Recommendations for a Bass Trombone Cup Mute
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Hi Everyone,
I am presently using a Joral for my bass trombone cup mute and I am not digging it. Intonation is not too bad, but there are multiple things that bother me…..
*Reduces my volume by too much. I must work like a dog to create even a pianissimo, even when the cup is out at the farthest point.
*Very front heavy.
*The adjustable cup feature creates more problems than positive options. No matter where I want it to be set, I am always needing to fix it while playing because it moves constantly.
*The adjustable feature makes it tough for quick mute changes. It’s difficult to feel secure about inserting and removing a mute when you are gripping a movable part.
Any suggestions for a bass trombone cup mute that would be lighter and have the cup in a fixed position? All of my horns have the wider “Bach 50 style” taper.
I am presently using a Joral for my bass trombone cup mute and I am not digging it. Intonation is not too bad, but there are multiple things that bother me…..
*Reduces my volume by too much. I must work like a dog to create even a pianissimo, even when the cup is out at the farthest point.
*Very front heavy.
*The adjustable cup feature creates more problems than positive options. No matter where I want it to be set, I am always needing to fix it while playing because it moves constantly.
*The adjustable feature makes it tough for quick mute changes. It’s difficult to feel secure about inserting and removing a mute when you are gripping a movable part.
Any suggestions for a bass trombone cup mute that would be lighter and have the cup in a fixed position? All of my horns have the wider “Bach 50 style” taper.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
1. Morningstar
2. Wick
My Morningstar is VERY slightly heavier than my Wick -- but I think only because it has the fiber bottom. However, I love the sound and intonation of the Morningstar, it's adjustable "corks", and it's indestructable. You can bounce it off the floor and it's undamaged. Essentially, the Morningstar cup can be put in fixed position and you then adjust its position in the bell with the adjustable corks.
2. Wick
My Morningstar is VERY slightly heavier than my Wick -- but I think only because it has the fiber bottom. However, I love the sound and intonation of the Morningstar, it's adjustable "corks", and it's indestructable. You can bounce it off the floor and it's undamaged. Essentially, the Morningstar cup can be put in fixed position and you then adjust its position in the bell with the adjustable corks.
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
One consideration is, what the rest of the section is using.
"shouldn't" be a concern, but some people ARE picky about blend and other such non-sense.
My go-to is my OLD Humes & Berg cup. Had it for YEARS with no problems other than needing new cork.
As far as weight, I rarely have to stick it in my bell, usually rest my bell on my wrist & hold the mute in the bell.
"shouldn't" be a concern, but some people ARE picky about blend and other such non-sense.
My go-to is my OLD Humes & Berg cup. Had it for YEARS with no problems other than needing new cork.
As far as weight, I rarely have to stick it in my bell, usually rest my bell on my wrist & hold the mute in the bell.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
I am not very picky with mutes, but if in doubt, the Denis Wick is certainly a good middle-of-the-road and affordable solution.
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I'm intensely testing the Morningstar mutes since I am a dealer for them. Really excellent mutes, good sound in all ranges - really all ranges.
If your focus is on weight, Butler mutes can't be beaten though.
If your focus is on weight, Butler mutes can't be beaten though.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Some of the marketing for Denis Wick indicates that the bass trombone cup mute is adjustable. Do they have fixed and adjustable models, or just one model?
I do NOT want a movable cup (adjustable) model. That’s what I have now and I’m not happy with it. I’m fine with adjustable corks. It’s the adjustable cup that annoys me.
I have considered taking my present model (Joral) and making the cup fixed with a glue gun or something. How ever, I think it will likely make the mute even heavier on the front.
I do NOT want a movable cup (adjustable) model. That’s what I have now and I’m not happy with it. I’m fine with adjustable corks. It’s the adjustable cup that annoys me.
I have considered taking my present model (Joral) and making the cup fixed with a glue gun or something. How ever, I think it will likely make the mute even heavier on the front.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]Some of the marketing for Denis Wick indicates that the bass trombone cup mute is adjustable. Do they have fixed and adjustable models, or just one model?[/quote]
The cup is removable and can be adjusted closer to the bell, but its pretty tight. Plus, if you have an older one, this may be different. My old tenor Wick cup mute allows the cup to come off the end away from the bell. My newer bass cup has a lip at the end, so the cup only comes off on the bell/cork end. The adjustable aspect of the mute doesn't cause me any consternation.
The cup is removable and can be adjusted closer to the bell, but its pretty tight. Plus, if you have an older one, this may be different. My old tenor Wick cup mute allows the cup to come off the end away from the bell. My newer bass cup has a lip at the end, so the cup only comes off on the bell/cork end. The adjustable aspect of the mute doesn't cause me any consternation.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Bonearzt"]As far as weight, I rarely have to stick it in my bell, usually rest my bell on my wrist & hold the mute in the bell.[/quote]
I find it difficult to play any of the trigger (especially double-trigger) notes if I'm holding the mute in the bell.
I find it difficult to play any of the trigger (especially double-trigger) notes if I'm holding the mute in the bell.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]I do NOT want a movable cup (adjustable) model. That’s what I have now and I’m not happy with it. I’m fine with adjustable corks. It’s the adjustable cup that annoys me.[/quote]
But even if the cup is adjustable, that doesn't mean you need to treat it as adjustable. Just set up the mute (cork position and thickness) so that it fits correctly with the adjustable part in one position (on my Wick mute, this is all the way at the end; on my Morningstar it's all the way pushed on. You might consider replacing the corks on your Wick mute with an S-Mute "Adapter set, which would give you full adjustability of the mute placement: <LINK_TEXT text="https://s-mute.com/products/adapter-set ... bone-mutes">https://s-mute.com/products/adapter-sets-for-other-trombone-mutes</LINK_TEXT>
But even if the cup is adjustable, that doesn't mean you need to treat it as adjustable. Just set up the mute (cork position and thickness) so that it fits correctly with the adjustable part in one position (on my Wick mute, this is all the way at the end; on my Morningstar it's all the way pushed on. You might consider replacing the corks on your Wick mute with an S-Mute "Adapter set, which would give you full adjustability of the mute placement: <LINK_TEXT text="https://s-mute.com/products/adapter-set ... bone-mutes">https://s-mute.com/products/adapter-sets-for-other-trombone-mutes</LINK_TEXT>
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
I have a Humes and Berg as well as a Wick, and I take what best matches the "style" as well as the section. For anything orchestral I'll always take the Wick, but for big band type stuff, often the stone-lined sound is preferable. People want stuff to sound like their old Glen Miller records.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]I have a Humes and Berg as well as a Wick, and I take what best matches the "style" as well as the section. For anything orchestral I'll always take the Wick, but for big band type stuff, often the stone-lined sound is preferable. People want stuff to sound like their old Glen Miller records.[/quote]
This is why I got the Morningstar with the fiber bottom. My H&B bass cup mute is (a) a boat anchor, and (b) doesn't come close to playing in tune (all the way down into the double valve register) as well as the Morningstar. The fiber bottom sound is GREAT!
This is why I got the Morningstar with the fiber bottom. My H&B bass cup mute is (a) a boat anchor, and (b) doesn't come close to playing in tune (all the way down into the double valve register) as well as the Morningstar. The fiber bottom sound is GREAT!
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Crazy4Tbone86" post_id="280115" time="1751457209" user_id="8392">
Some of the marketing for Denis Wick indicates that the bass trombone cup mute is adjustable. Do they have fixed and adjustable models, or just one model?[/quote]
The cup is removable and can be adjusted closer to the bell, but its pretty tight. Plus, if you have an older one, this may be different. My old tenor Wick cup mute allows the cup to come off the end away from the bell. My newer bass cup has a lip at the end, so the cup only comes off on the bell/cork end. The adjustable aspect of the mute doesn't cause me any consternation.
</QUOTE>
When I briefly owned an Olds George Roberts P22, the Wick cup fit in the bell and I could move the cup closer to the bell. With my 50B bells, the cup is up against the lip (at the distal end), and it’s still pretty tight. There’s very little clearance.
I’ve been thinking about replacing the original Wick corks with Sobieralski adjustable corks. If the mute doesn’t go in quite as far, I might be able to adjust the cup a bit. It might change the intonation. It’s one of the those when-I-have-the-time-and-inclination projects.
My old Wick tenor is like yours: the cup comes off the end. I think the design changed a while ago so the lip is at the distal end of the mute.
Some of the marketing for Denis Wick indicates that the bass trombone cup mute is adjustable. Do they have fixed and adjustable models, or just one model?[/quote]
The cup is removable and can be adjusted closer to the bell, but its pretty tight. Plus, if you have an older one, this may be different. My old tenor Wick cup mute allows the cup to come off the end away from the bell. My newer bass cup has a lip at the end, so the cup only comes off on the bell/cork end. The adjustable aspect of the mute doesn't cause me any consternation.
</QUOTE>
When I briefly owned an Olds George Roberts P22, the Wick cup fit in the bell and I could move the cup closer to the bell. With my 50B bells, the cup is up against the lip (at the distal end), and it’s still pretty tight. There’s very little clearance.
I’ve been thinking about replacing the original Wick corks with Sobieralski adjustable corks. If the mute doesn’t go in quite as far, I might be able to adjust the cup a bit. It might change the intonation. It’s one of the those when-I-have-the-time-and-inclination projects.
My old Wick tenor is like yours: the cup comes off the end. I think the design changed a while ago so the lip is at the distal end of the mute.
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="Bonearzt" post_id="280096" time="1751413639" user_id="54">
As far as weight, I rarely have to stick it in my bell, usually rest my bell on my wrist & hold the mute in the bell.[/quote]
I find it difficult to play any of the trigger (especially double-trigger) notes if I'm holding the mute in the bell.
</QUOTE>
Agreed! IF there are notes below the staff, I'll stick it in.
But the majority of the big band stuff I've done in the past several years has not had muted passages in the trigger range.
Just MY experience....
As far as weight, I rarely have to stick it in my bell, usually rest my bell on my wrist & hold the mute in the bell.[/quote]
I find it difficult to play any of the trigger (especially double-trigger) notes if I'm holding the mute in the bell.
</QUOTE>
Agreed! IF there are notes below the staff, I'll stick it in.
But the majority of the big band stuff I've done in the past several years has not had muted passages in the trigger range.
Just MY experience....
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Bonearzt"]But the majority of the big band stuff I've done in the past several years has not had muted passages in the trigger range.[/quote]
In part, this depends on how you play the horn. My "trigger range" extends from well below the staff up into at least the middle of the staff. Yeah, I know that I CAN play some of those notes in the staff without a trigger, but that's not how I approach playing the horn. There are, of course, two schools of thought on all that.
In part, this depends on how you play the horn. My "trigger range" extends from well below the staff up into at least the middle of the staff. Yeah, I know that I CAN play some of those notes in the staff without a trigger, but that's not how I approach playing the horn. There are, of course, two schools of thought on all that.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I'd recommend the Ullven bass cup mute.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
[quote="harrisonreed"]I'd recommend the Ullven bass cup mute.[/quote]
How do you feel about the sound and blending with the Ullven Cups in section stuff? I absolutely love the Harmon mute and play-tested a cup and those different straight mutes. I like how the mutes play but I've felt like the cup wouldn't be a good match with other more common cups, especially Humes&Berg (but Denis Wick or else too).
How do you feel about the sound and blending with the Ullven Cups in section stuff? I absolutely love the Harmon mute and play-tested a cup and those different straight mutes. I like how the mutes play but I've felt like the cup wouldn't be a good match with other more common cups, especially Humes&Berg (but Denis Wick or else too).
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Yeah, I think if you are really looking for a homogeneous sound, having homogeneous mutes is a good idea. They play really well, maybe they won't blend as well.
- heldenbone
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Aug 21, 2018
Just for n-completeness... I had the opportunity to compare a Wick to a Muirhead-Wallace bass cup mute. While the Wallace was noticeably heavier, and still adjustable, it played better (more evenly) connecting pedals to normal unvalved low range. Single and double valve notes were better. It has a vent pre-cut in the bottom to open if you feel the need. I chose the Wallace for the few times I need a cup mute.
- marccromme
- Posts: 457
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Humes and Berg fiber cup mute is what works very good, its the larger one of the two bass cup mutes. Intonation and response vastly improved by building up the corks to about one centimeter height, giving about 2,5 cm clearance between bell and rim of mute. Drilled two holes of circa 3 mm in the bottom, which took away a wolf tone in the double valve register. It is lightweight, easy to install, has the right big band sound, and plays after alterations fine in tune on both my Holton 181 and my Conn 112H. Much better than DW and Wallace, the blue one.
- NathanSobieralski
- Posts: 226
- Joined: Feb 04, 2024
Here is a link to the removable cork adapters I designed, mentioned earlier in the thread:
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://s-mute.com/products/adapter-set ... bone-mutes">https://s-mute.com/products/adapter-sets-for-other-trombone-mutes</LINK_TEXT>
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
Quick Morningstar review! I bought a pair with Aluminum bottoms for my Rath trombones. Fantastic mutes! Plays as good as everyone says they do.
I do have two notes.
#1 The synthetic corks suck. They’re really bad and are already falling apart on my mutes out of the box. I’m going to order a set of removable Salt Shaker mute corks and see if I can convert my Morningstar mutes. The Salt Shaker corks are A+.
#2 Don’t be an idiot like me and think the cup isn’t adjustable. I was wondering why the cup was so far away from the bell until I figured out you can shimmy the cup down. Now it plays perfect! I wish there was a slip of paper with instructions in the box for dummy’s like me.
Highly recommend Morning Star mutes! I’ll report back on how the Salt Shaker corks conversion goes.
I do have two notes.
#1 The synthetic corks suck. They’re really bad and are already falling apart on my mutes out of the box. I’m going to order a set of removable Salt Shaker mute corks and see if I can convert my Morningstar mutes. The Salt Shaker corks are A+.
#2 Don’t be an idiot like me and think the cup isn’t adjustable. I was wondering why the cup was so far away from the bell until I figured out you can shimmy the cup down. Now it plays perfect! I wish there was a slip of paper with instructions in the box for dummy’s like me.
Highly recommend Morning Star mutes! I’ll report back on how the Salt Shaker corks conversion goes.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
Absolute game changer adding the Salt Shaker corks to my Morning Star bass mute. I will have do this to my tenor cup mute as well.
I can now securely twist the mute into my bell and with my full set of different salt shaker corks I can adjust the depth the mute goes in. Fantastic! I did not like how far out the original mute stuck out of my bell.
Putting real corks on the Morning Star Cup mute brought it from a 7.5/10 to a 10/10 in my book.
Only negative I have to say is I have no idea what kind of adhesive or glue was used on the Morning Star mute but it was a massive pain to get off. I was able to simply peel most of it off but the remaining adhesive would just not come off. Over an hour of scrubbing got most of it off and I finally gave up and just sanded the last bit off.
<IMGUR id="a/1RS6QNS">https://imgur.com/a/1RS6QNS</IMGUR>
I can now securely twist the mute into my bell and with my full set of different salt shaker corks I can adjust the depth the mute goes in. Fantastic! I did not like how far out the original mute stuck out of my bell.
Putting real corks on the Morning Star Cup mute brought it from a 7.5/10 to a 10/10 in my book.
Only negative I have to say is I have no idea what kind of adhesive or glue was used on the Morning Star mute but it was a massive pain to get off. I was able to simply peel most of it off but the remaining adhesive would just not come off. Over an hour of scrubbing got most of it off and I finally gave up and just sanded the last bit off.
<IMGUR id="a/1RS6QNS">https://imgur.com/a/1RS6QNS</IMGUR>