Surviving a big band
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
After 30 years of avoiding jazz, I find myself playing bass trombone in a big band. I picked up Alan Raph's "Dance Band Reading and Interpretation" to work on my reading and interpretation. That was published in 1962; has interpretation changed much in the last 60 years? Other than just "listen a lot" or "play a lot", what other resources should I study? At the moment, I'm ignoring improvisation, and just looking to be a competent section player.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I think there has been an evolution in interpretation, and depending on what the material is, interpretation may have changed. The old swing big band stuff should still be interpreted the same now, and good bands that specialize in that era try to do it authentically. Less serious bands probably just play the material however they usually play.
As for differences between 1962 and now, I think they would include:
*Less/no vibrato in section playing. And slower vibrato, played only on the ends of notes.
*If there is vibrato it's usually just the lead player, not the section players.
*Modern big band music is played generally more aggressively than the old dance band stuff.
*Parts are harder now, with a bigger range and more dramatic use of bass tbn/bari sax.
*Quarter notes on the beat are short unless marked otherwise.
*There are more "ethnic" grooves now, and a need to learn the peculiarities of each.
And this is a big one...
*Less of a "swing" feel on eights, especially the faster the tempo gets.
Probably the biggest big band "sin" coming from orchestral players is the tendency to play swing eighths like dotted-eighth/sixteenths. Modern swing is a rolling feel, not an up-and-down feel. The time difference should be no faster than a triplet feel, and modernly the trend is to play eighths more even, but with more emphasis on the "off beat" eighths (2nd eighth in each beat).
Also, bass trombones parts are now often written to "pop" more than they used to, and bass trombone players coming from orchestral backgrounds tend not to "pop" enough, and to play short notes too long. In modern big band work, repeated patterned short notes serve a percussive/rhythmic function more than a harmonic or melodic one, and are often duplicated with the snare drum. We need to play them more like the snare drum these days, and I'd say most big band bass trombone players stop those notes with the tongue.
Of course, these are generalizations and there are tons of exceptions. Like, ballads have completely different rules. Bossa novas have yet other rules. Etc. You just have to learn the literature as with any genre.
As for differences between 1962 and now, I think they would include:
*Less/no vibrato in section playing. And slower vibrato, played only on the ends of notes.
*If there is vibrato it's usually just the lead player, not the section players.
*Modern big band music is played generally more aggressively than the old dance band stuff.
*Parts are harder now, with a bigger range and more dramatic use of bass tbn/bari sax.
*Quarter notes on the beat are short unless marked otherwise.
*There are more "ethnic" grooves now, and a need to learn the peculiarities of each.
And this is a big one...
*Less of a "swing" feel on eights, especially the faster the tempo gets.
Probably the biggest big band "sin" coming from orchestral players is the tendency to play swing eighths like dotted-eighth/sixteenths. Modern swing is a rolling feel, not an up-and-down feel. The time difference should be no faster than a triplet feel, and modernly the trend is to play eighths more even, but with more emphasis on the "off beat" eighths (2nd eighth in each beat).
Also, bass trombones parts are now often written to "pop" more than they used to, and bass trombone players coming from orchestral backgrounds tend not to "pop" enough, and to play short notes too long. In modern big band work, repeated patterned short notes serve a percussive/rhythmic function more than a harmonic or melodic one, and are often duplicated with the snare drum. We need to play them more like the snare drum these days, and I'd say most big band bass trombone players stop those notes with the tongue.
Of course, these are generalizations and there are tons of exceptions. Like, ballads have completely different rules. Bossa novas have yet other rules. Etc. You just have to learn the literature as with any genre.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="tbdana"]ballads have completely different rules. Bossa novas have yet other rules. Etc. You just have to learn the literature as with any genre.[/quote]
Right. At the moment, I can't tell the difference between a ballad and a bossa nova, unless it's written at the top of the chart. :) One problem with the common advice to just "listen a lot" is I don't know what I'm hearing. Spotify doesn't have DJs telling you the track you just heard is a "medium funk". Or that the rhythm you just heard is notated a certain way.
Right. At the moment, I can't tell the difference between a ballad and a bossa nova, unless it's written at the top of the chart. :) One problem with the common advice to just "listen a lot" is I don't know what I'm hearing. Spotify doesn't have DJs telling you the track you just heard is a "medium funk". Or that the rhythm you just heard is notated a certain way.
- tim
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Apr 18, 2018
spot on Dana, GR told me once bass trombone only really needs to play full, not loud, even in section work.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Yeah, different styles can get pretty arcane and difficult to tell apart.
A ballad is a ballad is a ballad, and always has been. The bossa nova rhythm is a two-bar pattern derived from samba music, with straight eighths and a "clave" that has either a 2/3 or 3/2 pattern over two bars, but with an afro-cuban feel. LOL! I'm sure that's crystal clear! :D
As for "listen a lot," the only ones I'd recommend you listen to are the lead trombone and lead trumpet and try to imitate them in the moment. When the whole brass section is playing, just do exactly what the lead trumpet does. When the bones are playing, imitate the lead bone player. However, if you're playing unison with the baritone sax, ignore all that and follow him/her instead. That's actually going to be your fastest path to getting with everyone else. And if you're good at imitating the leads, you'll only be off for a couple bars at a time, since so much of big band interpretation is repetitive.
What "kind" of big band are you playing in? Is it an old swing dance band kind, or a modern concert/stage big band style?
A ballad is a ballad is a ballad, and always has been. The bossa nova rhythm is a two-bar pattern derived from samba music, with straight eighths and a "clave" that has either a 2/3 or 3/2 pattern over two bars, but with an afro-cuban feel. LOL! I'm sure that's crystal clear! :D
As for "listen a lot," the only ones I'd recommend you listen to are the lead trombone and lead trumpet and try to imitate them in the moment. When the whole brass section is playing, just do exactly what the lead trumpet does. When the bones are playing, imitate the lead bone player. However, if you're playing unison with the baritone sax, ignore all that and follow him/her instead. That's actually going to be your fastest path to getting with everyone else. And if you're good at imitating the leads, you'll only be off for a couple bars at a time, since so much of big band interpretation is repetitive.
What "kind" of big band are you playing in? Is it an old swing dance band kind, or a modern concert/stage big band style?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="tim"]spot on Dana, GR told me once bass trombone only really needs to play full, not loud, even in section work.[/quote]
I think that's even more true now than it ever was, because the way bass trombone is written modernly is more as a separate bass part than as a true fourth trombone.
And George Roberts never had to play loud, no matter what! He had so much core to his tone that he cut through everything, all the time. Jeff Reynolds has a funny story of sitting in a recording studio with GR, the two of them sharing a mic, and no matter how loud Jeff played he could never be heard over George (and he even moved the mic over to his side and away from George). Jefe talks about take after take trying more and more extreme things to be heard over George, while George wasn't playing loudly at all. :D
I think that's even more true now than it ever was, because the way bass trombone is written modernly is more as a separate bass part than as a true fourth trombone.
And George Roberts never had to play loud, no matter what! He had so much core to his tone that he cut through everything, all the time. Jeff Reynolds has a funny story of sitting in a recording studio with GR, the two of them sharing a mic, and no matter how loud Jeff played he could never be heard over George (and he even moved the mic over to his side and away from George). Jefe talks about take after take trying more and more extreme things to be heard over George, while George wasn't playing loudly at all. :D
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
At the moment, it's a modern stage band. But it's not even a year old, and we're still deciding what we want to be. We meet every few months for a couple rehearsals and a concert. So I need to show up already prepared. I'd prefer weekly, but you take what you can get.
- baBposaune
- Posts: 391
- Joined: Jan 21, 2019
Listen to your lead trombone, trumpet and sax players. Follow their cues for style, articulation, dynamics, etc. If they are good players (and leaders) you will do just fine.
- baBposaune
- Posts: 391
- Joined: Jan 21, 2019
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="tim" post_id="276168" time="1747519757" user_id="3092">
Jeff Reynolds has a funny story of sitting in a recording studio with GR, the two of them sharing a mic, and no matter how loud Jeff played he could never be heard over George (and he even moved the mic over to his side and away from George). Jefe talks about take after take trying more and more extreme things to be heard over George, while George wasn't playing loudly at all. :D[/quote]
As Jeff has told the story many times some other tidbits have come to light. He mentioned that George had a predominantly middle/high overtone mix to his sound. Some have said that George sounded "like a buzz saw" in person, yet had a fat sound on recordings. On the other hand, Jeff had a dark sound that could not "get on" the mic the way GR could. Although, there are recordings of Jeff with the LA Phil where he really gets on the mic, like the Erich Leinsdorf session of the "Dance of the Knights" by Prokofiev. Plenty of core in Jeff's work on that album.</QUOTE>
Jeff Reynolds has a funny story of sitting in a recording studio with GR, the two of them sharing a mic, and no matter how loud Jeff played he could never be heard over George (and he even moved the mic over to his side and away from George). Jefe talks about take after take trying more and more extreme things to be heard over George, while George wasn't playing loudly at all. :D[/quote]
As Jeff has told the story many times some other tidbits have come to light. He mentioned that George had a predominantly middle/high overtone mix to his sound. Some have said that George sounded "like a buzz saw" in person, yet had a fat sound on recordings. On the other hand, Jeff had a dark sound that could not "get on" the mic the way GR could. Although, there are recordings of Jeff with the LA Phil where he really gets on the mic, like the Erich Leinsdorf session of the "Dance of the Knights" by Prokofiev. Plenty of core in Jeff's work on that album.</QUOTE>
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
There is also this: "Surviving" may be an apt term. We're in the final stages now for what will be a 2 hour, and pretty intense, gig in late June. Given some of the pieces we're playing (particularly more "modern" or rock pieces), I'm finding that the rehearsals can be pretty exhausting physically. Don't forget to breathe a lot -- and hydrate. :roll: All that work below the staff (and into and out of it) can be something of a drain.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
You live in the same world as the bari sax. You and the bari sax should be like peanut butter and jelly. Let the bass or electric bass (whatever kind of big band you're in) guide your intonation and overall feel for each piece. The 1st trombone should be synchronizing note endings with the trumpets, but you need to also be synchronizing the more endings with the other bass instruments. Bridge those ending up to your section and let the lead player bridge them down. Note endings and note beginnings are everything.
Play more forward in the mouth. Get rid of any ideas about dark warm sounds -- that thinking leads to fluff. Play clean. Play like a nice piece of Icelandic chocolate, not like a Lindt truffle.
Mmm
If you listen to the bass and bari, you'll get it.
Play more forward in the mouth. Get rid of any ideas about dark warm sounds -- that thinking leads to fluff. Play clean. Play like a nice piece of Icelandic chocolate, not like a Lindt truffle.
Mmm
If you listen to the bass and bari, you'll get it.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Good imagery there. On three of our current pieces I'm actually playing the Bari sax part (well, a lot of it) -- since there's no 4th trombone part and it works well to double the Bari in the bass passages. And yeah, it's a bass trombone -- shouldn't try to sound like a tuba.
- mgladdish
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Oct 10, 2021
Have a listen to some exemplar recordings and focus specifically on how the bass trombone works. Their phrasing, tone, vib, and balance within the section. Others will be able to provide canonical recordings, but one of my favourites is Dave Stuart’s playing on Kenny Wheeler’s albums. It’s such a huge warm sound and leads the band from the bottom.
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]You live in the same world as the bari sax. You and the bari sax should be like peanut butter and jelly. Let the bass or electric bass (whatever kind of big band you're in) guide your intonation and overall feel for each piece.
If you listen to the bass and bari, you'll get it.[/quote]
seconding this.
I would describe more of the writing as "gestural". At least in fast passages, the idea is not to make every note speak equally, but maybe ghost some of the little notes to keep things moving.
Stay on top of the beat, none of that glorious chord playing wafting across from the back of the hall.
And mostly, enjoy it. There's nothing like a good big band in full roar.
If you listen to the bass and bari, you'll get it.[/quote]
seconding this.
I would describe more of the writing as "gestural". At least in fast passages, the idea is not to make every note speak equally, but maybe ghost some of the little notes to keep things moving.
Stay on top of the beat, none of that glorious chord playing wafting across from the back of the hall.
And mostly, enjoy it. There's nothing like a good big band in full roar.
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Lot of good stuff on tune feel and such.
One aspect I don't see is "figures." To me, "figures" was a BIG takeaway from Raph's book.
And getting the idea of "figures" was pretty central to the experiences Raph was translating into the book.
In my one interview I got (when working on a Duo Gravis thing) with Alan he noted the kinds of work he was doing on both bass and tenor in NYC. When he was working on this book he was already working WAY outside the "traditional swing" zone. He mentioned showing up to do back up for some R&B or rock and just being given changes. The horn players would ad-lib back-up riffs.
Regardless of the style, "It ain't what you do (it's the way that you do it)" was what I got from Alan. If you listen to some flavor of latin and focus on getting the sequential eighths just right you might succeed. If you follow Alan's direction and listen for the figures you may be more likely to succeed.
What worked for me was working through Raph's figures in his book, then trying them in different styles, then making up my own exercises that followed idioms not represented in the rhythmic patterns.
But that was just me as a know-it-all 18 year old fresh into Navy Music School :)
One aspect I don't see is "figures." To me, "figures" was a BIG takeaway from Raph's book.
And getting the idea of "figures" was pretty central to the experiences Raph was translating into the book.
In my one interview I got (when working on a Duo Gravis thing) with Alan he noted the kinds of work he was doing on both bass and tenor in NYC. When he was working on this book he was already working WAY outside the "traditional swing" zone. He mentioned showing up to do back up for some R&B or rock and just being given changes. The horn players would ad-lib back-up riffs.
Regardless of the style, "It ain't what you do (it's the way that you do it)" was what I got from Alan. If you listen to some flavor of latin and focus on getting the sequential eighths just right you might succeed. If you follow Alan's direction and listen for the figures you may be more likely to succeed.
What worked for me was working through Raph's figures in his book, then trying them in different styles, then making up my own exercises that followed idioms not represented in the rhythmic patterns.
But that was just me as a know-it-all 18 year old fresh into Navy Music School :)
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
A lot of transitioning bass trombonists tend to let the volume of held notes die toward the end. Don't do this unless the phrase calls for it. The default note shape should be the same as the lead trumpet, which is typically strongly present for the entire duration of a note, with a clean cutoff.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]A lot of transitioning bass trombonists tend to let the volume of held notes die toward the end.[/quote]
Especially if they've just finished playing several lines of double valve notes below the staff, and then holding a tied double valve low B across four measures.
Especially if they've just finished playing several lines of double valve notes below the staff, and then holding a tied double valve low B across four measures.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
This is a ballad on my album. Holding those last four bars without dying out by the end was fun. At least it wasn't fortissimo, but it was 60 beats per minute.
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi all.
According to OP , it seems to me that AtomicClock does not have so much experience of Big Band playing , if not at all .
So , of course one have to follow the leader , playing right value on long tones , etc , but these very good advices are for a more advanced player , in my opinion.
Right now , I think that he have to learn how to recognize the various rhythmic patterns he find on the sheet , and play it in the correct way .
For a player that have not so much experience in this kind of music , just that could be pretty hard .
One have to master the Jazz idiom , to play in big band .
Could be difficult just playing all togheter in a perfect way an up beat 8th note followed by rest , in a jazz big band . If only one player miss the right way to do this , he ruins all the thing .
In my opinion , one good thing can be to listen to a recording of a tune , looking at the bass trbn sheet to hear how the player and the section are performing the written music (of course , this is not always possible , expecially if the band is playing originals charts not yet recorded) .
Anyway , it takes times and experience , as for every thing !
So , one can just try to play at his best , be prepared , and look for gradual improvements.
Regards
Giancarlo
According to OP , it seems to me that AtomicClock does not have so much experience of Big Band playing , if not at all .
So , of course one have to follow the leader , playing right value on long tones , etc , but these very good advices are for a more advanced player , in my opinion.
Right now , I think that he have to learn how to recognize the various rhythmic patterns he find on the sheet , and play it in the correct way .
For a player that have not so much experience in this kind of music , just that could be pretty hard .
One have to master the Jazz idiom , to play in big band .
Could be difficult just playing all togheter in a perfect way an up beat 8th note followed by rest , in a jazz big band . If only one player miss the right way to do this , he ruins all the thing .
In my opinion , one good thing can be to listen to a recording of a tune , looking at the bass trbn sheet to hear how the player and the section are performing the written music (of course , this is not always possible , expecially if the band is playing originals charts not yet recorded) .
Anyway , it takes times and experience , as for every thing !
So , one can just try to play at his best , be prepared , and look for gradual improvements.
Regards
Giancarlo
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I can do that pedal Bb at 'p' in that passage -- though sometimes keeping the pitch steady that long is a challenge for me. But it's the long lower pedal or double valve notes I find to be killers in pieces that otherwise have taken a lot out of you before you get to them -- and may be notated as 'mf' or 'f'. And something like the last couple of lines of the Nestico arrangement of "On the Sunny side of the Street" is a whole lot of fun. I don't really interpret it as tied, but a phrase marking, and just gulp air as necessary -- because it seems kind of important to not just pass out before you can play the last two measures. :roll:
Articulation is particularly important when bopping in and out of the double valve pitches, particularly at fairly high tempos. Don't mush the attacks or you'll sound like a sloppy tuba player with bad tone.
Articulation is particularly important when bopping in and out of the double valve pitches, particularly at fairly high tempos. Don't mush the attacks or you'll sound like a sloppy tuba player with bad tone.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]And something like the last couple of lines of the Nestico arrangement of "On the Sunny side of the Street" is a whole lot of fun. I don't really interpret it as tied, but a phrase marking, and just gulp air as necessary -- because it seems kind of important to not just pass out before you can play the last two measures.[/quote]
Funny you should mention that. I just looked at my Nestico "Sunny Side" Trombone 4 chart and don't understand the last measure, which has 4½ beats! (2 quarter notes and an eighth note tied to a half note! :idk: )
Funny you should mention that. I just looked at my Nestico "Sunny Side" Trombone 4 chart and don't understand the last measure, which has 4½ beats! (2 quarter notes and an eighth note tied to a half note! :idk: )
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
So there's an extra eighth note ... So WHAT? Ya gotta adapt. What are you, some kind of academic theorist?
...
Which all goes to say that the extra eighth note doesn't matter since it's buried in the terminal hold. Are you gonna question SAMMY NESTICO????
Okay ... somehow I never noticed that -- probably suffering from hypoxia at that point. :redface: :lol: :lol:
Maybe there's a tail missing from the second eighth note?
A lot of the time I don't count big band stuff as I do concert music. I just listen to what the rest of the section is playing and do it -- unless it seems obviously wrong to me. And then I speak up. The other section members have been playing in the band for 20 years. :roll:
...
Which all goes to say that the extra eighth note doesn't matter since it's buried in the terminal hold. Are you gonna question SAMMY NESTICO????
Okay ... somehow I never noticed that -- probably suffering from hypoxia at that point. :redface: :lol: :lol:
Maybe there's a tail missing from the second eighth note?
A lot of the time I don't count big band stuff as I do concert music. I just listen to what the rest of the section is playing and do it -- unless it seems obviously wrong to me. And then I speak up. The other section members have been playing in the band for 20 years. :roll:
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]
Funny you should mention that. I just looked at my Nestico "Sunny Side" Trombone 4 chart and don't understand the last measure, which has 4½ beats! (2 quarter notes and an eighth note tied to a half note! :idk: )[/quote]
It would make sense as a grace note. Sometimes scoops are notated that way.
Funny you should mention that. I just looked at my Nestico "Sunny Side" Trombone 4 chart and don't understand the last measure, which has 4½ beats! (2 quarter notes and an eighth note tied to a half note! :idk: )[/quote]
It would make sense as a grace note. Sometimes scoops are notated that way.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
It could be that it's the first quarter note that should be the eighth note. The Dave Wolpe arrangement of "Blueberry Hill" ends in exactly that rhythm as a bass trombone/bass tag. And the initial eighth note there has a line under it, with a dot under the following quarter note, and then the eighth tied to the half note fermata.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Here's the end of the Nestico "Sunny Side of the Street" Trombone 4 chart.
Not a grace note. Has to be a typo. :horror:
I'll have to check the other trombone & bari sax charts to see how they end. :idk:
Not a grace note. Has to be a typo. :horror:
I'll have to check the other trombone & bari sax charts to see how they end. :idk:
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi .
@Posaunus : I think that in the last bar , the first note , Fb , is an 8th note . So , 8th note , quarter note , 8th note tied to a half note .
Regards
Giancarlo
@Posaunus : I think that in the last bar , the first note , Fb , is an 8th note . So , 8th note , quarter note , 8th note tied to a half note .
Regards
Giancarlo
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="GGJazz"]Hi .
@Posaunus : I think that in the last bar , the first note , Fb , is an 8th note . So , 8th note , quarter note , 8th note tied to a half note .
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
Yeah. The accents agree with that too.
@Posaunus : I think that in the last bar , the first note , Fb , is an 8th note . So , 8th note , quarter note , 8th note tied to a half note .
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
Yeah. The accents agree with that too.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I've always had a love-hate relationship with big bands. I was one of those people who didn't spring from the womb with jazz in my blood. In high school the regional bands all had jazz bands, and they had the better players, but I didn't understand it at all. I really struggled, and I felt like none of my strengths got used in a jazz band. I preferred the concert band where there was a lot of playing I "got", or the orchestra, where the playing seemed more important, even if there was less of it. Then 4 years in the navy, and by the end, they had kind of beaten some of the big band thing into my thick head.
It has taken a while but now I don't automatically embarrass myself when I sight read big band tunes.
My experience has been that with the better bands, there is inevitably some sort of personality conflict usually due to the egos involved. The bands that aren't as good are just less fulfilling to play in. I get to play with both where I am now.
Last night with the low-end band, we played a dance in a live room with a lot of old people where we had to keep the volume low. Because of that, the band energy was just dead. The drummer was unsteady, the bass was wandering all over the place, the keyboards were off on a different planet, and the trumpet section (for some reason we had 6 trumpets on a low volume gig) couldn't hit a note without splitting it into pieces. And as 4th bone, all I could hear was 3rd bone, not 1st or 2nd.
And then at the rehearsal for the high end band, the leader (electric bass player) keeps hounding the horns to play softer and softer. If you go out in the audience, all you hear is ebass. Of course.
So it's hard for me to love either experience. I keep doing it for the music and performance opportunities, and to meet people to recruit for my quartet and quintet.
It has taken a while but now I don't automatically embarrass myself when I sight read big band tunes.
My experience has been that with the better bands, there is inevitably some sort of personality conflict usually due to the egos involved. The bands that aren't as good are just less fulfilling to play in. I get to play with both where I am now.
Last night with the low-end band, we played a dance in a live room with a lot of old people where we had to keep the volume low. Because of that, the band energy was just dead. The drummer was unsteady, the bass was wandering all over the place, the keyboards were off on a different planet, and the trumpet section (for some reason we had 6 trumpets on a low volume gig) couldn't hit a note without splitting it into pieces. And as 4th bone, all I could hear was 3rd bone, not 1st or 2nd.
And then at the rehearsal for the high end band, the leader (electric bass player) keeps hounding the horns to play softer and softer. If you go out in the audience, all you hear is ebass. Of course.
So it's hard for me to love either experience. I keep doing it for the music and performance opportunities, and to meet people to recruit for my quartet and quintet.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]...we're still deciding what we want to be.[/quote]
That's a very dangerous state in which to be. Unless you have a strong leader with a clear vision of what the band wants to be, you're likely to end up with multiple, mutually incompatible, visions.
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. And the coffee mug.
That's a very dangerous state in which to be. Unless you have a strong leader with a clear vision of what the band wants to be, you're likely to end up with multiple, mutually incompatible, visions.
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. And the coffee mug.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="AtomicClock" post_id="276171" time="1747520499" user_id="17161">...we're still deciding what we want to be.[/quote]
That's a very dangerous state in which to be. Unless you have a strong leader with a clear vision of what the band wants to be, you're likely to end up with multiple, mutually incompatible, visions.
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. And the coffee mug.
</QUOTE>
Yet, that's what a lot of "community" big bands are like, and it works for them. They're basically all things to all people. They will often be able to do swing/oldie concerts, as well as more modern performances based around Sammy Nestico and other typical big band charts, adding in some rock, funk, and soul, or other genres. These kinds of bands don't develop an identity so much as shape shift for whatever the current concert or theme might be.
That's a very dangerous state in which to be. Unless you have a strong leader with a clear vision of what the band wants to be, you're likely to end up with multiple, mutually incompatible, visions.
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. And the coffee mug.
</QUOTE>
Yet, that's what a lot of "community" big bands are like, and it works for them. They're basically all things to all people. They will often be able to do swing/oldie concerts, as well as more modern performances based around Sammy Nestico and other typical big band charts, adding in some rock, funk, and soul, or other genres. These kinds of bands don't develop an identity so much as shape shift for whatever the current concert or theme might be.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]Yet, that's what a lot of "community" big bands are like, and it works for them. They're basically all things to all people.[/quote]
Well ... maybe all things to all people within a particular (local and somewhat narrow) demographic. An alternative with some of these bands is that the "vision" for the band just isn't a very good one (or maybe just isn't executed well), and even with some excellent players, such a band's performances may be tedious and dull. I've sat through some of those as an audience member -- although not the entire performances, to be honest.
True, and I don't think a "community" big band needs the kind of "identity" that a touring professional big band does. It has very different goals, and its audiences will be different as well. I wouldn't say that they "shape shift" so much as that whatever shape they have is somewhat broad and fuzzy while fitting their local demographic. They're not trying to sell recordings or videos, or compete with other touring groups. And they're not trying to attract audiences by offering something that's "distinct" or "unique". They can't (for a variety of reasons). And part of the "shifting" is just what they do for each group they manage to get a gig with. Holiday concerts are among the biggest draws, and performances at various "adult communities" or "senior living centers" are perhaps the most common venues generally. Septagenarians and octogenarians often make up 90% of the audience, and they have expectations. Ya gotta play to the crowd.
Well ... maybe all things to all people within a particular (local and somewhat narrow) demographic. An alternative with some of these bands is that the "vision" for the band just isn't a very good one (or maybe just isn't executed well), and even with some excellent players, such a band's performances may be tedious and dull. I've sat through some of those as an audience member -- although not the entire performances, to be honest.
These kinds of bands don't develop an identity so much as shape shift for whatever the current concert or theme might be.
True, and I don't think a "community" big band needs the kind of "identity" that a touring professional big band does. It has very different goals, and its audiences will be different as well. I wouldn't say that they "shape shift" so much as that whatever shape they have is somewhat broad and fuzzy while fitting their local demographic. They're not trying to sell recordings or videos, or compete with other touring groups. And they're not trying to attract audiences by offering something that's "distinct" or "unique". They can't (for a variety of reasons). And part of the "shifting" is just what they do for each group they manage to get a gig with. Holiday concerts are among the biggest draws, and performances at various "adult communities" or "senior living centers" are perhaps the most common venues generally. Septagenarians and octogenarians often make up 90% of the audience, and they have expectations. Ya gotta play to the crowd.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]Ya gotta play to the crowd.[/quote]
Actually, the problem I usually see is that there's a faction that doesn't want to play to the crowd. They want to play what they consider "real jazz" when the gigs are for crowds that want swing and post-swing big band vocals. You don't get many repeat gigs that way.
Actually, the problem I usually see is that there's a faction that doesn't want to play to the crowd. They want to play what they consider "real jazz" when the gigs are for crowds that want swing and post-swing big band vocals. You don't get many repeat gigs that way.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="ghmerrill" post_id="276356" time="1747669474" user_id="2941">Ya gotta play to the crowd.[/quote]
Actually, the problem I usually see is that there's a faction that doesn't want to play to the crowd. They want to play what they consider "real jazz" when the gigs are for crowds that want swing and post-swing big band vocals. You don't get many repeat gigs that way.
</QUOTE>
You have to ask yourself who the band is for. Is it for the audiences, or for the players? Sometimes the audience is there just to give the band members someone to play for.
Actually, the problem I usually see is that there's a faction that doesn't want to play to the crowd. They want to play what they consider "real jazz" when the gigs are for crowds that want swing and post-swing big band vocals. You don't get many repeat gigs that way.
</QUOTE>
You have to ask yourself who the band is for. Is it for the audiences, or for the players? Sometimes the audience is there just to give the band members someone to play for.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]You have to ask yourself who the band is for. Is it for the audiences, or for the players? Sometimes the audience is there just to give the band members someone to play for.[/quote]
More generally, this is true of a broad range of "community" music organizations. Thinking back ... say 30 years or so ... it seems to me that this didn't used to be so pronounced. There are still community bands and orchestras that don't fit this model (which I think of as the "New Horizons model" and is often a "pay to play" model), but I've seen what used to be excellent community bands fall into it over the past 20 years.
Maybe that's just part of a kind of "natural cycle" for such organizations, or maybe it reflects a change in how the communities (and their local government and support programs) have changed. But for some years (back in the 90s) I was a member of a very successful and active community band (started in the '70s) that played challenging and interesting music, performed regularly at public events in all seasons, and had rehearsal venues provided by local schools -- with no "dues" required from members. Now it's a pay to play collection of mostly old people which plays a few fixed holiday concerts each year and has had to move to a rather dreary rehearsal venue. A big problem in that particular case has been a declining lack of competent and active leadership, but the surrounding environment for such organizations has changed a bit as well.
More generally, this is true of a broad range of "community" music organizations. Thinking back ... say 30 years or so ... it seems to me that this didn't used to be so pronounced. There are still community bands and orchestras that don't fit this model (which I think of as the "New Horizons model" and is often a "pay to play" model), but I've seen what used to be excellent community bands fall into it over the past 20 years.
Maybe that's just part of a kind of "natural cycle" for such organizations, or maybe it reflects a change in how the communities (and their local government and support programs) have changed. But for some years (back in the 90s) I was a member of a very successful and active community band (started in the '70s) that played challenging and interesting music, performed regularly at public events in all seasons, and had rehearsal venues provided by local schools -- with no "dues" required from members. Now it's a pay to play collection of mostly old people which plays a few fixed holiday concerts each year and has had to move to a rather dreary rehearsal venue. A big problem in that particular case has been a declining lack of competent and active leadership, but the surrounding environment for such organizations has changed a bit as well.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Again, it seems to me that some bands have "aspirations" that they are the next Gordon Goodwin or Akioshi-Tabackin band and want to play at a very high level with very average musicians. These are the ones that are problematic: the good musicians feel they are being dragged back by the average and the average feel that the music is too difficult. I played in a few of these and generally either got cut or just lost interest. I don't miss any of them.
I also played in the opposite. The bands were all older players, many ex-music teachers. The arrangements we played were "stocks" and we played in senior centers for dancers. The key players were the 1st Tenor, the drummer, and the pianist. Everybody else was more-or-less window dressing (even though we all played solos at times). Easy arrangements with an appreciative audience creates a very happy gig.
I also played in the opposite. The bands were all older players, many ex-music teachers. The arrangements we played were "stocks" and we played in senior centers for dancers. The key players were the 1st Tenor, the drummer, and the pianist. Everybody else was more-or-less window dressing (even though we all played solos at times). Easy arrangements with an appreciative audience creates a very happy gig.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="276357" time="1747672519" user_id="119">
Actually, the problem I usually see is that there's a faction that doesn't want to play to the crowd. They want to play what they consider "real jazz" when the gigs are for crowds that want swing and post-swing big band vocals. You don't get many repeat gigs that way.[/quote]
You have to ask yourself who the band is for. Is it for the audiences, or for the players? Sometimes the audience is there just to give the band members someone to play for.
</QUOTE>
The ones who wanted to play "real jazz" were also the ones who wanted to want to get paid. I didn't say it made sense.
[quote="ghmerrill"]Maybe that's just part of a kind of "natural cycle" for such organizations, or maybe it reflects a change in how the communities (and their local government and support programs) have changed. But for some years (back in the 90s) I was a member of a very successful and active community band (started in the '70s) that played challenging and interesting music, performed regularly at public events in all seasons, and had rehearsal venues provided by local schools -- with no "dues" required from members. Now it's a pay to play collection of mostly old people which plays a few fixed holiday concerts each year and has had to move to a rather dreary rehearsal venue. A big problem in that particular case has been a declining lack of competent and active leadership, but the surrounding environment for such organizations has changed a bit as well.[/quote]
More than bit, at least around here. We have to pay rent to the school district for our rehearsal space (we used to get it for free). We have to pay for liability insurance (we used to be covered under the city's umbrella). We had to buy a trailer to haul our stuff (we used to have access to a city truck). Most of the "concert in the park" series have all disappeared completely or only want cover bands. Annual dues were $50 back in 1987; they're $125 now, which hasn't quite kept pace with inflation, let alone covering all of the additional costs.
Actually, the problem I usually see is that there's a faction that doesn't want to play to the crowd. They want to play what they consider "real jazz" when the gigs are for crowds that want swing and post-swing big band vocals. You don't get many repeat gigs that way.[/quote]
You have to ask yourself who the band is for. Is it for the audiences, or for the players? Sometimes the audience is there just to give the band members someone to play for.
</QUOTE>
The ones who wanted to play "real jazz" were also the ones who wanted to want to get paid. I didn't say it made sense.
[quote="ghmerrill"]Maybe that's just part of a kind of "natural cycle" for such organizations, or maybe it reflects a change in how the communities (and their local government and support programs) have changed. But for some years (back in the 90s) I was a member of a very successful and active community band (started in the '70s) that played challenging and interesting music, performed regularly at public events in all seasons, and had rehearsal venues provided by local schools -- with no "dues" required from members. Now it's a pay to play collection of mostly old people which plays a few fixed holiday concerts each year and has had to move to a rather dreary rehearsal venue. A big problem in that particular case has been a declining lack of competent and active leadership, but the surrounding environment for such organizations has changed a bit as well.[/quote]
More than bit, at least around here. We have to pay rent to the school district for our rehearsal space (we used to get it for free). We have to pay for liability insurance (we used to be covered under the city's umbrella). We had to buy a trailer to haul our stuff (we used to have access to a city truck). Most of the "concert in the park" series have all disappeared completely or only want cover bands. Annual dues were $50 back in 1987; they're $125 now, which hasn't quite kept pace with inflation, let alone covering all of the additional costs.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]The ones who wanted to play "real jazz" were also the ones who wanted to want to get paid. I didn't say it made sense.[/quote]
Do you find that many of those are delusional? And are trumpet players?
Yes, I agree. And other factors have been at work. For example, it used to be commonplace for a public school principal (in collaboration with the instrumental music teacher) to provide the band with permission to rehearse in the band room on a weekly basis. More recently such permission has become virtually impossible to come by for several different reasons -- including the cost of janitorial staff (which the school district -- not necessarily the principal -- insists on considering), and security issues (to ensure that no "unauthorized" personnel have easy access to the school, and to insure that the school is secured after rehearsals). Individual school principals and band directors may be very open to having a community band rehearse, and even give performances, in their buildings, but now their hands are typically tied at the district level.
The only really successfully housed community bands and orchestras I know of now are ones working closely with, and under the auspices of, municipalities.
Do you find that many of those are delusional? And are trumpet players?
More than bit, at least around here.
Yes, I agree. And other factors have been at work. For example, it used to be commonplace for a public school principal (in collaboration with the instrumental music teacher) to provide the band with permission to rehearse in the band room on a weekly basis. More recently such permission has become virtually impossible to come by for several different reasons -- including the cost of janitorial staff (which the school district -- not necessarily the principal -- insists on considering), and security issues (to ensure that no "unauthorized" personnel have easy access to the school, and to insure that the school is secured after rehearsals). Individual school principals and band directors may be very open to having a community band rehearse, and even give performances, in their buildings, but now their hands are typically tied at the district level.
The only really successfully housed community bands and orchestras I know of now are ones working closely with, and under the auspices of, municipalities.
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]Here's the end of the Nestico "Sunny Side of the Street" Trombone 4 chart.
Not a grace note. Has to be a typo. :horror:
I'll have to check the other trombone & bari sax charts to see how they end. :idk:[/quote]
It's a misprint in the part. Here are the last couple of bars from the score.
-- Andy in OKC
Not a grace note. Has to be a typo. :horror:
I'll have to check the other trombone & bari sax charts to see how they end. :idk:[/quote]
It's a misprint in the part. Here are the last couple of bars from the score.
-- Andy in OKC
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="afugate"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="276284" time="1747606221" user_id="158">
Here's the end of the Nestico "Sunny Side of the Street" Trombone 4 chart.
Not a grace note. Has to be a typo. :horror:[/quote]
It's a misprint in the part. Here are the last couple of bars from the score.
-- Andy in OKC
</QUOTE>
Thanks, Andy. Just as I expected!
Here's the end of the Nestico "Sunny Side of the Street" Trombone 4 chart.
Not a grace note. Has to be a typo. :horror:[/quote]
It's a misprint in the part. Here are the last couple of bars from the score.
-- Andy in OKC
</QUOTE>
Thanks, Andy. Just as I expected!
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
That's great -- thanks. I don't have access to the score and was wondering how many parts have that. Do you know if it's just a misprint in the bass trombone part -- or elsewhere in individual parts? I'll check on that tonight at rehearsal, but just curious right now.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
[quote="AtomicClock"]After 30 years of avoiding jazz, I find myself playing bass trombone in a big band. I picked up Alan Raph's "Dance Band Reading and Interpretation" to work on my reading and interpretation. That was published in 1962; has interpretation changed much in the last 60 years? Other than just "listen a lot" or "play a lot", what other resources should I study? At the moment, I'm ignoring improvisation, and just looking to be a competent section player.[/quote]
It's a great book, the only thing I would say is that <B>notation </B> is now all over the map, what was understood without having to notate it all (like the default of quarter notes being short), in old charts, they didn't usually write such things down, I assume because they knew the people playing it didn't need explicit instructions for everything.
But...get a big band where everyone has his own take on how to phrase, and an inability for everyone to follow the lead player, and the lead alto, trumpet and trombone not being on the same page, and you will have a very average big band.
It's a great book, the only thing I would say is that <B>notation </B> is now all over the map, what was understood without having to notate it all (like the default of quarter notes being short), in old charts, they didn't usually write such things down, I assume because they knew the people playing it didn't need explicit instructions for everything.
But...get a big band where everyone has his own take on how to phrase, and an inability for everyone to follow the lead player, and the lead alto, trumpet and trombone not being on the same page, and you will have a very average big band.
- slipperyslide
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mar 17, 2023
[quote="ghmerrill"]That's great -- thanks. I don't have access to the score and was wondering how many parts have that. Do you know if it's just a misprint in the bass trombone part -- or elsewhere in individual parts? I'll check on that tonight at rehearsal, but just curious right now.[/quote]
Just the bass trom - seems every other part has it right!
Maybe Sammy had lost oxygen on those last few bars too?
Just the bass trom - seems every other part has it right!
Maybe Sammy had lost oxygen on those last few bars too?
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="slipperyslide"]Just the bass trom - seems every other part has it right![/quote]
Yeah, I checked that in the other parts too. A little weird, but just a glitch.
Yeah, I checked that in the other parts too. A little weird, but just a glitch.
- u_2bobone
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
Trying to understand "tbdana"s description of how to interpret certain styles of Big Band charts reminds me of my first encounter with Leonard Bernstein's "West Side Story" in an orchestral version. It was notated exactly as he wished it to be interpreted rhythmically and proved to be incredibly difficult to play. Those of us with any experience in playing in different styles would have found it much easier to see it notated it in normal jazz style and leave the interpretation to the player, but there it was in all its complicated glory !
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="2bobone"]It was notated exactly as he wished it to be interpreted rhythmically and proved to be incredibly difficult to play.[/quote]
Contrast that with the special day in band class, when the director has to explain swing 8ths to a roomful of children. "Why don't they just write what they want us to play?" was on everyone's lips.
Contrast that with the special day in band class, when the director has to explain swing 8ths to a roomful of children. "Why don't they just write what they want us to play?" was on everyone's lips.
- RustBeltBass
- Posts: 382
- Joined: Jul 17, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I think there has been an evolution in interpretation, and depending on what the material is, interpretation may have changed. The old swing big band stuff should still be interpreted the same now, and good bands that specialize in that era try to do it authentically. Less serious bands probably just play the material however they usually play.
As for differences between 1962 and now, I think they would include:
*Less/no vibrato in section playing. And slower vibrato, played only on the ends of notes.
*If there is vibrato it's usually just the lead player, not the section players.
*Modern big band music is played generally more aggressively than the old dance band stuff.
*Parts are harder now, with a bigger range and more dramatic use of bass tbn/bari sax.
*Quarter notes on the beat are short unless marked otherwise.
*There are more "ethnic" grooves now, and a need to learn the peculiarities of each.
And this is a big one...
*Less of a "swing" feel on eights, especially the faster the tempo gets.
Probably the biggest big band "sin" coming from orchestral players is the tendency to play swing eighths like dotted-eighth/sixteenths. Modern swing is a rolling feel, not an up-and-down feel. The time difference should be no faster than a triplet feel, and modernly the trend is to play eighths more even, but with more emphasis on the "off beat" eighths (2nd eighth in each beat).
Also, bass trombones parts are now often written to "pop" more than they used to, and bass trombone players coming from orchestral backgrounds tend not to "pop" enough, and to play short notes too long. In modern big band work, repeated patterned short notes serve a percussive/rhythmic function more than a harmonic or melodic one, and are often duplicated with the snare drum. We need to play them more like the snare drum these days, and I'd say most big band bass trombone players stop those notes with the tongue.
Of course, these are generalizations and there are tons of exceptions. Like, ballads have completely different rules. Bossa novas have yet other rules. Etc. You just have to learn the literature as with any genre.[/quote]
Thank you for this, I wish I saw this kind of content more often, very helpful !!!
As for differences between 1962 and now, I think they would include:
*Less/no vibrato in section playing. And slower vibrato, played only on the ends of notes.
*If there is vibrato it's usually just the lead player, not the section players.
*Modern big band music is played generally more aggressively than the old dance band stuff.
*Parts are harder now, with a bigger range and more dramatic use of bass tbn/bari sax.
*Quarter notes on the beat are short unless marked otherwise.
*There are more "ethnic" grooves now, and a need to learn the peculiarities of each.
And this is a big one...
*Less of a "swing" feel on eights, especially the faster the tempo gets.
Probably the biggest big band "sin" coming from orchestral players is the tendency to play swing eighths like dotted-eighth/sixteenths. Modern swing is a rolling feel, not an up-and-down feel. The time difference should be no faster than a triplet feel, and modernly the trend is to play eighths more even, but with more emphasis on the "off beat" eighths (2nd eighth in each beat).
Also, bass trombones parts are now often written to "pop" more than they used to, and bass trombone players coming from orchestral backgrounds tend not to "pop" enough, and to play short notes too long. In modern big band work, repeated patterned short notes serve a percussive/rhythmic function more than a harmonic or melodic one, and are often duplicated with the snare drum. We need to play them more like the snare drum these days, and I'd say most big band bass trombone players stop those notes with the tongue.
Of course, these are generalizations and there are tons of exceptions. Like, ballads have completely different rules. Bossa novas have yet other rules. Etc. You just have to learn the literature as with any genre.[/quote]
Thank you for this, I wish I saw this kind of content more often, very helpful !!!
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="RustBeltBass"]I'd say most big band bass trombone players stop those notes with the tongue.[/quote]
Why? Am I missing something here? In the various instruments I've played, I've never stopped notes with my tongue. In fact, I'm pretty sure I was taught not to do this, except maybe for some "special effect" (although that would be with woodwinds like flute and saxophone :roll: ). But I've never done it with tuba either.
Is this done to basically "pop" the end of a note? That's not what I think of as "popping". Am I totally wrong about this?
Why? Am I missing something here? In the various instruments I've played, I've never stopped notes with my tongue. In fact, I'm pretty sure I was taught not to do this, except maybe for some "special effect" (although that would be with woodwinds like flute and saxophone :roll: ). But I've never done it with tuba either.
Is this done to basically "pop" the end of a note? That's not what I think of as "popping". Am I totally wrong about this?
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
To play short notes in/below the staff that fit with the short notes that small-bore tenors are playing above the staff, I will tongue-stop so that my notes don't hang over, particularly if the dynamic is mf or less and the style is latin or needs to be "crisp".
There is an entire flock of pedants who say, "that's wrong/bad, never do that, only bad players do that.". If they had to play the bass bone part on a bass bone, I bet they would hang over.
There is an entire flock of pedants who say, "that's wrong/bad, never do that, only bad players do that.". If they had to play the bass bone part on a bass bone, I bet they would hang over.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Well, I'm pretty sure I don't hang over -- though this does require practice and effort. I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of bass trombonists who don't hang over and don't use tongue stops. I've just been trying to figure out whether tongue-stopping was felt to provide some additional effect for some specific purpose. I don't take a moral position on the good or evil of tongue-stopping, or suggest that the tongue-stoppers are somehow inferior players in any way. I do think that tongue stopping may be "easier", and I don't know that it's detrimental in any way. But it's just an approach I never developed in other instruments (including tuba, and maybe excepting flute).
Tongue stopping is used in other instruments to achieve a specific effect. You can use it in flute to achieve a "percussive" effect that's otherwise not really possible to get. I was just wondering if that's why it's being used in bass trombone (Dana' remarks kind of suggest this). But your remarks about not "hanging over" don't suggest that the dramatic percussive effect is what the primary goal is. :? I suppose different players use it for different reasons. I guess I'll try it for the percussive effect and see how that works.
Tongue stopping is used in other instruments to achieve a specific effect. You can use it in flute to achieve a "percussive" effect that's otherwise not really possible to get. I was just wondering if that's why it's being used in bass trombone (Dana' remarks kind of suggest this). But your remarks about not "hanging over" don't suggest that the dramatic percussive effect is what the primary goal is. :? I suppose different players use it for different reasons. I guess I'll try it for the percussive effect and see how that works.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Yes, I did talk about it for percussive effect in big bands. But it's also true that it helps in not hanging over. Plus, it's an overall crisper sound to the note.
I hear pedants constantly repeating by rote how evil it is and what a horrible player you must be, with poor morals and a penchant for uncontrolled drooling, should you ever stop a note with the tongue. This is nonsense. I am a proud tongue-stopper in several situations. It's the right way to play in those. And it's a simple fact that you cannot get the same crisp ending to a note without using the tongue.
I liken the rule of not stopping notes with the tongue to the rule in English about always avoiding alliteration. It's a fine rule, until you grow enough to learn when breaking it is proper and effective.
I hear pedants constantly repeating by rote how evil it is and what a horrible player you must be, with poor morals and a penchant for uncontrolled drooling, should you ever stop a note with the tongue. This is nonsense. I am a proud tongue-stopper in several situations. It's the right way to play in those. And it's a simple fact that you cannot get the same crisp ending to a note without using the tongue.
I liken the rule of not stopping notes with the tongue to the rule in English about always avoiding alliteration. It's a fine rule, until you grow enough to learn when breaking it is proper and effective.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I hear pedants constantly repeating by rote how evil it is and what a horrible player you must be, with poor morals and a penchant for uncontrolled drooling, should you ever stop a note with the tongue.[/quote]
Going back through the increasingly dense mists of time ... I seem to recall that the prohibition on tongue stopping (at least when I was playing the saxophone) was largely on the grounds that it was a bad habit because it would inhibit your speed in fast passages -- like using a finger to index 3rd position on a trombone. Drooling could be good -- it keeps the reed moist and flexible.
I think there's room for some dispute here, depending on what "crisp" may be taken to mean, but it gets esoteric.
I liken the rule of not stopping notes with the tongue to the rule in English about always avoiding alliteration. It's a fine rule, until you grow enough to learn when breaking it is proper and effective.
[/quote]
If we took all the alliteration out of English, we'd lose a lot of poetry. On the other hand, listening to a highly alliterated scientific talk, business presentation, or court argument is probably not something you want to do more than once -- at least outside of a comedy club. Context matters.
Going back through the increasingly dense mists of time ... I seem to recall that the prohibition on tongue stopping (at least when I was playing the saxophone) was largely on the grounds that it was a bad habit because it would inhibit your speed in fast passages -- like using a finger to index 3rd position on a trombone. Drooling could be good -- it keeps the reed moist and flexible.
I a simple fact that you cannot get the same crisp ending to a note without using the tongue.
I think there's room for some dispute here, depending on what "crisp" may be taken to mean, but it gets esoteric.
I liken the rule of not stopping notes with the tongue to the rule in English about always avoiding alliteration. It's a fine rule, until you grow enough to learn when breaking it is proper and effective.
[/quote]
If we took all the alliteration out of English, we'd lose a lot of poetry. On the other hand, listening to a highly alliterated scientific talk, business presentation, or court argument is probably not something you want to do more than once -- at least outside of a comedy club. Context matters.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="ghmerrill"][Drooling could be good -- it keeps the reed moist and flexible.[/quote]
:D
Exactly. Thanks. :)
:D
If we took all the alliteration out of English, we'd lose a lot of poetry. On the other hand, listening to a highly alliterated scientific talk, business presentation, or court argument is probably not something you want to do more than once -- at least outside of a comedy club. Context matters.
Exactly. Thanks. :)
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="ghmerrill"]I seem to recall that the prohibition on tongue stopping (at least when I was playing the saxophone) was largely on the grounds that it was a bad habit because it would inhibit your speed in fast passages -- like using a finger to index 3rd position on a trombone.[/quote]
There is truth to that (not the finger thing, the tongue thing) and individuals with heavy tongues often have trouble with fast stuff. It's the classic "the entire band drags on the shout chorus" thing - we do, and this is probably why.
On "Taste of Honey", you can hear Herb Alpert using tongue stops during the phrase and an air stop at the end of the phrase. Different flavors, for sure.
<YOUTUBE id="75R0Mor1keM" list="PLBkQhFof_6diVHIljlnhk3lifhJAwzoeR" t="24">[media]<LINK_TEXT text="https://youtu.be/75R0Mor1keM?list=PLBkQ ... wzoeR&t=24">https://youtu.be/75R0Mor1keM?list=PLBkQhFof_6diVHIljlnhk3lifhJAwzoeR&t=24</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>
There is truth to that (not the finger thing, the tongue thing) and individuals with heavy tongues often have trouble with fast stuff. It's the classic "the entire band drags on the shout chorus" thing - we do, and this is probably why.
On "Taste of Honey", you can hear Herb Alpert using tongue stops during the phrase and an air stop at the end of the phrase. Different flavors, for sure.
<YOUTUBE id="75R0Mor1keM" list="PLBkQhFof_6diVHIljlnhk3lifhJAwzoeR" t="24">