If folks think Yamahas are a bit "sterile", which brand is "the next step up"?
- davdud101
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Dec 06, 2023
I'd consider myself a bit of a die-hard Yamaha guy. My first upgrade from my dad's Olds Ambassador was a 354. I've passed through probably five or six 354s, 352s, and 200ADs over the past 15 years. My trumpet is a Xeno 8335, incredible horn, my large bore is a 548G (though I just about never play large bore except to stand in for bass). I haven't played a ton of different horns, but even after spending months on my 2BL, I still feel that I just get that flexibility, ease in the high register, and rich warm tone on a 200AD that I don't get on the King.
However, there seems to be a trend among brass guys to say that Yamaha is a bit "sterile", lacks character, etc. and of course that they're reputable for consistency and just being *clean* and straightforward. I've even heard people say that they've really never made a "bad" horn.
So who's the next step up from a Yamaha? What necessarily makes, say 691 or 891 "better" than a 354? I'd say I've felt a marked difference between a 2335 trumpet and my previous 5335, and then going from my 5 to my 8335. But I was genuinely surprised at how much I like a 354 or 200AD over my 2BL.
However, there seems to be a trend among brass guys to say that Yamaha is a bit "sterile", lacks character, etc. and of course that they're reputable for consistency and just being *clean* and straightforward. I've even heard people say that they've really never made a "bad" horn.
So who's the next step up from a Yamaha? What necessarily makes, say 691 or 891 "better" than a 354? I'd say I've felt a marked difference between a 2335 trumpet and my previous 5335, and then going from my 5 to my 8335. But I was genuinely surprised at how much I like a 354 or 200AD over my 2BL.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I don't think there is a "step up". It's just different for different people. I prefer the older Yamaha's from the 90's over the new Xenos. Maybe that's the step up.
- TromboneSam
- Posts: 223
- Joined: Jul 30, 2018
As far as differences between student and pro model yamahas (which is similar for most companies that offer both):
Bells on the pro horns will be thinner and lighter than the student models, so they’ll resonate quicker but be more prone to dents/dings.
Leadpipes on the pro models will likely be better than the student models.
Slides on the pro models will probably be lighter, or at least have an option to get a lightweight vs normal weight slide. 891 slides are very light as-is if memory serves.
Bells on the pro horns will be thinner and lighter than the student models, so they’ll resonate quicker but be more prone to dents/dings.
Leadpipes on the pro models will likely be better than the student models.
Slides on the pro models will probably be lighter, or at least have an option to get a lightweight vs normal weight slide. 891 slides are very light as-is if memory serves.
- davdud101
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Dec 06, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]I don't think there is a "step up". It's just different for different people. I prefer the older Yamaha's from the 90's over the new Xenos. Maybe that's the step up.[/quote]
That's what I figured. What about those older models do you prefer? Have you tried any of the older ones like 70s -80s pro models?
That's what I figured. What about those older models do you prefer? Have you tried any of the older ones like 70s -80s pro models?
- UATrombone
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Sep 15, 2024
I've tried 682G when it was introduced in the late 80's.
It's large bore horn with F-attachment.
Very good and responsive, well made.
6xx were Yamaha's top pro-line models for international market (8XX were for Japanese market only before Xeno).
In 6-serie they've offered full line of trombones from alto to bass.
It's large bore horn with F-attachment.
Very good and responsive, well made.
6xx were Yamaha's top pro-line models for international market (8XX were for Japanese market only before Xeno).
In 6-serie they've offered full line of trombones from alto to bass.
- davdud101
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Dec 06, 2023
I would say those are major things I noticed when playing my 2BL compared to any student Yamaha. Extremely light weight bell and slide, more options for tone and response with different leadpipes. Very fast response and easily to play fast on.
I know that particular conversation is very well-trodden, and I guess I need to play a wider variety of horns to really grasp it.
[quote="TromboneSam"]As far as differences between student and pro model yamahas (which is similar for most companies that offer both):
Bells on the pro horns will be thinner and lighter than the student models, so they’ll resonate quicker but be more prone to dents/dings.
Leadpipes on the pro models will likely be better than the student models.
Slides on the pro models will probably be lighter, or at least have an option to get a lightweight vs normal weight slide. 891 slides are very light as-is if memory serves.[/quote]
I know that particular conversation is very well-trodden, and I guess I need to play a wider variety of horns to really grasp it.
[quote="TromboneSam"]As far as differences between student and pro model yamahas (which is similar for most companies that offer both):
Bells on the pro horns will be thinner and lighter than the student models, so they’ll resonate quicker but be more prone to dents/dings.
Leadpipes on the pro models will likely be better than the student models.
Slides on the pro models will probably be lighter, or at least have an option to get a lightweight vs normal weight slide. 891 slides are very light as-is if memory serves.[/quote]
- davdud101
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Dec 06, 2023
[quote="Burgerbob"]Try a normal 2B.[/quote]
I actually really wanted one. I have my horn money locked up in my Jiggs. The way people talk about the standard 2B tells me it'll be a lot more like what I want than the Jiggs. I'll try to find one
I actually really wanted one. I have my horn money locked up in my Jiggs. The way people talk about the standard 2B tells me it'll be a lot more like what I want than the Jiggs. I'll try to find one
- RJMason
- Posts: 390
- Joined: Jun 05, 2018
Yamahas are great. In terms of $/playability, probably the best modern horns out there. Vintage horns in quality condition are becoming scarce and overpriced. Boutique makers charge a fortune and still can't get it right half the time. Yamaha sits in the middle. And most days that's where I want to be. Try an 897!!!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="davdud101"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="273730" time="1745166658" user_id="3642">
I don't think there is a "step up". It's just different for different people. I prefer the older Yamaha's from the 90's over the new Xenos. Maybe that's the step up.[/quote]
That's what I figured. What about those older models do you prefer? Have you tried any of the older ones like 70s -80s pro models?
</QUOTE>
The one I played was much lighter in the bell, lighter bracing in the hand slide, unsoldered bell. So it played much more responsively and "alive". I think it was the 648R. The Xenos just "go". On/off. And I don't get the feedback that I look for when I'm playing, from the horn. If that makes sense.
I feel like the old Yamahas were attempts to make better Conn style horns, and the Xenos are trying to make better Bach style horns.
I don't think there is a "step up". It's just different for different people. I prefer the older Yamaha's from the 90's over the new Xenos. Maybe that's the step up.[/quote]
That's what I figured. What about those older models do you prefer? Have you tried any of the older ones like 70s -80s pro models?
</QUOTE>
The one I played was much lighter in the bell, lighter bracing in the hand slide, unsoldered bell. So it played much more responsively and "alive". I think it was the 648R. The Xenos just "go". On/off. And I don't get the feedback that I look for when I'm playing, from the horn. If that makes sense.
I feel like the old Yamahas were attempts to make better Conn style horns, and the Xenos are trying to make better Bach style horns.
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]I feel like the old Yamahas were attempts to make better Conn style horns, and the Xenos are trying to make better Bach style horns.[/quote]
I have similar observation, but I think there is a difference in local sound concept involved. Original Yamahas seems to follow the old-school sound concept of Japanese wind bands, which emphasize warmness and lightness. The director of a community band I was in like to say “let the sound float”, that kind of lightness. Also they are probably designed to be easy to play to cater to school bands, the culture of which has been extremely strong in Japan.
However, orchestra players, who had more contact with “western” sound concept, might prefer heavier sound of Bach-type horns, and Yamaha also tried to expand their market, so the Xeno line was born: heavy horn with more “punchy” sound.
Not sure about the Z line and other medium/small bore horns since I don’t have much experience on them.
If one wants a new “original” Yanaha, the choices are YSL-820GII, YSL-823G/GD, and to some extent the YSL-825. Unfortunately the 820GII and 823G seem to be JDM only, while the 825 is exported, at least to Thailand. For bass the choice is only the YBL-620G.
I have similar observation, but I think there is a difference in local sound concept involved. Original Yamahas seems to follow the old-school sound concept of Japanese wind bands, which emphasize warmness and lightness. The director of a community band I was in like to say “let the sound float”, that kind of lightness. Also they are probably designed to be easy to play to cater to school bands, the culture of which has been extremely strong in Japan.
However, orchestra players, who had more contact with “western” sound concept, might prefer heavier sound of Bach-type horns, and Yamaha also tried to expand their market, so the Xeno line was born: heavy horn with more “punchy” sound.
Not sure about the Z line and other medium/small bore horns since I don’t have much experience on them.
If one wants a new “original” Yanaha, the choices are YSL-820GII, YSL-823G/GD, and to some extent the YSL-825. Unfortunately the 820GII and 823G seem to be JDM only, while the 825 is exported, at least to Thailand. For bass the choice is only the YBL-620G.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The 825 felt to me to be pretty similar to the other new Xenos when I tried it.
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]The 825 felt to me to be pretty similar to the other new Xenos when I tried it.[/quote]
For me it is more open and brighter. But yes, the sound and the feelings is still “heavier” and “thicker”, closer to the Xeno side, than the 820GII or 823G.
For me it is more open and brighter. But yes, the sound and the feelings is still “heavier” and “thicker”, closer to the Xeno side, than the 820GII or 823G.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
As for the "sterile" part of the question, vintage Conns especially and maybe even Bachs and Getzens are generally not sterile. It's just something about the feel. Among more modern horns, I'd have to say that Rath has a nice feel. To me, Shires is as lifeless as Yamaha. I've played Yamaha that were "nice", but certainly not inspiring. Elkie 88h makes you want to play it. Yamaha 356, for example, also plays well, but it doesn't reward you for what you put into it. It's definitely a subjective thing.
King has an entirely different vibe. Bright and punchy, a bit thinner to me. King sound works in certain situations. I grew up on old Conns, and just love that feel. It's not a value judgment on people who like Yammies, it's just a personal preference. Lots of players do great things on Yamaha horns.
King has an entirely different vibe. Bright and punchy, a bit thinner to me. King sound works in certain situations. I grew up on old Conns, and just love that feel. It's not a value judgment on people who like Yammies, it's just a personal preference. Lots of players do great things on Yamaha horns.
- LetItSlide
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Sep 01, 2022
My 891Z has that sterile thing going on. An offsetting attribute is a stellar slide. It’s good for clean, focused, subdued playing. Today I alternated between this horn and a King 3B (yellow brass bell and standard weight slide). On the outside they look like they must be very similar horns, but the King feels alive when I play it. I can feel it vibrate in my hands. The Yamaha doesn’t give that experience at all, but still it’s a pleasure to play.
- lmalewic
- Posts: 124
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
The interesting thing is that I have never found any Yamahas I played to be sterile. What I found is that they allow me to put my own personality into the horn as opposed to making me want to play a certain way. I can play aggressive lead or a soft ballad and the horn will allow me to do it as well as blending in well with any big band section. (Speaking specifically to their small bore horns). I will say that the new cut bell horns (I have a 891ZD) do have more core and presence to the sound which I like. Also, full disclosure, I was never a fan of the leadpipes that came with the small bore horns and getting a custom one from O’Malley Brass fixed that for me immediately and made the horn even better to play than it was before.
As far as going from a 300 to a 800 series there is a large jump in craftsmanship and playability. Yamaha trombones are still the best as far as cost/playability. Most boutique small bore trombones cost a lot more.
As far as going from a 300 to a 800 series there is a large jump in craftsmanship and playability. Yamaha trombones are still the best as far as cost/playability. Most boutique small bore trombones cost a lot more.
- nateaff
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Jan 23, 2024
I think Yamahas really only have that reputation from the one piece Xeno bells, which are very very good (some claim to say there's a dud once in a while, I haven't played any bad ones) but don't have the best feedback to the player, so you're not getting the full sound spectrum that's in front of the bell.
The problem of being "boring" doesn't really exist imo with any of the 600 series two piece bells. Plus I think some people enjoy a horn with lots of quirks and Yamahas (excluding vintage) tend to be more or less quirk free.
The problem of being "boring" doesn't really exist imo with any of the 600 series two piece bells. Plus I think some people enjoy a horn with lots of quirks and Yamahas (excluding vintage) tend to be more or less quirk free.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="nateaff"]I think Yamahas really only have that reputation from the one piece Xeno bells, which are very very good (some claim to say there's a dud once in a while, I haven't played any bad ones) but don't have the best feedback to the player, so you're not getting the full sound spectrum that's in front of the bell.
The problem of being "boring" doesn't really exist imo with any of the 600 series two piece bells. Plus I think some people enjoy a horn with lots of quirks and Yamahas (excluding vintage) tend to be more or less quirk free.[/quote]
All of the 200,300 and 400s I've tried have had that dull response. 251, 350c, 355, 356, 455, 456. I have never played an 800 besides the 891z (which I really liked), and it was a contender for my 508 bore (wound up with a Getzen 3508). I played a couple 600 (612, 613g?) basses, but it was brief. Couldn't have been too good, since I didn't keep them. It's not quirks that I like, it's character in the sound and response. I'll put up with tuning quirks and resonances in the bell to get that character.
The problem of being "boring" doesn't really exist imo with any of the 600 series two piece bells. Plus I think some people enjoy a horn with lots of quirks and Yamahas (excluding vintage) tend to be more or less quirk free.[/quote]
All of the 200,300 and 400s I've tried have had that dull response. 251, 350c, 355, 356, 455, 456. I have never played an 800 besides the 891z (which I really liked), and it was a contender for my 508 bore (wound up with a Getzen 3508). I played a couple 600 (612, 613g?) basses, but it was brief. Couldn't have been too good, since I didn't keep them. It's not quirks that I like, it's character in the sound and response. I'll put up with tuning quirks and resonances in the bell to get that character.
- MrKirk
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Mar 02, 2025
My opinion on Yamaha Xeno is they are called sterile because they lack character or overtones. That being said, very well made instruments and they play well. If I was to get a Xeno it would be a large bore tenor with F attachment and gold brass to add some character.