Playing high notes on large bore tenor
- sing2bass
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Apr 12, 2025
The trombone section in my community band has part flexibility.
I played first in our last concert and was glad I had my Conn 6h and Bach 12c mp.
I had trouble playing high notes on my Blessing B88 w/ Schilke Symphony D5.1 mp.
Is it possible, with more practice to master high playing with the larger mp?
I played first in our last concert and was glad I had my Conn 6h and Bach 12c mp.
I had trouble playing high notes on my Blessing B88 w/ Schilke Symphony D5.1 mp.
Is it possible, with more practice to master high playing with the larger mp?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Short answer? Yes.
I had a bass trombone part with a High C (C5, 4 lines above the bass staff) and I played it on my Doug Elliott LB112/L/L7 mouthpiece in my King 7B.
You need to do some rangebuilding exercises on your Blessing with the D5.1 mouthpiece. I'd start with the Remington Exercise #8, Security in the Upper Register (you'll have to find a copy; mine seems to have disappeared). Playing a large bore requires more strength and less finesse, but you should be able to play almost the same range on the 6H and the B88.
I had a bass trombone part with a High C (C5, 4 lines above the bass staff) and I played it on my Doug Elliott LB112/L/L7 mouthpiece in my King 7B.
You need to do some rangebuilding exercises on your Blessing with the D5.1 mouthpiece. I'd start with the Remington Exercise #8, Security in the Upper Register (you'll have to find a copy; mine seems to have disappeared). Playing a large bore requires more strength and less finesse, but you should be able to play almost the same range on the 6H and the B88.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Success in the high range on a large bore and/or a larger mouthpiece depends largely on whether you're playing correctly for your particular embouchure. And some embouchures really do need smaller equipment to play high easily.
- sing2bass
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Apr 12, 2025
Thank you. I have the Remington book done in manuscript and I work that exercise. Like Doug said, it's easier with smaller horn an mp.
- Tooloud
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Mar 31, 2018
But the D 5.1 is a very capable all round mpc. It should not hinder you. I have a secure d" on my Thayer large bore with it. The problem with range is me, not the equipment. Just practise, the material is fine.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Range (in addition to the right embouchure as Doug mentions) takes time and practice. You have to develop strength, just like any athletic achievement. Build toward it using the correct techniques. Get a good teacher, and spend some of your time watching them play, and/or playing duets with them. Make sure your equipment is in good order. Practice scales, intervals, songs, solos, concertos, playing by ear, Real Book... practice things up an octave, down an octave.
As far as size of gear, I don't really find smaller gear to be easier, I just find that the smaller horn sounds better in the upper range. Likewise bigger gear sounds better in the lower range. I have roughly the same range up and down regardless of which horn I'm playing.
There are exceptions. I played a Bach NY 6 that gave me an extra 4th or 5th on top of my normal range. And I have a bass mouthpiece that adds about a step to my low range.
As far as size of gear, I don't really find smaller gear to be easier, I just find that the smaller horn sounds better in the upper range. Likewise bigger gear sounds better in the lower range. I have roughly the same range up and down regardless of which horn I'm playing.
There are exceptions. I played a Bach NY 6 that gave me an extra 4th or 5th on top of my normal range. And I have a bass mouthpiece that adds about a step to my low range.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
My experience -- and for the record I'm often out of step with many here, and don't hold myself out as any kind of expert -- has been that adjusting to different sized equipment is very much an issue of finding the right feel. You can't play that bore horn the same way you'd play a smaller/larger horn. Every bore size (and to some extent every horn) is its own "person" and you have to meet it where it lives, not where you're used to being. That alone will help.
And I think that probably goes extra for the high range. Mastering the high range itself, on any horn, is very much about finding the right feel. Yes, you have to have strength, flexibility and endurance in your muscles, but even more than that is finding that Goldilocks feel for the range, at which point it blossoms and becomes not about muscle strength, but about nailing the feeling that will allow the horn to open up for you.
I'm sure that sounds way too new age or whatever, but I'm serious about the fact that the upper register is more about feel than it is about effort on any horn, and especially when you're changing bore sizes. Just don't start doing weird stuff that messes up a good embouchure to find it.
And I think that probably goes extra for the high range. Mastering the high range itself, on any horn, is very much about finding the right feel. Yes, you have to have strength, flexibility and endurance in your muscles, but even more than that is finding that Goldilocks feel for the range, at which point it blossoms and becomes not about muscle strength, but about nailing the feeling that will allow the horn to open up for you.
I'm sure that sounds way too new age or whatever, but I'm serious about the fact that the upper register is more about feel than it is about effort on any horn, and especially when you're changing bore sizes. Just don't start doing weird stuff that messes up a good embouchure to find it.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
Meeting a horn where it's at doesn't sound too new age at all. It's just physics. A different size pipe will take a different amount of force before it backs up. That's the sweet spot to look for.
I haven't had to do it for a few years, but I used to do the bugle calls for Remembrance Day once a year so I learned trumpet again each year. It was all about finding the right blow. The mouthpiece took a smaller bite of the red part of my lips, but was pretty much where my trombone mouthpiece sits and every thing else was quite similar.
I haven't had to do it for a few years, but I used to do the bugle calls for Remembrance Day once a year so I learned trumpet again each year. It was all about finding the right blow. The mouthpiece took a smaller bite of the red part of my lips, but was pretty much where my trombone mouthpiece sits and every thing else was quite similar.
- Jwesleym
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 01, 2024
I have a similar problem. I play a large bore with a Shilke 51d mouthpiece. I can reach the higher notes, but find that I have no stamina. About an hour in, I'm about done. I started playing again about 2 yrs ago after a 25ish year break. Do I need exercises to build up my embouchure? Should I use a smaller mouthpiece when playing 1st chair in our community band? Any help would be appreciated.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Your problem is very common. You've only been playing for 2 years after a VERY long layoff. Your range will come back with work, but it won't come back instantly.
The 51D isn't helping. A shallower mouthpiece will help the high register, at the expense of sonority in the low. Changing to a plain 51 or a Bach 5G may help a little, but doing good rangebuilding exercises will help more. If you can find the Remington Warmup Exercises (they are way more than warmup) look at #8, Security in the Upper Register. I used these exercises to work my range up to F5 (6 lines above the bass staff) even on my bass trombone.
The 51D isn't helping. A shallower mouthpiece will help the high register, at the expense of sonority in the low. Changing to a plain 51 or a Bach 5G may help a little, but doing good rangebuilding exercises will help more. If you can find the Remington Warmup Exercises (they are way more than warmup) look at #8, Security in the Upper Register. I used these exercises to work my range up to F5 (6 lines above the bass staff) even on my bass trombone.
- Jwesleym
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 01, 2024
Thanks for the reply,
I recently 3d printed a 5G mouthpiece in and have found that it does help with my range and stamina, but definitely need to work with it more for my change in tone. Also, actually buy a real one. The 3D print really helped me to try other mouthpieces for cheap. I use a resin printer, so the layer lines are hardly noticeable.
I will look up the Remington Warmup Exercises that you reference. Our community band is about to be on break for a few months, so a great time to do plenty of exercises.
[quote="BGuttman"]Your problem is very common. You've only been playing for 2 years after a VERY long layoff. Your range will come back with work, but it won't come back instantly.
The 51D isn't helping. A shallower mouthpiece will help the high register, at the expense of sonority in the low. Changing to a plain 51 or a Bach 5G may help a little, but doing good rangebuilding exercises will help more. If you can find the Remington Warmup Exercises (they are way more than warmup) look at #8, Security in the Upper Register. I used these exercises to work my range up to F5 (6 lines above the bass staff) even on my bass trombone.[/quote]
I recently 3d printed a 5G mouthpiece in and have found that it does help with my range and stamina, but definitely need to work with it more for my change in tone. Also, actually buy a real one. The 3D print really helped me to try other mouthpieces for cheap. I use a resin printer, so the layer lines are hardly noticeable.
I will look up the Remington Warmup Exercises that you reference. Our community band is about to be on break for a few months, so a great time to do plenty of exercises.
[quote="BGuttman"]Your problem is very common. You've only been playing for 2 years after a VERY long layoff. Your range will come back with work, but it won't come back instantly.
The 51D isn't helping. A shallower mouthpiece will help the high register, at the expense of sonority in the low. Changing to a plain 51 or a Bach 5G may help a little, but doing good rangebuilding exercises will help more. If you can find the Remington Warmup Exercises (they are way more than warmup) look at #8, Security in the Upper Register. I used these exercises to work my range up to F5 (6 lines above the bass staff) even on my bass trombone.[/quote]
- JeffBone44
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Oct 24, 2022
[quote="BGuttman"]Your problem is very common. You've only been playing for 2 years after a VERY long layoff. Your range will come back with work, but it won't come back instantly.
The 51D isn't helping. A shallower mouthpiece will help the high register, at the expense of sonority in the low. Changing to a plain 51 or a Bach 5G may help a little, but doing good rangebuilding exercises will help more. If you can find the Remington Warmup Exercises (they are way more than warmup) look at #8, Security in the Upper Register. I used these exercises to work my range up to F5 (6 lines above the bass staff) even on my bass trombone.[/quote]
I agree on the 51D. For most people, the 51D is a better fit on euphonium, yet I see so many trombonists using it. They would have a much easier time with something shallower.
Peter Steiner has a great high range video on YouTube, and you can play along with it. I've been using it and I've gotten good results.
The 51D isn't helping. A shallower mouthpiece will help the high register, at the expense of sonority in the low. Changing to a plain 51 or a Bach 5G may help a little, but doing good rangebuilding exercises will help more. If you can find the Remington Warmup Exercises (they are way more than warmup) look at #8, Security in the Upper Register. I used these exercises to work my range up to F5 (6 lines above the bass staff) even on my bass trombone.[/quote]
I agree on the 51D. For most people, the 51D is a better fit on euphonium, yet I see so many trombonists using it. They would have a much easier time with something shallower.
Peter Steiner has a great high range video on YouTube, and you can play along with it. I've been using it and I've gotten good results.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
[quote="JeffBone44"]
Peter Steiner has a great high range video on YouTube, and you can play along with it. I've been using it and I've gotten good results.[/quote]
William Lang also has some YT video out on exercises to improve your high range that are worth tracking down.
Peter Steiner has a great high range video on YouTube, and you can play along with it. I've been using it and I've gotten good results.[/quote]
William Lang also has some YT video out on exercises to improve your high range that are worth tracking down.
- JeffBone44
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Oct 24, 2022
[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="JeffBone44" post_id="274617" time="1746108336" user_id="15834">
Peter Steiner has a great high range video on YouTube, and you can play along with it. I've been using it and I've gotten good results.[/quote]
William Lang also has some YT video out on exercises to improve your high range that are worth tracking down.
</QUOTE>
I'll check out those as well!
Peter Steiner has a great high range video on YouTube, and you can play along with it. I've been using it and I've gotten good results.[/quote]
William Lang also has some YT video out on exercises to improve your high range that are worth tracking down.
</QUOTE>
I'll check out those as well!