Most fancy (and more or less established) trombone brands?
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
This is pure curiosity...
In the trumpet world, more and more makers seem to establish designs that differentiate very clearly from more traditional models. Thinking about e.g. Lotus, Harrelson, AR Resonance, Inderbinen etc. working with geometries, sometimes materials, weight distributions, very very modular systems, integrated mouthpieces, finishes etc. Even completely new instrument shapes such as the Schagerl Ganschhorn.
I am not so deep in these instruments, but the horn and tuba area seems to be very traditional.
So what about trombones? This is very simplified, but in the end, trombone makers seem to often aim for a "traditional" sound, but with improved performance/ease, e.g. by using better valves or adding a screw bell or simply improved manufacturing control/quality.
So what are the trombone brands that deviate the most and go their own direction?
First that comes to my mind is Inderbinen and Butler.
What are your thoughts?
In the trumpet world, more and more makers seem to establish designs that differentiate very clearly from more traditional models. Thinking about e.g. Lotus, Harrelson, AR Resonance, Inderbinen etc. working with geometries, sometimes materials, weight distributions, very very modular systems, integrated mouthpieces, finishes etc. Even completely new instrument shapes such as the Schagerl Ganschhorn.
I am not so deep in these instruments, but the horn and tuba area seems to be very traditional.
So what about trombones? This is very simplified, but in the end, trombone makers seem to often aim for a "traditional" sound, but with improved performance/ease, e.g. by using better valves or adding a screw bell or simply improved manufacturing control/quality.
So what are the trombone brands that deviate the most and go their own direction?
First that comes to my mind is Inderbinen and Butler.
What are your thoughts?
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Interesting topic
I believe Courtious made a horn for a time with a double bell on bell and heavy metal plates on it. I think this was during the period when Wynton was playing that super heavy Monette
The Shuman Trombone with it`s slide going off in a different direction was a little odd
Lately there have been many different shaped F attachment designs
And the "Super Bone"
I believe Courtious made a horn for a time with a double bell on bell and heavy metal plates on it. I think this was during the period when Wynton was playing that super heavy Monette
The Shuman Trombone with it`s slide going off in a different direction was a little odd
Lately there have been many different shaped F attachment designs
And the "Super Bone"
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
BAC is (in)famous for its non traditional designs:
Schagerl also has some unique designs:
Schagerl also has some unique designs:
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
BAC seems more form over function for me. Although admittedly I never played one and have never even seen one here in Germany.
I think I remember having seen that Courtois "double bell" at some point.
The Shuman trombone is an interesting concept, but has not really got any traction?
I think the Conn Vocabell may be another good example, however didn't really maintain its footprint...
https://haagston.at/collections/brassego-posaune is also interesting. They are using a special bell hammering. Never seen in the wild however...
I think I remember having seen that Courtois "double bell" at some point.
The Shuman trombone is an interesting concept, but has not really got any traction?
I think the Conn Vocabell may be another good example, however didn't really maintain its footprint...
https://haagston.at/collections/brassego-posaune is also interesting. They are using a special bell hammering. Never seen in the wild however...
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Mentioned in a recent thread:
Cédric Sourdouyre (https://www.trombone-alpha.com/)
[quote="MStarke"]The Shuman trombone is an interesting concept, but has not really got any traction?[/quote]
They're pretty much curiosities/collectibles at this point. The US patent was granted in 1954; I would be quite surprised if more than a couple hundred were made.
[quote="MStarke"]https://haagston.at/collections/brassego-posaune is also interesting. They are using a special bell hammering. Never seen in the wild however...[/quote]
Olds offered a hammered finish at one time. It was standard on their "Military" model (not actually built for the military) and available as an option on some of their other models.
Then there was the Couturier "conical bore" trombone.
Cédric Sourdouyre (https://www.trombone-alpha.com/)
[quote="MStarke"]The Shuman trombone is an interesting concept, but has not really got any traction?[/quote]
They're pretty much curiosities/collectibles at this point. The US patent was granted in 1954; I would be quite surprised if more than a couple hundred were made.
[quote="MStarke"]https://haagston.at/collections/brassego-posaune is also interesting. They are using a special bell hammering. Never seen in the wild however...[/quote]
Olds offered a hammered finish at one time. It was standard on their "Military" model (not actually built for the military) and available as an option on some of their other models.
Then there was the Couturier "conical bore" trombone.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Interesting that their bass trumpets are called “Fat Lady.” https://haagston.at/collections/brassego-basstrompete
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="MStarke"]BAC seems more form over function for me. Although admittedly I never played one and have never even seen one here in Germany.
I think I remember having seen that Courtois "double bell" at some point.
The Shuman trombone is an interesting concept, but has not really got any traction?
I think the Conn Vocabell may be another good example, however didn't really maintain its footprint...
https://haagston.at/collections/brassego-posaune is also interesting. They are using a special bell hammering. Never seen in the wild however...[/quote]
The Elliott Mason horn, the real one not the cheap knock off version, really plays. It's incredible
I think I remember having seen that Courtois "double bell" at some point.
The Shuman trombone is an interesting concept, but has not really got any traction?
I think the Conn Vocabell may be another good example, however didn't really maintain its footprint...
https://haagston.at/collections/brassego-posaune is also interesting. They are using a special bell hammering. Never seen in the wild however...[/quote]
The Elliott Mason horn, the real one not the cheap knock off version, really plays. It's incredible
- Fruitysloth
- Posts: 421
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="MStarke" post_id="279042" time="1750336762" user_id="4208">
BAC seems more form over function for me. Although admittedly I never played one and have never even seen one here in Germany.
I think I remember having seen that Courtois "double bell" at some point.
The Shuman trombone is an interesting concept, but has not really got any traction?
I think the Conn Vocabell may be another good example, however didn't really maintain its footprint...
https://haagston.at/collections/brassego-posaune is also interesting. They are using a special bell hammering. Never seen in the wild however...[/quote]
The Elliott Mason horn, the real one not the cheap knock off version, really plays. It's incredible
</QUOTE>
I played one of their “Voyager” models at ITF with a stainless steel bell flare and it was a CANNON. Not sure if I like how far up they put the screwbell for transportation, but it was a killer horn.
BAC seems more form over function for me. Although admittedly I never played one and have never even seen one here in Germany.
I think I remember having seen that Courtois "double bell" at some point.
The Shuman trombone is an interesting concept, but has not really got any traction?
I think the Conn Vocabell may be another good example, however didn't really maintain its footprint...
https://haagston.at/collections/brassego-posaune is also interesting. They are using a special bell hammering. Never seen in the wild however...[/quote]
The Elliott Mason horn, the real one not the cheap knock off version, really plays. It's incredible
</QUOTE>
I played one of their “Voyager” models at ITF with a stainless steel bell flare and it was a CANNON. Not sure if I like how far up they put the screwbell for transportation, but it was a killer horn.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="MStarke" post_id="279042" time="1750336762" user_id="4208">
BAC seems more form over function for me.[/quote]
The Elliott Mason horn, the real one not the cheap knock off version, really plays. It's incredible
</QUOTE>
Top of the BAC line: great. <EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI>
The 3 others that I tried: Meh <EMOJI seq="1f971" tseq="1f971">🥱</EMOJI>
BAC seems more form over function for me.[/quote]
The Elliott Mason horn, the real one not the cheap knock off version, really plays. It's incredible
</QUOTE>
Top of the BAC line: great. <EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI>
The 3 others that I tried: Meh <EMOJI seq="1f971" tseq="1f971">🥱</EMOJI>
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not plugging BAC. I just call it as I see it. That one model, I thought it fit the bill.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
Has anyone here actually played Inderbinen or Haagston/Brassego at some point?
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Every BAC Horn I`ve played has sounded very Brittle, tone wise,
I tried one the Christopher Bill Models and it was awful
I tried one the Christopher Bill Models and it was awful
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="MStarke"]Has anyone here actually played Inderbinen or Haagston/Brassego at some point?[/quote]
Chris Fidler had an Inderbinen Piccola for a while. He raved about it. Then suddenly it was gone with the comment "too heavy". You see so few Inderbinen trombones out there that there must be a reason -- more than just because he is a one-man operation.
By the way, David Monette (the trumpet guy) made 5 trombones. I know Scott Hartman has one and Larry Isaacson has one. Don't know where the rest of them went. They were nothing like his trumpets.
Chris Fidler had an Inderbinen Piccola for a while. He raved about it. Then suddenly it was gone with the comment "too heavy". You see so few Inderbinen trombones out there that there must be a reason -- more than just because he is a one-man operation.
By the way, David Monette (the trumpet guy) made 5 trombones. I know Scott Hartman has one and Larry Isaacson has one. Don't know where the rest of them went. They were nothing like his trumpets.
- mgladdish
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Oct 10, 2021
Oh those Schagerl trombones are *lovely*.
Likewise, I'd love to see more variance in the styles available.
Likewise, I'd love to see more variance in the styles available.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
I have read about those Monette trombones somewhere - probably here.
I would be really interested to try an Inderbinen and a Brassego at some point. But hopefully not like it, so that I wouldn't even think about wanting one!
Also the current line of Haag trombones looks great. Would love to try them.
I would be really interested to try an Inderbinen and a Brassego at some point. But hopefully not like it, so that I wouldn't even think about wanting one!
Also the current line of Haag trombones looks great. Would love to try them.
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
i got questions about these bends. Taylor claims they don't affect sound.
so...are the thousands of posts here about valve design in vain?
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https://www.taylortrumpets.com/pages/vulcan-custom
so...are the thousands of posts here about valve design in vain?
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https://www.taylortrumpets.com/pages/vulcan-custom
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="jacobgarchik"]i got questions about these bends. Taylor claims they don't affect sound.
so...are the thousands of posts here about valve design in vain?[/quote]
Trumpets already have a bunch of tight bends through their valves; a couple more here and there on the open horn aren't going to make much difference.
so...are the thousands of posts here about valve design in vain?[/quote]
Trumpets already have a bunch of tight bends through their valves; a couple more here and there on the open horn aren't going to make much difference.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Taylor I lump in with Monette and some of those other weird trumpet makers. They just have to be weird and psuedosciency with everything. They're like audiophile snake oil nonsense but for THAT segment of the weekend warrior trumpet world.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="MStarke" post_id="279112" time="1750371214" user_id="4208">
Has anyone here actually played Inderbinen or Haagston/Brassego at some point?[/quote]
Chris Fidler had an Inderbinen Piccola for a while. He raved about it. Then suddenly it was gone with the comment "too heavy". You see so few Inderbinen trombones out there that there must be a reason -- more than just because he is a one-man operation.
By the way, David Monette (the trumpet guy) made 5 trombones. I know Scott Hartman has one and Larry Isaacson has one. Don't know where the rest of them went. They were nothing like his trumpets.
</QUOTE>
Norman Bolter and Doug Yeo played on Monette trombones for a period of time (they might have been just bells with slides from Bach). Jim Pugh was working with him on the design of a small bore - don't know where that project went.
Jim Scott
Has anyone here actually played Inderbinen or Haagston/Brassego at some point?[/quote]
Chris Fidler had an Inderbinen Piccola for a while. He raved about it. Then suddenly it was gone with the comment "too heavy". You see so few Inderbinen trombones out there that there must be a reason -- more than just because he is a one-man operation.
By the way, David Monette (the trumpet guy) made 5 trombones. I know Scott Hartman has one and Larry Isaacson has one. Don't know where the rest of them went. They were nothing like his trumpets.
</QUOTE>
Norman Bolter and Doug Yeo played on Monette trombones for a period of time (they might have been just bells with slides from Bach). Jim Pugh was working with him on the design of a small bore - don't know where that project went.
Jim Scott
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="MStarke"]
I am not so deep in these instruments, but the horn and tuba area seems to be very traditional.
[/quote]
you can do a lot with the shape of a tuba.
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you can't do much with the shape of a trombone. the slide is pretty much set. You can mess with the bell section, although pointing it in different directions messes up the ergonomics.
Thus people experimenting with finishes, brace materials, valves, and wrap. But the shapes of the open horn are the same.
I am not so deep in these instruments, but the horn and tuba area seems to be very traditional.
[/quote]
you can do a lot with the shape of a tuba.
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you can't do much with the shape of a trombone. the slide is pretty much set. You can mess with the bell section, although pointing it in different directions messes up the ergonomics.
Thus people experimenting with finishes, brace materials, valves, and wrap. But the shapes of the open horn are the same.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I used to play in a quintet with some of the trumpet players who worked at Monette. They asked me to play one of the prototypes that was either never released or was returned. I played for about 3 hours at their shop. It was a 42 (straight) with a Bach slide, but the bell was heavier, two-piece, with a soldered bead.
I don’t remember whether they had done anything with the neckpipe or the tuning slide, although I do remember the interior legs of the t-slide were not straight pipes. They were tapered so that the bore was a more gradual change from the smaller to the inner diameter. I assumed they were made on a lathe (or some other machine) from a billet.
How did it play? With a Monette mouthpiece, it really sang. When you played with good mechanics (body posture and air/embouchure/mouth “posture”), it was relatively easy to play. Staying in that alert-but-relaxed mode took some effort, though. If you tensed up or tried to play with too much effort or if you relaxed too much, the sound would go dead. It projected really well until you made too much/too little effort. In that sense, it was unforgiving.
Also, to me, the sound was very uniform. It was difficult to color or shade the sound. You got what you got.
Monette had started to make trombone slides. Aaron Levere worked with Monette on the design. He used one for the last year or so while he was with Oregon Symphony, before he moved to Baltimore. I never played one of the slides.
I don’t remember whether they had done anything with the neckpipe or the tuning slide, although I do remember the interior legs of the t-slide were not straight pipes. They were tapered so that the bore was a more gradual change from the smaller to the inner diameter. I assumed they were made on a lathe (or some other machine) from a billet.
How did it play? With a Monette mouthpiece, it really sang. When you played with good mechanics (body posture and air/embouchure/mouth “posture”), it was relatively easy to play. Staying in that alert-but-relaxed mode took some effort, though. If you tensed up or tried to play with too much effort or if you relaxed too much, the sound would go dead. It projected really well until you made too much/too little effort. In that sense, it was unforgiving.
Also, to me, the sound was very uniform. It was difficult to color or shade the sound. You got what you got.
Monette had started to make trombone slides. Aaron Levere worked with Monette on the design. He used one for the last year or so while he was with Oregon Symphony, before he moved to Baltimore. I never played one of the slides.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="jacobgarchik"]<QUOTE author="MStarke" post_id="279033" time="1750329179" user_id="4208">
I am not so deep in these instruments, but the horn and tuba area seems to be very traditional.
[/quote]
you can do a lot with the shape of a tuba.
85611.jpg
ORENM_BLACK_HAT1_1__1_.jpg
D0fVwNEX0AEpbdZ.jpg
you can't do much with the shape of a trombone. the slide is pretty much set. You can mess with the bell section, although pointing it in different directions messes up the ergonomics.
Thus people experimenting with finishes, brace materials, valves, and wrap. But the shapes of the open horn are the same.
</QUOTE>
Straight out of the band in Harry Potter!
I am not so deep in these instruments, but the horn and tuba area seems to be very traditional.
[/quote]
you can do a lot with the shape of a tuba.
85611.jpg
ORENM_BLACK_HAT1_1__1_.jpg
D0fVwNEX0AEpbdZ.jpg
you can't do much with the shape of a trombone. the slide is pretty much set. You can mess with the bell section, although pointing it in different directions messes up the ergonomics.
Thus people experimenting with finishes, brace materials, valves, and wrap. But the shapes of the open horn are the same.
</QUOTE>
Straight out of the band in Harry Potter!
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
I have seen some of those "tuba" designs as well, but they seem to be real one-offs for individual players.
Overall tubas and horns seem to be pretty conservative in those areas. Probably because they still are 95 percent in the classical and orchestral world, while other musical areas allow more deviation.
I just like to see something that's at least a little bit special.
When they were introduced, the Kühnl and Hoyer Slokar trombones were somewhat novelties with their asymmetrical tuning slides, while now they are pretty usual.
Overall tubas and horns seem to be pretty conservative in those areas. Probably because they still are 95 percent in the classical and orchestral world, while other musical areas allow more deviation.
I just like to see something that's at least a little bit special.
When they were introduced, the Kühnl and Hoyer Slokar trombones were somewhat novelties with their asymmetrical tuning slides, while now they are pretty usual.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Tubas have the most variation of any brass instrument! They can point either direction (or forwards!), have top action or front action valves, compensating, 3 to 6 valves, massively different tapers (Kaiser vs York for one example), multiple different shank sizes, cover a huge range of bore and bell sizes, ergonomics for any different tuba you pick up are going to be completely different, the list goes on.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]Tubas have the most variation of any brass instrument! They can point either direction (or forwards!), have top action or front action valves, compensating, 3 to 6 valves, massively different tapers (Kaiser vs York for one example), multiple different shank sizes, cover a huge range of bore and bell sizes, ergonomics for any different tuba you pick up are going to be completely different, the list goes on.[/quote]
Which raises the question: if it’s such a non-standard instrument, how do you know you are playing a tuba? I mean, what if you end up playing a <B>tenor tuba ?!?</B> :shock:
Which raises the question: if it’s such a non-standard instrument, how do you know you are playing a tuba? I mean, what if you end up playing a <B>tenor tuba ?!?</B> :shock:
- NotSkilledHere
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Aug 07, 2024
oh tubas are some creatures for sure. not to mention all different keys and sizes and not to mention those with like 5-6 valves actually can have the 4th, 5th, 6th valves in different orders, different notes, different tuning adjustments, etc. the only thing consistent about tubas is that every tuba player i have ever met complains about the weight.
- mgladdish
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Oct 10, 2021
[quote="jacobgarchik"]<QUOTE author="MStarke" post_id="279033" time="1750329179" user_id="4208">
I am not so deep in these instruments, but the horn and tuba area seems to be very traditional.
[/quote]
you can do a lot with the shape of a tuba.
85611.jpg
ORENM_BLACK_HAT1_1__1_.jpg
D0fVwNEX0AEpbdZ.jpg
you can't do much with the shape of a trombone. the slide is pretty much set. You can mess with the bell section, although pointing it in different directions messes up the ergonomics.
Thus people experimenting with finishes, brace materials, valves, and wrap. But the shapes of the open horn are the same.
</QUOTE>
Yeah, Oren's tuba is wild. I gave him a lift to a gig and he doesn't even bother with a case - just rested it in the back seat of my car :horror:
I am not so deep in these instruments, but the horn and tuba area seems to be very traditional.
[/quote]
you can do a lot with the shape of a tuba.
85611.jpg
ORENM_BLACK_HAT1_1__1_.jpg
D0fVwNEX0AEpbdZ.jpg
you can't do much with the shape of a trombone. the slide is pretty much set. You can mess with the bell section, although pointing it in different directions messes up the ergonomics.
Thus people experimenting with finishes, brace materials, valves, and wrap. But the shapes of the open horn are the same.
</QUOTE>
Yeah, Oren's tuba is wild. I gave him a lift to a gig and he doesn't even bother with a case - just rested it in the back seat of my car :horror:
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
maybe not the original topic but speaking of drastic alterations or designs, anybody mess around with these types of bells?
https://www.instagram.com/mattscustomhorns/
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https://www.instagram.com/mattscustomhorns/
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- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I had a 1958 Conn Bb Tuba that had about that many holes in the bell. But Not that pretty.
Getting back to the original topic.... Does anyone remember the Marcinkiewicz Model 500 Trombone?
With Knurled braces. There is a store in St Pete hat had 3 of them when I 1st moved to Florida. All Brass one was good, Satin Brass one was very good and the Satin Silver one was Stellar 1!! If only I had the $$$$$.......
Getting back to the original topic.... Does anyone remember the Marcinkiewicz Model 500 Trombone?
With Knurled braces. There is a store in St Pete hat had 3 of them when I 1st moved to Florida. All Brass one was good, Satin Brass one was very good and the Satin Silver one was Stellar 1!! If only I had the $$$$$.......
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I tried a Schilke jazz horn at ETW 2013 that had braces like that.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I have a vague memory of playing one of those Marcinkiewicz trombones at Dillon Music some years ago. I remember liking it very much. Too bad they were short-lived.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
For me it is Stomvi. The basic form is original, but so many innovative mechanics and parts. I haven’t had a chance to play them, though, and from the look I think they must be quite heavy.