real benefit -- shouldn't it be qualitatively measurable, like any other binary thing?[/quote]
Y’all aren’t going to like that it is likely a conditional probability or that there is some other statistical interaction that is likely at play. Sure, you can test it. You may even find out that the terrible rhythm folks are even worse without tapping… I’m happy to help with the statistical analysis and test setup, but I see it as not likely to be conclusive. Binary data is not so easy in the subjective areas. First step will be to define what constitutes a tap and then what percentage of different populations tap.
My thought on this entire thread; what we really don’t like is bad time/rhythm, not the tapping or lack thereof. I won’t name names, but there are a handful of players I am sure would generally be listed by the group here as top 10 or 20 players in the world that are habitual tappers. You can find videos. Only complaint they ever get on that is from us sound guys noting when we hear it on the recording. For posterity, you can hear one (and a breathing tic that drives me nuts) during the end credits of a major motion picture. Still can’t believe the engineer didn’t edit it out.
Cheers,
Andy
I have no idea because I don't teach, and the foot tappers I play with are not particularly good with time. But if it's a real benefit -- if ANYTHING is a real benefit -- shouldn't it be qualitatively measurable, like any other binary thing?[/quote]
Y’all aren’t going to like that it is likely a conditional probability or that there is some other statistical interaction that is likely at play. Sure, you can test it. You may even find out that the terrible rhythm folks are even worse without tapping… I’m happy to help with the statistical analysis and test setup, but I see it as not likely to be conclusive. Binary data is not so easy in the subjective areas. First step will be to define what constitutes a tap and then what percentage of different populations tap.
My thought on this entire thread; what we really don’t like is bad time/rhythm, not the tapping or lack thereof. I won’t name names, but there are a handful of players I am sure would generally be listed by the group here as top 10 or 20 players in the world that are habitual tappers. You can find videos. Only complaint they ever get on that is from us sound guys noting when we hear it on the recording. For posterity, you can hear one (and a breathing tic that drives me nuts) during the end credits of a major motion picture. Still can’t believe the engineer didn’t edit it out.
Cheers,
Andy
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="elmsandr"]Y’all aren’t going to like that it is likely a conditional probability or that there is some other statistical interaction that is likely at play. Sure, you can test it. You may even find out that the terrible rhythm folks are even worse without tapping… I’m happy to help with the statistical analysis and test setup, but I see it as not likely to be conclusive. Binary data is not so easy in the subjective areas. First step will be to define what constitutes a tap and then what percentage of different populations tap.[/quote]
Sounds like you're saying there's no clear evidence that it's helpful. I would also say there's no evidence that it's harmful, to ourselves.
But there is clear evidence that it's harmful to other people: nearby players, and everyone who shares a recording with us.
That's enough for me to completely avoid it.
Sounds like you're saying there's no clear evidence that it's helpful. I would also say there's no evidence that it's harmful, to ourselves.
But there is clear evidence that it's harmful to other people: nearby players, and everyone who shares a recording with us.
That's enough for me to completely avoid it.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
This is up there with "touching the bell". <EMOJI seq="1f644" tseq="1f644">🙄</EMOJI>
I totally agree that audible, palpable foot stomping is bad. But moving the foot in time is as harmful as is touching the bell. Something teachers latch onto as detrimental, but not actually related to poor playing on their students part. Just something they can blame and "fix". But they probably don't get any better because of this "fix". People who play with bad time have bad time. People who play out of tune have bad ears.
I totally agree that audible, palpable foot stomping is bad. But moving the foot in time is as harmful as is touching the bell. Something teachers latch onto as detrimental, but not actually related to poor playing on their students part. Just something they can blame and "fix". But they probably don't get any better because of this "fix". People who play with bad time have bad time. People who play out of tune have bad ears.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
"Touching the bell" is a bad habit I learned when I was 8 years old, and sometimes I'll still find myself unconsciously doing it today.
My only real problems with foot tappers are:
1. In a symphony orchestra, from the audience's POV it's hella distracting and it looks unprofessional.
2. As a player, multiple people with slightly different foot taps all going on at once is crazy-making.
My only real problems with foot tappers are:
1. In a symphony orchestra, from the audience's POV it's hella distracting and it looks unprofessional.
2. As a player, multiple people with slightly different foot taps all going on at once is crazy-making.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]"Touching the bell" is a bad habit I learned when I was 8 years old, and sometimes I'll still find myself unconsciously doing it today.[/quote]
That's what I'm saying. In your case (and many other great players' cases!) it is not a bad habit. It's unrelated to your ability to play well and in tune.
These things seem like huge no-no's but they're actually not really related to bad playing.
That's what I'm saying. In your case (and many other great players' cases!) it is not a bad habit. It's unrelated to your ability to play well and in tune.
These things seem like huge no-no's but they're actually not really related to bad playing.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]"Touching the bell" is a bad habit I learned when I was 8 years old, and sometimes I'll still find myself unconsciously doing it today.
My only real problems with foot tappers are:
1. In a symphony orchestra, from the audience's POV it's hella distracting and it looks unprofessional.
2. As a player, multiple people with slightly different foot taps all going on at once is crazy-making.[/quote]
For case 1 above, I don’t think it is distracting. I’d argue that those bothered by it are more interested in being seen at a symphony concert than in seeing a live music performance.
I was taught that an orchestral trombonist should appear almost lifeless and bored…. I strongly disagree. I think if te music in enjoyable, that should be clear. If you don’t enjoy playing it, why should anybody enjoy listening? More connection between audience and performers is what makes live music worth it, IMHO.
As for 2. Absolutely. Again, what I hate there is the lack of alignment in the beat, that’s our root cause. Fix that and the annoyance of the motion goes away for me.
Cheers,
Andy
My only real problems with foot tappers are:
1. In a symphony orchestra, from the audience's POV it's hella distracting and it looks unprofessional.
2. As a player, multiple people with slightly different foot taps all going on at once is crazy-making.[/quote]
For case 1 above, I don’t think it is distracting. I’d argue that those bothered by it are more interested in being seen at a symphony concert than in seeing a live music performance.
I was taught that an orchestral trombonist should appear almost lifeless and bored…. I strongly disagree. I think if te music in enjoyable, that should be clear. If you don’t enjoy playing it, why should anybody enjoy listening? More connection between audience and performers is what makes live music worth it, IMHO.
As for 2. Absolutely. Again, what I hate there is the lack of alignment in the beat, that’s our root cause. Fix that and the annoyance of the motion goes away for me.
Cheers,
Andy
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Jörgen van Rijen taps his foot. A lot. The whole foot, not just the toe.
I saw him do it tonight, from the fourth row.
So there! :D
-
I saw him do it tonight, from the fourth row.
So there! :D
-
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="elmsandr"]
I was taught that an orchestral trombonist should appear almost lifeless and bored….[/quote]
Really? You were taught that you should look bored? I have never in my life EVER heard any teacher say that.
I was taught that an orchestral trombonist should appear almost lifeless and bored….[/quote]
Really? You were taught that you should look bored? I have never in my life EVER heard any teacher say that.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="LIBrassCo"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="272894" time="1744416383" user_id="4102">
It's my observation. Do you really think foot-tappers have better rhythm than non foot-tappers? I already posted a video of musicians with excellent rhythm who don't tap their feet. I could post a hundred more, but I would think you would get the idea.[/quote]
Dude that's essentially meaningless. There's countless scenarios where your observation is invalidated, but I have zero desire to go through all of them. Why can't it be left at for some people it's helpful and for others it isn't? Why does it need to be that it's meaningless period? All that matters is it helps them.
</QUOTE>
<ATTACHMENT filename="dude.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]dude.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
It's my observation. Do you really think foot-tappers have better rhythm than non foot-tappers? I already posted a video of musicians with excellent rhythm who don't tap their feet. I could post a hundred more, but I would think you would get the idea.[/quote]
Dude that's essentially meaningless. There's countless scenarios where your observation is invalidated, but I have zero desire to go through all of them. Why can't it be left at for some people it's helpful and for others it isn't? Why does it need to be that it's meaningless period? All that matters is it helps them.
</QUOTE>
<ATTACHMENT filename="dude.jpg" index="0">
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="brassmedic"]Really? You were taught that you should look bored? I have never in my life EVER heard any teacher say that.[/quote]
Now that we have easy access to concert videos with close-ups of the players, you can see the dead-eyed mask people adopt when counting rests. It's really starting to bother me.
Now that we have easy access to concert videos with close-ups of the players, you can see the dead-eyed mask people adopt when counting rests. It's really starting to bother me.
- Olofson
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Apr 15, 2023
<YOUTUBE id="_4DrbXqWZT8">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_4DrbXqWZT8</YOUTUBE>
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Stefan Schulz touches his bell. A lot.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
Admin: Is there a way, like in facebook to attach an emoji to a specific comment here? Not to an additional comment or copy/quote of the original comment, but rather to the original comment itself? Would save a lot of time and energy.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="musicofnote"]Admin: Is there a way, like in facebook to attach an emoji to a specific comment here? Not to an additional comment or copy/quote of the original comment, but rather to the original comment itself? Would save a lot of time and energy.[/quote]
Sorry. That would mean giving you the permission to edit posts other than your own, potentially allowing some serious mischief.
Sorry. That would mean giving you the permission to edit posts other than your own, potentially allowing some serious mischief.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
To refer to a recent listening binge of mine, relating to foot-tapping:
<YOUTUBE id="Ne5PNPVN9OI">[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne5PNPVN9OI</YOUTUBE>
Foot-tapping could be thought of as integration of very minimal dancing to tromboning. So: watching this performance, there is clearly dancing going on, and maybe this translates to literal foot tapping or not; with the given camera angles, it's impossible to tell.
But - I think it's pretty clear that for these musicians, any resulting dancing or foot-tapping is tied to the energy of joyous music making, rather than an external effort to try to feel time. Consider a learning sequence:
Start with physical motion to internalize an unfamiliar rhythm.
Become familiar with that motion.
Become familiar with the rhythm.
Master the rhythm.
Discard unneeded motion while retaining rhythmic mastery; or vary it at the needs of a performance without worrying about losing rhythmic mastery.
I suspect that foot-tapping and "dancing" variants are more like this rather than a "do or do not" absolute law. In this performance we pretty much see the spectrum: some people are pretty still in the "low energy" beginning; while others are already dancing, and as the energy increases, the dancing increases. On the other hand, there is no worry here about someone pounding the floor with their feet messing up the overall rhythmic focus.
And obviously the drummer is "foot tapping" the entire time.
<YOUTUBE id="Ne5PNPVN9OI">
Foot-tapping could be thought of as integration of very minimal dancing to tromboning. So: watching this performance, there is clearly dancing going on, and maybe this translates to literal foot tapping or not; with the given camera angles, it's impossible to tell.
But - I think it's pretty clear that for these musicians, any resulting dancing or foot-tapping is tied to the energy of joyous music making, rather than an external effort to try to feel time. Consider a learning sequence:
Start with physical motion to internalize an unfamiliar rhythm.
Become familiar with that motion.
Become familiar with the rhythm.
Master the rhythm.
Discard unneeded motion while retaining rhythmic mastery; or vary it at the needs of a performance without worrying about losing rhythmic mastery.
I suspect that foot-tapping and "dancing" variants are more like this rather than a "do or do not" absolute law. In this performance we pretty much see the spectrum: some people are pretty still in the "low energy" beginning; while others are already dancing, and as the energy increases, the dancing increases. On the other hand, there is no worry here about someone pounding the floor with their feet messing up the overall rhythmic focus.
And obviously the drummer is "foot tapping" the entire time.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I used to play in a quintet where one of the trumpet players tapped his foot, sometimes quite loudly, and not always in time. (Cue Brad’s pet peeve.) Comments, intercessions, and pleas were only partially successful.
One rehearsal, when said trumpet player again started tapping his foot, I quietly reached into my mute bag and pulled out a tent stake and 3-pound sledgehammer. When said trumpet asked what the implements were for, I replied, “To nail your foot to the floor next time it starts tapping.”
One rehearsal, when said trumpet player again started tapping his foot, I quietly reached into my mute bag and pulled out a tent stake and 3-pound sledgehammer. When said trumpet asked what the implements were for, I replied, “To nail your foot to the floor next time it starts tapping.”
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Olofson"]<YOUTUBE id="_4DrbXqWZT8">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_4DrbXqWZT8</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
The foot movements are pretty random. It's clearly not helping them keep time. They already know how to keep time. I am not bothered in the least by people moving around when playing trad jazz.
The foot movements are pretty random. It's clearly not helping them keep time. They already know how to keep time. I am not bothered in the least by people moving around when playing trad jazz.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="273030" time="1744521889" user_id="4102">
Really? You were taught that you should look bored? I have never in my life EVER heard any teacher say that.[/quote]
Now that we have easy access to concert videos with close-ups of the players, you can see the dead-eyed mask people adopt when counting rests. It's really starting to bother me.
</QUOTE>
Yeah. Of all the many things I learned from this teacher, that was the only dud. Not surprisingly, that person is out of classical music. Didn’t actually seem to enjoy it…. To nobody’s surprise. But he was so joyous when in an environment he liked. Think that was more the issue there, but either way, I want to see more joy and emotion from so called serious ensembles, not less.
The point was not the boredom, but the professional, serious veneer (meh). The matching, useful pedagogical point was that this is an auditory medium, you must convey your emotion through sound. Fair enough on that point (and this teacher was FANTASTIC on detailed thoughts on every note of every excerpt and how to technically convey the emotion that he wanted. Just looked like a wax robot while playing and almost looked asleep while counting rests.
Cheers,
Andy
Really? You were taught that you should look bored? I have never in my life EVER heard any teacher say that.[/quote]
Now that we have easy access to concert videos with close-ups of the players, you can see the dead-eyed mask people adopt when counting rests. It's really starting to bother me.
</QUOTE>
Yeah. Of all the many things I learned from this teacher, that was the only dud. Not surprisingly, that person is out of classical music. Didn’t actually seem to enjoy it…. To nobody’s surprise. But he was so joyous when in an environment he liked. Think that was more the issue there, but either way, I want to see more joy and emotion from so called serious ensembles, not less.
The point was not the boredom, but the professional, serious veneer (meh). The matching, useful pedagogical point was that this is an auditory medium, you must convey your emotion through sound. Fair enough on that point (and this teacher was FANTASTIC on detailed thoughts on every note of every excerpt and how to technically convey the emotion that he wanted. Just looked like a wax robot while playing and almost looked asleep while counting rests.
Cheers,
Andy
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="elmsandr"]<QUOTE author="AtomicClock" post_id="273033" time="1744523128" user_id="17161">
Now that we have easy access to concert videos with close-ups of the players, you can see the dead-eyed mask people adopt when counting rests. It's really starting to bother me.[/quote]
Yeah. Of all the many things I learned from this teacher, that was the only dud. Not surprisingly, that person is out of classical music. Didn’t actually seem to enjoy it…. To nobody’s surprise. But he was so joyous when in an environment he liked. Think that was more the issue there, but either way, I want to see more joy and emotion from so called serious ensembles, not less.
The point was not the boredom, but the professional, serious veneer (meh). The matching, useful pedagogical point was that this is an auditory medium, you must convey your emotion through sound. Fair enough on that point (and this teacher was FANTASTIC on detailed thoughts on every note of every excerpt and how to technically convey the emotion that he wanted. Just looked like a wax robot while playing and almost looked asleep while counting rests.
Cheers,
Andy
</QUOTE>
A particular trombone player I used to go hear a lot never displayed any emotion while on stage, but that didn't bother me at all because what was coming out of his bell was fantastic. I don't need to see orchestra musicians dancing around. I'm there to hear the music. But shame on your teacher for saying anyone should deliberately try to look "bored".
The kind of foot tapping behavior I was talking about in the first post doesn't convey joy, in my opinion. To me it just looks like a nervous habit of an insecure player. I think in many cases, they were taught to do it as a kid and just never dropped the habit, and probably aren't even aware that they are doing it.
Now that we have easy access to concert videos with close-ups of the players, you can see the dead-eyed mask people adopt when counting rests. It's really starting to bother me.[/quote]
Yeah. Of all the many things I learned from this teacher, that was the only dud. Not surprisingly, that person is out of classical music. Didn’t actually seem to enjoy it…. To nobody’s surprise. But he was so joyous when in an environment he liked. Think that was more the issue there, but either way, I want to see more joy and emotion from so called serious ensembles, not less.
The point was not the boredom, but the professional, serious veneer (meh). The matching, useful pedagogical point was that this is an auditory medium, you must convey your emotion through sound. Fair enough on that point (and this teacher was FANTASTIC on detailed thoughts on every note of every excerpt and how to technically convey the emotion that he wanted. Just looked like a wax robot while playing and almost looked asleep while counting rests.
Cheers,
Andy
</QUOTE>
A particular trombone player I used to go hear a lot never displayed any emotion while on stage, but that didn't bother me at all because what was coming out of his bell was fantastic. I don't need to see orchestra musicians dancing around. I'm there to hear the music. But shame on your teacher for saying anyone should deliberately try to look "bored".
The kind of foot tapping behavior I was talking about in the first post doesn't convey joy, in my opinion. To me it just looks like a nervous habit of an insecure player. I think in many cases, they were taught to do it as a kid and just never dropped the habit, and probably aren't even aware that they are doing it.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
As to "professional demeanor," I think it's about knowing what your job is. Sometimes the job is to be engaging to the audience both visually and aurally, in which case I move a lot. More often in my career, my job is to play very precisely with the musicians around me and not be distracting to them or the audience. In other words, the show is not about me at all and my role is supportive most of the time. In that case I don't move around much. I don't think I look bored, but maybe some might see it that way.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="brassmedic"]To me it just looks like a nervous habit of an insecure player. I think in many cases, they were taught to do it as a kid and just never dropped the habit, and probably aren't even aware that they are doing it.[/quote]
In my case, it was "Oh, I appear to have bad time. I'd better tap even harder." Tapping was the *only* approach ever taught to me, to stay with the beat. Well, taught to a room of middle schoolers of varying abilities I happened to be a member of.
I still don't have great time, but at least I quashed the tapping. I'm sure things would be even worse if I poisoned the time of all my neighbors, too. The turning point was when I was told my foot was behind. Until then, I assumed the foot was correct, and I was just playing behind it.
In my case, it was "Oh, I appear to have bad time. I'd better tap even harder." Tapping was the *only* approach ever taught to me, to stay with the beat. Well, taught to a room of middle schoolers of varying abilities I happened to be a member of.
I still don't have great time, but at least I quashed the tapping. I'm sure things would be even worse if I poisoned the time of all my neighbors, too. The turning point was when I was told my foot was behind. Until then, I assumed the foot was correct, and I was just playing behind it.
- baBposaune
- Posts: 391
- Joined: Jan 21, 2019
One of my favorite trombonists here in LA is a good friend of mine. A foot tapper. Great time, very musical, can play in a symphony or a jazz club. Tapping works for him.
I was taught in college by the conductor of the top wind ensemble to NOT tap your foot. He'd say, "What if your foot is wrong?" He wanted people to keep steady time in their heads. (Plus metronome practice to keep you honest.)
I don't tap my foot. Works for me. I learned by high school the value of subdividing in my head. And listening. Everyone is responsible for time. The job is to have everyone's time line up, whether you tap your foot or not.
I was taught in college by the conductor of the top wind ensemble to NOT tap your foot. He'd say, "What if your foot is wrong?" He wanted people to keep steady time in their heads. (Plus metronome practice to keep you honest.)
I don't tap my foot. Works for me. I learned by high school the value of subdividing in my head. And listening. Everyone is responsible for time. The job is to have everyone's time line up, whether you tap your foot or not.
- PhilE
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
K Biggs' -that poem you posted Until I Saw Your Foot is so good.
Amateur bone player here.
Some years ago the community band I play with was playing a concert in an old building with a wooden floor.
I was pounding away with my left foot as I always did, oblivious to its effect on others when an annoyed clarinet player in front of me told me to stop.
It took a while to kick the habit but I reduced it from pounding to light tapping.
A few years later we were playing an outdoor Christmas gig when a friend (a top order musician) commented to me afterwards how many different foot tapping rhythms he saw in the group which bore no resemblance to the music.
More recently an ex military music director told us to resist the urge to move any part of the body in time. He said it doesn't help you keep time in fact, he said, it will hinder your ability to play correct time because of the mental energy (distraction) required to do the movement - foot tapping specifically.
It is, he said, much better to focus the mind on the pulse and subdivision.
It works for me.
Amateur bone player here.
Some years ago the community band I play with was playing a concert in an old building with a wooden floor.
I was pounding away with my left foot as I always did, oblivious to its effect on others when an annoyed clarinet player in front of me told me to stop.
It took a while to kick the habit but I reduced it from pounding to light tapping.
A few years later we were playing an outdoor Christmas gig when a friend (a top order musician) commented to me afterwards how many different foot tapping rhythms he saw in the group which bore no resemblance to the music.
More recently an ex military music director told us to resist the urge to move any part of the body in time. He said it doesn't help you keep time in fact, he said, it will hinder your ability to play correct time because of the mental energy (distraction) required to do the movement - foot tapping specifically.
It is, he said, much better to focus the mind on the pulse and subdivision.
It works for me.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
On the topic specifically of foot-tapping, I really don't think it has much to do with having good time. I used to tap my foot, then I stopped. I had good time before and still had good time after. There are people who have awful time, and whose time is not any better or worse when they start tapping. There are specific instances where I can conceived it as helpful, and some I can see it would be hurtful. Overall I don't really care much if people tap their foot or not, except when they do it in a way that's distracting to colleagues, then I care very much!
One more fundamental reservation I have is that foot-tapping goes, for me (and this is linked with the other thread where we've discussed musicality and artistry), with a way of conceptualizing time that I believe more people should get out of, more of the time. That is, that there's a notion of "time" and pulse that is independant of the music, and upon which the music is then superimposed and lined up. That concept works great (when not downright required) for certain general genres or repertoires, and certain specific contexts. But there's also a lot of repertoire where, for me, it is much more helpful to think in terms of momentum, where increasing or decreasing tension, melodically or harmonically or timbrally, is what generates the expectation (that can then either be fulfilled or confounded) of where the beats fall – in other words, conceptualizing time not as what dictates when the musical events happen, but as the result of the musical events happening the particular way they have. I find that when one feels rhythm and time as this immutable, extra-musical governing reality, they are much less likely to generate interesting momentum through phrasing and shaping of the music, than when one needs to shape and phrase every moment of the music in order for it to have a momentum that makes sense and feels both interesting and organic. Foot-tapping is more likely to happen in the former than the latter, simply it kind of makes no sense in the latter.
On the more general topic of moving too much (or inversely, looking as bored as possible), I do think there is somewhat of an over-emphasis on staying as still as possible in certain circles of the classical world (and especially in the brass). What I think I've learned so far through both playing and conducting, and both as a student and as a teacher, is that movement in itself is not inherently bad; not being grounded is. One frequently sees someone move "too much" and it being hurtful to the music, but when I analyse it in myself or others, the problem is typically not merely that they are moving, but rather that they are moving in a way that takes them out of their "grounding", motions that create involuntary instability. But while movement can impair grounding, movement can also help it, and help the connection to the music. Some of the most memorable performances I've had, where I've felt the most "locked in" with an ensemble and in the music, where gigs where everybody was moving a lot more than I usually see. Chamber music projects with complex rubato and freedom but where we try to generate and feel the time together instead of one person cueing, and a couple orchestra gigs without conductor where everyone played standing.
One more fundamental reservation I have is that foot-tapping goes, for me (and this is linked with the other thread where we've discussed musicality and artistry), with a way of conceptualizing time that I believe more people should get out of, more of the time. That is, that there's a notion of "time" and pulse that is independant of the music, and upon which the music is then superimposed and lined up. That concept works great (when not downright required) for certain general genres or repertoires, and certain specific contexts. But there's also a lot of repertoire where, for me, it is much more helpful to think in terms of momentum, where increasing or decreasing tension, melodically or harmonically or timbrally, is what generates the expectation (that can then either be fulfilled or confounded) of where the beats fall – in other words, conceptualizing time not as what dictates when the musical events happen, but as the result of the musical events happening the particular way they have. I find that when one feels rhythm and time as this immutable, extra-musical governing reality, they are much less likely to generate interesting momentum through phrasing and shaping of the music, than when one needs to shape and phrase every moment of the music in order for it to have a momentum that makes sense and feels both interesting and organic. Foot-tapping is more likely to happen in the former than the latter, simply it kind of makes no sense in the latter.
On the more general topic of moving too much (or inversely, looking as bored as possible), I do think there is somewhat of an over-emphasis on staying as still as possible in certain circles of the classical world (and especially in the brass). What I think I've learned so far through both playing and conducting, and both as a student and as a teacher, is that movement in itself is not inherently bad; not being grounded is. One frequently sees someone move "too much" and it being hurtful to the music, but when I analyse it in myself or others, the problem is typically not merely that they are moving, but rather that they are moving in a way that takes them out of their "grounding", motions that create involuntary instability. But while movement can impair grounding, movement can also help it, and help the connection to the music. Some of the most memorable performances I've had, where I've felt the most "locked in" with an ensemble and in the music, where gigs where everybody was moving a lot more than I usually see. Chamber music projects with complex rubato and freedom but where we try to generate and feel the time together instead of one person cueing, and a couple orchestra gigs without conductor where everyone played standing.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="musicofnote" post_id="273046" time="1744551443" user_id="15257">
Admin: Is there a way, like in facebook to attach an emoji to a specific comment here? Not to an additional comment or copy/quote of the original comment, but rather to the original comment itself? Would save a lot of time and energy.[/quote]
Sorry. That would mean giving you the permission to edit posts other than your own, potentially allowing some serious mischief.
</QUOTE>
Another forum I frequent has a little drop-down menu at the lower right of each post that lets you choose positive emojis like thumbsup, applause, LOL, etc.
For when you care enough to click twice.
Admin: Is there a way, like in facebook to attach an emoji to a specific comment here? Not to an additional comment or copy/quote of the original comment, but rather to the original comment itself? Would save a lot of time and energy.[/quote]
Sorry. That would mean giving you the permission to edit posts other than your own, potentially allowing some serious mischief.
</QUOTE>
Another forum I frequent has a little drop-down menu at the lower right of each post that lets you choose positive emojis like thumbsup, applause, LOL, etc.
For when you care enough to click twice.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]Sorry. That would mean giving you the permission to edit posts other than your own, potentially allowing some serious mischief.[/quote]
No, what he's talking about is the ability to avoid a full on comment by giving a thumbs up, smilie, eye-roll, face-palm - like a "like" but more flexible.
No, what he's talking about is the ability to avoid a full on comment by giving a thumbs up, smilie, eye-roll, face-palm - like a "like" but more flexible.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="273051" time="1744553267" user_id="53">
Sorry. That would mean giving you the permission to edit posts other than your own, potentially allowing some serious mischief.[/quote]
No, what he's talking about is the ability to avoid a full on comment by giving a thumbs up, smilie, eye-roll, face-palm - like a "like" but more flexible.
</QUOTE>
Sure, but I haven't found that capability in our setup.
Sorry. That would mean giving you the permission to edit posts other than your own, potentially allowing some serious mischief.[/quote]
No, what he's talking about is the ability to avoid a full on comment by giving a thumbs up, smilie, eye-roll, face-palm - like a "like" but more flexible.
</QUOTE>
Sure, but I haven't found that capability in our setup.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]Sure, but I haven't found that capability in our setup.[/quote]
Right. It's a plug in that would need to be installed.
Right. It's a plug in that would need to be installed.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="274740" time="1746209703" user_id="53">
Sure, but I haven't found that capability in our setup.[/quote]
Right. It's a plug in that would need to be installed.
</QUOTE>
That's above my pay grade. :frown:
Sure, but I haven't found that capability in our setup.[/quote]
Right. It's a plug in that would need to be installed.
</QUOTE>
That's above my pay grade. :frown:
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
When these FaceBook videos are too big for the screen you can do CTRL-[minus] to ensmallen the page.
<FACEBOOK id="1195288968432601">[media]https://www.facebook.com/reel/1195288968432601</FACEBOOK>
<FACEBOOK id="1195288968432601">
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="robcat2075"]When these FaceBook videos are too big for the screen you can do CTRL-[minus] to ensmallen the page.[/quote]
Or just click the fullscreen arrows.
Or just click the fullscreen arrows.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]When these FaceBook videos are too big for the screen you can do CTRL-[minus] to ensmallen the page.[/quote]
Robert,
Not all of us use Facebook. My system has "blocked this post to prevent Facebook from tracking you"
Robert,
Not all of us use Facebook. My system has "blocked this post to prevent Facebook from tracking you"
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
Just imagine how good these guys would be if they only would stop "tapping" their feet.
<YOUTUBE id="uT3SBzmDxGk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT3SBzmDxGk</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="uT3SBzmDxGk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT3SBzmDxGk</YOUTUBE>
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
Well, if you don't have percussion.
<YOUTUBE id="9eRjCG5D4j0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eRjCG5D4j0</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="9eRjCG5D4j0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eRjCG5D4j0</YOUTUBE>
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
A new take on foot tapping - therapeutic...
<YOUTUBE id="Bd0xfIirsP0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd0xfIirsP0</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="Bd0xfIirsP0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd0xfIirsP0</YOUTUBE>
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I played roadie for these guys one summer. The percussion is mainly feet, but also washboard and I think you might catch some spoons in there. To add insult to purist injury, I think they wear actual metal taps on their shoes, toe and heel. French Canadian folk. Somewhere between Irish and Bluegrass. If you need a visual watch the second one. The first one is a studio version.
<YOUTUBE id="KL-YhguJRMk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL-YhguJRMk</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="F7iCM5k8Q3A">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7iCM5k8Q3A</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="KL-YhguJRMk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL-YhguJRMk</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="F7iCM5k8Q3A">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7iCM5k8Q3A</YOUTUBE>
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="274969" time="1746413696" user_id="3697">
When these FaceBook videos are too big for the screen you can do CTRL-[minus] to ensmallen the page.[/quote]
Not all of us use Facebook. My system has "blocked this post to prevent Facebook from tracking you"
</QUOTE>
A potential problem for almost all external links, I'm afraid, and the clip appears on no other platform.
I presume your system security has the option of un-blocking on a per-page basis but that's a risk you have to weigh.
When these FaceBook videos are too big for the screen you can do CTRL-[minus] to ensmallen the page.[/quote]
Not all of us use Facebook. My system has "blocked this post to prevent Facebook from tracking you"
</QUOTE>
A potential problem for almost all external links, I'm afraid, and the clip appears on no other platform.
I presume your system security has the option of un-blocking on a per-page basis but that's a risk you have to weigh.
- TheConnArtist70H
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Nov 10, 2024
I would definitely not be able to control my foot if playing this........... :good:
Sorry Brad...... but I do get your point, however don't tend to get to hung up about it personally.
<YOUTUBE id="QCyfUFj6Z_g">https://youtu.be/QCyfUFj6Z_g?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>
No sarcasm intended bye the way :D
Sorry Brad...... but I do get your point, however don't tend to get to hung up about it personally.
<YOUTUBE id="QCyfUFj6Z_g">https://youtu.be/QCyfUFj6Z_g?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>
No sarcasm intended bye the way :D
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I saw an old Thad Jones/Mel Lewis video online a couple of weeks ago - Dave Taylor is definitely tapping his foot as well as a lot of movement when he plays too. In many situations it's distracting - in others, not as much. Rather than a blanket rule against, I would say "read the room" and try not to be distracting towards others and getting in the way of their concentration.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
- Fairweather
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Jul 12, 2022
Foot tapping is most useful for getting thru chaos. No need to tap your foot when everything is purring.
- heldenbone
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Aug 21, 2018
Real world ever intrudes... we have a genuine "stomper" in the pit for this run. I hope we have carpet and the sound techs are both adept and kind at handling it. The director seems unaware.
- jjenkins
- Posts: 364
- Joined: Apr 22, 2018
I prefer to tap my toes inside of my shoe. There's far less muscle mass to move, and I achieve the same overall effect without the visual distraction. I do find toe tapping to be distracting in many cases, and in some settings, maybe even sophomoric. I feel it's totally fine in private practice session, however.
I have to admit that "toe tapping is bad" was drilled into me earlier on, and then I ended up studying with the late Dr. Art Jennings at the University of Florida, who was a Carmine Caruso devotee, and had studied with him privately for many years. Dr. Jennings had us apply some of Caruso's Calisthenics exercises in our lessons and private practice. I eventually realized that enough students who tapped their toes thought they were in time with the overall beat, but they were only in time with themselves, but not everyone else. I attribute that partially to the fact that tapping your toe for a prolonged period of time tires your tibialis anterior muscle, and when muscles tire, they become inefficient and work poorly. So, a decrease in physical time keeping at quicker tempi is almost inevitable.
I have to admit that "toe tapping is bad" was drilled into me earlier on, and then I ended up studying with the late Dr. Art Jennings at the University of Florida, who was a Carmine Caruso devotee, and had studied with him privately for many years. Dr. Jennings had us apply some of Caruso's Calisthenics exercises in our lessons and private practice. I eventually realized that enough students who tapped their toes thought they were in time with the overall beat, but they were only in time with themselves, but not everyone else. I attribute that partially to the fact that tapping your toe for a prolonged period of time tires your tibialis anterior muscle, and when muscles tire, they become inefficient and work poorly. So, a decrease in physical time keeping at quicker tempi is almost inevitable.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I played trombone quartets on Sunday, and the guy leading it was tapping his foot very heavily. The problem was that he wasn't even tapping it in time to his playing!
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I played trombone quartets on Sunday, and the guy leading it was tapping his foot very heavily. The problem was that he wasn't even tapping it in time to his playing![/quote]
Marching to a different drummer. :idk:
Marching to a different drummer. :idk:
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="TheConnArtist70H"]I would definitely not be able to control my foot if playing this........... :good:
Sorry Brad...... but I do get your point, however don't tend to get to hung up about it personally.
<YOUTUBE id="QCyfUFj6Z_g">https://youtu.be/QCyfUFj6Z_g?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>
No sarcasm intended bye the way :D[/quote]
Not sure you do get my point. Maybe go back and read everything I wrote.
Sorry Brad...... but I do get your point, however don't tend to get to hung up about it personally.
<YOUTUBE id="QCyfUFj6Z_g">https://youtu.be/QCyfUFj6Z_g?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>
No sarcasm intended bye the way :D[/quote]
Not sure you do get my point. Maybe go back and read everything I wrote.
- TheConnArtist70H
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Nov 10, 2024
Sorry I didn't realise this thread still had legs, or should I say Feet.... :good:
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
<YOUTUBE id="wDrSBWmJ8lg">[media]https://youtu.be/wDrSBWmJ8lg?si=HlzDIajg_j6-Bhh2</YOUTUBE>
It's definitely okay to do it. Tommy Emmanuel endorses.
And yes, he has better rhythm than anyone on this thread, especially the non-foot tappers. <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>
No I'm joking about that last part. Better rhythm than all of us here. Inclusive.
It's definitely okay to do it. Tommy Emmanuel endorses.
And yes, he has better rhythm than anyone on this thread, especially the non-foot tappers. <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>
No I'm joking about that last part. Better rhythm than all of us here. Inclusive.
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Whatever. Anybody coming into my orchestra, that keeps tapping their foot after being warned, doesn't come back. Simple.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="blast"]Whatever. Anybody coming into my orchestra, that keeps tapping their foot after being warned, doesn't come back. Simple.[/quote]
Our friend who (decades ago) played in the Philadelphia Orchestra recounted the tale of a substitute oboist who was slouching (and probably not paying full attention to the conductor) during a rehearsal. Eugene Ormandy gave him the steely eye and said something to him. When asked what the maestro had said, his seatmate told him "You're fired!" Sure enough, the substitute never returned after intermission. :horror:
Our friend who (decades ago) played in the Philadelphia Orchestra recounted the tale of a substitute oboist who was slouching (and probably not paying full attention to the conductor) during a rehearsal. Eugene Ormandy gave him the steely eye and said something to him. When asked what the maestro had said, his seatmate told him "You're fired!" Sure enough, the substitute never returned after intermission. :horror:
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="bwilliams"]
[/quote]
Indeed! Honestly I don't think that orchestras (or sections) firing people for tapping their foot really lends any credibility to their methodology for retaining talent or firing people for cause, considering recent events in orchestra world.
Indeed! Honestly I don't think that orchestras (or sections) firing people for tapping their foot really lends any credibility to their methodology for retaining talent or firing people for cause, considering recent events in orchestra world.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Do some of you NEED to tap your foot? Can you play without tapping your foot? Because, if so, why die on this hill? Just stop tapping and play.
I tapped my foot because it was a bad habit I was taught when I was brand new, as a crutch, like touching the bell for 3rd position. Eventually, I grew up and realized I had a bad habit. I didn't defend the habit. I changed it.
Is there some need to foot tap? Obviously it really bothers some people and for sure in an orchestra it's a distraction for musicians and audience alike. So, why defend it? Why not just stop?
I'm pretty sure there's a 12-step program for that. :D
I tapped my foot because it was a bad habit I was taught when I was brand new, as a crutch, like touching the bell for 3rd position. Eventually, I grew up and realized I had a bad habit. I didn't defend the habit. I changed it.
Is there some need to foot tap? Obviously it really bothers some people and for sure in an orchestra it's a distraction for musicians and audience alike. So, why defend it? Why not just stop?
I'm pretty sure there's a 12-step program for that. :D
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
This thread exists, so yes, there is a need to argue against the premise. That's what we do here.
Otherwise the thread would go:
"STOP TAPPING YOUR FOOT!!"
followed by:
"Okay!"
And then the moderator could close the thread for lack of activity.
I think we've at least determined, to the credit of OPs premise that audibly stomping your foot on the floor and annoying your section is bad.
Otherwise the thread would go:
"STOP TAPPING YOUR FOOT!!"
followed by:
"Okay!"
And then the moderator could close the thread for lack of activity.
I think we've at least determined, to the credit of OPs premise that audibly stomping your foot on the floor and annoying your section is bad.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
I know someone who has a tendency when they get musically excited to snap their fingers to the beat. Except, they always snap a tad late. Really hard to ignore. :horror:
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]I know someone who has a tendency when they get musically excited to snap their fingers to the beat. Except, they always snap a tad late. Really hard to ignore. :horror:[/quote]
I know several trombone players who have a tendency to play a tad late. That's pretty hard to ignore, too.
I know several trombone players who have a tendency to play a tad late. That's pretty hard to ignore, too.
- tim
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Apr 18, 2018
I had a lesson with Caruso in which I started playing without tapping my foot, he immediately stopped me and told me to come back when I was ready to play. He told me I wasn't tapping my foot, meant I wasn't tieing the time to my body and playing. The late Sam Burtis (may he rest in peace tells the same story), we talked about it the later years after Carmine had passed and we agreed it was a great lesson. The body has to know before the movements become automatic.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Laurel & Hardy made silent comedy about foot tapping. And break-away pants.
<YOUTUBE id="LgSCgtIiX4o">[media]https://youtu.be/LgSCgtIiX4o</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="LgSCgtIiX4o">