hearing vs feeling notes
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
When I play anything in 6th partial ( :tenorclef: :space5:) or lower, I just play it, letting muscle memory find the right partial. But for anything higher, even the F#, I have to hear the pitch in my head before I can play it. F has always been the cutoff, since I was a wee lad; it hasn't moved as I've improved as a player.
Is that everyone's threshold? Do other people even think of notes that way? Is it possible to raise the threshold? Is it a mistake (musically) to rely on it?
I can still be shaky, intonation-wise, on the shortened 7th partial positions. Maybe that has something to do with it?
Is that everyone's threshold? Do other people even think of notes that way? Is it possible to raise the threshold? Is it a mistake (musically) to rely on it?
I can still be shaky, intonation-wise, on the shortened 7th partial positions. Maybe that has something to do with it?
- BrianJohnston
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Jul 11, 2020
Practice singing or whistling where you have trouble hearing the note(s). I also definitely rely on feel as well as sound.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
In my opinion, you should hear every note in your mind before you play it, but you need both hearing and muscle memory together.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
It's an interesting question, and hard to determine the line in an objective way, maybe? If I think hard on it, I would have to say I'm more of a feel person - my musical imagination was never a strong suit, but my kinesthetic/athletic sense always felt like the more natural state.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
In an ideal world, hearing, but I think we typically go by feel more than we think. Learning to bass sackbut pitched a 5th, sometimes a 6th lower, where you can't really just go by feel and really, really have to consciously audiate everything and adjust your whole concept of resonance to every note, made me realise that I had indeed probably been relying on feel more than I realized. Which in turns has improved my tenor playing a lot .
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Coming from playing bass a LOT for a long time, to really working up my doubles, I found out just how much I relied on feel rather than listening.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
I can pick up the horn and somewhat reliably play a note from :bassclef: :space2: to :line5: without hearing it aforehand.
So that's muscle memory. I don't have perfect pitch.
Above or below that i need to have been playing and have a mental notion of the pitch, especially for very low notes which are very easy to mis-target and just make a flop instead of a note.
There's also a muscle memory to those notes high and low, it's just a more-recently-reinforced memory. I think that's what "warning up" is... reminding yourself how it feels to play the horn right.
So that's muscle memory. I don't have perfect pitch.
Above or below that i need to have been playing and have a mental notion of the pitch, especially for very low notes which are very easy to mis-target and just make a flop instead of a note.
There's also a muscle memory to those notes high and low, it's just a more-recently-reinforced memory. I think that's what "warning up" is... reminding yourself how it feels to play the horn right.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
When my tenor chops were in order, I definitely heard all the notes, and the sounds were linked to muscle memory, marking the feel of each note. If I didn't hear low notes, I'd crack the note.
I notice, though, that bass requires more physical and less mental concentration. Although you can totally miss judge low notes too.
I notice, though, that bass requires more physical and less mental concentration. Although you can totally miss judge low notes too.
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi.
I think that we need both hearing and feeling .
I always go for hearing first , but I also like to feel the note on my chops.
Anyway , one can test his personal training about these two aspects , hearing and feeling .
Just try to hit , from the nowhere , some tones on long slide alternate positions , as D over the staff on #7th position , or high G ( three lines above the staff ) in 6th position , or high Bb in b6th position , etc ; if you have a F valve horn , an Ab in the staff in 6th position with the valve engaged , etc .
Of course , without any previous source that can let you ear the tone first !
Regards
Giancarlo
I think that we need both hearing and feeling .
I always go for hearing first , but I also like to feel the note on my chops.
Anyway , one can test his personal training about these two aspects , hearing and feeling .
Just try to hit , from the nowhere , some tones on long slide alternate positions , as D over the staff on #7th position , or high G ( three lines above the staff ) in 6th position , or high Bb in b6th position , etc ; if you have a F valve horn , an Ab in the staff in 6th position with the valve engaged , etc .
Of course , without any previous source that can let you ear the tone first !
Regards
Giancarlo
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
For me, it's both, and also hard to differentiate.
I am fairly OK with a "pre-audiation" of what I'm reading but also I need the muscle memory. In a way, reading the shape of a musical line in terms of how I'd expect it might sound is a separate thing from reading the shape of a musical line in terms of how I'd expect it to physically feel.
For sure, to do good sight-reading, everything needs to be in sync.
I am fairly OK with a "pre-audiation" of what I'm reading but also I need the muscle memory. In a way, reading the shape of a musical line in terms of how I'd expect it might sound is a separate thing from reading the shape of a musical line in terms of how I'd expect it to physically feel.
For sure, to do good sight-reading, everything needs to be in sync.
- Chronos91
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Jul 10, 2022
I think my cutoff for where I need to audiate is pretty close to that, likely around F4. I think I similarly didn't really make progress above there until I started to hear those notes before playing, but I don't know if I really knew to even do that until I started taking trumpet lessons a few years after starting trombone.
That said, I think it helps my tone and attacks if I can hear notes below that, too.
That said, I think it helps my tone and attacks if I can hear notes below that, too.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
I think audiation (added to my vocabulary) is ideally first, followed by an association with the physical aspects of forming the embouchure and anticipating the associated airstream, is what happens.
I think this association is what saves you in instances where you can't really hear yourself when you play, because the note gets lost in the mix, or because the dynamics or even the acoustics mask what you're doing, then you're glad to have the physical sensation of playing the right pitch to fall back on...
Imagine that were the extent of it though, just a physical sensation of producing the right note, but not hearing it: I think we'd find making music very unsatisfying.
I think this association is what saves you in instances where you can't really hear yourself when you play, because the note gets lost in the mix, or because the dynamics or even the acoustics mask what you're doing, then you're glad to have the physical sensation of playing the right pitch to fall back on...
Imagine that were the extent of it though, just a physical sensation of producing the right note, but not hearing it: I think we'd find making music very unsatisfying.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I think whoever said range has something to do with it might be onto something.
A couple weeks ago I was playing a feature at a gig that suddenly shifted from the key of Eb to the key of B, and I had to come in right on the sudden key change with a high B (B4 I guess) and go up to a high E (E5). After hearing the whole tune with Bb and Eb, I failed and clammed both those notes because I just could not hear them before I had to play them.
Sucks. But up there the partials are so close together I cannot do it on feel. I need to hear what I'm going to play in order to be able to play it. An octave lower and I probably would have had no problem.
A couple weeks ago I was playing a feature at a gig that suddenly shifted from the key of Eb to the key of B, and I had to come in right on the sudden key change with a high B (B4 I guess) and go up to a high E (E5). After hearing the whole tune with Bb and Eb, I failed and clammed both those notes because I just could not hear them before I had to play them.
Sucks. But up there the partials are so close together I cannot do it on feel. I need to hear what I'm going to play in order to be able to play it. An octave lower and I probably would have had no problem.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
So back to that other thread about what orchestral players are doing on stage before a show. Anytime Brahms 1 was programmed, you'd see me bring my horn up and play just one note about every 2 or 3 minutes. The sonic context may have been helpful, but I also wanted to have that A locked in like a pitcher slotting a fast ball.
There are a lot of out of nowhere entrance like that in orchestral music, so probably the "classical" players here skew more to having a good kinetic sense of notes to back up their aural sense than those who do more commercial/jazz work.
There are a lot of out of nowhere entrance like that in orchestral music, so probably the "classical" players here skew more to having a good kinetic sense of notes to back up their aural sense than those who do more commercial/jazz work.
- ssking2b
- Posts: 487
- Joined: Sep 29, 2018
we're not talking about hearing a pitch with your ears. It's hearing it INSIDE your head...a skill most good jazz and commercial players have developed. Try playing a solo over changes that seem to follow no logical pattern...that's why jazz player hear the pitch inside their heads.