Through my time browsing the internet, I can't help but wonder where many famous performers' instruments are today.

Take [url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://syncopatedtimes.com/wp-content/ ... -Kings.png">https://syncopatedtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/13-Three-Kings.png</LINK_TEXT>, for instance, purely because we can at least narrow down that they're King trombones.

Surely, when Tizol, Jackson, and Britt Woodman all died, their horns weren't immediately destroyed, right? I just find it interesting to think that there are probably some people out there owning or playing instruments that were played in bands as famous as the Ellington Orchestra.

I know that some people's instruments were saved, like how Miles Davis's Trumpet and Lester Young's sax are on display at Rutgers, and that Glenn Miller's trombone is still around (and gets PLAYED).

Does anyone know anything that might happen to instruments like those if they don't go in a museum? Or are they just lost to time like any other old horn?

I went to the Smithsonian years ago and Fred Wesley's Bach 36 was in a glass case, as well as one of Miles Davis' trumpets.

A surprising amount of "famous" instruments end up getting sold on Noah Gladstone's Brass Ark site.

They generally lose their provenance after two or three owners...

I think Jack Teagarden's horns are in a small museum his family runs dedicated to him.

One of my associates (who is not a Chat member) knows the current owner (who is not a trombone player) of Carl Fontana's Williams 6, but has so far been unsuccessful in his attempts to acquire it. Fingers crossed.

“Big Chief” Russell Moore’s trombone is in the Musical Instrument Museum of Phoenix AZ. They also have collections donated by various other brass players like Ronald Romm, Mike Vax, etc. Doug Yeo wrote an article about Russell Moore a while back. I think it’s in the ITA Journal somewhere…

https://mim.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Chief_Russell_Moore

A member here owns Slyde Hyde’s Williams 6. I was able to acquire his 8.

I used to own the trombone Nils Landgren played before he became a Yamaha artist.

It was a Bach LT12G and played fantastic.

I regret selling it when I became a Rath artist :???: :amazed:

However I now own and play a Bach LT6 that belonged to a renowned and highly respected trombonist over here in the UK. <EMOJI seq="1f929" tseq="1f929">🤩</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f60e" tseq="1f60e">😎</EMOJI>

Where is Bill Watrous’ 1940 New York Bach 16 now-a-days?

[quote="BrianJohnston"]Where is Bill Watrous’ 1940 New York Bach 16 now-a-days?[/quote]

His wife Marianne still has it I believe!

I have a friend that has one of JJ`s horns

2B slide with a 2B, 3B & 4B bell

Here's a great example of a famous instrument:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://reverb.com/item/75283444-histor ... lkhorn-mpc">https://reverb.com/item/75283444-historic-1920-f-e-olds-trombone-famously-owned-the-harmonian-used-in-1920-30-s-ben-selven-orchestra-excellent-tech-serviced-w-org-case-elkhorn-mpc</LINK_TEXT>

The widely celebrated "CHARLES BUTTERFIELD IN THE BEN SELVIN ORSHESTRA."

I can't help wondering where Rosolino's horns went. FYI: I have tried searching the interwebznet-o-thingy to no real avail.

Anybody knows anything?

[quote="JTeagarden"]Here's a great example of a famous instrument:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://reverb.com/item/75283444-histor ... lkhorn-mpc">https://reverb.com/item/75283444-historic-1920-f-e-olds-trombone-famously-owned-the-harmonian-used-in-1920-30-s-ben-selven-orchestra-excellent-tech-serviced-w-org-case-elkhorn-mpc</LINK_TEXT>

The widely celebrated "CHARLES BUTTERFIELD IN THE BEN SELVIN ORSHESTRA."[/quote]

That could be a very nice horn, but the provenance comes out a little shaky. It's been years and years since I played an Olds, and I have never in person seen and played one with TIS.

[quote="Digidog"]<QUOTE author="JTeagarden" post_id="275041" time="1746470926" user_id="19182">
Here's a great example of a famous instrument:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://reverb.com/item/75283444-histor ... lkhorn-mpc">https://reverb.com/item/75283444-historic-1920-f-e-olds-trombone-famously-owned-the-harmonian-used-in-1920-30-s-ben-selven-orchestra-excellent-tech-serviced-w-org-case-elkhorn-mpc</LINK_TEXT>

The widely celebrated "CHARLES BUTTERFIELD IN THE BEN SELVIN ORSHESTRA."[/quote]

That could be a very nice horn, but the provenance comes out a little shaky. It's been years and years since I played an Olds, and I have never in person seen and played one with TIS.
</QUOTE>

If Charles Butterfield is famous, then everyone who ever earned a dime playing trombone is famous ...

It is from the right era, but the amount of time you'd need as its proud owner to decribe just why this horn is quasi-famous kind of contradicts the whole idea of fame.

I stopped at a garage sale here in Santa Fe last weekend and asked the seller if he had any vinyl LP's he'd like to sell. He went to the back of the garage and pulled out a couple of boxes that contained quite a few recordings of trombone players and trombone music. We struck up a conversation, and I soon learned that he had been a pro commercial player in LA. Then he asked me, "Would you like to see a very special horn?"

We walked back to his studio, and sitting on a stand, next to it's original case, was the King 3BF that was owned and played by Mic Gillette from Tower of Power.

The serendipitous nature of this little city never ceases to amaze me.

I remember when that horn was on eBay. I think it sold for something like $1300.

Wow! Mick Gillete! Heard him play with TOP from spit valve distance at Demitrios years back. Incredible volume and gorgeous in tune playing on trombone and trumpet.

I've been thinking about the topic of rare instruments, and I suppose this could also apply to famous ones. As an active player, I often find myself torn when it comes to modifying an instrument that's truly unique.

For example, I own a Minick Contrabass in G—one of only six ever made. Part of me would love to experiment with some custom modifications to explore its full potential. But at the same time, I feel a strong sense of responsibility to preserve it in its original form, out of respect for its rarity and craftsmanship.

It's a tough balance between honoring the instrument’s legacy and wanting to make it truly my own.

[quote="MahlerMusic"]I've been thinking about the topic of rare instruments, and I suppose this could also apply to famous ones. As an active player, I often find myself torn when it comes to modifying an instrument that's truly unique.

For example, I own a Minick Contrabass in G—one of only six ever made. Part of me would love to experiment with some custom modifications to explore its full potential. But at the same time, I feel a strong sense of responsibility to preserve it in its original form, out of respect for its rarity and craftsmanship.

It's a tough balance between honoring the instrument’s legacy and wanting to make it truly my own.[/quote]
Yes. Difficult balance. Just remember that every Stradivarius violin has been completely disassembled and had the neck permanently modified. If they can do it to those, surely we can alter a lowly trombone. That said, I try to make sure all my mods are reversible.

Cheers,

Andy

A friend who was a researcher for the Moravian Music Foundation sent me this years ago.

Thought you’d be interested and entertained by this collection of stories and blogs! J

Turns out Elgar also learned to play the trombone while in his mid-forties. Hopefully my playing

doesn’t cause anyone to laugh the way Elgar’s did!

Composers' trombones played again

Trombones belonging to two of England's most famous composers are to be played again years after

their owners' deaths.

The trombones, which belonged to Edward Elgar and Gustav Holst, are being restored at a small factory in Honley,

West Yorkshire.

Elgar and Holst both died in 1934 and their instruments had been in a museum at the Royal College of Music.

To mark the 75th anniversary of their deaths a professional trombonist is recording with the instruments.

Trombonist Sue Addison specialises in playing historical music on authentic instruments of the age, and said the

trombones were a pleasure to play.

"They allow you to play with lots of different colour, they just sing", she said.

She approached the Royal College of Music about loaning the instruments when she saw them in the museum.

She said: "They're not leaving my sight. They're very well insured and secured. They're little gems."

Brass specialist Michael Rath said restoring the instruments in his shop was the highlight of his career.

Years in a museum has left the trombones with "all sorts of horrible gunk inside them", he said.

Before becoming a music teacher and composer, Holst, who was from Cheltenham, had been a professional

trombonist. He went on to write The Planets Suite.

Born near Worcester, Elgar is best known for the Pomp and Circumstance marches, which include Proms favourite

Land of Hope and Glory.

Story from BBC NEWS:

<LINK_TEXT text="http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/u ... 153504.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/8153504.stm</LINK_TEXT>

(You can hear one of these trombones being played on a video linked to this BBC story.)

Published: 2009/07/16 11:05:48 GMT

© BBC MMIX

1 of 2 11/30/2009 06:10 PM

Elgar's and Holst's trombones being restored near (Moravian site) Fulnec...

November 20, 2009

Great composer, shame he couldn't play

By Arifa Akbar, Arts Correspondent

Letter uncovered in museum reveals how Edward Elgar was so bad at the trombone it made

people laugh

He is one of the world's most eminent composers, who cemented his reputation at the vanguard of the

English Romantic movement with compositions such as the Enigma Variations and the Pomp and

Circumstance marches.

But Edward Elgar was also a terrible trombone player, it has now transpired, even though he wrote the most

beautiful melodies for the instrument in his compositions.

His skills were so poor that when the composer from Worcester started playing a specially inscribed

trombone for a dear friend, she ran out of the room in a fit of hysterical laughter, leaving the composer

swearing in frustration.

Sue Addison, the principal trombonist for the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (OAE), who has been

researching Elgar's trombone which is kept at the Royal College of Music, discovered a revealing letter

written by his friend, Dora Penny, who often went to Elgar's home to listen to his compositions, and on whom

he based a character in Enigma Variations.

The letter, which is only four lines long, recounted a comical incident in which Elgar revealed himself to be

disastrous on the instrument. It read:

"On one occasion, he [Elgar] got up and fetched a trombone that was

standing in a corner and began trying to play passages in the score. He didn't do very well and often played

a note higher or lower than the one he wanted... and as he swore every time that happened, I got into such a

state of hysterics that I didn't know what to do. Then he turned to me [and said]: 'How do you expect me to

play this dodgasted thing if you laugh?'

"I went out of the room as quickly as I could and sat on the stairs, clinging to the banisters 'til the pain eased

but it was no good. I couldn't stop there as he went on making comic noises, so I went downstairs out of

earshot for a bit." The letter had been archived at the Elgar Birthplace Museum in Worcester but had not been noticed until

now.

In the course of her research, Ms Addison also found that he took up the instrument at the age of 43, not as

a young boy as had been previously believed.

The confusion may have arisen from an inscription on the bell of the trombone, which bears Elgar's name as

well as the date 1875, which was assumed to be when he started playing the instrument, at 18 years of age.

But an admission Elgar made in 1900 proves it lay untouched for decades.

Ms Addison said: "Elgar wrote hundreds of letters to his publisher, Jaegar, discussing changes to his work,

and in one letter dated 1900, when he was writing The Dream of Gerontius, he writes a PS which said 'I'm

learning the trombone', and he drew a sketch of himself playing it by the side of the letter. He later said he

wasn't sure whether he was worse on the typewriter or the trombone."

The instrument was given by Elgar to the YMCA's Music Section in Worcester when they appealed for

instruments in 1918 to send off to British troops abroad to raise morale. Elgar, then 63, wrote: "Why should I

keep it for sentiment when the 'boys' can put it to use?"

It went "missing in action" until it was found at the Ealing Branch of the YMCA in 1934 following a series of

adverts to locate it. The YMCA then donated the trombone to the Royal College of Music.

Ms Addison said she originally set out to discover if Elgar ever played his trombone publicly, as he is known

to have done with the violin, organ, piano and bassoon. She will now play the composer's trombone in a

performance by the OAE of The Dream of Gerontius at the Royal Festival Hall next Tuesday - the first time it

has been played in a concert since Elgar's death in 1934. The OAE performance in London, and later in

Birmingham Town Hall, will be a rare opportunity to hear the piece performed on original instruments with the

same pitch as Elgar would have used.

<LINK_TEXT text="HTTP://WWW.INDEPENDENT.CO.UK/ARTS-ENTER ... E-HE-COULD">HTTP://WWW.INDEPENDENT.CO.UK/ARTS-ENTERTAINMENT/CLASSICAL/NEWS/GREAT-COMPOSER-SHAME-HE-COULD</LINK_TEXT>

2 of 2 11/30/2009 06:10 PM

[quote="heldenbone"]A friend who was a researcher for the Moravian Music Foundation sent me this years ago.

<QUOTE>
Thought you’d be interested and entertained by this collection of stories and blogs! J

Turns out Elgar also learned to play the trombone while in his mid-forties. Hopefully my playing

doesn’t cause anyone to laugh the way Elgar’s did!

Composers' trombones played again

Trombones belonging to two of England's most famous composers are to be played again years after

their owners' deaths.

The trombones, which belonged to Edward Elgar and Gustav Holst, are being restored at a small factory in Honley,

West Yorkshire.

Elgar and Holst both died in 1934 and their instruments had been in a museum at the Royal College of Music.

To mark the 75th anniversary of their deaths a professional trombonist is recording with the instruments.

Trombonist Sue Addison specialises in playing historical music on authentic instruments of the age, and said the

trombones were a pleasure to play.

"They allow you to play with lots of different colour, they just sing", she said.

She approached the Royal College of Music about loaning the instruments when she saw them in the museum.

She said: "They're not leaving my sight. They're very well insured and secured. They're little gems."

Brass specialist Michael Rath said restoring the instruments in his shop was the highlight of his career.

Years in a museum has left the trombones with "all sorts of horrible gunk inside them", he said.

Before becoming a music teacher and composer, Holst, who was from Cheltenham, had been a professional

trombonist. He went on to write The Planets Suite.

Born near Worcester, Elgar is best known for the Pomp and Circumstance marches, which include Proms favourite

Land of Hope and Glory.

Story from BBC NEWS:

<LINK_TEXT text="http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/u ... 153504.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/8153504.stm</LINK_TEXT>

(You can hear one of these trombones being played on a video linked to this BBC story.)

Published: 2009/07/16 11:05:48 GMT

© BBC MMIX

1 of 2 11/30/2009 06:10 PM

Elgar's and Holst's trombones being restored near (Moravian site) Fulnec...

November 20, 2009

Great composer, shame he couldn't play

By Arifa Akbar, Arts Correspondent

Letter uncovered in museum reveals how Edward Elgar was so bad at the trombone it made

people laugh

He is one of the world's most eminent composers, who cemented his reputation at the vanguard of the

English Romantic movement with compositions such as the Enigma Variations and the Pomp and

Circumstance marches.

But Edward Elgar was also a terrible trombone player, it has now transpired, even though he wrote the most

beautiful melodies for the instrument in his compositions.

His skills were so poor that when the composer from Worcester started playing a specially inscribed

trombone for a dear friend, she ran out of the room in a fit of hysterical laughter, leaving the composer

swearing in frustration.

Sue Addison, the principal trombonist for the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (OAE), who has been

researching Elgar's trombone which is kept at the Royal College of Music, discovered a revealing letter

written by his friend, Dora Penny, who often went to Elgar's home to listen to his compositions, and on whom

he based a character in Enigma Variations.

The letter, which is only four lines long, recounted a comical incident in which Elgar revealed himself to be

disastrous on the instrument. It read:

"On one occasion, he [Elgar] got up and fetched a trombone that was

standing in a corner and began trying to play passages in the score. He didn't do very well and often played

a note higher or lower than the one he wanted... and as he swore every time that happened, I got into such a

state of hysterics that I didn't know what to do. Then he turned to me [and said]: 'How do you expect me to

play this dodgasted thing if you laugh?'

"I went out of the room as quickly as I could and sat on the stairs, clinging to the banisters 'til the pain eased

but it was no good. I couldn't stop there as he went on making comic noises, so I went downstairs out of

earshot for a bit." The letter had been archived at the Elgar Birthplace Museum in Worcester but had not been noticed until

now.

In the course of her research, Ms Addison also found that he took up the instrument at the age of 43, not as

a young boy as had been previously believed.

The confusion may have arisen from an inscription on the bell of the trombone, which bears Elgar's name as

well as the date 1875, which was assumed to be when he started playing the instrument, at 18 years of age.

But an admission Elgar made in 1900 proves it lay untouched for decades.

Ms Addison said: "Elgar wrote hundreds of letters to his publisher, Jaegar, discussing changes to his work,

and in one letter dated 1900, when he was writing The Dream of Gerontius, he writes a PS which said 'I'm

learning the trombone', and he drew a sketch of himself playing it by the side of the letter. He later said he

wasn't sure whether he was worse on the typewriter or the trombone."

The instrument was given by Elgar to the YMCA's Music Section in Worcester when they appealed for

instruments in 1918 to send off to British troops abroad to raise morale. Elgar, then 63, wrote: "Why should I

keep it for sentiment when the 'boys' can put it to use?"

It went "missing in action" until it was found at the Ealing Branch of the YMCA in 1934 following a series of

adverts to locate it. The YMCA then donated the trombone to the Royal College of Music.

Ms Addison said she originally set out to discover if Elgar ever played his trombone publicly, as he is known

to have done with the violin, organ, piano and bassoon. She will now play the composer's trombone in a

performance by the OAE of The Dream of Gerontius at the Royal Festival Hall next Tuesday - the first time it

has been played in a concert since Elgar's death in 1934. The OAE performance in London, and later in

Birmingham Town Hall, will be a rare opportunity to hear the piece performed on original instruments with the

same pitch as Elgar would have used.

<LINK_TEXT text="HTTP://WWW.INDEPENDENT.CO.UK/ARTS-ENTER ... E-HE-COULD">HTTP://WWW.INDEPENDENT.CO.UK/ARTS-ENTERTAINMENT/CLASSICAL/NEWS/GREAT-COMPOSER-SHAME-HE-COULD</LINK_TEXT>

2 of 2 11/30/2009 06:10 PM[/quote]
</QUOTE>

Sue even recorded a solo album of British music on Elgar's trombone in 2013.

If I recall correctly, she told me the instrument was interesting and an honour to play, but not a particularly good instrument.

Post by LeTromboniste » Aug 3rd, '25, 05:44

If I recall correctly, she told me the instrument was interesting and an honour to play, but not a particularly good instrument.

You wouldn't by chance recall something about the make or design of the instrument would you, on the off chance someone might want to play in a [historically/hysterically] informed manner, "just like Elgar?"

[quote="heldenbone"]<QUOTE>
Post by LeTromboniste » Aug 3rd, '25, 05:44

If I recall correctly, she told me the instrument was interesting and an honour to play, but not a particularly good instrument.[/quote]

You wouldn't by chance recall something about the make or design of the instrument would you, on the off chance someone might want to play in a [historically/hysterically] informed manner, "just like Elgar?"
</QUOTE>

I'm pretty sure it's a simple Boosey & Co., the most typical English peashooter of the time. Would be an extremely narrow bore with a very cylindrical design and small bell, much like a Courtois of the same time, and also not unlike a Conn 2H or equivalent pre-H models (although the American trombones were built heavier, from ticker brass)

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Sue even recorded a solo album of British music on Elgar's trombone in 2013.

If I recall correctly, she told me the instrument was interesting and an honour to play, but not a particularly good instrument.[/quote]

I suspect Sue was being exceptionally generous with their comment—perhaps the instrument Elgar had was even worse than the knock-off clones we see today. It’s no surprise his sound wasn’t great. Honestly, many professionals today can pick up a Yamaha student model and still outperform those of us using custom Shires or Greenhoe trombones. It seems Elgar may have been dealt a poor hand with his trombone, making it tough to shine.

I have asked before in this thread, and I'll ask again: Does anybody know where Frank Rosolino's horns went after his horrible, sad and tragic demise?

I have tried to search the wide net, but I can't find much info on the topic.

Dillon music used to have a few historical trombones. I remember Arthur Pryor's horn was on their site, and they had an early screw bell with 2 bells that belonged to Gardell Simons (large bell for orchestra, and small one for his band soloing work).

Jim Scott