Hello,

I have recently been contracted, for the first time in my career, to play alto sackbut on a gig. The organization has loaned me an instrument - a modern replica, as far as I can tell, but with an authentic mouthpiece (similar to a trumpet mouthpiece, but with a significantly wider and rounder rim). It is pitched in F.

They want my opinion on the instrument, and, unfortunately, I don't have another one to compare it to.

Those of you who have experience playing alto sackbut, what would you look for in such an instrument? Are there particular characteristics and/or issue to look out for? If so, what are they.

I've been playing it for a couple of weeks and I'm relatively happy with it.

However:

1. It barely has a seventh position (the slide almost falls off when in tune; however, there is also a spring in first position, so technically there may be some more room to play with).

2. The pitch seems to be inconsistent across octaves. (Each octave higher, I find I have to pull out the positions quite a bit, as it goes sharper as I ascend.)

Are these normal features of an alto sackbut, or problems?

I could probably post a clip playing it, if that's of interest.

Thanks in advance!

I'n no expert on sackbuts but an "authentic mouthpiece" would not be "similar to a trumpet mouthpiece, but with a significantly wider and rounder rim."

The pitch problems are either because it's just not a well designed instrument or the mouthpiece is too small, or some of both.

Thanks, Doug! That's a fair point. I actually don't know!

I did see this earlier thread, and the design is not too dissimilar from this, but with a MUCH rounder rim:

<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=13832#p13832">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=13832#p13832</LINK_TEXT>

(And trumpet-sized, not trombone-sized.)

I could try to post a pic in a few days (I don't have the instrument with me, currently.)

That "stretched tuning" could also be indicative of a mouthpiece throat that is too open for the rest of the mouthpiece design. Probably unlikely for an authentic sackbut mouthpiece, but since yours has a round rim it doesn't sound like the real deal.

There are other issues that can happen in the backbore that will cause the same thing.

Most of the historical originals were in D, which roughly equates to Eb modern pitch. The "good" replicas are in Eb, and play pretty well in tune. They don't have cork barrels or springs on the slide. An authentic mouthpiece would have a flat rim, not curved. Who made this sackbut? Whether the instrument is appropriate depends on what music you are playing, of course.

Most of the historical originals were in D, which roughly equates to Eb modern pitch. The "good" replicas are in Eb, and play pretty well in tune. They don't have cork barrels or springs on the slide. An authentic mouthpiece would have a flat rim, not curved. Who made this sackbut? Whether the instrument is appropriate depends on what music you are playing, of course.

Thank you! Lots of great answers. Now I'm very curious what this mouthpiece is, or where it comes from.

As far as I can tell, it's trumpet-sized (the shank is the same, and generally the size of the thing), with a very tight throat and a very wide and rounded rim (unlike the sharp sackbut mouthpiece rims I've seen).

I'll find out the make; I don't get to "see" the instrument again until Tuesday.

This looks like it (including the mouthpiece):

<LINK_TEXT text="https://omeka-s.grinnell.edu/s/MusicalI ... s/item/943">https://omeka-s.grinnell.edu/s/MusicalInstruments/item/943</LINK_TEXT>

I make something that is not authentic either, but would play well on that and sound appropriate. But with anything you have to approach it as a sackbut, not as a trombone.

I don’t trust sackbut authenticity with a slide lock, water key, and round braces being present on the bellstay. Looks like a Glassl-esque “Baroque Trombone”.

I know we are asked not to judge with our eyes, but I am also judgey against British brass bands that have Bach 42s instead of 88Hs or Raths, or Brass Basses with forward valves or rotors. I also judge the one guy on stage with obviously white socks or ankle cuts when the venue calls for full black socks.

Who is the audience of my criticisms? My wife. Who just wants them to have fun playing and do their best.

But sincerely, I think your mouthpiece is wrong too.

Alto "sackbut" in F tends to ring alarm bells for me. Any model that I can think of is either really a vaguely-sackbut-shaped modern style trombone, or a very bad instrument, and usually both at the same time. The reputable makers all make instruments in modern Eb (which is actually D at historical pitch levels).

Generally speaking, a good sackbut should have very thin bell wall thickness (usually around 0.3 mm at the start of the bell, coming down to 0.1 or less at the rim), the least amount of stiffness in the assembly, especially of the bell section (usually a single, light, flat bell stay, not tubular stays), a bore and bell size and shape that is based on a appropriate original and not just some vaguely somewhat smaller specs than normal modern instruments. The most rolled and seamed tubing, the better. No leadpipe. What it should play like: it should have very flexible and differentiated response to varied inputs in terms of articulations, speed and amount of air, dynamics, etc. To a player not familiar with it, that might initially be perceived as instability. It should encourage you to use variety rather than playing everything the same and filling it with big air. It should be able to be pushed, but above all be very responsive even to the softest possible playing. It should have complex (and flexible) overtones with a rich tone, not pinched or nasal (although of course a lot of that is usually the player); not have too much core, resonant but also transparent, and can mix well with voices, although also with the ability to play bright when mixing with loud instruments. When pushed, bright is what you want, not tubby.

All that said, even good alto sackbuts tend to be a bit finicky. Much more than tenors. It's really hard to make a really good one, and the bad ones are usually awful.

Thank you! Lots of good feedback.

My impressions playing the instrument - as seems to be the consensus here - is that it's an oddball design and likely not particularly authentic.

However, the description of how it plays/should play, from Maximilien (thank you!), sounds fairly accurate. The timbre changes a lot with registers and dynamics, but, it seems to me, in a rather pleasing way. For example, the louder/higher parts I play together with the tirarsi sound resonant and vocal; I can imagine it may have sounded angelic to audiences 500 years ago. So, generally, yeah, as you describe here. (Except perhaps that it loses some point or core at very quiet dynamics, perhaps; otherwise that suits what I hear coming out the bell pretty well.)

I'll take some pictures tomorrow or the next day and be back! Any further thoughts are welcome.

Looks like the Giardinelli hackbut. I have never seen one of the altos, but the tenor and bass are absolutely dreadful instruments. Or it might be the Finke. Never seen an alto from them but again, the tenor and bass are REALLY bad.

[quote="bbocaner"]Looks like the Giardinelli hackbut. I have never seen one of the altos, but the tenor and bass are absolutely dreadful instruments. Or it might be the Finke. Never seen an alto from them but again, the tenor and bass are REALLY bad.[/quote]

In the 1970s, I was playing early music on a borrowed historical instrument, and was tempted to buy a Giardinelli tenor sackbut. Sure glad that I never pulled the trigger!

[quote="bbocaner"]Looks like the Giardinelli hackbut. I have never seen one of the altos, but the tenor and bass are absolutely dreadful instruments.[/quote]

The bass is vaguely passable. The tenor is godawful. The alto seemed to me like the worse of the three.