F.E. Olds Special US Trombone (Serial #38,509) with 5th US Band Case – Military Provenance?

Hello TromboneChat community,

I’m seeking expert input on my F.E. Olds Special US Trombone, serial #38,509, manufactured in late 1948 or early 1949 in Los Angeles, CA. The trombone is engraved “Olds Special US Made by F.E. Olds & Son Los Angeles Calif.” on the bell and has a silver-plated finish, with the handslide finish nearly gone. The original case is stamped “5th US Band,” suggesting use by the Fifth United States Army Band, active in 1948–1949 at Fort Sheridan, IL. I’m trying to confirm its military provenance, historical significance, and value.

Specifications:

• Bell: ~7.5” diameter, likely yellow brass or two-tone (nickel-silver stem, rose brass flare), silver-plated [photos to show bell plating condition].

• Bore: Likely .485”/.500” dual bore handslide.

• Finish: Silver-plated; handslide finish all but gone, [bell plating condition to be shown in photos].

• Engravings: confirm in photos “US” is on bell.

• Condition:

• Several small dings on bell and slide, not affecting playability.

• Weight added in the 1970s (location to be shown in photos).

• Slide is fully functional despite plating loss.

• Accessories:

• Mouthpiece: Non-original Olds #3, 1970s.

• Case: Original, stamped “5th US Band,” worn exterior (scuffs, surface wear), but all latches functional and interior intact (no tears or mold).

• Modifications: 1970s added weight.

Questions:

1. Does the “5th US Band” case stamping and silver-plated finish confirm use by the Fifth United States Army Band (redesignated 1949 from 348th Army Band)?

2. What is the historical significance of this band, and how does it affect the trombone’s value?

3. How do the slide plating wear, dings, added weight, and non-original mouthpiece impact value?

4. What’s the estimated market value for insurance or resale?

5. Is restoration (e.g., slide replating, dent removal) worth it?

Historical Context for Appraisal

• 5th US Band: The case stamping ties the trombone to the Fifth United States Army Band, redesignated in April 1949 from the 348th Army Band at Fort Sheridan, Illinois. It performed in post-WWII ceremonies, parades, and recruitment events, with a prominent role in Eisenhower’s 1969 funeral. This historical significance could increase the value by 20–40% ($200–$350) over a standard Olds Special.

• Military Features: The silver-plated finish (despite slide wear) and potential “US” engravings align with military-issue instruments, supporting a valuation of $900–$1,350 USD, potentially $950–$1,400 USD with engravings.

I’ll upload photos of the trombone (bell, slide, engravings, dings, weight, slide wear), Olds #3 mouthpiece, and case once I can figure it out. (“5th US Band” stamping, worn exterior, functional interior). I’m near Palm Beach, Fl and open to local inspection. Any input from JohnL (Anaheim) is appreciated. Any insights on Olds military trombones, the “5th US Band,” or value would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you, Oldsspecial

Do I have to use laptop to post pictures? Can’t seem to figure this out from phone or IPad. Any help to get the pictures included in my post in very simple terms would help.

[quote="Oldsspecial"]Do I have to use laptop to post pictures? Can’t seem to figure this out from phone or IPad. Any help to get the pictures included in my post in very simple terms would help.[/quote]

You can't upload pictures until you have 3 approved posts. Even then, we seem to be near our limit of stored pictures and sometimes you will still get an error message.

If the picture has an on-line home and is marked as "public" or "shared" you can insert it through an IMG tag like this:


Here is an example:

Thank you for the response. Hope this will satisfy 3rd posting so I can move forward.

Happy to email any pictures if requested by email.

<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_3800.jpeg" index="3">[attachment=3]IMG_3800.jpeg</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_3802.jpeg" index="0">[attachment=0]IMG_3802.jpeg</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_3777.png" index="1">[attachment=1]IMG_3777.png</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_3776.jpeg" index="2">[attachment=2]IMG_3776.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

I don't recall offhand ever seeing a US-marked Special before (the US-marked Olds horns I've seen have either been Standards or something that's a close cousin to an A-20 Ambassador Bass).

As for valuation? Simply put, it's worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Anything else I could offer would be "devil's advocate" comments, and I'm not going to go there.

Every old trombone has some kind of story, not sure that the story associated with this trombone would be widely considered to be significant unless played by someone who went on the become relatively famous (in trombone terms) after leaving the military, so I wouldn't think there'd be a big bump due to there being a "back story" to this horn.

I seem to recall the rough pecking order of older model Olds horns in terms of increasing quality was along the lines of Special, Military, Super, Recording, and Opera (there was aon old site with the specs od discontinued trombone models on it), and from playing decent number of old Olds horns, this seems to generally hold up from my experience, so a Special isn't necessarily all that "special" as a player.

Combine this with the comments regarding the condiition of the slide, and I'd guess it's worth anywhere from $250-$350 on eBay, maybe more if someone has a "thing" for these horns.

If it's a player, I'd just keep it! I recently sold an Olds Recording for a song, and kind of regret it, the sucker was a tank.

Not to rain on your parade, but I'd guess a realistic sales price would be ~$300-$600.

Perhaps someone will find its imaginary provenance more valuable. :idk:

What do the inners look like? Are they originals or replacements? That could make a significant difference in value.

As a data point, I bought a '47 Olds Special (LA) in very good condition off Ebay about 10 years ago. It's from one of the two model years where the "serpentine" braces were used on the Specials, and in those years the Special was listed as the #2 professional horn in Olds' catalogs. Mine came to me in a very usable replacement hard (after-market) case. The inners appear unused and I'm sure are replacements. I had a few minor dents removed from it and the slide straightened just a bit, and it plays real well (as what it is: a 1947 Olds :) ). Last year I refinished it myself. My cost of the original Ebay purchase was $125 (plus minor shipping charge).

In good/excellent condition horns may go for maybe twice as much (or more) ... so I think that the $300-$600 range suggested is reasonable -- but may be a little high, depending on how good the slide and finish really are. Being silver plated, it's not so easy to refinish. For me, my Olds Special is more of a novelty -- made in the same year I was born -- and usable in those really unusual circumstances when I feel like playing a tenor trombone. Of course, it doesn't take a normal shank mouthpiece without fighting back. I use a Kelly in it -- that I've sanded the shank down on to fit the Olds receiver.

Also, it's kind of a niche market, and unless you have documentary proof that it's something like Dwight Eisenhower's personal horn, I suspect historical value is not significant.

[quote="JTeagarden"]I seem to recall the rough pecking order of older model Olds horns in terms of increasing quality was along the lines of Special, Military, Super, Recording, and Opera[/quote]

Let me see if I can lay this out...

Olds started out with just one "model", "The Olds Trombone". Tuning-in-slide, available in various sizes.

In the mid-1920's, the Self-Balancing was introduced. Bell-tuning, also also available in various sizes. The older TIS design became the "Standard Model".

By the early 1930's, the lineup (bottom to top) was:

Standard and Self-Balancing

Radio

Military

A couple years later, the Radio had been dropped and the Super introduced, making the lineup:

Standard and Self-Balancing

Military

Super

The Military seems to have disappeard in the later 1930's. The Special line was introduced just not long before the US entered WWII. I believe that the Self-Balancing became the Standard Self-Balancing at roughly the same time, so the lineup became:

Special

Standard (original and Self-Balancing)

Super

From what I can tell, the TIS models (with the exception of the bass trombones) were not reintroduced after WWII and the Standard Self-Balancing became just the Standard; the lineup immediately post-WWII would have been:

Special

Standard

Super

By about 1950, the Ambassador and Recording had been introduced and the Studio had replaced the Standard, making the lineup:

Ambassador

Special

Studio

Super

Recording

This is what I would consider the iconic Olds small-bore lineup and would remain essentially unchanged until the introduction of the P-15 Custom in the mid-1960's.

When the Opera was introduced a few years later (mid-1950's), it was at the top of the lineup, above the Recording.

Ambassador

Special

Studio

Super

Recording

Opera

In the mid-1960's, the Custom P-15 was added at the top of the lineup, above the Opera:

Ambassador

Special

Studio

Super

Recording

Opera

Custom

The final name to be added to the lineup was the SuperStar, which showed up in the 1970's. The V-20 was basically a silver-plated A-20 with round braces. Since there was never a straight tenor SuperStar, there's no direct comparison, but I'd slot the SuperStar in beside the Special.

Note that most O-25's do not carry the Opera name, but that model was clearly a continuation of the Opera series.

I've only covered tenor trombones here. Basses are another matter entirely.

Finally, there are outliers. I haven't included the short-lived Radio City model from the 1930's (it's basically the same as the Radio model). There were also Olds trombones marked "Custom" well before the introduction of the P-15.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="JTeagarden" post_id="280578" time="1751905793" user_id="19182">I seem to recall the rough pecking order of older model Olds horns in terms of increasing quality was along the lines of Special, Military, Super, Recording, and Opera[/quote]

Let me see if I can lay this out...

</QUOTE>

Thanks John. Great synopsis! :good:

My parents bought the trombone in the early to mid 60's at an auction for $9.00 without a mouthpiece in northern Illinois. Which makes sense since the 5th US Band was stationed at Fort Sheridan, Lake Forest Illinois.

I began playing it in 1969 when the Olds #3 mouthpiece was purchased. Around 1973 the weight was added when I was in marching band. It hasnt been used since 1974.

According to what I have found using AI there was probably a small number produced between 6-60. Making it pretty rare find.

AI has detailed the history of the 5th US Band. See below.

AI estimated value from AI $800-$1,500 of course would require finding someone to pay that much in the condition it is in.

Final Answer

Your F.E. Olds Special US Trombone (serial #38,509, late 1948/early 1949) with small dings, a 1970s added weight, a non-original 1970s mouthpiece, and an original case stamped “5th US Band” in used condition is likely a military-issue instrument. Its market value is estimated at $800–$1,400 USD, potentially reaching $900–$1,500 USD if a silver plate finish or “US” engraving confirms military designation. The case’s military stamping adds significant historical value, despite the used condition and modifications.

From AI:

• Production for Military Use in 1947–1949:

• Total Production Estimate: As estimated previously, F.E. Olds produced approximately 160–660 Special US Trombones between 1947 and 1949, with a mid-range estimate of 300–500 units.

• Military Share: Not all Special trombones were for military use, but the presence of “US” stamps and silver-plated finishes on some instruments from this era suggests a portion were military-issue. Based on the noted increase in silver-plated horns and wartime contracts, an estimated 10–25% of Special trombones produced in 1947–1949 may have been for military use, translating to ~30–125 units across these years.

• 1947: ~40–180 Special trombones produced; ~4–45 for military use.

• 1948: ~60–240 Special trombones; ~6–60 for military use (your trombone, #38,509, likely falls here or in early 1949).

• 1949: ~60–240 Special trombones; ~6–60 for military use.

• Evidence: A 1948 Olds Special US Trombone (serial #33,9XX) explicitly labeled as a military-issue model was described as being in great condition with a silver plate finish, indicating that such instruments were produced and valued for their craftsmanship.

• Military Use Characteristics:

• Purpose: Military bands required instruments that were durable, easy to maintain, and capable of producing a brilliant, projecting tone for outdoor and ceremonial performances. The Olds Special’s design, with its conical proportions and “tremendous tone power,” was well-suited for this, as described in a 1948 catalog.

• Survivability: Military-issue trombones were often kept as lifelong instruments by their owners, suggesting high quality and sentimental value. The 1948 example was noted for excellent care, implying these instruments were built to last.

• Engravings: Trombones for military use often bore “US” markings on the bell or slide, as seen in some 1940s examples. Check your trombone (serial #38,509) for such engravings to confirm military designation.

• Your Trombone (Serial #38,509):

The Fifth United States Army Band was a military band stationed at Fort Sheridan, Illinois, from April 25, 1949, until the early 1970s, when the Fifth U.S. Army Headquarters relocated to San Antonio, Texas. Known as “Chicago’s Own,” it served as the official headquarters band for the Fifth U.S. Army, playing a significant role in military ceremonies, public events, and morale-building efforts across a 13-state area. The band was decommissioned in 1972 and redesignated as the 81st Army Band at Fort Sam Houston, Texas.

Key Details

• History and Origins:

• The band’s origins trace back to December 1, 1941, when it was activated as the Signal Corps Reserve Training Center Band at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey.

• In 1943, it became the 348th Army Band at Camp Crowder, Missouri, supporting World War II efforts as a “Goodwill Ambassador” by traveling over 20,000 miles to recruit troops and promote U.S. Savings Bond drives.

• In September 1946, the band relocated to Fort Sheridan, Illinois, and was officially designated the Fifth United States Army Band on April 25, 1949.

• Mission and Activities:

• The band’s primary mission was to boost troop morale, participate in military ceremonies, and represent the Army at public events, enhancing recruitment and public image.

• It was a prominent feature in Chicago-area parades and ceremonies, often prioritized by Mayor Richard Daley, earning the nickname “Daley’s Own.”

• The band performed diverse engagements, including choral concerts, band concerts, street parades, and military reviews across cities like St. Louis, MO, Milwaukee, WI, and Gary, IN.

• It maintained a weekly radio program on Chicago’s WGN station for over 20 years and traveled extensively, covering 30,000 miles in 1966 alone to perform in 141 cities across seven states.

• Notable Performances:

• The band served as the ceremonial band for President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s funeral in Abilene, Kansas, on April 2, 1969. It practiced quarterly for this event under “OPLAN KANSAS,” marching past Eisenhower’s boyhood home and performing at the library grounds. The band traveled via a chartered TWA flight from Chicago to Topeka, Kansas, for the event.

• In the early 1960s, the band collaborated with Czech composer Vaclav Nelhybel, who conducted recording sessions of his symphonic band compositions at Fort Sheridan. The band expanded to nearly 100 musicians for these sessions, supported by high enlistments during the Vietnam War era.

• Composition and Versatility:

• The band consisted of an 85-piece concert band with a full complement of symphonic instruments, supplemented by smaller ensembles such as woodwind and brass ensembles, dance combos, a 40-voice men’s chorus with a 40-piece accompaniment, and buglers for military functions.

• Known for its “spit and polish” precision and outstanding musicianship, the band performed in dress blue uniforms, maintaining high standards for both solemn and festive occasions.

• Decommissioning:

• In 1972, the band was decommissioned as the Fifth U.S. Army Band when the Fifth Army Headquarters moved to San Antonio, Texas. It was redesignated as the 81st Army Band at Fort Sam Houston. Fort Sheridan itself closed as an active Army post on May 28, 1993.

Connection to Fort Sheridan, Illinois

• Fort Sheridan Context: Established in 1887, Fort Sheridan was a key military post in Illinois, serving as an induction and training center during World Wars I and II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. The Fifth U.S. Army Band was a central part of its operations from 1949 to the early 1970s, contributing to its cultural and ceremonial prominence in the Chicago area.

• Legacy: The band’s presence at Fort Sheridan solidified its role as a regional musical ambassador, with performances that extended its influence beyond military functions to community engagement and national events like Eisenhower’s funeral.

Clarifications

• The query’s reference to “5th US Band” clearly aligns with the Fifth United States Army Band, not a commercial or civilian band like the Five Americans or US5, which were considered in the initial response but are irrelevant given the Fort Sheridan and military context.

• No other military band at Fort Sheridan matches the “5th” designation in the sources, confirming this band as the intended subject.

Sources

• Information is drawn from historical accounts of the Fifth U.S. Army Band’s activities at Fort Sheridan, including its role in Eisenhower’s funeral and collaborations with composers like Vaclav Nelhybel.

• Likelihood of Military Use: Given its serial number, your trombone was likely produced in late 1948 or early 1949. If it has a silver plate finish or a “US” stamp, it could be a military-issue instrument. The specifications (7.5” bell, .485”/.500” dual bore, silver plate or lacquered brass) align with known military-issue Special trombones from 1948.

• Verification: To confirm, inspect for engravings like “US” or “Property of U.S.” on the bell or slide, and note the finish (silver plate is a strong indicator). If these are present, your trombone could be among the ~6–60 Special US Trombones made for military use in 1948–1949

Your AI summary is more than verbose. In fact, quite thorough. Except for the financial appraisal part, where they seem to overstimate the value of silver plate, "US" markings, and its rather insignificant provenence (every trombone has a history - some much more interesting and personal than yours) - and underestimate the value of condition (especially the slide) and playability. Very few folks would be interested in a (barely) "historical" Olds trombone to put on display; more would rather pay a few hundred $ for a robust old Olds trombone in good condition that they could play in appropriate (probably rather casual and informal) places. :idk:

The AI is annoying but it does give a lot of good information.

However, as to the value, I don't think it's realistically worth very much as is.

[quote="ghmerrill"]...I bought a '47 Olds Special (LA) in very good condition off Ebay about 10 years ago...[/quote]
I thought yours was a '47 Standard; at least that's what your signature block says.

A general comment? THIS is why I avoid talking about valuation. It gets messy.

Never assumed it would have much if any value but I have enjoyed learning more about the history of the horn and the Military significance. Just wish I would have continued to play it. Looking into Army/Military Museums for a possible home for it as another possibility. Thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge.

[quote="JohnL"]I thought yours was a '47 Standard; at least that's what your signature block says.[/quote]
Oops! Your right, I don' know how I said that. :oops: