Closed or Open Wrap?
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
Fellow Enthusiasts,
I am having the rotary valve on my early Corporation-era Bach 42 replaced with an Instrument Innovations valve, and the question came up: retain the original closed wrap, or change to open wrap?
I have heard from those who actually know (Matthew Walker especially) that the wrap itself doesn't play a big role in the function of the F-attachment as compared to the valve itself, but am wondering whether there is perhaps a slight difference nonetheless, and what "the street" has to say about the value of either should I resell the Bach?
I am having the rotary valve on my early Corporation-era Bach 42 replaced with an Instrument Innovations valve, and the question came up: retain the original closed wrap, or change to open wrap?
I have heard from those who actually know (Matthew Walker especially) that the wrap itself doesn't play a big role in the function of the F-attachment as compared to the valve itself, but am wondering whether there is perhaps a slight difference nonetheless, and what "the street" has to say about the value of either should I resell the Bach?
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
The new valve is considerably larger, so some of the original wrap will have to be modified and remounted anyway. A new open wrap adds parts cost but might not be more work. And, if you haven't already, check whether you have any red rot in the current tubing... that might make the decision for you.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
The horn is with Scott Sweeney, I'll leave it to him to diagnose it.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
An open wrap will have no problems with water getting trapped in. As ithinknot mentioned, the valve wrap will need to be modified to match the new valve, and possibly completely reworked. It might be more cost effective to just have it turned into an open wrap in some ways.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
I have never had much trouble with condensation in the valve tubings on any trombones I've ever had, unlike, say, my baritone, which seems to be specially designed to catch as much condensation as possible in all three valves.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I have played many closed wrap horns that I wouldn't change anything because I really like the horn as is, If I was changing out something like the valve, I would probably also open the wrap because I feel like with an open wrap you can have less bracing to the bell and neckpipe, which allows the bell to ring more.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I've played an olsen valve 42B with closed wrap. It's pretty great. But as said here, you'll have to dump water if you play in the valve often enough and that's kind of a bummer.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
With a clean piece of paper, I would go towards a semi-open wrap…. I’d like the neckpipe to be easily modular with a straight pipe (my horns are based on a straight 42).
HOWEVER, I hate really long open wraps. I want to keep it close to the envelope of a straight horn, mostly so I don’t bang it on things behind me. I would also consider very carefully how much pull is on the tuning slide. If it isn’t long enough for a good C and maybe even a B, might as well make it shorter and save the weight.
Cheers,
Andy
HOWEVER, I hate really long open wraps. I want to keep it close to the envelope of a straight horn, mostly so I don’t bang it on things behind me. I would also consider very carefully how much pull is on the tuning slide. If it isn’t long enough for a good C and maybe even a B, might as well make it shorter and save the weight.
Cheers,
Andy
- BrianJohnston
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Jul 11, 2020
There is definitely a sound and a blow difference.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
I don't know that I've ever seen a low C (let alone a B natural) on anything I've had to play on a large-bore tenor, this might suggest where I am in the trombone food chain...
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="JTeagarden"]I don't know that I've ever seen a low C (let alone a B natural) on anything I've had to play on a large-bore tenor, this might suggest where I am in the trombone food chain...[/quote] As far as I now, Bach trombones, even their single valve basses, don't have a long enough tuning slide for an E Pull. The best they can do is flat F so you can play an in tune low C.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Sweeney knows what's up.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="JTeagarden" post_id="279096" time="1750362205" user_id="19182">
I don't know that I've ever seen a low C (let alone a B natural) on anything I've had to play on a large-bore tenor, this might suggest where I am in the trombone food chain...[/quote] As far as I now, Bach trombones, even their single valve basses, don't have a long enough tuning slide for an E Pull. The best they can do is flat F so you can play an in tune low C.
</QUOTE>
Yet another reason I like my (1970) Conn 71H.
I don't know that I've ever seen a low C (let alone a B natural) on anything I've had to play on a large-bore tenor, this might suggest where I am in the trombone food chain...[/quote] As far as I now, Bach trombones, even their single valve basses, don't have a long enough tuning slide for an E Pull. The best they can do is flat F so you can play an in tune low C.
</QUOTE>
Yet another reason I like my (1970) Conn 71H.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="JTeagarden" post_id="279096" time="1750362205" user_id="19182">
I don't know that I've ever seen a low C (let alone a B natural) on anything I've had to play on a large-bore tenor, this might suggest where I am in the trombone food chain...[/quote] As far as I now, Bach trombones, even their single valve basses, don't have a long enough tuning slide for an E Pull. The best they can do is flat F so you can play an in tune low C.
</QUOTE>
Correct. So don’t build in a stupid long tuning slide for no reason. Either fix the design while rebuilding or change it to something that makes sense.
My 0.02
Andy
I don't know that I've ever seen a low C (let alone a B natural) on anything I've had to play on a large-bore tenor, this might suggest where I am in the trombone food chain...[/quote] As far as I now, Bach trombones, even their single valve basses, don't have a long enough tuning slide for an E Pull. The best they can do is flat F so you can play an in tune low C.
</QUOTE>
Correct. So don’t build in a stupid long tuning slide for no reason. Either fix the design while rebuilding or change it to something that makes sense.
My 0.02
Andy
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
Thanks for the responses, I'll let Scott guide me when the time comes.
Nobody seems to be wildly in favor of open wrap other than as a means of avoiding condensation accumulating in the valves, and nobody is suggesting that either configuration is more valuable to a prospective purchaser (as when the Bach comes back, I'll likely keep either it or my Edwards T-350, but not both...)
Nobody seems to be wildly in favor of open wrap other than as a means of avoiding condensation accumulating in the valves, and nobody is suggesting that either configuration is more valuable to a prospective purchaser (as when the Bach comes back, I'll likely keep either it or my Edwards T-350, but not both...)
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="JTeagarden"]... when the Bach comes back, I'll likely keep either it or my Edwards T-350, but not both...[/quote]
That might be a tough decision! :shuffle:
That might be a tough decision! :shuffle:
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="JTeagarden" post_id="279142" time="1750425805" user_id="19182">
... when the Bach comes back, I'll likely keep either it or my Edwards T-350, but not both...[/quote]
That might be a tough decision! :shuffle:
</QUOTE>
I know it! The Edwards took a bit experimenting to get the slide to work properly, and the retention screw on the valve was loose, the horn works very well now, so if the Bach is magic, great, if not, I will keep te Edwards probably.
... when the Bach comes back, I'll likely keep either it or my Edwards T-350, but not both...[/quote]
That might be a tough decision! :shuffle:
</QUOTE>
I know it! The Edwards took a bit experimenting to get the slide to work properly, and the retention screw on the valve was loose, the horn works very well now, so if the Bach is magic, great, if not, I will keep te Edwards probably.