unique pedagogy
- toneovertune
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Sep 12, 2024
What is the weirdest pedgogy you have ever heard? They can be super positive or they can be horrible. I am just curious what is being taught these days. Also am curious about pedagogy outside the Western culture.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
weirdest?
In the 19th Century Pablo Casals had a cello teacher who insisted that he keep a book pressed under his right armpit so that his upper arm would not move while he bowed.
In the 19th Century Pablo Casals had a cello teacher who insisted that he keep a book pressed under his right armpit so that his upper arm would not move while he bowed.
- ScaryTerry
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Jul 26, 2022
There are some great players out there who say they don’t tongue half steps anymore. They sound great doing it, but I’ve never been able to make it work for me.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Androgogy is more effective for adults. People trying to use pedagogy on adults like they are kids is not effective. But I see people using kid methods on adults. Or vice versa.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="toneovertune"]What is the weirdest pedgogy you have ever heard? They can be super positive or they can be horrible. I am just curious what is being taught these days. Also am curious about pedagogy outside the Western culture.[/quote]
These days there are lots of people offering their ideas online that are pretty weird. I recall one video I watched where the young trumpet player suggested running outside in the winter with shorts and no shirt to get good and cold to learn to play high. There's a trumpet method book that advises practicing extreme lip positions that seem designed to mess with a players chops, in my opinion. An awful lot of traditional brass pedagogy seems to come down to the "think system."
I can't really speak about non-western music pedagogy. I know there is a long and rich tradition of music teaching from India and that in many traditional African cultures music is much more participatory and everyone gets involved in music.
[quote="harrisonreed"]Androgogy is more effective for adults. People trying to use pedagogy on adults like they are kids is not effective. But I see people using kid methods on adults. Or vice versa.[/quote]
Do "pedantry" and "pedagogy" have the same root origin? I don't think so, since "pedantry" seems to be derived from Latin and "pedagogy" from Greek.
"Pedagogy" is just fine to refer to teaching and learning with adults too. Yes, the term originally refers to teaching of children, but these days it is used to discuss the methods of teaching and learning in a scholarly or academic context. To further muddy the waters, descriptions of androgogy involve concepts that are frequently used when teaching children these days too (self-directed learning, internal motivation, experiential learning, etc.). Music education, as a discipline, does a pretty good job at utilizing experiential learning, for example.
Dave
These days there are lots of people offering their ideas online that are pretty weird. I recall one video I watched where the young trumpet player suggested running outside in the winter with shorts and no shirt to get good and cold to learn to play high. There's a trumpet method book that advises practicing extreme lip positions that seem designed to mess with a players chops, in my opinion. An awful lot of traditional brass pedagogy seems to come down to the "think system."
I can't really speak about non-western music pedagogy. I know there is a long and rich tradition of music teaching from India and that in many traditional African cultures music is much more participatory and everyone gets involved in music.
[quote="harrisonreed"]Androgogy is more effective for adults. People trying to use pedagogy on adults like they are kids is not effective. But I see people using kid methods on adults. Or vice versa.[/quote]
Do "pedantry" and "pedagogy" have the same root origin? I don't think so, since "pedantry" seems to be derived from Latin and "pedagogy" from Greek.
"Pedagogy" is just fine to refer to teaching and learning with adults too. Yes, the term originally refers to teaching of children, but these days it is used to discuss the methods of teaching and learning in a scholarly or academic context. To further muddy the waters, descriptions of androgogy involve concepts that are frequently used when teaching children these days too (self-directed learning, internal motivation, experiential learning, etc.). Music education, as a discipline, does a pretty good job at utilizing experiential learning, for example.
Dave
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
My point is that often teachers do not take into account how to teach adults. A lot of brass teaching is so "inside the box" that it's silly.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]So, then, how does one most effectively teach adults?[/quote]
It really depends on where they are coming from. If they already know how to read music, you have half the battle won. Just start them on a no-nonsense beginner method like Rubank or LaFosse and go on.
If they have no idea how to read music or even how to make a sound, you have to start at a much more basic level. Sad part is most suitable methods for this stage are really geared to kids and have a lot of kid melodies and funny pictures in them to interest kids. You can use these books, but you have to get the adults to live with the juvenile stuff.
It really depends on where they are coming from. If they already know how to read music, you have half the battle won. Just start them on a no-nonsense beginner method like Rubank or LaFosse and go on.
If they have no idea how to read music or even how to make a sound, you have to start at a much more basic level. Sad part is most suitable methods for this stage are really geared to kids and have a lot of kid melodies and funny pictures in them to interest kids. You can use these books, but you have to get the adults to live with the juvenile stuff.
- StephenK
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
I have a playing colleague who is well into Kodaly teaching. I can't say I know the pros and cons, he is a bit obsessive about it. My gut feeling is that it probably suits some students much more than others. Any thoughts/experiences?
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]My point is that often teachers do not take into account how to teach adults. A lot of brass teaching is so "inside the box" that it's silly.[/quote]
Gotcha.
Well, of course teaching adults runs the gamut.
You can have beginning adult students who are starting from scratch. My wife, for example, only began learning music as an adult and I recall her complaining that one of her teachers wanted her to learn to play "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star." I pointed out that it was a familiar song, so she would be able to hear if she was playing it wrong compared to something new to her and that it would also help her learn to get around her instrument better (folk harp and hammered dulcimer). She pretty quickly moved past that, but I would not hesitate to use sometime similar for an adult to get them started. You just need to help them make the connection to a children's song to music they are interested in performing.
You can also have comeback adult players, who already have a background in music, but are returning to music after a layoff. Or some of them may already be accomplished musicians, but learning a new instrument.
College students are another category of adult students, but they are not monolithic either. My college students range from aspiring professional musicians to students majoring in other subject but who just want to continue to have fun with music.
At the extreme opposite end of the spectrum are working professionals who may be having some specific technique issues or are working on something particularly advanced that they want help with.
[quote="StephenK"]I have a playing colleague who is well into Kodaly teaching. I can't say I know the pros and cons, he is a bit obsessive about it. My gut feeling is that it probably suits some students much more than others. Any thoughts/experiences?[/quote]
Kodaly's methods have been around for a while and are quite effective. The El Sistema program that I administer draws a lot from it. It's designed to be used with children, so it can incorporate movement and is supposed to use folk music or other songs that are already familiar to the students. You can read up a lot about it online, if you're curious. Certain elements, such as the rhythmic solfège, can certainly be used with adult beginners as well.
Dave
Gotcha.
Well, of course teaching adults runs the gamut.
You can have beginning adult students who are starting from scratch. My wife, for example, only began learning music as an adult and I recall her complaining that one of her teachers wanted her to learn to play "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star." I pointed out that it was a familiar song, so she would be able to hear if she was playing it wrong compared to something new to her and that it would also help her learn to get around her instrument better (folk harp and hammered dulcimer). She pretty quickly moved past that, but I would not hesitate to use sometime similar for an adult to get them started. You just need to help them make the connection to a children's song to music they are interested in performing.
You can also have comeback adult players, who already have a background in music, but are returning to music after a layoff. Or some of them may already be accomplished musicians, but learning a new instrument.
College students are another category of adult students, but they are not monolithic either. My college students range from aspiring professional musicians to students majoring in other subject but who just want to continue to have fun with music.
At the extreme opposite end of the spectrum are working professionals who may be having some specific technique issues or are working on something particularly advanced that they want help with.
[quote="StephenK"]I have a playing colleague who is well into Kodaly teaching. I can't say I know the pros and cons, he is a bit obsessive about it. My gut feeling is that it probably suits some students much more than others. Any thoughts/experiences?[/quote]
Kodaly's methods have been around for a while and are quite effective. The El Sistema program that I administer draws a lot from it. It's designed to be used with children, so it can incorporate movement and is supposed to use folk music or other songs that are already familiar to the students. You can read up a lot about it online, if you're curious. Certain elements, such as the rhythmic solfège, can certainly be used with adult beginners as well.
Dave
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
What about the Suzuki method? It's more and more used among all instruments. Have some good exercise I use with kids. But I dont know much about the pedagogy it self.
Leif
Leif
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="Wilktone"]
College students are another category of adult students, but they are not monolithic either. My college students range from aspiring professional musicians to students majoring in other subject but who just want to continue to have fun with music.
At the extreme opposite end of the spectrum are working professionals who may be having some specific technique issues or are working on something particularly advanced that they want help with.
[/quote]
Yup, all of my students are from these two categories and each one has entirely different needs and learning styles. Each of them needs a really different way of teaching both in contents and methods. Definitely not monolithic!
College students are another category of adult students, but they are not monolithic either. My college students range from aspiring professional musicians to students majoring in other subject but who just want to continue to have fun with music.
At the extreme opposite end of the spectrum are working professionals who may be having some specific technique issues or are working on something particularly advanced that they want help with.
[/quote]
Yup, all of my students are from these two categories and each one has entirely different needs and learning styles. Each of them needs a really different way of teaching both in contents and methods. Definitely not monolithic!
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Not pedagogy, but this situation really stuck with me…..
Many years ago, I was hired as a consultant to observe a high school marching band during their summer band camp. They wanted advice on possible ways to make their rehearsals and their marching band program more effective. Despite being an orchestral-trained musician, competitive marching band somehow became my “schtick” when I was a high school director…….that was 25+ years ago.
Anyway, one of the “brass instructors” at this school (a young guy who just completed his Music Ed Bachelors degree) was lecturing the brass section and said….. “The reason your piston valves are sticking is because you are using too much valve oil. The valve can only handle so much oil, then it will start to bind.” I had to pull him aside and show him how extra oil will simply drain out of the bottom valve cap. Thus, the stuck valves were probably the result of something else.
He received the information well and saw the lack of logic in his advice. At that point, I thought all was well. 30 minutes later, he said “Trombones! Why are spraying water on your slides? It is just going to make them rust!”
I think you can predict what my advice was when the head band director asked me later that day if I had any staffing suggestions!
Many years ago, I was hired as a consultant to observe a high school marching band during their summer band camp. They wanted advice on possible ways to make their rehearsals and their marching band program more effective. Despite being an orchestral-trained musician, competitive marching band somehow became my “schtick” when I was a high school director…….that was 25+ years ago.
Anyway, one of the “brass instructors” at this school (a young guy who just completed his Music Ed Bachelors degree) was lecturing the brass section and said….. “The reason your piston valves are sticking is because you are using too much valve oil. The valve can only handle so much oil, then it will start to bind.” I had to pull him aside and show him how extra oil will simply drain out of the bottom valve cap. Thus, the stuck valves were probably the result of something else.
He received the information well and saw the lack of logic in his advice. At that point, I thought all was well. 30 minutes later, he said “Trombones! Why are spraying water on your slides? It is just going to make them rust!”
I think you can predict what my advice was when the head band director asked me later that day if I had any staffing suggestions!
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]...a young guy who just completed his Music Ed Bachelors degree...[/quote]
Which begs the question: Did he get those ideas from one of his teachers? If so, how many other former students now take them as gospel? More troubling: What other odds and ends of misinformation have they been saddled with?
Which begs the question: Did he get those ideas from one of his teachers? If so, how many other former students now take them as gospel? More troubling: What other odds and ends of misinformation have they been saddled with?
- Trombo
- Posts: 143
- Joined: Dec 11, 2020
In the USSR, it was common to start training a trombonist with the German stile tenor in Bb (or baritone). When the child grew up and his hand could reach the 7th position, he was transferred to the trombone. The convenience was that the same mouthpiece was used, and the embouchure was already formed.
This is not so common now. Training begins immediately with the tenor trombone, and sometimes with the alto trombone, if the child is small.
It is interesting that trumpeters and French horn players in children's brass bands sometimes began to learn on the German stile alto horn in Es and then transferred to the trumpet or French horn, although the mouthpiece of the trumpet or French horn is much smaller.
This is not so common now. Training begins immediately with the tenor trombone, and sometimes with the alto trombone, if the child is small.
It is interesting that trumpeters and French horn players in children's brass bands sometimes began to learn on the German stile alto horn in Es and then transferred to the trumpet or French horn, although the mouthpiece of the trumpet or French horn is much smaller.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
It's only in later adult life that I've realized how bad the teaching was in my beginning trombone teachers.
For example, I got a failing grade at my first private lesson.
In the Summer before 6th grade they had started us with group meetings where they made sure we knew how to assemble the horn and were getting a sound out of it. There was some talk about counting but then we were on our own until school started in the Fall.
In 6th grade we got one 15-minute private lesson per week. I tried to play the page they had told us to work on over the Summer. I didn't think i was doing it well but I also wasn't sure what I should be doing.
The teacher told me I had done very poorly and "don't ever let this happen again". He sent me off with the failing mark written in the back of my method book but no explanation of what to change.
Although I got gradually better grades over the rest of the year, he would frequently have me redo some portion of the current week's material in addition to what was assigned for the next week... but did not tell me how I had gone wrong or what to do differently.
"You need to practice this part more" was all he said.
When I played it satisfactorily(?) the next week I honestly didn't know what had gotten better and he didn't explain it to me. He'd just say "next" after each line.
I'm not saying this is "unique" pedagogy, it is probably common in public schools, but it is "horrible" pedagogy the OP was inquiring about.
For example, I got a failing grade at my first private lesson.
In the Summer before 6th grade they had started us with group meetings where they made sure we knew how to assemble the horn and were getting a sound out of it. There was some talk about counting but then we were on our own until school started in the Fall.
In 6th grade we got one 15-minute private lesson per week. I tried to play the page they had told us to work on over the Summer. I didn't think i was doing it well but I also wasn't sure what I should be doing.
The teacher told me I had done very poorly and "don't ever let this happen again". He sent me off with the failing mark written in the back of my method book but no explanation of what to change.
Although I got gradually better grades over the rest of the year, he would frequently have me redo some portion of the current week's material in addition to what was assigned for the next week... but did not tell me how I had gone wrong or what to do differently.
"You need to practice this part more" was all he said.
When I played it satisfactorily(?) the next week I honestly didn't know what had gotten better and he didn't explain it to me. He'd just say "next" after each line.
I'm not saying this is "unique" pedagogy, it is probably common in public schools, but it is "horrible" pedagogy the OP was inquiring about.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]I'm not saying this is "unique" pedagogy, it is probably common in public schools, but it is "horrible" pedagogy the OP was inquiring about.[/quote]
I hope you are not right about this. The elementary music teaching in our local public schools (by credentialed, mostly music ed majors) is <B>MUCH</B> better than what you experienced.
I hope you are not right about this. The elementary music teaching in our local public schools (by credentialed, mostly music ed majors) is <B>MUCH</B> better than what you experienced.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Savio"]What about the Suzuki method? It's more and more used among all instruments. Have some good exercise I use with kids. But I dont know much about the pedagogy it self.
Leif[/quote]
James Markey of the Boston Symphony has gotten certified as a Suzuki instructor for trombone. https://www.markeybone.com/suzuki
Leif[/quote]
James Markey of the Boston Symphony has gotten certified as a Suzuki instructor for trombone. https://www.markeybone.com/suzuki
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
One of the great trumpet teachers of our time is Jim Pandolfi, who played in the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. Many trumpeters, including some of the top players currently performing and close colleagues of mine, credit him with putting their approaches to the instrument on the right track for successful careers.
Many of his concepts are exactly the opposite of "accepted wisdom." He breathes mostly through his nose. He advocates against the rhythmic breath. He tells people to play at the top of the pitch, not the middle or the bottom. And he's hugely entertaining, with very...colorful...language. I cannot recommend this video interview highly enough.
https://www.brasschats.com/interviews/jim-pandolfi
<VIMEO id="201060664">https://vimeo.com/201060664</VIMEO>
Many of his concepts are exactly the opposite of "accepted wisdom." He breathes mostly through his nose. He advocates against the rhythmic breath. He tells people to play at the top of the pitch, not the middle or the bottom. And he's hugely entertaining, with very...colorful...language. I cannot recommend this video interview highly enough.
https://www.brasschats.com/interviews/jim-pandolfi
<VIMEO id="201060664">https://vimeo.com/201060664</VIMEO>
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]One of the great trumpet teachers of our time is Jim Pandolfi, who played in the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. Many trumpeters, including some of the top players currently performing and close colleagues of mine, credit him with putting their approaches to the instrument on the right track for successful careers.
Many of his concepts are exactly the opposite of "accepted wisdom." He breathes mostly through his nose. He advocates against the rhythmic breath. He tells people to play at the top of the pitch, not the middle or the bottom. And he's hugely entertaining, with very...colorful...language. I cannot recommend this video interview highly enough.
https://www.brasschats.com/interviews/jim-pandolfi
<VIMEO id="201060664">https://vimeo.com/201060664</VIMEO>[/quote]
Totally agree with what you say. He's one of the true brass 'gurus'!
We (trombonists) have a lot to learn from our trumpet friends, instead of being stuck in our overwhelmingly "one or two schools of thought of trombone playing."
(I have to add, I think that Doug Elliott's ideas on brass playing are much like Pandolfi's.)
Another fine brass pedagogue right now is the trumpet player Franz Hackl (NYC/Austria). (Franz plays with 'B3', a group with Dave Taylor and John Clark (horn) and directs the Outreach Music Festival every summer in Austria, along with free-lancing in NYC with some of the best of the best)
Franz, like Doug does, gets down to what is really happening 'on the face' for trumpet players.
We all want to play our best, with a vibrant sound using techniques that aren't actually 'getting in our own way', right?
The Pandolfi video is a gem! Gotta' love him for saying it 'like it is'!
Many of his concepts are exactly the opposite of "accepted wisdom." He breathes mostly through his nose. He advocates against the rhythmic breath. He tells people to play at the top of the pitch, not the middle or the bottom. And he's hugely entertaining, with very...colorful...language. I cannot recommend this video interview highly enough.
https://www.brasschats.com/interviews/jim-pandolfi
<VIMEO id="201060664">https://vimeo.com/201060664</VIMEO>[/quote]
Totally agree with what you say. He's one of the true brass 'gurus'!
We (trombonists) have a lot to learn from our trumpet friends, instead of being stuck in our overwhelmingly "one or two schools of thought of trombone playing."
(I have to add, I think that Doug Elliott's ideas on brass playing are much like Pandolfi's.)
Another fine brass pedagogue right now is the trumpet player Franz Hackl (NYC/Austria). (Franz plays with 'B3', a group with Dave Taylor and John Clark (horn) and directs the Outreach Music Festival every summer in Austria, along with free-lancing in NYC with some of the best of the best)
Franz, like Doug does, gets down to what is really happening 'on the face' for trumpet players.
We all want to play our best, with a vibrant sound using techniques that aren't actually 'getting in our own way', right?
The Pandolfi video is a gem! Gotta' love him for saying it 'like it is'!
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="276488" time="1747847215" user_id="3697">
I'm not saying this is "unique" pedagogy, it is probably common in public schools, but it is "horrible" pedagogy the OP was inquiring about.[/quote]
I hope you are not right about this. The elementary music teaching in our local public schools (by credentialed, mostly music ed majors) is <B>MUCH</B> better than what you experienced.
</QUOTE>
Ours were credentialed, music education-majored teachers also. But having been a music education major myself I can say that is scant preparation for actual teaching.
I'm not saying this is "unique" pedagogy, it is probably common in public schools, but it is "horrible" pedagogy the OP was inquiring about.[/quote]
I hope you are not right about this. The elementary music teaching in our local public schools (by credentialed, mostly music ed majors) is <B>MUCH</B> better than what you experienced.
</QUOTE>
Ours were credentialed, music education-majored teachers also. But having been a music education major myself I can say that is scant preparation for actual teaching.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]What does “on top of the sound” mean?[/quote]
Did you mean:
[quote="GabrielRice"]...Many of his concepts are exactly the opposite of "accepted wisdom ... He tells people to play at the top of the pitch, not the middle or the bottom...[/quote]
I have interpreted that to mean that, of the range of pitch that you could bend any note with your lips, the "normal" should be near the high end of that.
I presume i've always been doing that since I can bend a note lower much more than i can bend it higher. I must be near the top already.
That isn't standard? :idk:
Did you mean:
[quote="GabrielRice"]...Many of his concepts are exactly the opposite of "accepted wisdom ... He tells people to play at the top of the pitch, not the middle or the bottom...[/quote]
I have interpreted that to mean that, of the range of pitch that you could bend any note with your lips, the "normal" should be near the high end of that.
I presume i've always been doing that since I can bend a note lower much more than i can bend it higher. I must be near the top already.
That isn't standard? :idk:
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
As with everything, it depends on what you're already doing and the results.
Many people play too low on the pitch and get a dead sound that might sound nice up close but doesn't project.. They need to play higher on the pitch.
If you're already playing too high on the pitch, you might need to play lower on.the pitch.
Many people play too low on the pitch and get a dead sound that might sound nice up close but doesn't project.. They need to play higher on the pitch.
If you're already playing too high on the pitch, you might need to play lower on.the pitch.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="robcat2075"]I have interpreted that to mean that, of the range of pitch that you could bend any note with your lips, the "normal" should be near the high end of that.[/quote]
I thought the same thing too. But at 16:22, Pandolfi says "It's on top of the sound for singers...". Singers obviously don't have partials.
It may be an intonation thing. I know I've been struggling with even the ceremonial A from the oboe (or Bb from the tuba). I can find many different flavors of A which are fine to my ear, but a tuner would object to.
16:31 "Sabine Meyer - she plays on top of the sound. Every note she plays on the clarinet is perfectly, perfectly in tune."
I thought the same thing too. But at 16:22, Pandolfi says "It's on top of the sound for singers...". Singers obviously don't have partials.
It may be an intonation thing. I know I've been struggling with even the ceremonial A from the oboe (or Bb from the tuba). I can find many different flavors of A which are fine to my ear, but a tuner would object to.
16:31 "Sabine Meyer - she plays on top of the sound. Every note she plays on the clarinet is perfectly, perfectly in tune."
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="278521" time="1749837344" user_id="3697">
I have interpreted that to mean that, of the range of pitch that you could bend any note with your lips, the "normal" should be near the high end of that.[/quote]
I thought the same thing too. But at 16:22, Pandolfi says "It's on top of the sound for singers...". Singers obviously don't have partials.
It may be an intonation thing. I know I've been struggling with even the ceremonial A from the oboe (or Bb from the tuba). I can find many different flavors of A which are fine to my ear, but a tuner would object to.
16:31 "Sabine Meyer - she plays on top of the sound. Every note she plays on the clarinet is perfectly, perfectly in tune."
</QUOTE>
Haven't watched the whole video, just the section you note.
I think whenever we hear something that doesn't make sense we should at least consider the possibility that it's... nonsense. Accomplished players often either don't know or don't know how to explain how they do what they do.
The mental image he has of what he thinks he's talking about may be completely bonkers in real world terms. He's tossing around a lot of vague notions and it may be a mistake to think he has some ten-dimensional chess going on that we could decode.
I have heard enough bonkers BS from teachers that I now know is bonkers BS to know that they can have a lot of that in them and they will never think it through.
He's talking about singers? Is he an A-list singer such that he even knows what A-list singers do? Or does he just think he knows what they do? We don't know.
I have interpreted that to mean that, of the range of pitch that you could bend any note with your lips, the "normal" should be near the high end of that.[/quote]
I thought the same thing too. But at 16:22, Pandolfi says "It's on top of the sound for singers...". Singers obviously don't have partials.
It may be an intonation thing. I know I've been struggling with even the ceremonial A from the oboe (or Bb from the tuba). I can find many different flavors of A which are fine to my ear, but a tuner would object to.
16:31 "Sabine Meyer - she plays on top of the sound. Every note she plays on the clarinet is perfectly, perfectly in tune."
</QUOTE>
Haven't watched the whole video, just the section you note.
I think whenever we hear something that doesn't make sense we should at least consider the possibility that it's... nonsense. Accomplished players often either don't know or don't know how to explain how they do what they do.
The mental image he has of what he thinks he's talking about may be completely bonkers in real world terms. He's tossing around a lot of vague notions and it may be a mistake to think he has some ten-dimensional chess going on that we could decode.
I have heard enough bonkers BS from teachers that I now know is bonkers BS to know that they can have a lot of that in them and they will never think it through.
He's talking about singers? Is he an A-list singer such that he even knows what A-list singers do? Or does he just think he knows what they do? We don't know.
- BPBasso
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Mar 31, 2025
When I heard that Pandolfi interview I heard the "on top of the sound" comment a couple of ways:
1) Akin to the quote. "I'd rather be sharp than out of tune."
2) It's a metaphor to get his students/piers to stop trying to play so open, dull, ahhh, without brilliance.
3) It may apply more to lead parts. Lighten up and let it ring, remove the idea of "dominating" with volume
For my own bass trombone playing right now, I took it as tightening up the aperture and opening the throat...allow for a more pure buzz, a fuller air stream, more color and ringing in the sound.
1) Akin to the quote. "I'd rather be sharp than out of tune."
2) It's a metaphor to get his students/piers to stop trying to play so open, dull, ahhh, without brilliance.
3) It may apply more to lead parts. Lighten up and let it ring, remove the idea of "dominating" with volume
For my own bass trombone playing right now, I took it as tightening up the aperture and opening the throat...allow for a more pure buzz, a fuller air stream, more color and ringing in the sound.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
We had a good discussion about this in a thread a while back. I'm still using this stuff now.
<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=229585#p229585">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=229585#p229585</LINK_TEXT>
<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=229585#p229585">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=229585#p229585</LINK_TEXT>
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
deleted
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]
You admit you didn't watch much of this video at all, and you obviously did not read my introduction to it, so I will write some of it again.
Jim Pandolfi played in the Metropolitan Opera orchestra, so he has at least some sense of what the greatest opera singers in the world do. And he has taught some of the best trumpet players in the world, many of whom credit him with teaching them to make the great sounds they make.
So whether you can glean anything from watching a tiny portion of this video or not, what he knows and teaches about playing a brass instrument is most certainly not nonsense.[/quote]
Your characterization of my post is completely dishonest and you know it.
As you know, I was responding to Atomic Clock's doubt about what Pandolfini means by "on top of the sound for singers". He just throws that phrase out there with no explanation as to how that relates to brass playing. If there is some good sense to it, he hasn't provided it.
I did read your introduction before I watched the video.
Here is the complete text of it:
Your introduction contains no information for AtomicClock or I as to what Pandolfini means in regard to his vague assertion that singers sing "on the top".
Does it? Is it in there somewhere? Show me where you already answered the question that AtomicClock and i have with this guy's rant such that it's "obvious" that I didn't read it. I count eight sentences there, it must be one of those, right?
You've watched the entire video. Tell us what he means by singers singing "on the top". Does he answer that somewhere else in the video? Where does he explain it? If there is an answer why didn't you answer AtomicClock's original question directly when he asked it?
That is the question being asked and you knew that.
You admit you didn't watch much of this video at all, and you obviously did not read my introduction to it, so I will write some of it again.
Jim Pandolfi played in the Metropolitan Opera orchestra, so he has at least some sense of what the greatest opera singers in the world do. And he has taught some of the best trumpet players in the world, many of whom credit him with teaching them to make the great sounds they make.
So whether you can glean anything from watching a tiny portion of this video or not, what he knows and teaches about playing a brass instrument is most certainly not nonsense.[/quote]
Your characterization of my post is completely dishonest and you know it.
As you know, I was responding to Atomic Clock's doubt about what Pandolfini means by "on top of the sound for singers". He just throws that phrase out there with no explanation as to how that relates to brass playing. If there is some good sense to it, he hasn't provided it.
I did read your introduction before I watched the video.
Here is the complete text of it:
One of the great trumpet teachers of our time is Jim Pandolfi, who played in the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. Many trumpeters, including some of the top players currently performing and close colleagues of mine, credit him with putting their approaches to the instrument on the right track for successful careers.
Many of his concepts are exactly the opposite of "accepted wisdom." He breathes mostly through his nose. He advocates against the rhythmic breath. He tells people to play at the top of the pitch, not the middle or the bottom. And he's hugely entertaining, with very...colorful...language. I cannot recommend this video interview highly enough.
Your introduction contains no information for AtomicClock or I as to what Pandolfini means in regard to his vague assertion that singers sing "on the top".
Does it? Is it in there somewhere? Show me where you already answered the question that AtomicClock and i have with this guy's rant such that it's "obvious" that I didn't read it. I count eight sentences there, it must be one of those, right?
You've watched the entire video. Tell us what he means by singers singing "on the top". Does he answer that somewhere else in the video? Where does he explain it? If there is an answer why didn't you answer AtomicClock's original question directly when he asked it?
That is the question being asked and you knew that.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
deleted
Watch the video if you want to understand more of what Mr. Pandolfi is saying.
Watch the video if you want to understand more of what Mr. Pandolfi is saying.