Re-learning on a small bore vs. large bore trombone
- Berkowwm
- Posts: 2
- Joined: May 30, 2025
Hello,
I have gotten back into playing after 20 years away, and I am having a heck of a time with my Bach 42! After such a long hiatus, my embouchure definitely is not where it needs to be, and I have lots of work ahead of me with my breathing/intonation. I am just playing recreationally for now, so I don't have any real need for an orchestral sound. I am mostly bothered that my favorite horn feels "too big" for me now!
Based on your collective experience, would it be best to work with a smaller bore horn first to build good habits, or should I tough it out and keep working at it until I get my form back? I am blessed to have some very nice trombones in my old collection (King 2B, King 3B Silversonic, and others), so I can go to a different instrument if that is most helpful. I don't want to baby myself if it's just a matter of more practice and more time on the 42, but I don't want to build bad habits either.
I appreciate your advice. Thank you for having me on this forum!
-Will
I have gotten back into playing after 20 years away, and I am having a heck of a time with my Bach 42! After such a long hiatus, my embouchure definitely is not where it needs to be, and I have lots of work ahead of me with my breathing/intonation. I am just playing recreationally for now, so I don't have any real need for an orchestral sound. I am mostly bothered that my favorite horn feels "too big" for me now!
Based on your collective experience, would it be best to work with a smaller bore horn first to build good habits, or should I tough it out and keep working at it until I get my form back? I am blessed to have some very nice trombones in my old collection (King 2B, King 3B Silversonic, and others), so I can go to a different instrument if that is most helpful. I don't want to baby myself if it's just a matter of more practice and more time on the 42, but I don't want to build bad habits either.
I appreciate your advice. Thank you for having me on this forum!
-Will
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I'm two years into a comeback after 30 years off, and I had your questions, too. What I did was to play both small and large bore horns. A Bach 16M .509 bore, and a Conn 88HCLSGX .547 bore. Yes, at first the small bore horn was a little easier because my chops and air had not yet developed. But playing both bore sizes let me improve on both until I was eventually fine on the large horn.
For me, air was a HUGE issue at first. I really struggled, and felt like I couldn't play more than a bar or two without having to gasp for air. So I concentrated on getting the biggest breath I could every time I breathed in, and worked on my chops to play efficiently. My thought was that at my age I have only so much lung capacity and I'd solve my air problem by filling my lungs with air not wasting any. It worked. I got both more efficient in my use of air and learned to take maximum air in. Bonus, magically I increased my lung capacity, too!
The embouchure work just takes time and focus. I concentrated on doing the same things the same way on both horns, as I believe everything important about trombone playing happens before the mouthpiece, and it wasn't long before it all started to come together.
It just takes time. Fortunately, not that much time! I had pretty fast improvement, though it wasn't even. Some things improved faster than others. But in 6 months I felt pretty good. In a year...well, in a year I was able to feel pretty normal again.
The most important things for me were consistency, mindfulness and patience.
For me, air was a HUGE issue at first. I really struggled, and felt like I couldn't play more than a bar or two without having to gasp for air. So I concentrated on getting the biggest breath I could every time I breathed in, and worked on my chops to play efficiently. My thought was that at my age I have only so much lung capacity and I'd solve my air problem by filling my lungs with air not wasting any. It worked. I got both more efficient in my use of air and learned to take maximum air in. Bonus, magically I increased my lung capacity, too!
The embouchure work just takes time and focus. I concentrated on doing the same things the same way on both horns, as I believe everything important about trombone playing happens before the mouthpiece, and it wasn't long before it all started to come together.
It just takes time. Fortunately, not that much time! I had pretty fast improvement, though it wasn't even. Some things improved faster than others. But in 6 months I felt pretty good. In a year...well, in a year I was able to feel pretty normal again.
The most important things for me were consistency, mindfulness and patience.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I wouldn't go to anything too small. When I "came back" I got a 525 bore, slightly smaller than your 547 42b. After the air was comfortable there, I branched up and down. It might be that age or physical issues have diminished your air capacity. But if you play on something too small, it might make it even harder to level up later. If you have a 36b, I think that would be a good way to go.
Don't get discouraged. It might not all come back right away, it takes a bit of time and practice. And it winds up to be good medicine.
Don't get discouraged. It might not all come back right away, it takes a bit of time and practice. And it winds up to be good medicine.
- Dougg
- Posts: 2
- Joined: May 29, 2025
I’m also picking back up after two decades and I’ve been playing on my 42 and my 3B. What I’ve noticed six months in is that I don’t have nearly the air support I used to have. Switching to my 3B lessens the impact of the air problem, but it doesn’t do much to solve it. I’ve been reading and working through Breathing Gym lately to try and address the issue head on.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Dougg"]I’m also picking back up after two decades and I’ve been playing on my 42 and my 3B. What I’ve noticed six months in is that I don’t have nearly the air support I used to have. Switching to my 3B lessens the impact of the air problem, but it doesn’t do much to solve it. I’ve been reading and working through Breathing Gym lately to try and address the issue head on.[/quote]
You can practice all the Breathing Gym exercises all you want and they will help you use your air more efficiently, but a fact of life is that you don't have as much air capacity as you used to. A mouthpiece that was perfect long ago may feel like an air hog today. Be ready to downsize mouthpieces if necessary.
You can practice all the Breathing Gym exercises all you want and they will help you use your air more efficiently, but a fact of life is that you don't have as much air capacity as you used to. A mouthpiece that was perfect long ago may feel like an air hog today. Be ready to downsize mouthpieces if necessary.
- BPBasso
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Mar 31, 2025
I've recently returned to (bass) trombone after a 15 year hiatus. I preferred my small bore student horn at first but felt I quickly "outgrew" it once my ear and mouth were back in tune with each other.
I've added breathing gym exercises into my daily stretching and exercise. It has really helped get my lungs flexible again. The goal isn't to "get more" air quantity, but to have build control and access of the quantity your body naturally has.
Once I was playing my bass trombone again, after a lot of researching online I purchased a new mouthpiece similar to my previous one, but with a slightly smaller backbore. This allowed me more control of my air supply to the horn without any major consequence to my sound.
I've added breathing gym exercises into my daily stretching and exercise. It has really helped get my lungs flexible again. The goal isn't to "get more" air quantity, but to have build control and access of the quantity your body naturally has.
Once I was playing my bass trombone again, after a lot of researching online I purchased a new mouthpiece similar to my previous one, but with a slightly smaller backbore. This allowed me more control of my air supply to the horn without any major consequence to my sound.
- Dougg
- Posts: 2
- Joined: May 29, 2025
[quote="BGuttman"]You can practice all the Breathing Gym exercises all you want and they will help you use your air more efficiently, but a fact of life is that you don't have as much air capacity as you used to. A mouthpiece that was perfect long ago may feel like an air hog today. Be ready to downsize mouthpieces if necessary.[/quote]
I’ve been hesitant to chalk any of my problems up to the mouthpiece so far, but that’s good to know. Thanks!
I’ve been hesitant to chalk any of my problems up to the mouthpiece so far, but that’s good to know. Thanks!
- cmccain
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Apr 29, 2024
I'm going to echo what the last two have said that mouthpiece choice is going to be equally or more important to building good habits than horn choice. I would say to work on the horn/s you want to continue to play when you get your chops back (and playing multiple sizes isn't a bad idea) but definitely be willing to change mouthpieces if you feel like something isn't working.
When I came back to bass trombone, I found that I needed a smaller (and differently-shaped) cup but actually a more open backbore, which allowed me to make a focused sound with much less muscle tension than I had the last time I played consistently. For me it was helpful to ask myself what my biggest problem was, and for me the answer was not air volume but maintaining a focused sound, hence the smaller cup size. If your horn feels too big, it might be that you could use a shallower mouthpiece (or it might not be, YMMV).
When I came back to bass trombone, I found that I needed a smaller (and differently-shaped) cup but actually a more open backbore, which allowed me to make a focused sound with much less muscle tension than I had the last time I played consistently. For me it was helpful to ask myself what my biggest problem was, and for me the answer was not air volume but maintaining a focused sound, hence the smaller cup size. If your horn feels too big, it might be that you could use a shallower mouthpiece (or it might not be, YMMV).
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi all .
To me , after 20 years away from the horn , would be better to start again with a small/ medium bore trombone .
As the king 3B OP mentioned .
The mpc choice , for now , is not that important . I think that a measure between 6 3/4 - 6 1/2 can be a good startpoint .
In my opinion , after a 20 years break , one have usually to think that - for some months at least - his playing will be like an "absolute" beginner playing , despite his mind know already things about playing the horn and the music in general . So , just do not be in a hurry , for a while .
Of course , would be interesting to know what horn' bore size and what mpc OP was mainly using before he stopped playing .
Regards
Giancarlo
To me , after 20 years away from the horn , would be better to start again with a small/ medium bore trombone .
As the king 3B OP mentioned .
The mpc choice , for now , is not that important . I think that a measure between 6 3/4 - 6 1/2 can be a good startpoint .
In my opinion , after a 20 years break , one have usually to think that - for some months at least - his playing will be like an "absolute" beginner playing , despite his mind know already things about playing the horn and the music in general . So , just do not be in a hurry , for a while .
Of course , would be interesting to know what horn' bore size and what mpc OP was mainly using before he stopped playing .
Regards
Giancarlo
- shbak
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sep 18, 2022
[quote="tbdana"]For me, air was a HUGE issue at first. I really struggled, and felt like I couldn't play more than a bar or two without having to gasp for air. So I concentrated on getting the biggest breath I could every time I breathed in, and worked on my chops to play efficiently. My thought was that at my age I have only so much lung capacity and I'd solve my air problem by filling my lungs with air not wasting any. It worked. I got both more efficient in my use of air and learned to take maximum air in. Bonus, magically I increased my lung capacity, too![/quote]
Hi Dana, I’m another comeback player, I started playing again a couple of years ago after a 25 year break. Your early challenges with having enough air sound a lot like the issue I’m facing now. I think I’m taking in as much air as I can (when I remember!), so I’m focussing on efficiency. How did you go about improving this aspect of your playing? Was it a conscious mechanical change, a specific type of study/exercise, keeping a certain concept in your mind while playing, or something else?
I’d be very interested to learn how you got over this hurdle.
Thanks!
Stephen
Hi Dana, I’m another comeback player, I started playing again a couple of years ago after a 25 year break. Your early challenges with having enough air sound a lot like the issue I’m facing now. I think I’m taking in as much air as I can (when I remember!), so I’m focussing on efficiency. How did you go about improving this aspect of your playing? Was it a conscious mechanical change, a specific type of study/exercise, keeping a certain concept in your mind while playing, or something else?
I’d be very interested to learn how you got over this hurdle.
Thanks!
Stephen
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
One more thing to consider in the transition is that the bigger horns are just heavier. It can take a little while to get the left arm muscles back in shape, especially for a bass.
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
[quote="Dougg"]<QUOTE author="BGuttman" post_id="277260" time="1748635997" user_id="53">
You can practice all the Breathing Gym exercises all you want and they will help you use your air more efficiently, but a fact of life is that you don't have as much air capacity as you used to. A mouthpiece that was perfect long ago may feel like an air hog today. Be ready to downsize mouthpieces if necessary.[/quote]
I’ve been hesitant to chalk any of my problems up to the mouthpiece so far, but that’s good to know. Thanks!
</QUOTE>
You could actually chalk up many, many, many, many problems to the plain fact of having the wrong size rim that's not helping your particular individual physical makeup.
First thing to really do would be to consult someone like Doug Elliott (even over a Zoom session) to get him to evaluate what you should be using. Best money you'll ever spend!
You can practice all the Breathing Gym exercises all you want and they will help you use your air more efficiently, but a fact of life is that you don't have as much air capacity as you used to. A mouthpiece that was perfect long ago may feel like an air hog today. Be ready to downsize mouthpieces if necessary.[/quote]
I’ve been hesitant to chalk any of my problems up to the mouthpiece so far, but that’s good to know. Thanks!
</QUOTE>
You could actually chalk up many, many, many, many problems to the plain fact of having the wrong size rim that's not helping your particular individual physical makeup.
First thing to really do would be to consult someone like Doug Elliott (even over a Zoom session) to get him to evaluate what you should be using. Best money you'll ever spend!
- Berkowwm
- Posts: 2
- Joined: May 30, 2025
Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful responses.
You've definitely given me some food for thought!
In particular, mouthpiece fit is something I've often thought about. Back when I used to play a lot, I was using a 6.5AL for my Bach 42, and that's what I've stuck with after coming back to it recently. I have a variety of small shank mouthpieces that I collected over time for my other horns (6.75c, 11c, 7c, King M21), but I haven't used them in forever. To be honest, though, I don't feel that I was ever properly fit for a mouthpiece. Back in those days I just kind of did what my teacher told me, and he was probably recommending what was passed down to him. There was very little collective wisdom available on the internet in those days (I think our internet was still dial-up when I bought that 42), and I didn't have much in the way of advising.
I have also been interested in trying a Bach 36 (or equivalent .525), but I unfortunately don't own one and probably won't be able to justify buying more instruments unless I consistently play much more. For now, I will work with my 42 and supplement with my King 3B and give myself some time to build up my skills a bit.
Also, regarding breath support, I have given that some thought and I think that might fortunately be one of my lesser problems at this time (my embouchure being the greatest). I'm definitely not nearly as good as I was, but I am still able to put quite a bit of wind through my 42 without having to "come up for air" too excessively (40 years old and mildly athletic). I'd be lying if I said it felt easy to play compared to my 3B, however.
So I think I will keep practicing on my 42, switch to a smaller horn from time to time, and look seriously at mouthpiece fit as my next steps!
You've definitely given me some food for thought!
In particular, mouthpiece fit is something I've often thought about. Back when I used to play a lot, I was using a 6.5AL for my Bach 42, and that's what I've stuck with after coming back to it recently. I have a variety of small shank mouthpieces that I collected over time for my other horns (6.75c, 11c, 7c, King M21), but I haven't used them in forever. To be honest, though, I don't feel that I was ever properly fit for a mouthpiece. Back in those days I just kind of did what my teacher told me, and he was probably recommending what was passed down to him. There was very little collective wisdom available on the internet in those days (I think our internet was still dial-up when I bought that 42), and I didn't have much in the way of advising.
I have also been interested in trying a Bach 36 (or equivalent .525), but I unfortunately don't own one and probably won't be able to justify buying more instruments unless I consistently play much more. For now, I will work with my 42 and supplement with my King 3B and give myself some time to build up my skills a bit.
Also, regarding breath support, I have given that some thought and I think that might fortunately be one of my lesser problems at this time (my embouchure being the greatest). I'm definitely not nearly as good as I was, but I am still able to put quite a bit of wind through my 42 without having to "come up for air" too excessively (40 years old and mildly athletic). I'd be lying if I said it felt easy to play compared to my 3B, however.
So I think I will keep practicing on my 42, switch to a smaller horn from time to time, and look seriously at mouthpiece fit as my next steps!