Some words from Dana;

"And yeah, guilty as charged! I'm encouraging this place to become less focused on trombones and more focused on playing the trombone; which, after all, is what that equipment is for. And we already have a whole huge other section devoted exclusively to equipment. It would just be nice if, when we hear a wonderful player, we think about the player and the playing before we jump to their hardware. People work hard their whole lives to get your attention to their playing, and it's their music that excites us."

I'm using your words Dana and hope it's OK?

I asked this same question long time ago. Why don't we talk more about music? I got the answer it's more easy to talk about equipment. I don't believe that answer! If you are interested in music you talk about it. If you are interested in equipment you talk about it. My wife can talk about anything.... :biggrin:

Ok, nothing wrong about talking about equipment, I have done it a lot :shuffle: Bach Mt Vernon 1 1/2g....or old Conn trombones... :biggrin: :D We all have to find what suits us.

But I miss talking about music. And how to play this "plumber" thing. Ok, there is some of it here but often it goes into equipment. I think the most interesting thing from amateurs to the professionals is the love of music and how to play that music?

Like some question; Why is the Count Basie band so accurate in time? Why is the Chicago brass so in tune? Why is Yo-Yo Ma so fascinating and musically?

[url]https://youtu.be/d6vZx24Whjo?si=dU7vp6KElRKS3ENe

Leif

Well you can write some short replies to equipment posts that are still helpful but it's way harder to write short when it is about music and what is great about some piece of music, an orchestra or anything else.

I have the tendency to talk a lot more about music related than trombone related stuff when I meet colleagues at a gig, rehearsal or just to drink/eat. Then it's barely about equipment unless it is really a topic and we switch instruments and so on.

There's a famous quip, ascribed to many great thinkers, but which may not have made it beyond the English-speaking world...

"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture."

My own observation is that once you express an opinion about music, there will be someone who is very angry that you did.

-

[quote="robcat2075"]There's a famous quip, ascribed to many great thinkers, but which may not have made it beyond the English-speaking world...

"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture."

My own observation is that once you express an opinion about music, there will be someone who is very angry that you did.

-[/quote]

Nah, any discussion or expression can be overheated. In this forum I think it's more often about equipment. Not about music. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> When I listen music with my colleagues or friends, it's always with respect and how to discover new elements in the music. Even with my wife. But of course, in music, feelings about music is never wrong. It's just to open our eyes or ears and discover.

With equipment there seems to be more this is right and this is wrong? This is good this is bad? This is modern this is out of date? And today I think it's a lot about business? We see a lot of advertisements both here and on all social platforms. Some hidden and some very clear. I think selling trombone or related stuff is a tough business. See all the signature trombones and mouthpieces. With follow up videos.

It's business, not music.

Leif

I transitioned into teaching from a job at Shires where I was helping players choose equipment. The processes have a lot of overlap...I considered my job there as helping to free players to make the music in their imaginations, and I consider my job teaching to be the same thing.

And sometimes that means addressing the equipment. I think any teacher who never discusses equipment with students is doing them a disservice. I have sometimes suspected problems with students' instruments and asked to play on them, and I've usually been right that their valves were incredibly leaky, or their slide was barely functional, or the instrument was so dirty that it affected the sound and pitch (seriously!). And if I think a student is playing a mouthpiece that's making things more difficult for them than necessary I will tell them.

Of course, that's only part of the process with every student. I am a stickler for excellent time and pitch. For those taking auditions I try to prepare them as best I can with information about style, feedback about how clear their pitch and time are, and so on. For those playing recitals or chamber music I am always trying to encourage them to open their imaginations and play with strong musical convictions (actually, I'm doing that with orchestral excerpts too...I'm trying to do my part to make boring playing in auditions a thing of the past).

But if their equipment is holding them back, I'm going to try to do something about it.

[quote="GabrielRice"]I transitioned into teaching from a job at Shires where I was helping players choose equipment. The processes have a lot of overlap...I considered my job there as helping to free players to make the music in their imaginations, and I consider my job teaching to be the same thing.

And sometimes that means addressing the equipment. I think any teacher who never discusses equipment with students is doing them a disservice. I have sometimes suspected problems with students' instruments and asked to play on them, and I've usually been right that their valves were incredibly leaky, or their slide was barely functional, or the instrument was so dirty that it affected the sound and pitch (seriously!). And if I think a student is playing a mouthpiece that's making things more difficult for them than necessary I will tell them.

Of course, that's only part of the process with every student. I am a stickler for excellent time and pitch. For those taking auditions I try to prepare them as best I can with information about style, feedback about how clear their pitch and time are, and so on. For those playing recitals or chamber music I am always trying to encourage them to open their imaginations and play with strong musical convictions (actually, I'm doing that with orchestral excerpts too...I'm trying to do my part to make boring playing in auditions a thing of the past).

But if their equipment is holding them back, I'm going to try to do something about it.[/quote]

Gabe, I agree and I do the same as you in my teaching. Of course. Even with young kids the equipment is very important. And should have more focus. It's so important they have instruments that are easy to play, good slide. Also that they learn how to make the slide and take care of the instrument.

But there we see Gabe, I started this thread with focus on more music and how to make music....it turn into equipment. Maybe my fault because I mentioned the business of equipment. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> I want more music topics and how to become a good musician.

Leif

I'm saying I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing equipment. It's important.

I really dislike the usual implication of the saying "it's a poor carpenter who blames his tools." Every carpenter I know takes their tools very seriously, chooses them carefully, and takes excellent care of them.

[quote="GabrielRice"]I'm saying I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing equipment. It's important.

I really dislike the usual implication of the saying "it's a poor carpenter who blames his tools." Every carpenter I know takes their tools very seriously, chooses them carefully, and takes excellent care of them.[/quote]

Yes Gabe, that's true. But the interesting thing is how the carpenter use their tools.

Leif

[quote="Savio"]But there we see Gabe, I started this thread with focus on more music and how to make music....it turn into equipment.[/quote]
That may have been your intent, but what came through to me was:
[quote="Savio"]Why don't we talk more about music?[/quote]
Which has the potential to devolve into "gearhead bashing".

In my case, I don't feel I have much of value to contribute to discussions that center around playing. Take the recent thread about Polina Tarasenko. What can I add to that other than to just say "she's REALLY good"?

A thread about improving one's playing? I have very little formal training is music and zero in pedagogy, so I'm just going to stand back and "listen" to what the teachers say - though the response to that is usually "ask your teacher" (which is best response in many cases).

That said, it's a rare occasion when I start a discussion.

Hi Folks.

In my opinion , talking about music/playing is very important , of course.

Anyway , is important as well talking about embouchures , equipment , teaching , what to practice , horns , mpcs , etc . There are so many topics related to the performance.

Frankly , I do not understand why some people care so much about the things that others people like to talk about.

If one like to talk about music /playing the trombone , he may just open some thread about that , waiting for others to jump into the discussion.

If some people prefer to talk about horns/mpcs/ leadpipes , etc, let them do as they please , and do not join them , if you are not interested .

I am playing from maybe 13/14 years on the same trbn and mpc ( after a lots of tests , of course).

This equipment works at the best for me , and I am just concentrated in practice , working hard , etc.

Some of my colleagues show up almost at every gig with a new mpc, leadpipes , boosters, etc , and maybe every six months with a new horn .

So what?

Different points of wiew...

Regards

Giancarlo

I think it’s something in the way in which we communicate. I think Robcat’s quote makes sense….but I think a lot of it has to do with the limitations on language when it comes to describing expression.

It’s easy to talk about gear. It centers around specifications materials, makes…comparisons even. These are mostly easy to articulate as they require very little in the way of subjectivity.

Then we start talking about how the instrument plays…using subjective terms like dark, bright, airy, etc…but what does that really mean and how different does it sound player to player?

Then we throw in teaching, which is more structured than sound and has more well defined theory and documentation. We can go into specifics on things that are well defined with arguments that are also…well defined….

Lets talk about music…how does it make you feel, how does it move you, what do you get out of it…these are all very personal questions and are all subjective or individualistic in nature. Defining expression is similar to using words to define emotions without using other emotions in the definition. It is possible to communicate on this level, but it is difficult to reduce these things into words. It also is difficult when you see backlash for someone giving a personal opinion…cause there really isn’t a different type of opinion…on something that is based on one’s own interpretation to what they are hearing and being told it’s wrong.

Developing a forum which encourages and cultivates ideas along the lines of free expression on things which are subjective is almost the opposite of human nature given the innate predilection to compare or convert someone else to our own ideals.

In this particular topic area the posts seem weighted more around the "how to" of embouchure and practice. When equipment gets mentioned it's often along the lines of how to effectively double or what horn is appropriate for a certain style or era. To me that makes sense in teaching and learning. I don't see equipment talk over running every other topic area either.

The page has been up for some time now. A lot has been discussed. There are always new trombones and mouthpieces but there are no more Bordogni studies being written, so maybe it's a little harder to have a fresh topic about that.

As has been said above, be the change you want to see.

A final aside about talking about musicians. It is probably a better idea to talk about the less personal things about a player than our opinions about how they play. The opinions are a matter of taste only, yet could be hurtful to the third party being discussed (if they are alive and are the type to care about what a forum thinks) and definitely would just invite argument that can't be properly settled.

A problem with this kind of discussion is that much of the art of music deals with taste. And my taste is different from yours (or any body else's). I like to play the Theme and Variation solos from 125 years ago. Many people consider them kinda trite.

I can't blow a solo over changes. Can we discuss that? Not really. Blowing a good jazz solo requires understanding what the medium consists of. I can certainly try to emulate a solo by Jack Teagarden or Juan Tizol, but coming up with one on my own is a challenge. There are rules that could be followed, but I don't know how to write them down. Most of the good improvisers I know of learned by listening to great players; not by reading a book of rules.

Similarly, playing a sweet ballad with accompaniment requires making sure that you don't go crazy with rubato (drives the accompanying musicians batty) and that crescendos and decrescendos make sense. What is "sense"? We're back to "taste".

So in general it's much easier to talk about slotting with gold brass vs. yellow brass; or attacks with a long or short leadpipe. It's much more quantifiable. I think this has led to the tendency to concentrate on hardware; something we can easily describe.

[quote="GabrielRice"]I really dislike the usual implication of the saying "it's a poor carpenter who blames his tools." Every carpenter I know takes their tools very seriously, chooses them carefully, and takes excellent care of them.[/quote]

Fully agree (as both woodworker and trombonist).

A master craftsperson with only a dull knife can still produce a masterpiece, but it will require an entire lifetime of struggle. Give them a perfectly calibrated table saw and they can crank out excellent work daily.

Give us amateurs a perfectly calibrated table saw and we won't produce masterpieces (and have no right to blame the saw) but we'll do a helluva lot better than if we have a dull knife.

[quote="robcat2075"]There's a famous quip, ascribed to many great thinkers, but which may not have made it beyond the English-speaking world...

"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture."

My own observation is that once you express an opinion about music, there will be someone who is very angry that you did.

-[/quote]

There’s a futility implied by this saying: It’s pointless to talk about something that can’t be put into words. Like trying to describe a waterfall or a rainbow to a blind person. I’ve often thought and said this myself. Yet humans continue to talk about music.

We can describe music. We talk about pitch, intonation, time, rhythm, articulation, orchestration, etc. We talk about music when we teach. Teachers often say things like, “Staccato is where the notes are separated from each other. It’s like putting a little daylight between each note, or like an old kinescope.”

We also talk about how to play an instrument when we teach: hold the bow like this, allow the instrument to rest here, breathe in like this and blow out like this, form your lips like this, etc.” In this sense, we are talking about how to talk in music. It’s something akin to speech therapy: teaching a child how to say s’s and r’s correctly is similar to teaching a student to use the tongue to start notes rather than a breath attack.

We know that music is another language. It expresses emotions, and it expresses ideas in a vague, generalized way.

The written page is yet another language, just like any written form of language. It requires study to acquire the knowledge, and discipline to apply it to the instrument (our “voice,” or the spoken part of our language).

We can get into trouble when we start using metaphors to explain music… but that’s exactly the kind of thing we use in everyday life when we are trying to describe a feeling or something we see: “Play this like flakes of snow falling on a frozen pond.” “Play this like you know exactly what you want in life—maybe a person you’re attracted to—but you’ll never be able to be with them.” You get the picture. (See what I did there?)

Certainly, we all have different tastes in music, and I believe that is where conflict arises. Chacun à son goût, as the French say, or De gustibus non est disputandum, if you prefer Latin. But that’s only a reflection of preference, like chocolate vs. vanilla ice cream.

I think there’s a lot we can say about music that isn’t just equipment related, although I do enjoy some of the equipment talks.

Speaking of which: Gabe, how’s the new horn?

[quote="GabrielRice"]and play with strong musical convictions[/quote]

And this. So much this!!!

[quote="Kbiggs"]We can get into trouble when we start using metaphors to explain music[/quote]

Why? A great trombone player and teacher used to do a lot of musing online about music ALWAYS being metaphor.

And if we're talking about instrumental technique, we HAVE to think and talk in metaphors, even if they're based in a thorough understanding of anatomy. We can't see what we're doing! So much of what we do to change pitch, change timbre, articulate, happens inside our mouths. This is completely unlike many other instruments, such as piano, percussion, string instruments... So we are inevitably using our imaginations to drive the sounds.

Speaking of which: Gabe, how’s the new horn?

GREAT

Gabe and all, I'm sorry if I'm little out of tune here but my intent was to provoke a little bit. Music is of course more for listening, or for playing. And it's alot about taste, but also a lot about how to understand, a lot about maturing. Still it is the most imortant part either we play solo, orchestra, big band, jazz or classical. I know there is already a lot of music in our forum if we search for it. And yes I had my turn speaking about old Conn's and 1 1/2g :D :?

I love the read about new developments in instruments, just so sad I don't have a chance to try them.

In music I listen everything that get in my way. I'm maybe a little strange because I like everything from Billie Eilish to old renessanse music.

One example; [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_yxtaeFuEQ

Amazing isn't it. It's like she can talk with her instrument? How is it so? How to get close to this. Is it just personality, is it born with her? Is it practice? Is it learned? Is it the teacher's she had? Is it the equipment she is playing? It's probably a mix of all.

But Gabe, anyhow I was just trying to make more focus on how, instead of what....there is already a lot but maybe more? I think you all understand what I mean?

When a young player ask what mouthpiece, instrument to play, we should absolutely take it serious. It's important for all of us.

Leif

[quote="Savio"]But Gabe, anyhow I was just trying to make more focus on how, instead of what....there is already a lot but maybe more? I think you all understand what I mean?[/quote]

Of course, Leif!

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="274246" time="1745684472" user_id="172">
We can get into trouble when we start using metaphors to explain music[/quote]

Why? A great trombone player and teacher used to do a lot of musing online about music ALWAYS being metaphor.

And if we're talking about instrumental technique, we HAVE to think and talk in metaphors, even if they're based in a thorough understanding of anatomy. We can't see what we're doing! So much of what we do to change pitch, change timbre, articulate, happens inside our mouths. This is completely unlike many other instruments, such as piano, percussion, string instruments... So we are inevitably using our imaginations to drive the sounds.

</QUOTE>

Oh, I agree with you, Gabe, and I’m sure I’d agree with the individual you refer to. I’m complaining about my poor abilities as a teacher. I am often dissatisfied with my own inability to convey in words what I want to happen in music, and vice versa. And it’s only magnified when I teach.

But there are some problems. Metaphor, simile, idiom, and some other figures of speech, require a shared language, or perhaps only a shared cultural reference. Audience members with native language different from Western Europe and/or Latin languages can have difficulty understanding a native English, Spanish, French, German, etc., speaker, just as we do with their sayings, parables, etc. If the audience doesn’t have experience with the speaker’s figure of speech, it will leave the audience confused, or it will fall on deaf ears [see what I did there?].

Then there are generational difficulties. How I understand the world—my parents grew up during the Great Depression and WWII, and I grew up during the 70’s and 80’s—is very different from how my son views the world (b. 1999), and different yet again from school-age children born after 2010.

I know there are metaphors and shared stories that transcend speech and time, and are appropriate for teaching. Finding the right one for a particular scenario at that exact moment… now, that’s an art!

Haha yes...I just keep trying and let my students wonder what I'm talking about. They usually get it at some point,

[quote="Savio"]But I miss talking about music. And how to play this "plumber" thing. Ok, there is some of it here but often it goes into equipment. I think the most interesting thing from amateurs to the professionals is the love of music and how to play that music?

Leif[/quote]

Leif - your post reminded me of a chat I was having with a baritone player (English, as I am) about the differences in sound between medium bore and large bore instruments. He put me onto a recording of the CWS Band playing 'Endearing Young Charms', with Bert Sullivan playing the solo. Sullivan's crystal clear articulation was a joy to listen to! If I hadn't been told that he was playing that solo on a euphonium, I'd have sworn it was a baritone horn! But that was recorded in 1960, when British brass bands used medium bore instruments. When I compared that to the same piece played by Black Dyke Band, with the solo on euph played by one of the Childs boys, in comparison to Sullivan, it sounded fluffy and blurred - even though Black Dyke are rated as being world class, and the Childs, father and sons, are some of their star players.

What was an even bigger shock was when I played the CWS recording all the way through (not just the opening bars), and listened to the sound of the whole band, it was like going through a time warp. It flipped me back to my childhood in the East End of London. There was a Salvation Army citadel just up the road, and their band would often come around our street on Sunday morning, playing hymns, with a small choir singing.

If you'd asked me at the time what instruments they were playing, I doubt I could have told you much - the ones which most grabbed my attention were the women playing tambourines - and they were really giving it stick!

But what did stick in my memory was the bright and ringing sound of the Sally Army Band - so much so that when I heard the same sound from that CWS recording, nearly 70 years later, it flipped me right back to the early 50s. And, bear in mind, at that age, I had no musical education or training at all - yet that memory of the sound was still pin sharp.

Donkey's years later, after a lifetime convinced that, much as I loved music, I'd never be a musician, what drew me towards playing brass? Going to the Opera House in Buxton, and hearing the Fairey Engineering Band play the overture from 'The Poet and Peasant' - which blew me away . . .

And it doesn't just apply to old codgers, either. There's a video on YouTube of a baby listening to Pavarotti singing 'Nessun Dorma'. Knowing how short even children's attention span is, I wouldn't have believed that anything as long as that could hold a baby's attention - yet the child was spell-bound, from the opening bars to the dramatic finale.

Equipment and techniques can be a very complex and baffling subject, but the <I>sound</I> of music crosses all barriers, between races and even species - as can be heard on the records made by the Paul Winter Consort.

With best regards,

Jack