Substitute for Kanstul H8 lead pipe
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
The question is in the title. I have a Bach 16M and am thinking of swapping out the lead pipe for performance. The hive mind recommends the Kanstul H8, but since Kanstul isn’t around anymore and I can’t find anyone selling an old lead pipe, I’m wondering what the next best choice is.
I’m a person who reasons things out, so if you can recommend something, please include why you think that is the best choice. It doesn’t give much to go on when people just name a product with no information why they recommend that one as opposed to another.
BTW the 16M bore is .509.
Thanks! <EMOJI seq="1f60a" tseq="1f60a">😊</EMOJI>
I’m a person who reasons things out, so if you can recommend something, please include why you think that is the best choice. It doesn’t give much to go on when people just name a product with no information why they recommend that one as opposed to another.
BTW the 16M bore is .509.
Thanks! <EMOJI seq="1f60a" tseq="1f60a">😊</EMOJI>
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Burgerbob"]Buy this one
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=41044[/quote]
Thanks! I will!!!
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=41044[/quote]
Thanks! I will!!!
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
Counterpoint: do buy it, and do try it... and then put a new 16 leadpipe back in on a push-fit ring, really well fitted for a removable but tight seal down at the business end. Buy a couple, use the best.
I had a beautiful Corp 16M... leadpipe was mashed (mouthpieces inserting far too deep and wobbling) and needed replacing, so I pulled it. Kanstul H8 wasn't it. Didn't play badly per se, but too big-horn "open but stable" and uncharacteristic. One of Brad's 32H pipes in the .509 version does what the H8 does, but better... it makes the Bach into a good, more predictable/generic horn.
The problem is that there are much more predictable, comfortably generic horns than a 16M, changed leadpipe or not. If you carry on down that route of ironing out the quirks, and ironing out the sound, you end up with a something else... which is fine, and for many people vastly better, but it's something else. (Of which the logical end point is small Raths... and they're good, and they don't sound remotely like a Bach.)
The 16 pipe is short, and very open. Short and very open gives horns a particular sound, and makes them more mouthpiece- and player-fussy... cf. Conn basses (1.5G, please!)... For similar reasons, there's probably more horn-to-horn variation, and the older factory leadpipes (don't know about current production) were fitted with very loose tolerances and no real seal at the transition to the inner tube, so results will vary. A really well-fitted 16 pipe plays like a Bach (in a good way), and sounds like a Bach (ditto). Nothing else really does, and if you're happy to compromise on that point then there are other perfectly nice sounding instruments that are vastly more straightforward to play.
TL;DR: it's very possible that an H8 plays better than your current pipe. If you're invested in That Sound, a real Bach pipe, fitted better than the factory manages, will play better.
I had a beautiful Corp 16M... leadpipe was mashed (mouthpieces inserting far too deep and wobbling) and needed replacing, so I pulled it. Kanstul H8 wasn't it. Didn't play badly per se, but too big-horn "open but stable" and uncharacteristic. One of Brad's 32H pipes in the .509 version does what the H8 does, but better... it makes the Bach into a good, more predictable/generic horn.
The problem is that there are much more predictable, comfortably generic horns than a 16M, changed leadpipe or not. If you carry on down that route of ironing out the quirks, and ironing out the sound, you end up with a something else... which is fine, and for many people vastly better, but it's something else. (Of which the logical end point is small Raths... and they're good, and they don't sound remotely like a Bach.)
The 16 pipe is short, and very open. Short and very open gives horns a particular sound, and makes them more mouthpiece- and player-fussy... cf. Conn basses (1.5G, please!)... For similar reasons, there's probably more horn-to-horn variation, and the older factory leadpipes (don't know about current production) were fitted with very loose tolerances and no real seal at the transition to the inner tube, so results will vary. A really well-fitted 16 pipe plays like a Bach (in a good way), and sounds like a Bach (ditto). Nothing else really does, and if you're happy to compromise on that point then there are other perfectly nice sounding instruments that are vastly more straightforward to play.
TL;DR: it's very possible that an H8 plays better than your current pipe. If you're invested in That Sound, a real Bach pipe, fitted better than the factory manages, will play better.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Burgerbob"]Mine was awesome with a new crook.[/quote]
Yeah, once you replace the crook all the leadpipe options work better... and not less Bach-y, just less odd. (I'm sure Watrous' horn would have had an MV/Peppy matching-bore crook.) I still liked the character of the (replacement) Bach pipe more than anything else, but Brad Close 32H pipe + new crook was probably objectively the easiest/conventionally best-playing.
Yeah, once you replace the crook all the leadpipe options work better... and not less Bach-y, just less odd. (I'm sure Watrous' horn would have had an MV/Peppy matching-bore crook.) I still liked the character of the (replacement) Bach pipe more than anything else, but Brad Close 32H pipe + new crook was probably objectively the easiest/conventionally best-playing.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Burgerbob"]Mine was awesome with a new crook.[/quote]
So, uh, what crook did you use? In for a penny, in for a pound I guess.
So, uh, what crook did you use? In for a penny, in for a pound I guess.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Butler makes pressfit CF lead pipes in 2 lengths. I have one in my 16. Does the job.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Olds Recording from MK Drawing. Transformed the horn, eliminated all the quirks
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Burgerbob"]Olds Recording from MK Drawing. Transformed the horn, eliminated all the quirks[/quote]
Yeah, I don't see that option on their website. Maybe they've stopped providing that?
Yeah, I don't see that option on their website. Maybe they've stopped providing that?
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
- Blabberbucket
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Oct 09, 2022
Most of the .508 players we have worked with have been satisfied by some variation of either the Yamaha LA or NY pipes that O'Malley (Chicago) offers. The seamed NY seems to be the most generally accepted across the board,
Both of the Yamaha pipes have a .415" venturi. Seems like the H8 has a bit larger venturi at .422" or so. We could make either of the Yamaha pipes with a larger venturi for a .509" slide to suit what you're after. We have some other options as well. Reach out to <EMAIL email="Oders@OmalleyHorns.com">Oders@OmalleyHorns.com</EMAIL> if you're interested.
Both of the Yamaha pipes have a .415" venturi. Seems like the H8 has a bit larger venturi at .422" or so. We could make either of the Yamaha pipes with a larger venturi for a .509" slide to suit what you're after. We have some other options as well. Reach out to <EMAIL email="Oders@OmalleyHorns.com">Oders@OmalleyHorns.com</EMAIL> if you're interested.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Well, the guy with the Kanstul ad here says he already sold it, so I'm back on the prowl.
- RJMason
- Posts: 390
- Joined: Jun 05, 2018
The O’Malley leadpipes are really good. I had a couple Kanstul pipes back in the day and these are way better IMO. The NY seamed is indeed my favorite (I have two .508s, yellow and sterling, and now one .500 yellow).
- Blabberbucket
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Oct 09, 2022
Thanks, Ray.
Dana - I just did some looking through my leadpipes and I have a Kanstul H0 pipe, which, to my understanding is the same as the H8 just reduced to fit in a .500" slide. It's about 6.25" long with a venturi of .425", correct? I'm out of the shop for a week or two, but I'm fairly certain I have already measured that pipe out and made a mandrel for it. We also have an H6 that matches the Kanstul specs, and a Herrick pipe supplied by Noah Gladstone that is somewhere in between the H8 and H6, spec-wise.
Dana - I just did some looking through my leadpipes and I have a Kanstul H0 pipe, which, to my understanding is the same as the H8 just reduced to fit in a .500" slide. It's about 6.25" long with a venturi of .425", correct? I'm out of the shop for a week or two, but I'm fairly certain I have already measured that pipe out and made a mandrel for it. We also have an H6 that matches the Kanstul specs, and a Herrick pipe supplied by Noah Gladstone that is somewhere in between the H8 and H6, spec-wise.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Blabberbucket"]Thanks, Ray.
Dana - I just did some looking through my leadpipes and I have a Kanstul H0 pipe, which, to my understanding is the same as the H8 just reduced to fit in a .500" slide. It's about 6.25" long with a venturi of .425", correct? I'm out of the shop for a week or two, but I'm fairly certain I have already measured that pipe out and made a mandrel for it. We also have an H6 that matches the Kanstul specs, and a Herrick pipe supplied by Noah Gladstone that is somewhere in between the H8 and H6, spec-wise.[/quote]
Well! Thanks for that. :)
I'm not terribly knowledgeable about these things, but my first thought about the Kanstul H0 for a .500 bore is that it wouldn't pair well with my .509 bore Bach. I don't know where the tolerance limit is for such things, but it seems like a .009 difference would be too much?
I'm curious about the Herrick pipe, but don't know anything about them. What's that one about?
Dana - I just did some looking through my leadpipes and I have a Kanstul H0 pipe, which, to my understanding is the same as the H8 just reduced to fit in a .500" slide. It's about 6.25" long with a venturi of .425", correct? I'm out of the shop for a week or two, but I'm fairly certain I have already measured that pipe out and made a mandrel for it. We also have an H6 that matches the Kanstul specs, and a Herrick pipe supplied by Noah Gladstone that is somewhere in between the H8 and H6, spec-wise.[/quote]
Well! Thanks for that. :)
I'm not terribly knowledgeable about these things, but my first thought about the Kanstul H0 for a .500 bore is that it wouldn't pair well with my .509 bore Bach. I don't know where the tolerance limit is for such things, but it seems like a .009 difference would be too much?
I'm curious about the Herrick pipe, but don't know anything about them. What's that one about?
- Blabberbucket
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Oct 09, 2022
The H8 and H0 are the same tube made on the same mandrel, to my understanding, and then fit to either .500" or .508" (or .509") depending on the instrument. The H0 is exceptionally thin at the exit for a .500" pipe.
The "H" in the Kanstul H pipes denotes a Herrick style pipe. The pipe we got from Noah is, to the best of my understanding, an original Burt Herrick made pipe. The venturi and exit bore is in between the H6 and H8 pipes, while the length is closer to the H6 but slightly shorter.
Edit: just to be clear, I can make you a pipe based on the H0 pipe that I have that will fit your .509 slide.
The "H" in the Kanstul H pipes denotes a Herrick style pipe. The pipe we got from Noah is, to the best of my understanding, an original Burt Herrick made pipe. The venturi and exit bore is in between the H6 and H8 pipes, while the length is closer to the H6 but slightly shorter.
Edit: just to be clear, I can make you a pipe based on the H0 pipe that I have that will fit your .509 slide.