Sweeney Todd: trombone 2 or 3?
- braymond21
- Posts: 265
- Joined: Mar 18, 2019
Hi all,
I've been asked to play in a production of Sweeney Todd, but they only have room for two trombones in the pit, rather than the 3 that the show is orchestrated for. They gave me both tbn 2 and 3 books, and it seems that they both play the same rhythms, with different notes, for most songs. So I'm wondering which would be better to play primarily, for the cases where both play at the same time. Since it's a more dark and foreboding show, I was thinking 3, but when listening to the recording, many of the notes seem to be doubled on timpani as well.
I've been asked to play in a production of Sweeney Todd, but they only have room for two trombones in the pit, rather than the 3 that the show is orchestrated for. They gave me both tbn 2 and 3 books, and it seems that they both play the same rhythms, with different notes, for most songs. So I'm wondering which would be better to play primarily, for the cases where both play at the same time. Since it's a more dark and foreboding show, I was thinking 3, but when listening to the recording, many of the notes seem to be doubled on timpani as well.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Without more information I'd default to 2nd. Is the 3rd book marked bass trombone? If it is, I might play that. If it's not, I'd play 2nd.
But in the real world I'm probably keeping both books and playing the best parts of each of them.
But in the real world I'm probably keeping both books and playing the best parts of each of them.
- braymond21
- Posts: 265
- Joined: Mar 18, 2019
Well I just listened through the original Broadway cast recording and followed along in the books. For anyone curious, here's what I found:
Most of the parts are played on both parts, just with different notations, but the trombone 3 part is crucial in a handful of pieces. I believe most of the notes in the bone 3 book are octaves from the 1st, it's not quite as crucial as the 2nd for most parts. It's also not marked bass trombone, but is obviously written for bass. If I had to play one, it would be 3, since it would be really missed on those handful of songs and really adds a gravitas that is very noticeable in the recordings.
Of course, I've got both books, so I'll be playing both. I took notes on which part is more important so I'll just switch between the two books as needed, which is always a lot of fun. Now I've just gotta write in all the changes and cues!
Most of the parts are played on both parts, just with different notations, but the trombone 3 part is crucial in a handful of pieces. I believe most of the notes in the bone 3 book are octaves from the 1st, it's not quite as crucial as the 2nd for most parts. It's also not marked bass trombone, but is obviously written for bass. If I had to play one, it would be 3, since it would be really missed on those handful of songs and really adds a gravitas that is very noticeable in the recordings.
Of course, I've got both books, so I'll be playing both. I took notes on which part is more important so I'll just switch between the two books as needed, which is always a lot of fun. Now I've just gotta write in all the changes and cues!
- mikerspencer
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Jul 01, 2022
I once did sweeney with a single trombone. I played first, but bass/3 might have been better. Lots of chord roots missing without bass...
- Schultz
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Have you considered that maybe Bones 2 & 3 might be the best books to play, and leave out Tbn 1, aside from any obvious solos. In many shows Tbn 1 is doubled elsewhere but I don’t know this show though. Just a thought!
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
I would look thoroughly at the books and compare against the score to find if there's any places where I would diverge from that and insert stuff from 2, but my working assumption would be that 3 should be the basic part I play most of the time. Defaulting to covering the bass is never wrong, whereas playing without a bass is often not optimal.
Bass notes being covered by the timpani is not generally a valid reason to skip them. Timpani are an effect/colour, they don't provide bass support. In fact, because they generate a lot of inharmonic overtones, they actually tend to make the bass notes played by other instruments less clear and supportive and "eat up" the bassline. Knowledgeable sound engineers usually try to position timpani as far away as possible from bass instruments in recordings precisely because of this reason. So I would say that the timpani playing those notes could actually be an argument in favour of playing 3rd on those notes, rather than for them not needing to be played.
Bass notes being covered by the timpani is not generally a valid reason to skip them. Timpani are an effect/colour, they don't provide bass support. In fact, because they generate a lot of inharmonic overtones, they actually tend to make the bass notes played by other instruments less clear and supportive and "eat up" the bassline. Knowledgeable sound engineers usually try to position timpani as far away as possible from bass instruments in recordings precisely because of this reason. So I would say that the timpani playing those notes could actually be an argument in favour of playing 3rd on those notes, rather than for them not needing to be played.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
I played on the most recent Broadway production that closed last year with 3 trombone chairs. IF I had the time and the wherewith all I would create my own part from 2 and 3. There are times when having the 2nd part playing along with the 1st part would be supportive and helpful BUT there are many bass trombone moments that are necessary and vital to what's happening on stage. Timpani over bass trombone?? Laughable.
I'd also suggest that the "creative minds" cut a violin or something else to make room for 3 trombone chairs. If you know the score you'd understand while I'm saying this.
I'd also suggest that the "creative minds" cut a violin or something else to make room for 3 trombone chairs. If you know the score you'd understand while I'm saying this.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
We played it for the Opera here several years back. I remember the parts being busy with a few tough(ish?) licks. You should at least have both parts to choose which is better for each song in the show. I like the idea of dumping a string player to make room for 3 trombones, just on principal!
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="CalgaryTbone"]... I like the idea of dumping a string player to make room for 3 trombones, just on principal!
Jim Scott[/quote]
I just feel sorry for the poor violist :evil:
Jim Scott[/quote]
I just feel sorry for the poor violist :evil:
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="CalgaryTbone" post_id="280099" time="1751417059" user_id="3262">
... I like the idea of dumping a string player to make room for 3 trombones, just on principal!
Jim Scott[/quote]
I just feel sorry for the poor violist :evil:
</QUOTE>
Well then let's make it a violinist!!! LOL
... I like the idea of dumping a string player to make room for 3 trombones, just on principal!
Jim Scott[/quote]
I just feel sorry for the poor violist :evil:
</QUOTE>
Well then let's make it a violinist!!! LOL
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
Off topic, but I can't resist;
On the score of the Leopold Mozart - Alto Trombone Concerto, Leopold wrote - "If a suitable alto trombonist is not available, the solo may be played on the viola by a competent violinist."
Early viola joke!
Jim Scott
On the score of the Leopold Mozart - Alto Trombone Concerto, Leopold wrote - "If a suitable alto trombonist is not available, the solo may be played on the viola by a competent violinist."
Early viola joke!
Jim Scott
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The Schutz "History of the Birth of Christ" has two viola parts each marked to also be played on a trombone. Again not a symphonic work, but a use of trombone in orchestra.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
Agree with Bill. Best option would be to have the 3 parts being played, but if that isn't possible combining 2 & 3. And yes, there are some very real bass trombone licks!!
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
I just started working on this myself (3rd part), and was going to say there aren't any real "licks", but yeah there's some stuff. Most of it is in the wheelhouse for a bass player, but there's plenty of it and a few bits that I'll have to work on to feel good about. IMO doublers would likely find it pretty difficult, although I'm not seeing tricky valve work or extreme pedals so I don't think it's out of reach (there are a few loud low B's though).