Thinking of trying Bass Trombone
- Jwesleym
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 01, 2024
I got back to playing about 2 years ago after taking a break for about 25yrs. I'm just getting to the point that I'm happy with my tone, but still working on range and stamina. Playing a large bore Conn 8H with a Schilke 51D.
I played trombone from 6th grade till graduating high school, then joined the Navy (hence the break).
Anyway, I learned Tuba my senior year and absolutely loved it. I'm thinking it might be time to try playing below the staff again. I would love to try a Bass Trombone.
Should I try to find a good used independent, basically so it will last me many years and can reach all of the notes that may be needed for our community band? Or, should I go a little less expensive with a single valve Bass and use it until I need to upgrade?
I'm very frugal, so I would be looking for an inexpensive way to get below the staff.
Any suggestions would be great. What am I missing?
I played trombone from 6th grade till graduating high school, then joined the Navy (hence the break).
Anyway, I learned Tuba my senior year and absolutely loved it. I'm thinking it might be time to try playing below the staff again. I would love to try a Bass Trombone.
Should I try to find a good used independent, basically so it will last me many years and can reach all of the notes that may be needed for our community band? Or, should I go a little less expensive with a single valve Bass and use it until I need to upgrade?
I'm very frugal, so I would be looking for an inexpensive way to get below the staff.
Any suggestions would be great. What am I missing?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
First, you are used to playing a straight trombone, so going directly to a double valve may be a bit of overkill.
Second, the number of times you will need a second valve to play 3rd trombone parts in Community Band can be counted on one hand. I've rarely even seen a low C in my 30 years in Community Band. If you are playing in a Jazz Band, that's another matter entirely -- most new music has many low C's and low B's and a double valve is a lifesaver.
Emory Remington used to make his students at Eastman use a large bore with F since you can use it to cover all 3 parts in band or orchestra for the most part. So upgrading to (for example) an 88H would allow you to play most of the things you would need to cover.
That said, if you really want to play bass trombone and are on a budget, there are a lot of used pro instruments out there. Dependent double valves are generally less popular and thus command lower prices. Since you don't play any, you can get used to a dependent double as easily as an independent double.
There are some Chinese made instruments that sell at very low prices that may have material or assembly issues so use caution if you go that route. The main complaint with the Chinese instrument makers is that they don't believe in Quality Control -- if it makes it to the end of the manufacturing line it's shipped. Regardless of whether it plays properly. Some of the importers of these instruments will do the quality control for you, repairing what can be repaired and scrapping what can't. They have to charge a bit more for this service, but it's definitely worth it.
If you really like playing tuba, why not just get a tuba? In my old Community Band we had 3 tubas that belonged to the band but were loaned out to players since the cost of a decent tuba can be pretty high.
Second, the number of times you will need a second valve to play 3rd trombone parts in Community Band can be counted on one hand. I've rarely even seen a low C in my 30 years in Community Band. If you are playing in a Jazz Band, that's another matter entirely -- most new music has many low C's and low B's and a double valve is a lifesaver.
Emory Remington used to make his students at Eastman use a large bore with F since you can use it to cover all 3 parts in band or orchestra for the most part. So upgrading to (for example) an 88H would allow you to play most of the things you would need to cover.
That said, if you really want to play bass trombone and are on a budget, there are a lot of used pro instruments out there. Dependent double valves are generally less popular and thus command lower prices. Since you don't play any, you can get used to a dependent double as easily as an independent double.
There are some Chinese made instruments that sell at very low prices that may have material or assembly issues so use caution if you go that route. The main complaint with the Chinese instrument makers is that they don't believe in Quality Control -- if it makes it to the end of the manufacturing line it's shipped. Regardless of whether it plays properly. Some of the importers of these instruments will do the quality control for you, repairing what can be repaired and scrapping what can't. They have to charge a bit more for this service, but it's definitely worth it.
If you really like playing tuba, why not just get a tuba? In my old Community Band we had 3 tubas that belonged to the band but were loaned out to players since the cost of a decent tuba can be pretty high.
- Jwesleym
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 01, 2024
Thanks for the reply! We do have a community jazz band occasionally, depends on number of people interested at the time.
A dependent double valve is definitely on the table, like you said learning one or the other from nothing isn't really much different. And if I ever get to the point where it is limiting me, then hopefully I will be making income from playing and can afford to get a custom or something like that (many many years down the road).
I will stay away from the Chinese instruments, in fact I'm leaning more towards Conn since it may be kind of similar to my 8H. At least I like the way it feels and plays.
Funny thing about the Tuba, the wife isn't a fan (takes up too much space in the house). And our community band is based out of the local high school, so they can't rent out instruments to us old people.
[quote="BGuttman"]First, you are used to playing a straight trombone, so going directly to a double valve may be a bit of overkill.
Second, the number of times you will need a second valve to play 3rd trombone parts in Community Band can be counted on one hand. I've rarely even seen a low C in my 30 years in Community Band. If you are playing in a Jazz Band, that's another matter entirely -- most new music has many low C's and low B's and a double valve is a lifesaver.
Emory Remington used to make his students at Eastman use a large bore with F since you can use it to cover all 3 parts in band or orchestra for the most part. So upgrading to (for example) an 88H would allow you to play most of the things you would need to cover.
That said, if you really want to play bass trombone and are on a budget, there are a lot of used pro instruments out there. Dependent double valves are generally less popular and thus command lower prices. Since you don't play any, you can get used to a dependent double as easily as an independent double.
There are some Chinese made instruments that sell at very low prices that may have material or assembly issues so use caution if you go that route. The main complaint with the Chinese instrument makers is that they don't believe in Quality Control -- if it makes it to the end of the manufacturing line it's shipped. Regardless of whether it plays properly. Some of the importers of these instruments will do the quality control for you, repairing what can be repaired and scrapping what can't. They have to charge a bit more for this service, but it's definitely worth it.
If you really like playing tuba, why not just get a tuba? In my old Community Band we had 3 tubas that belonged to the band but were loaned out to players since the cost of a decent tuba can be pretty high.[/quote]
A dependent double valve is definitely on the table, like you said learning one or the other from nothing isn't really much different. And if I ever get to the point where it is limiting me, then hopefully I will be making income from playing and can afford to get a custom or something like that (many many years down the road).
I will stay away from the Chinese instruments, in fact I'm leaning more towards Conn since it may be kind of similar to my 8H. At least I like the way it feels and plays.
Funny thing about the Tuba, the wife isn't a fan (takes up too much space in the house). And our community band is based out of the local high school, so they can't rent out instruments to us old people.
[quote="BGuttman"]First, you are used to playing a straight trombone, so going directly to a double valve may be a bit of overkill.
Second, the number of times you will need a second valve to play 3rd trombone parts in Community Band can be counted on one hand. I've rarely even seen a low C in my 30 years in Community Band. If you are playing in a Jazz Band, that's another matter entirely -- most new music has many low C's and low B's and a double valve is a lifesaver.
Emory Remington used to make his students at Eastman use a large bore with F since you can use it to cover all 3 parts in band or orchestra for the most part. So upgrading to (for example) an 88H would allow you to play most of the things you would need to cover.
That said, if you really want to play bass trombone and are on a budget, there are a lot of used pro instruments out there. Dependent double valves are generally less popular and thus command lower prices. Since you don't play any, you can get used to a dependent double as easily as an independent double.
There are some Chinese made instruments that sell at very low prices that may have material or assembly issues so use caution if you go that route. The main complaint with the Chinese instrument makers is that they don't believe in Quality Control -- if it makes it to the end of the manufacturing line it's shipped. Regardless of whether it plays properly. Some of the importers of these instruments will do the quality control for you, repairing what can be repaired and scrapping what can't. They have to charge a bit more for this service, but it's definitely worth it.
If you really like playing tuba, why not just get a tuba? In my old Community Band we had 3 tubas that belonged to the band but were loaned out to players since the cost of a decent tuba can be pretty high.[/quote]
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]Second, the number of times you will need a second valve to play 3rd trombone parts in Community Band can be counted on one hand. I've rarely even seen a low C in my 30 years in Community Band.[/quote]
I wouldn't expect to see the need for a 2nd valve in a 3rd trombone part, but that aside, and for bass trombone parts ...
This has not been my experience, but it very much depends on the particular community band. I've been avoiding community bands the last few years (after decades of playing in them -- since I was about 14) because so many of the arrangements that so many of these bands now play have only 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trombone parts (so no bass), and often only 1st and 2nd.
If you want to play bass in a community band, stick with the tuba part. Also, you may discover that trombone sections in community bands are already crowded while there is often room in the tuba section -- especially for a decent player.
Absolutely.
Emory Remington wasn't exactly a dedicated bass trombone player and didn't teach in the era of modern double valve bass trombones (he died in 1970 -- one of my close friends in high school was one of his last students at Eastman). But yeah, you can "cover" those parts with a large bore Bb/F tenor -- but it just doesn't sound like a bass trombone. So doing this depends on what you're after. Flipping that view, you can also easily play 3rd parts on a bass. So if you like the idea of bass trombone and are targeting community bands, a single-valve (smallish) bass like one of the Yamahas (or Chinese clone) might be a good choice.
Yeah, except tubas tend to be more expensive. And (even if you're hauling a bag of mutes for bass trombone in jazz band) they're more effort and require more space to haul. However, if you got a 3/4 size BBb tuba (you don't really even need a 4th valve with that), you can cover pretty much everything you'd want.
I wouldn't expect to see the need for a 2nd valve in a 3rd trombone part, but that aside, and for bass trombone parts ...
This has not been my experience, but it very much depends on the particular community band. I've been avoiding community bands the last few years (after decades of playing in them -- since I was about 14) because so many of the arrangements that so many of these bands now play have only 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trombone parts (so no bass), and often only 1st and 2nd.
If you want to play bass in a community band, stick with the tuba part. Also, you may discover that trombone sections in community bands are already crowded while there is often room in the tuba section -- especially for a decent player.
If you are playing in a Jazz Band, that's another matter entirely -- most new music has many low C's and low B's and a double valve is a lifesaver.
Absolutely.
Emory Remington used to make his students at Eastman use a large bore with F since you can use it to cover all 3 parts in band or orchestra for the most part. So upgrading to (for example) an 88H would allow you to play most of the things you would need to cover.
Emory Remington wasn't exactly a dedicated bass trombone player and didn't teach in the era of modern double valve bass trombones (he died in 1970 -- one of my close friends in high school was one of his last students at Eastman). But yeah, you can "cover" those parts with a large bore Bb/F tenor -- but it just doesn't sound like a bass trombone. So doing this depends on what you're after. Flipping that view, you can also easily play 3rd parts on a bass. So if you like the idea of bass trombone and are targeting community bands, a single-valve (smallish) bass like one of the Yamahas (or Chinese clone) might be a good choice.
If you really like playing tuba, why not just get a tuba?
Yeah, except tubas tend to be more expensive. And (even if you're hauling a bag of mutes for bass trombone in jazz band) they're more effort and require more space to haul. However, if you got a 3/4 size BBb tuba (you don't really even need a 4th valve with that), you can cover pretty much everything you'd want.
- Jwesleym
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 01, 2024
@ghmerrill
I would have to play the Tuba part. Since I've been with this group I have only seen 1 3rd trombone part that needed an F trigger to play.
I would have to play the Tuba part. Since I've been with this group I have only seen 1 3rd trombone part that needed an F trigger to play.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
So you're thinking of playing the tuba part on the bass trombone? Then you definitely need the second valve. Also, while it will be interesting and challenging, it won't (or wouldn't, from my own point of view and experience) be as much fun as just playing the tuba. And it won't fit into the ensemble sound nearly as well as the tuba -- and may prove to be often tedious and somewhat exhausting. But again, the importance of those considerations depends a lot on the particular ensemble with which you're playing, and what the parts look like.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jwesleym"]@ghmerrill
I would have to play the Tuba part.[/quote]
'Cuz that makes the tuba players SO happy.
[quote="Jwesleym"]...hopefully I will be making income from playing..[/quote]
At least around here, there are more opportunities to make money playing tuba than there are playing bass trombone. Trad jazz (aka dixieland), brass quintet, NOLA-style brass band (you'll want a sousaphone for that). Banda, if you've got the chops for it (also requires a sousaphone).
I won't offer any recommendations as far as what type of bass trombone to buy; you'll get plenty of that. What I will suggest is that you take some lessons early on so you don't develop bad habits that will cause you problems later on.
I would have to play the Tuba part.[/quote]
'Cuz that makes the tuba players SO happy.
[quote="Jwesleym"]...hopefully I will be making income from playing..[/quote]
At least around here, there are more opportunities to make money playing tuba than there are playing bass trombone. Trad jazz (aka dixieland), brass quintet, NOLA-style brass band (you'll want a sousaphone for that). Banda, if you've got the chops for it (also requires a sousaphone).
I won't offer any recommendations as far as what type of bass trombone to buy; you'll get plenty of that. What I will suggest is that you take some lessons early on so you don't develop bad habits that will cause you problems later on.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
I think if you haven't been playing and holding a double valve trombone all these years it will be a big slog to jump in now. Not that you couldn't do it, and not that you shouldn't if you are determined to do so, but know it is a much more awkward and wearisome grip than a straight trombone.
[quote="Jwesleym"]Anyway, I learned Tuba my senior year and absolutely loved it.[/quote]
If you loved tuba and are going to be playing tuba parts... why not get a tuba?
Inexpensive, not too bad tubas come up on ebay and craigslist frequently. It's not easy selling a tuba! Bad for tuba sellers... good for tuba buyers.
I got[url=https://youtu.be/Sv0qPfmqL9c]a compensating tuba for ~$450.
[quote="Jwesleym"]Anyway, I learned Tuba my senior year and absolutely loved it.[/quote]
If you loved tuba and are going to be playing tuba parts... why not get a tuba?
Inexpensive, not too bad tubas come up on ebay and craigslist frequently. It's not easy selling a tuba! Bad for tuba sellers... good for tuba buyers.
I got
- JohntheTheologian
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Apr 12, 2018
When I played bass trombone in a local jazz big band, I bought a single trigger bass-- a Yamaha 322R-- that I still have and love playing. There were only a handful of charts that a double trigger would have helped me on and I was able to work around those. One I simply marked when to pull the slide all the way out on the F attachment near the end of the piece to easily get the low B. The only issue I had was that I had to remember that the slide positions were off on the rest of the notes surrounding the B. :)
As a fellow senior citizen, you'll need to remember the additional weight a double trigger horn has. I tried a nice Benge double trigger once and it weighed a ton compared to my single trigger Yamaha. I was also completely overwhelmed with all of the options in double trigger horns and figured It was much too old to learn those new tricks!
I still play in a community band and the single trigger works great there and the bass bone sound is perfect for 3rd parts.
If you add a tenor with F attachment some day, the going back and forth between bass and tenor will be very simple. BTW, if you like the Conn sound and feel, the older Yamaha bass bones-- the 321 and 322 models-- should feel comfortable to you and are often found used.
As a fellow senior citizen, you'll need to remember the additional weight a double trigger horn has. I tried a nice Benge double trigger once and it weighed a ton compared to my single trigger Yamaha. I was also completely overwhelmed with all of the options in double trigger horns and figured It was much too old to learn those new tricks!
I still play in a community band and the single trigger works great there and the bass bone sound is perfect for 3rd parts.
If you add a tenor with F attachment some day, the going back and forth between bass and tenor will be very simple. BTW, if you like the Conn sound and feel, the older Yamaha bass bones-- the 321 and 322 models-- should feel comfortable to you and are often found used.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]It's not easy selling a tuba! Bad for tuba sellers... good for tuba buyers.[/quote]
(Partly addressed to those who might have tubas they're looking to sell ...)
This depends on how you do it. This past year I sold my Wessex Champion Eb compensating horn for the price I wanted and with absolutely no hassle. This was through Tuba Exchange, and it took around 6 months. I sold my Mack Brass compensating euph through them at the same time and it sold within about a month. Tuba Exchange handled all the packing and shipping (including the original tuba in it's monstrous case and a gig bag I threw into the deal as well), and they provide for a 30 day trial/return on their used items. My horn would have sold much faster if it were a BBb or CC since the demand for Eb compensators in the US isn't exactly high.
I'll grant you that this was a bit easier for me than for most -- since I can drive to Tuba Exchange in less than half an hour. But the process was slick and problem free. Other places (on both coasts) offer consignment sales as well, and with similar features. If you can get your instrument to one, it seems like the best way to go since they offer features of the selling process that you can't, and provide high visibility of the product on their web sites.
(Partly addressed to those who might have tubas they're looking to sell ...)
This depends on how you do it. This past year I sold my Wessex Champion Eb compensating horn for the price I wanted and with absolutely no hassle. This was through Tuba Exchange, and it took around 6 months. I sold my Mack Brass compensating euph through them at the same time and it sold within about a month. Tuba Exchange handled all the packing and shipping (including the original tuba in it's monstrous case and a gig bag I threw into the deal as well), and they provide for a 30 day trial/return on their used items. My horn would have sold much faster if it were a BBb or CC since the demand for Eb compensators in the US isn't exactly high.
I'll grant you that this was a bit easier for me than for most -- since I can drive to Tuba Exchange in less than half an hour. But the process was slick and problem free. Other places (on both coasts) offer consignment sales as well, and with similar features. If you can get your instrument to one, it seems like the best way to go since they offer features of the selling process that you can't, and provide high visibility of the product on their web sites.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]'Cuz that makes the tuba players SO happy.[/quote]
As a long time tuba player, I appreciate this observation. :lol:
As a long time tuba player, I appreciate this observation. :lol:
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
A couple of observations from a tenor player who got dragged into bass bone:
1) If you're just going to get a single valve it really doesn't matter. But you might as well just get an 88h with a 2G mouthpiece and stop worrying. If I can get away with playing a single, I can get away with using a big tenor. It will be easier in a lot of ways. One thing you can do is to get an 88h with a bigger slide (547/562 or straight 562). This allows you to get a real bass leadpipe, which will make better use of the bigger mouthpiece. The bell is still not a bass bell, but it will still allow you to play believably down to a low C.
2) You can go half way with something like a Conn 88hK, King 5b, Holton 159, Wessex Super tenor, a couple of Olds models, or a King 1480/1485. These are all F attachment horns that can be played as tenor or small bass (in order of increasing preference).
3) If you really just feel like you can't avoid it, get a single valve bass. Many people like the Yamahas, but as a Conn player, you may not like the response you get from them. Conn 72h, 71h, even 70h are good options. The Conns are nice because the slide is a little bit longer, and you have a better chance of getting a real low C. A lot of Olds big tenors/single basses get overlooked, play great, and can be had relatively inexpensively (but might have some odd quirks). Bach singles are often nice. Holton singles are probably financially in a different league.
4) If you're going to get serious about it, get a double. That would be for newer big band music, chamber music, tuba doubling (don't do it), or basically anything that regularly goes lower than a Db under the staff. It's a much bigger commitment in a lot of ways. As long as you're getting a double, you might as well get an independent. The dependent simplifies your options, but really doesn't give you anything in return. They work, and sometimes are less expensive.
No matter what you do, a good sound in the low range and facility with the trigger takes practice.
1) If you're just going to get a single valve it really doesn't matter. But you might as well just get an 88h with a 2G mouthpiece and stop worrying. If I can get away with playing a single, I can get away with using a big tenor. It will be easier in a lot of ways. One thing you can do is to get an 88h with a bigger slide (547/562 or straight 562). This allows you to get a real bass leadpipe, which will make better use of the bigger mouthpiece. The bell is still not a bass bell, but it will still allow you to play believably down to a low C.
2) You can go half way with something like a Conn 88hK, King 5b, Holton 159, Wessex Super tenor, a couple of Olds models, or a King 1480/1485. These are all F attachment horns that can be played as tenor or small bass (in order of increasing preference).
3) If you really just feel like you can't avoid it, get a single valve bass. Many people like the Yamahas, but as a Conn player, you may not like the response you get from them. Conn 72h, 71h, even 70h are good options. The Conns are nice because the slide is a little bit longer, and you have a better chance of getting a real low C. A lot of Olds big tenors/single basses get overlooked, play great, and can be had relatively inexpensively (but might have some odd quirks). Bach singles are often nice. Holton singles are probably financially in a different league.
4) If you're going to get serious about it, get a double. That would be for newer big band music, chamber music, tuba doubling (don't do it), or basically anything that regularly goes lower than a Db under the staff. It's a much bigger commitment in a lot of ways. As long as you're getting a double, you might as well get an independent. The dependent simplifies your options, but really doesn't give you anything in return. They work, and sometimes are less expensive.
No matter what you do, a good sound in the low range and facility with the trigger takes practice.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]4) If you're going to get serious about it, get a double. That would be for newer big band music, chamber music, tuba doubling (don't do it), or basically anything that regularly goes lower than a Db under the staff. It's a much bigger commitment in a lot of ways. As long as you're getting a double, you might as well get an independent. The dependent simplifies your options, but really doesn't give you anything in return. They work, and sometimes are less expensive.
No matter what you do, a good sound in the low range and facility with the trigger takes practice.[/quote]
I think this is a great summary of the major issues.
It's important to keep in mind that just because a bass trombone CAN "double" any number of instruments (tuba, euphonium, serpent, ophicleide, bassoon, Mukkinese battle-horn, ...) it doesn't follow that it SHOULD do this except in some very specific contexts.
No matter what you do, a good sound in the low range and facility with the trigger takes practice.[/quote]
I think this is a great summary of the major issues.
It's important to keep in mind that just because a bass trombone CAN "double" any number of instruments (tuba, euphonium, serpent, ophicleide, bassoon, Mukkinese battle-horn, ...) it doesn't follow that it SHOULD do this except in some very specific contexts.
- JeffBone44
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Oct 24, 2022
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="274607" time="1746103601" user_id="53">
Second, the number of times you will need a second valve to play 3rd trombone parts in Community Band can be counted on one hand. I've rarely even seen a low C in my 30 years in Community Band.[/quote]
I wouldn't expect to see the need for a 2nd valve in a 3rd trombone part, but that aside, and for bass trombone parts ...
This has not been my experience, but it very much depends on the particular community band. I've been avoiding community bands the last few years (after decades of playing in them -- since I was about 14) because so many of the arrangements that so many of these bands now play have only 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trombone parts (so no bass), and often only 1st and 2nd.
If you want to play bass in a community band, stick with the tuba part. Also, you may discover that trombone sections in community bands are already crowded while there is often room in the tuba section -- especially for a decent player.
Absolutely.
Emory Remington wasn't exactly a dedicated bass trombone player and didn't teach in the era of modern double valve bass trombones (he died in 1970 -- one of my close friends in high school was one of his last students at Eastman). But yeah, you can "cover" those parts with a large bore Bb/F tenor -- but it just doesn't sound like a bass trombone. So doing this depends on what you're after. Flipping that view, you can also easily play 3rd parts on a bass. So if you like the idea of bass trombone and are targeting community bands, a single-valve (smallish) bass like one of the Yamahas (or Chinese clone) might be a good choice.
Yeah, except tubas tend to be more expensive. And (even if you're hauling a bag of mutes for bass trombone in jazz band) they're more effort and require more space to haul. However, if you got a 3/4 size BBb tuba (you don't really even need a 4th valve with that), you can cover pretty much everything you'd want.
</QUOTE>
That's another reason why I left my community band - most of the arrangements had only 1st and 2nd trombone, no 3rd. So I would mostly wind up playing the tuba part anyway. Some of the tuba stuff gets ridiculously low, so I would take it an octave up, which sounded pretty cool when doubling with the tuba. Also, my community band had 7 trombonists at the time, including me, and half the time a tuba player wouldn't even show up for rehearsal.
Second, the number of times you will need a second valve to play 3rd trombone parts in Community Band can be counted on one hand. I've rarely even seen a low C in my 30 years in Community Band.[/quote]
I wouldn't expect to see the need for a 2nd valve in a 3rd trombone part, but that aside, and for bass trombone parts ...
This has not been my experience, but it very much depends on the particular community band. I've been avoiding community bands the last few years (after decades of playing in them -- since I was about 14) because so many of the arrangements that so many of these bands now play have only 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trombone parts (so no bass), and often only 1st and 2nd.
If you want to play bass in a community band, stick with the tuba part. Also, you may discover that trombone sections in community bands are already crowded while there is often room in the tuba section -- especially for a decent player.
If you are playing in a Jazz Band, that's another matter entirely -- most new music has many low C's and low B's and a double valve is a lifesaver.
Absolutely.
Emory Remington used to make his students at Eastman use a large bore with F since you can use it to cover all 3 parts in band or orchestra for the most part. So upgrading to (for example) an 88H would allow you to play most of the things you would need to cover.
Emory Remington wasn't exactly a dedicated bass trombone player and didn't teach in the era of modern double valve bass trombones (he died in 1970 -- one of my close friends in high school was one of his last students at Eastman). But yeah, you can "cover" those parts with a large bore Bb/F tenor -- but it just doesn't sound like a bass trombone. So doing this depends on what you're after. Flipping that view, you can also easily play 3rd parts on a bass. So if you like the idea of bass trombone and are targeting community bands, a single-valve (smallish) bass like one of the Yamahas (or Chinese clone) might be a good choice.
If you really like playing tuba, why not just get a tuba?
Yeah, except tubas tend to be more expensive. And (even if you're hauling a bag of mutes for bass trombone in jazz band) they're more effort and require more space to haul. However, if you got a 3/4 size BBb tuba (you don't really even need a 4th valve with that), you can cover pretty much everything you'd want.
</QUOTE>
That's another reason why I left my community band - most of the arrangements had only 1st and 2nd trombone, no 3rd. So I would mostly wind up playing the tuba part anyway. Some of the tuba stuff gets ridiculously low, so I would take it an octave up, which sounded pretty cool when doubling with the tuba. Also, my community band had 7 trombonists at the time, including me, and half the time a tuba player wouldn't even show up for rehearsal.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="JeffBone44"]That's another reason why I left my community band - most of the arrangements had only 1st and 2nd trombone, no 3rd.[/quote]
Been there. Did that as well. :roll:
Well, color me skeptical on that. There are passages where that can work, but generally not so much -- from an audience perspective at least.
I'm not sure what "ridiculously low" means. Obviously not ridiculously low for a tuba, but I'm not sure that I can recall tuba parts I've played in community band that I can't now play on a bass trombone (not that they ever SHOULD be played on bass trombone).
I've seen that as well -- and those kinds of phenomena often seem to appear in New Horizons bands (so not exactly normal "community" bands). In the first one of those I went to years ago, there was me and one other tuba player, and only two trombones. But a full dozen (I counted them) "baritone" players. :roll: It seems that there is an unlimited supply of elderly males who started on baritone in their middle school years, and 60 years later decide to return to it. I rapidly left that organization, despite the fact that it was being directed by a very good guy who was the band and instrumental music instructor in the private middle school where it rehearsed. I can easily imagine community bands now where it would be hard for me to show up any more than half the time as a tuba player -- but then, why participate at all? I guess, if that's the sort of organization one is playing in, then it's not unreasonable to view it as a kind of "pick-up game" that you go to every week and play whatever part you want on whatever instrument you want to bring.
In full disclosure, I did spend a year in a pretty decent community band playing the bass trombone part on a euphonium -- which generally didn't work out too badly (in a band where no one was playing a bass trombone). It was definitely better than someone playing the euphonium part on bass trombone. :) However, shortly after that I decided I really need to get a bass trombone. :shock:
Been there. Did that as well. :roll:
Some of the tuba stuff gets ridiculously low, so I would take it an octave up, which sounded pretty cool when doubling with the tuba.
Well, color me skeptical on that. There are passages where that can work, but generally not so much -- from an audience perspective at least.
I'm not sure what "ridiculously low" means. Obviously not ridiculously low for a tuba, but I'm not sure that I can recall tuba parts I've played in community band that I can't now play on a bass trombone (not that they ever SHOULD be played on bass trombone).
Also, my community band had 7 trombonists at the time, including me, and half the time a tuba player wouldn't even show up for rehearsal.
I've seen that as well -- and those kinds of phenomena often seem to appear in New Horizons bands (so not exactly normal "community" bands). In the first one of those I went to years ago, there was me and one other tuba player, and only two trombones. But a full dozen (I counted them) "baritone" players. :roll: It seems that there is an unlimited supply of elderly males who started on baritone in their middle school years, and 60 years later decide to return to it. I rapidly left that organization, despite the fact that it was being directed by a very good guy who was the band and instrumental music instructor in the private middle school where it rehearsed. I can easily imagine community bands now where it would be hard for me to show up any more than half the time as a tuba player -- but then, why participate at all? I guess, if that's the sort of organization one is playing in, then it's not unreasonable to view it as a kind of "pick-up game" that you go to every week and play whatever part you want on whatever instrument you want to bring.
In full disclosure, I did spend a year in a pretty decent community band playing the bass trombone part on a euphonium -- which generally didn't work out too badly (in a band where no one was playing a bass trombone). It was definitely better than someone playing the euphonium part on bass trombone. :) However, shortly after that I decided I really need to get a bass trombone. :shock:
- JeffBone44
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Oct 24, 2022
Well, color me skeptical on that. There are passages where that can work, but generally not so much -- from an audience perspective at least.
I'm not sure what "ridiculously low" means. Obviously not ridiculously low for a tuba, but I'm not sure that I can recall tuba parts I've played in community band that I can't now play on a bass trombone (not that they ever SHOULD be played on bass trombone).
There were times where it would make sense to double the tuba part, and other times where it wouldn't, so I used my own judgement. Also, I have a good enough ear where sometimes I would make up my own 3rd part to play when one wasn't available. The conductor never said anything about it either, so I assume it was acceptable.
As for my "ridiculously low" comment, at the time that I was in that band, my pedal register wasn't very good. But it's much stronger now and I'd be able to do a better job playing those tuba parts.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
One problem with "school band" arrangements as generally used by Community Bands is that they have some really obscene part duplication. The Euphonium part is also given to the tenor saxophone, french horn parts are often doubled in the alto saxophone, and there are often only 2 parts for the trumpets/cornets and trombones. They were designed for small ensembles, which is the situation in most Middle or High schools, especially in rural parts of the US.
If your community band is long on trombones and short on tubas, get a tuba. Playing tuba parts on a trombone is really unsatisfactory (I've done it). The trombone really doesn't support the band like a real tuba would. Mind you, I've supported a 25 piece band with an F tuba, so you can make a smaller horn go pretty far.
If your community band is long on trombones and short on tubas, get a tuba. Playing tuba parts on a trombone is really unsatisfactory (I've done it). The trombone really doesn't support the band like a real tuba would. Mind you, I've supported a 25 piece band with an F tuba, so you can make a smaller horn go pretty far.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I've spent a fair amount of time covering (not doubling - there was no tuba to double) tuba parts in concert band. I don't recall running into anything that went below F1 (i.e., "pedal F"). Of course, I didn't see a lot of Grade 5 or high music, either.
A couple of scenarios where you end up with "half-time" people. In one case, there are so many people playing the part that one develops a "it's OK, there's plenty of people on the part". On the other end of the spectrum, you have the situation where Mr. or Ms. Half-Time is the only person on the part, so there's a "half of something is better than all of nothing" sort of mindset (thus the amount of slack some conductors will give bassoon players).
[quote="ghmerrill"]It seems that there is an unlimited supply of elderly males who started on baritone in their middle school years, and 60 years later decide to return to it.[/quote]
Gary, are you sure those guys started on baritone? I expect at least some of them started on trumpet and got the "well, you can either play third trumpet or baritone" talk from their band director.
A couple of scenarios where you end up with "half-time" people. In one case, there are so many people playing the part that one develops a "it's OK, there's plenty of people on the part". On the other end of the spectrum, you have the situation where Mr. or Ms. Half-Time is the only person on the part, so there's a "half of something is better than all of nothing" sort of mindset (thus the amount of slack some conductors will give bassoon players).
[quote="ghmerrill"]It seems that there is an unlimited supply of elderly males who started on baritone in their middle school years, and 60 years later decide to return to it.[/quote]
Gary, are you sure those guys started on baritone? I expect at least some of them started on trumpet and got the "well, you can either play third trumpet or baritone" talk from their band director.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
One problem with "school band" arrangements as generally used by Community Bands is that they have some really obscene part duplication. The Euphonium part is also given to the tenor saxophone, french horn parts are often doubled in the alto saxophone, and there are often only 2 parts for the trumpets/cornets and trombones. They were designed for small ensembles, which is the situation in most Middle or High schools, especially in rural parts of the US.
If your community band is long on trombones and short on tubas, get a tuba. Playing tuba parts on a trombone is really unsatisfactory (I've done it). The trombone really doesn't support the band like a real tuba would. Mind you, I've supported a 25 piece band with an F tuba, so you can make a smaller horn go pretty far.
If your community band is long on trombones and short on tubas, get a tuba. Playing tuba parts on a trombone is really unsatisfactory (I've done it). The trombone really doesn't support the band like a real tuba would. Mind you, I've supported a 25 piece band with an F tuba, so you can make a smaller horn go pretty far.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="JeffBone44"]As for my "ridiculously low" comment, at the time that I was in that band, my pedal register wasn't very good. But it's much stronger now and I'd be able to do a better job playing those tuba parts.[/quote]
Well, if you can play the tuba parts in pieces like the Dargason movement of 2nd Suite, and Amparita Roca at tempo, you should be good.
Well, if you can play the tuba parts in pieces like the Dargason movement of 2nd Suite, and Amparita Roca at tempo, you should be good.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]Gary, are you sure those guys started on baritone? I expect at least some of them started on trumpet and got the "well, you can either play third trumpet or baritone" talk from their band director.[/quote]
Yeah, I was using "started on" in a somewhat loose sense there. (Side note: My grandson started trumpet this year in middle school, and then was asked if he'd be interested in moving to the French horn. He was thinking about it, but finally decided not to. I'm not sure why, but I'll grill him about it when I seem him in another couple of months. :) ).
Yeah, I was using "started on" in a somewhat loose sense there. (Side note: My grandson started trumpet this year in middle school, and then was asked if he'd be interested in moving to the French horn. He was thinking about it, but finally decided not to. I'm not sure why, but I'll grill him about it when I seem him in another couple of months. :) ).
- SoVTTb
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Jun 18, 2018
If you’re doing it for fun and looking forward to doubling/covering tuba material, I say get the independent bass!
The second trigger is new and interesting and it sounds like that’s part of the point, and if you’re investing in a new horn, you probably want something that’s not going to get in your way and let you do the real bass bone thing :)
You can still find used American/japanese horns for under 2000 that would keep value well if you take care of it
The second trigger is new and interesting and it sounds like that’s part of the point, and if you’re investing in a new horn, you probably want something that’s not going to get in your way and let you do the real bass bone thing :)
You can still find used American/japanese horns for under 2000 that would keep value well if you take care of it
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
[quote="Jwesleym"]I got back to playing about 2 years ago after taking a break for about 25yrs. I'm just getting to the point that I'm happy with my tone, but still working on range and stamina. Playing a large bore Conn 8H with a Schilke 51D.
I played trombone from 6th grade till graduating high school, then joined the Navy (hence the break).
Anyway, I learned Tuba my senior year and absolutely loved it. I'm thinking it might be time to try playing below the staff again. I would love to try a Bass Trombone.
Should I try to find a good used independent, basically so it will last me many years and can reach all of the notes that may be needed for our community band? Or, should I go a little less expensive with a single valve Bass and use it until I need to upgrade?
I'm very frugal, so I would be looking for an inexpensive way to get below the staff.
Any suggestions would be great. What am I missing?[/quote]
My advice is. Just try it. Bass trombone is fun to play. I love to play the single valve, but get a double valve! How to learn it Im not sure. Be open, never give up.
Leif
I played trombone from 6th grade till graduating high school, then joined the Navy (hence the break).
Anyway, I learned Tuba my senior year and absolutely loved it. I'm thinking it might be time to try playing below the staff again. I would love to try a Bass Trombone.
Should I try to find a good used independent, basically so it will last me many years and can reach all of the notes that may be needed for our community band? Or, should I go a little less expensive with a single valve Bass and use it until I need to upgrade?
I'm very frugal, so I would be looking for an inexpensive way to get below the staff.
Any suggestions would be great. What am I missing?[/quote]
My advice is. Just try it. Bass trombone is fun to play. I love to play the single valve, but get a double valve! How to learn it Im not sure. Be open, never give up.
Leif
- Jwesleym
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 01, 2024
Unfortunately at this time in my life a Tuba is out of the question. Hopefully one day. I just want to learn Bass Trombone to expand my horizons, and have fun. It is possible that I won't have an opportunity to play it in our community band in the near future as our lower brass section is small. 1 Tuba, 2 Euphoniums, 2 Trombones. But, it does fluctuate frequently. We have had a few 3rd trombone parts in the past that couldn't be played without a trigger.
Maybe a single valve bass would work for me, just to get started learning.
I can pedal on my 8H and my daughter's 4 valve euphonium, but definitely need more practice in that range.
Is Bass Trombone an exclusive club or something? Lol, a lot of people encouraging me not to try it. It is likely that I will only play it in the practice room for the first year. Also, if I play the tuba part it will likely be due to the 1 Tuba player not showing up.
I appreciate all of your advice and will take it to heart. Thank you for taking the time to educate me, a relatively novice musician.
Maybe a single valve bass would work for me, just to get started learning.
I can pedal on my 8H and my daughter's 4 valve euphonium, but definitely need more practice in that range.
Is Bass Trombone an exclusive club or something? Lol, a lot of people encouraging me not to try it. It is likely that I will only play it in the practice room for the first year. Also, if I play the tuba part it will likely be due to the 1 Tuba player not showing up.
I appreciate all of your advice and will take it to heart. Thank you for taking the time to educate me, a relatively novice musician.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Jwesleym"]Is Bass Trombone an exclusive club or something?[/quote]
No, but getting a bass trombone in order to play the tuba role in a community band probably puts you in a very narrow demographic.
No, but getting a bass trombone in order to play the tuba role in a community band probably puts you in a very narrow demographic.
- Jwesleym
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 01, 2024
Lol, touche
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="Jwesleym" post_id="274787" time="1746233102" user_id="17601">
Is Bass Trombone an exclusive club or something?[/quote]
No, but getting a bass trombone in order to play the tuba role in a community band probably puts you in a very narrow demographic.
</QUOTE>
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="Jwesleym" post_id="274787" time="1746233102" user_id="17601">
Is Bass Trombone an exclusive club or something?[/quote]
No, but getting a bass trombone in order to play the tuba role in a community band probably puts you in a very narrow demographic.
</QUOTE>
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Jwesleym"]Unfortunately at this time in my life a Tuba is out of the question. Hopefully one day. I just want to learn Bass Trombone to expand my horizons, and have fun. It is possible that I won't have an opportunity to play it in our community band in the near future as our lower brass section is small. 1 Tuba, 2 Euphoniums, 2 Trombones. But, it does fluctuate frequently. We have had a few 3rd trombone parts in the past that couldn't be played without a trigger.
Maybe a single valve bass would work for me, just to get started learning.
I can pedal on my 8H and my daughter's 4 valve euphonium, but definitely need more practice in that range.
Is Bass Trombone an exclusive club or something? Lol, a lot of people encouraging me not to try it. It is likely that I will only play it in the practice room for the first year. Also, if I play the tuba part it will likely be due to the 1 Tuba player not showing up.
I appreciate all of your advice and will take it to heart. Thank you for taking the time to educate me, a relatively novice musician.[/quote]
I think you should get a 2 valve bass trombone. If you do get into playing parts with low C and B, you're going to find the single valve is holding you back. Then you're stuck with a horn that doesn't have great resale value. Also, why can't you play the 3rd trombone part in your band? Just because a part doesn't have any "trigger notes " doesn't mean you can't play it on bass trombone.
Maybe a single valve bass would work for me, just to get started learning.
I can pedal on my 8H and my daughter's 4 valve euphonium, but definitely need more practice in that range.
Is Bass Trombone an exclusive club or something? Lol, a lot of people encouraging me not to try it. It is likely that I will only play it in the practice room for the first year. Also, if I play the tuba part it will likely be due to the 1 Tuba player not showing up.
I appreciate all of your advice and will take it to heart. Thank you for taking the time to educate me, a relatively novice musician.[/quote]
I think you should get a 2 valve bass trombone. If you do get into playing parts with low C and B, you're going to find the single valve is holding you back. Then you're stuck with a horn that doesn't have great resale value. Also, why can't you play the 3rd trombone part in your band? Just because a part doesn't have any "trigger notes " doesn't mean you can't play it on bass trombone.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
His complaint is that there aren't any 3rd trombone parts, regardless of what he will play it on.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
One of the problems here is that any concert band arrangement that doesn't have a 3rd trombone part isn't likely to have very interesting tuba or euphonium parts either. It's almost certainly going to be close to introductory middle school material. So any hand wringing about the quality or difficulty of parts, once you confront that, is probably wasted. Just pick an instrument you want to play and go play it. I get the feeling that this is the situation we're looking at here.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]His complaint is that there aren't any 3rd trombone parts, regardless of what he will play it on.[/quote]
Um, that's not what he said. He said, "I would have to play the Tuba part. Since I've been with this group I have only seen 1 3rd trombone part that needed an F trigger to play." He didn't say there WEREN'T any 3rd parts, he said they don't need a trigger. So my point was you can still play them on a bass trombone. I play lots of bass trombone parts professionally that don't have "trigger notes" in them.
Um, that's not what he said. He said, "I would have to play the Tuba part. Since I've been with this group I have only seen 1 3rd trombone part that needed an F trigger to play." He didn't say there WEREN'T any 3rd parts, he said they don't need a trigger. So my point was you can still play them on a bass trombone. I play lots of bass trombone parts professionally that don't have "trigger notes" in them.
- HappyAmateur
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Apr 11, 2025
I appreciate all the comments on this thread. I'm an adult beginner (or perhaps the right label is "trumpet convertee & comebacker"), and I'm now past the point where I know this is going to "stick" as a hobby, so I'm starting to casually look around for something with a trigger because I want to play in lower registers. Part of the reason I wanted to get a trombone is because I'm an amateur bass-baritone vocalist and I wanted a non-transposing bass-clef instrument to help reinforce pitch. For this reason, I'd (theoretically) prefer to play on an instrument that will "sing" between D2-F4 the same way my YSL354 sings for me in the octave above the staff.
If nothing else, this thread is making me rule out getting a medium-bore F, which I had been strongly leaning toward just because it seems to be the natural progression for students... but now I think I ought to jump to a large-bore so I can have a horn that will sound better in the register I really want to play in. I might struggle with getting enough air to support it at first, but it's probably the better long-term move. Am I on the right track here?
[quote="Jwesleym"]Funny thing about the Tuba, the wife isn't a fan (takes up too much space in the house).[/quote]My wife said the same thing about Euphonium for me when I wanted to get one (and of course the expense). So I got a cheap trombone which she could tolerate on both counts :) And I'm glad I did... having to find my pitch on a slide makes trombone an even better tool for pitch reinforcement. (And a cheap, non-compensating euphonium may have actually been detrimental).
[quote="JohnL"]Gary, are you sure those guys started on baritone? I expect at least some of them started on trumpet and got the "well, you can either play third trumpet or baritone" talk from their band director.[/quote]
I wish my band director would've been as straightforward with me. I did make it to 2nd trumpet in my school's top band just from sheer technical ability, but my tone/range were never good. My embouchure is better suited to a trombone mouthpiece but no one bothered to tell me that (to be fair, I'm not sure I would've listened).
If nothing else, this thread is making me rule out getting a medium-bore F, which I had been strongly leaning toward just because it seems to be the natural progression for students... but now I think I ought to jump to a large-bore so I can have a horn that will sound better in the register I really want to play in. I might struggle with getting enough air to support it at first, but it's probably the better long-term move. Am I on the right track here?
[quote="Jwesleym"]Funny thing about the Tuba, the wife isn't a fan (takes up too much space in the house).[/quote]My wife said the same thing about Euphonium for me when I wanted to get one (and of course the expense). So I got a cheap trombone which she could tolerate on both counts :) And I'm glad I did... having to find my pitch on a slide makes trombone an even better tool for pitch reinforcement. (And a cheap, non-compensating euphonium may have actually been detrimental).
[quote="JohnL"]Gary, are you sure those guys started on baritone? I expect at least some of them started on trumpet and got the "well, you can either play third trumpet or baritone" talk from their band director.[/quote]
I wish my band director would've been as straightforward with me. I did make it to 2nd trumpet in my school's top band just from sheer technical ability, but my tone/range were never good. My embouchure is better suited to a trombone mouthpiece but no one bothered to tell me that (to be fair, I'm not sure I would've listened).
- LetItSlide
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Sep 01, 2022
For singing on a trombone in the D2-F4 range, I like a Bach 42 with a 4G mouthpiece. Not everyone prefers that size mouthpiece, but for me it unlocks the sound of a Bach 42. In college I paired a 42 horn with a smaller mouthpiece, but that's because it was my only horn and I was playing lead in jazz ensemble, first part in concert band, principal in orchestra, and first part in trombone choir and various brass ensembles, plus recitals and being featured soloist with the concert band and orchestra. The 6-1/2AL allowed me to do all that with the one horn.
A bass trombone, though, is potentially more interesting and fun, depending on what you want to do. I don't think I was meant to be a bass trombonist, but when I play my Bach 50, I don't mind saying I really love the sound I hear, and I enjoy the sensation of the free-blowing horn.
A bass trombone, though, is potentially more interesting and fun, depending on what you want to do. I don't think I was meant to be a bass trombonist, but when I play my Bach 50, I don't mind saying I really love the sound I hear, and I enjoy the sensation of the free-blowing horn.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Jwesleym"]Funny thing about the Tuba, the wife isn't a fan (takes up too much space in the house).[/quote]
[RICKY RICARDO VOICE] Well, how 'bout I store wife in garage... more space for tubas! [/RICKY RICARDO VOICE]
[RICKY RICARDO VOICE] Well, how 'bout I store wife in garage... more space for tubas! [/RICKY RICARDO VOICE]
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="robcat2075"]how 'bout I store wife in garage[/quote]
You're joking about the garage... but I bet there are a lot of people who never use their car trunks, and a tuba could live there just fine. Instead of dragging it into the car to go to rehearsal, you'd drag it into the house for practice sessions, then put it back. Of course, that may not work if you have an SUV instead of a sedan. My friend used to call his station wagon a "display case".
You're joking about the garage... but I bet there are a lot of people who never use their car trunks, and a tuba could live there just fine. Instead of dragging it into the car to go to rehearsal, you'd drag it into the house for practice sessions, then put it back. Of course, that may not work if you have an SUV instead of a sedan. My friend used to call his station wagon a "display case".
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]You're joking about the garage... but I bet there are a lot of people who never use their car trunks... Of course, that may not work if you have an SUV instead of a sedan. My friend used to call his station wagon a "display case".[/quote]
Get a cardboard box labeled "FERTILIZER" to put over it.
Get a cardboard box labeled "FERTILIZER" to put over it.