Pedal notes in outer positions

Tooloud · by **Tooloud** » 2019-02-20 5:25 a.m.

I noticed a strange thing: Currently I have to jump often from D oder C down to 'F or 'E.

It's less slide movement to play this in T4- > 6/7 than T4- > T1, so I'd much prefer to do so.

The problem is: In the outer position the pedal tones often don't speak as quickly as the same note played with F-valve in first position.

Why is that so? The length of the tube is identical to generate the same tone, isn't it?

So: Is this an effect of physics somehow oder simply lack of ability?

By the way: Mylower pedal range with one or two valves is more stable than the open pedals in the outer positions. I'd appreciate any hints to improve this!!

tailgate · by **tailgate** » 2019-02-20 5:44 a.m.

Trombone angle due to extended arm which impacts embouchure???

Can you reach the outer positions easily or do you make compensatory movements???

Tooloud · by **Tooloud** » 2019-02-20 6:26 a.m.

As you mention it: As the slide moves outward beyond 6th position, the angle changes, indeed. It's sloping downward. but so does my head. To 6th position the decline is relatively small.

But I'll observe myself in this respect and report, if changeing this causes improvement.

Thank you very much for this hint!

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2019-02-20 8:13 a.m.

My slide angle wants to pull downwards, but also rightwards.

For me that's not a problem, because that's what my motion needs to do in the low range anyway. But many people need up or left instead, and they will see some difficulty if not aware of it.

Tooloud · by **Tooloud** » 2019-02-20 8:29 a.m.

To right is what I do, too. Seems natural to me, because the slide is operated by the right hand, so the distance is a tiny bit shorter than a straight line would be.

But to the left? This would increase the way the arm has to travel? Strange...

But on topic: Your pedal F speaks equally in 6th as in T1?

Specialk3700 · by **Specialk3700** » 2019-02-20 9:31 a.m.

The resistance gained when playing it in T1 is probably what makes it speak easier.

Tooloud · by **Tooloud** » 2019-02-20 10:22 a.m.

It probably is. I prefer some resistance in my instrument anyway.

Can I compensate this in my embouchure or anything? I'd really like to reduce slide movement using 6th position reliably. Out of 30 times I fail 5 times, another 5 times it doesn't sound good. That's too much for confidence in concert.

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2019-02-20 10:47 a.m.

[quote="Specialk3700"]The resistance gained when playing it in T1 is probably what makes it speak easier.[/quote]

My thought exactly! Less resistance in the outer positions relative to inner with a trigger.

Just spend some time working those intervals trying not to change your embouchure or horn position.

Eric

Savio · by **Savio** » 2019-02-20 1:11 p.m.

I also find the pedal F easier in 1st with the valve. But sometimes in 6th it comes out like a lion roars. Maybe more control with more resistance?

Leif

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2019-02-20 1:54 p.m.

[quote="Tooloud"]

But on topic: Your pedal F speaks equally in 6th as in T1?[/quote]

I will check tonight.

And then again tomorrow, when it will probably be different.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2019-02-20 2:05 p.m.

If it's easier and sounds better in first and second, work on the slide movement. Problem solved.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-02-20 2:32 p.m.

A couple of things to think about: Sometimes going across a partial break or a valve break helps you articulate the note. Plus, as people have mentioned, the additional resistance helps your chops get vibrating (so talk of openness is really overblown? :amazed:?) Plus, bringing the slide in increases the pressure in the horn, which does the same thing as resistance, pushing the slide out decreases the pressure, which makes it harder to form vibrations.

Practice slurring down there, which is much harder and requires a lot more air than slurring up higher on a smaller horn. Also practice glissing down by half step from pedal Bb to pedal F. This helps your chops with the muscle memory of feeling where that F is supposed to be, and because you start with the note already in motion, it's easier to keep it going than to rearticulate it from scratch (until you run out of air).

Tooloud · by **Tooloud** » 2019-02-20 2:37 p.m.

Problem is: It's a fast run in ff while the orchestra holds out the final chord over two bars. No place to hide (ff!).

And to Leif: The roaring lion tone I know too well. My sound quality is getting lost out there. 6th postion pedal F doesn't have the same 'velvety' dark sound like I can achieve with confidence down to the 4th position. Since I rarely needed those very low notes in the past, I didn't care too much. Used the pedal tones for warm up (There is noise coming out down to ''B flat...), but the music I played did not require them. It's only now in my ageing days I have to perform these notes... Maybe I overblow, becauseI really don't know how loud it has to be to be heard?

To Burgerbob: 1st is a workaround. A work around a problem I would like to solve. And I like playing with as little slide movement as possible, what's sometimes is less easy, because I use a double valve dependent bass for it's convincing sound. I never get the same sound from an independent valve setup - at least it seems so to me. Wether there would be any difference to the audience, I doubt.

I still have a couple of weeks before this piece will be performed, so a lasting elegant solution would be appreciated.

Thanks to you all for your helpful thoughts! I'll try!!

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2019-02-21 7:54 a.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="Tooloud" post_id="78704" time="1550669379" user_id="271">

But on topic: Your pedal F speaks equally in 6th as in T1?[/quote]

I will check tonight.

And then again tomorrow, when it will probably be different.
</QUOTE>

Sorry, I could not tell any difference between pedal F in 6th and T1.

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Pedal notes in outer positions