Hi everyone,

I'm a comeback player. I was a trumpet player in high school but suffered an embouchure injury before starting college. I hung things up until about 10 years ago, when I gave euphonium a shot. I took to it pretty well ... until I injured myself (again). I was diagnosed with a partial tear of the orbicularis oris in the upper left lip. My euphonium career, start to finish, lasted about 7 months.

I took 10 years off.

I started playing trombone about 6 months ago. I'm taking lessons with a teacher whom I trust immensely, so I certainly plan to bring this up in my next lesson. But I've been a lurker on TC for over a decade, and I'm aware of Doug Elliott's embouchure expertise and the research Dave Wilken has done. So I thought I'd air it all out here, too, and go 100% vulnerability, and post my broken face:

<YOUTUBE id="TJQmrlQnhx0">https://youtu.be/TJQmrlQnhx0</YOUTUBE>

I do feel reasonably good about my embouchure - my injury 10 years ago, in my opinion, was caused by a "smile" embouchure that stretched the lips quite thin and relied on mouthpiece pressure to get the job done. I've worked very hard to overcome those habits and am enjoying numerous benefits from the changes. One concern I just can't shake, however, is the ring around my upper lip. What you see in the video happens very quickly into any practice session, and can take quite a while to disappear (30 minutes to a couple hours). I feel like I'm using as little pressure as I can get away with.

I'm aware of Doug's various comments along the lines of:

- Some pressure is necessary (seal, stabilization)

- Excess pressure is a symptom of a foundational problem

I've seen so many threads of people asking similar questions, but rarely does anyone post a video - so this is me (hopefully) cutting to the chase.

I am utterly terrified of another injury. I don't feel like my past injuries are holding me back, but I'm too old to have to take another decade off because I screwed something up.

Kudos for posting this. My post here is just trying to respond with helpful ideas:

It doesn't sound like you are "in the slot". I think you might actually be too afraid of pressure and moving the embouchure around through different registers. Doing that stuff incorrectly is bad, of course, but doing that stuff correctly is ... correct, if that makes sense.

In your lip slur exercise, I would expect slightly more movement of the embouchure -- a pivot, or whatever you want to call it. It might be that you're trying to keep everything too centered, too 50/50. Not that your embouchure is actually 50/50, but it looks like you're actively trying to keep it completely static. Especially on the low Bb, from my perspective it looks like you should be dropping the jaw a bit to bring the air stream closer to the bore line for that register (you look like a down stream player). I'm no embouchure diagnosis expert so I'll leave it at that.

The sound is not unpleasant, so let me stress that you're doing a good job in the video, but there should be more core and "zing" to it. It sounds like you're buzzing the horn instead of the horn buzzing together with you.

The ring around your upper lip is not a problem. Almost everyone gets something like that. Some high level trombonists have a perma-ring.

That did not sound awful!

You have a decent facility to slur up and down through the range of the horn.

I think you will eventually need to practice playing... louder. This sounded like all mp to me. I don't think you will develop a full tone (the "core and zing" stuff) for mp if you've not been also practicing f and ff.

That's a Remington and Blazevitch doctrine, not something i dreamed up on my own.

It is something you practice, beyond just using more air.

Empty your spit valve. If it was already empty... there is some odd problem yet to be diagnosed.

-

[quote="robcat2075"]This sounded like all mp to me.[/quote]

This may have been an effort to keep from overloading the microphone.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Kudos for posting this. My post here is just trying to respond with helpful ideas[/quote]

Thank you - and all help/ideas welcome! I know I'm struggling and there's a lot to be improved upon, so I'm all ears.

[quote="harrisonreed"]It doesn't sound like you are "in the slot". I think you might actually be too afraid of pressure and moving the embouchure around through different registers. Doing that stuff incorrectly is bad, of course, but doing that stuff correctly is ... correct, if that makes sense.[/quote]

I'm getting very similar feedback from my teacher - like I'm holding back and playing with timidity. It's 100% true. I play with the constant fear that 1) I'm doing something incorrectly with my setup, and 2) #1 will lead to a third injury that I may not be able to come back from.

[quote="harrisonreed"]In your lip slur exercise, I would expect slightly more movement of the embouchure -- a pivot, or whatever you want to call it. It might be that you're trying to keep everything too centered, too 50/50. Not that your embouchure is actually 50/50, but it looks like you're actively trying to keep it completely static. Especially on the low Bb, from my perspective it looks like you should be dropping the jaw a bit to bring the air stream closer to the bore line for that register (you look like a down stream player). I'm no embouchure diagnosis expert so I'll leave it at that.[/quote]

I'm not aiming for "static", per se, but rather trying to minimize a downward tilt in order to help keep pressure off the fleshy part of my upper lip. Perhaps I'm overthinking this?

[quote="harrisonreed"]The sound is not unpleasant, so let me stress that you're doing a good job in the video, but there should be more core and "zing" to it. It sounds like you're buzzing the horn instead of the horn buzzing together with you.[/quote]

Thank you - and again, this very much echoes the feedback I get in my lessons. It's odd - when I pick up a euphonium, my throat is open, tongue out of the way, jaw is lower - and it produces a pleasing resonance. It happens on the trombone, but infrequently. There is very much a mental block happening.

[quote="harrisonreed"]The ring around your upper lip is not a problem. Almost everyone gets something like that. Some high level trombonists have a perma-ring.[/quote]

That's good to hear - I do tend to fixate on it.

[quote="robcat2075"]That did not sound awful!

You have a decent facility to slur up and down through the range of the horn.

I think you will eventually need to practice playing... louder. This sounded like all mp to me. I don't think you will develop a full tone (the "core and zing" stuff) for mp if you've not been also practicing f and ff.[/quote]

Thank you, and yes I've been trying to play mp to mf (max) so I can practice longer and more frequently. Perhaps I'm leaning into that mindset too much?

[quote="robcat2075"]Empty your spit valve. If it was already empty... there is some odd problem yet to be diagnosed.[/quote]

Yeah, sorry about that! I even realized it was a problem as I was recording. I should have dealt with that and started over.

FWIW, when I play trombone, the back of my tongue is quite high most of the time in all but the lowest registers. The tongue fills up most of the space and controls the air stream. And it goes forward for the upper register. If you watch the MRI videos of Sarah Willis you'll see the same thing.

Open throat and low tongue is not what I'd recommend for trombone. Small bore or otherwise.

Sorry to hear about your injuries and difficulties.

[quote="jabice"]I do feel reasonably good about my embouchure - my injury 10 years ago, in my opinion, was caused by a "smile" embouchure that stretched the lips quite thin and relied on mouthpiece pressure to get the job done.[/quote]

That tracks. Pulling your mouth corners back into a smile position stretches them out and makes your lips more sensitive to pressure.

[quote="jabice"]One concern I just can't shake, however, is the ring around my upper lip.[/quote]

I don't feel this should be a concern at all. Some people have skin that is more prone to this, but it's not a symptom of excessive pressure or that you're doing anything wrong.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I think you might actually be too afraid of pressure and moving the embouchure around through different registers.[/quote]

Yeah, I think you'd do better by making sure your embouchure formation is firm enough to accept normal playing pressure. You seem to be using too little mouthpiece pressure.

[quote="harrisonreed"]In your lip slur exercise, I would expect slightly more movement of the embouchure -- a pivot, or whatever you want to call it.[/quote]

I agree with this too.

[quote="jabice"]I'm not aiming for "static", per se, but rather trying to minimize a downward tilt in order to help keep pressure off the fleshy part of my upper lip. Perhaps I'm overthinking this?[/quote]

What Harrison is talking about isn't tilting the horn, but rather a pushing and pulling of the mouthpiece and lips together along the teeth and gums underneath. Horn angle can change as a result of maintaining a solid foundation of the lips/rim together along the teeth/gums underneath, but it's not the main factor. You seem to need to push up to ascend and pull down to descend, but watching your video it's very minimal and not very consistent.

In order to give you more specific advice I'd have to work with you in real time. Doug, as you know, is very good at helping players with issues like yours, so I suggest you reach out to him and try to grab a lesson when you can.

Dave

To me, the downward angle of the horn actually allows you to offload the pressure onto the lower lip. I wouldn't fight that.

No one has mentioned this so they'll probably think I'm out of step, but what I saw and heard in that video is tentative air flow. And that causes all sorts of problems. A good, solid, steady, well-supported air column can fix a multitude of problems. And starting it well is especially important. In the video you sometimes start notes too tentatively in terms of air flow.

Also, please empty that spit valve! LOL! :D

Thank you very much for chiming in, Dave.

[quote="Wilktone"]Sorry to hear about your injuries and difficulties.[/quote]

Thank you - it's been a rough road, to say the least. The mental side of it... no bueno.

[quote="Wilktone"]I don't feel this should be a concern at all. Some people have skin that is more prone to this, but it's not a symptom of excessive pressure or that you're doing anything wrong.[/quote]

It's great to get further confirmation of this. This will reduce the cognitive load while I'm playing quite a bit, which I'm convinced has been contributing to many of the other points you and others have made (timidity on attacks, lack of air support, etc.).

[quote="Wilktone"]Yeah, I think you'd do better by making sure your embouchure formation is firm enough to accept normal playing pressure. You seem to be using too little mouthpiece pressure.[/quote]

It's also good to get more confirmation on this: I've gone through phases where I've obsessed about reducing pressure as much as possible. In some instances, I'd been playing with it practically "floating". It goes without saying that that didn't work out, and just become yet another mental item to keep track of.

[quote="Wilktone"]What Harrison is talking about isn't tilting the horn, but rather a pushing and pulling of the mouthpiece and lips together along the teeth and gums underneath. Horn angle can change as a result of maintaining a solid foundation of the lips/rim together along the teeth/gums underneath, but it's not the main factor. You seem to need to push up to ascend and pull down to descend, but watching your video it's very minimal and not very consistent.

In order to give you more specific advice I'd have to work with you in real time. Doug, as you know, is very good at helping players with issues like yours, so I suggest you reach out to him and try to grab a lesson when you can.

Dave[/quote]

These are new "descriptors" I haven't come across before, so I'm definitely interested in learning more about this.

[quote="tbdana"]No one has mentioned this so they'll probably think I'm out of step, but what I saw and heard in that video is tentative air flow. And that causes all sorts of problems. A good, solid, steady, well-supported air column can fix a multitude of problems. And starting it well is especially important. In the video you sometimes start notes too tentatively in terms of air flow.

Also, please empty that spit valve! LOL! :D[/quote]

I'm definitely experiencing a lack of support. As I mentioned in a previous post above, there is a mental block I'm experiencing on the instrument. My support on euphonium is much, much better. I'm new to both trombone and bass clef, so there's a higher mental load when playing the trombone.

And yeah, sorry about the spit :)

[quote="jabice"]My support on euphonium is much, much better.[/quote]

It might be interesting to see you on euphonium. Sometimes, seeing how two instruments look alike or different can lead to valuable insights.

Also for the same reason: flipping the slide around and playing trombone left handed.

[quote="jabice"]These are new "descriptors" I haven't come across before, so I'm definitely interested in learning more about this.[/quote]

All brass players, either consciously or unconsciously, will push their mouthpiece and lips together up and down along their teeth and gums underneath as they change register. Some players will push up to ascend and others will pull down.

<YOUTUBE id="zOOO4t3O5ok">[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOOO4t3O5ok</YOUTUBE>

The first trumpet player pushes his mouthpiece and lips up to ascend. The second pulls down. While the general direction is up/down, there's almost always some side to side direction of this track, but it should probably work in a straight line.

Go back and watch your own video and look for this phenomenon. It's there, but difficult to spot. You seem to want to push up to ascend (and I think to your right). I suspect that doing this motion a little more would help, but I would really need to work with you in real time to make sure that you're using enough mouthpiece pressure, etc. But you can try this out yourself and see if it helps. Slur from middle Bb up to high Bb and consciously push your mouthpiece and lips together up as you ascend. Try pushing up and to the right and see if it works better. Compare to up and to the left. Compare those to pulling down to ascend, just to see. When everything else is working well enough, one of those directions will work better than the others.

In addition to breathing, already mentioned, I might also experiment with your mouthpiece placement. It doesn't look typical for the embouchure type I'm guessing you belong to. You might do better with a placement higher and closer to the nose.

But remember, I'm just guessing based on what I see in your video. To really help I'd need to work with you in real time. Better still, see if you can meet up with Doug. Then let us know how close my guesses are.

Dave

[quote="jabice"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="277504" time="1748896037" user_id="16498">
No one has mentioned this so they'll probably think I'm out of step, but what I saw and heard in that video is tentative air flow. And that causes all sorts of problems. A good, solid, steady, well-supported air column can fix a multitude of problems. And starting it well is especially important. In the video you sometimes start notes too tentatively in terms of air flow.

Also, please empty that spit valve! LOL! :D[/quote]

I'm definitely experiencing a lack of support. As I mentioned in a previous post above, there is a mental block I'm experiencing on the instrument. My support on euphonium is much, much better. I'm new to both trombone and bass clef, so there's a higher mental load when playing the trombone.

And yeah, sorry about the spit :)
</QUOTE>

I agree with dana. That’s the first most glaring symptom I saw. For me, I’ve got to want to start the note in the context of time (not musical rhythm, but a specific time or sequence that’s part of a wind up) more than I want to get the note I intended to. Following through with the intention of starting sound is the bottom of the pyramid for the tone, which will get you to range, flexibility, intonation, etc.

[quote="Wilktone"]Go back and watch your own video and look for this phenomenon. It's there, but difficult to spot. You seem to want to push up to ascend (and I think to your right). I suspect that doing this motion a little more would help, but I would really need to work with you in real time to make sure that you're using enough mouthpiece pressure, etc. But you can try this out yourself and see if it helps. Slur from middle Bb up to high Bb and consciously push your mouthpiece and lips together up as you ascend. Try pushing up and to the right and see if it works better. Compare to up and to the left. Compare those to pulling down to ascend, just to see. When everything else is working well enough, one of those directions will work better than the others.

In addition to breathing, already mentioned, I might also experiment with your mouthpiece placement. It doesn't look typical for the embouchure type I'm guessing you belong to. You might do better with a placement higher and closer to the nose.

But remember, I'm just guessing based on what I see in your video. To really help I'd need to work with you in real time. Better still, see if you can meet up with Doug. Then let us know how close my guesses are.

Dave[/quote]

This was awesome, Dave - I did go back and watch it and then did some exercises while thinking about it, and I do indeed push up and to my right. I'll try "leaning into" that a bit and see where it takes me. Again, thank you for this.

[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="jabice" post_id="277532" time="1748916594" user_id="18712">

I'm definitely experiencing a lack of support. As I mentioned in a previous post above, there is a mental block I'm experiencing on the instrument. My support on euphonium is much, much better. I'm new to both trombone and bass clef, so there's a higher mental load when playing the trombone.

And yeah, sorry about the spit :)[/quote]

I agree with dana. That’s the first most glaring symptom I saw. For me, I’ve got to want to start the note in the context of time (not musical rhythm, but a specific time or sequence that’s part of a wind up) more than I want to get the note I intended to. Following through with the intention of starting sound is the bottom of the pyramid for the tone, which will get you to range, flexibility, intonation, etc.
</QUOTE>

I appreciate this, as well. I've started thinking to myself "this is starting on-time at all costs," and it's helped a lot. I've also been working on really opening things up, and it's helped several things fall into place: attacks, tone (core, specifically), and stability of intonation.

I'll try to post a follow-up video this weekend. The progress has buoyed my confidence a bit and put my mind at ease (re: injury). This has been holding me back in my lessons, as well. Not that I don't trust my teacher (far from it - I trust him <U>implicitly</U>), but getting the same feedback from "all sides" has really hit home in a positive, productive way.