"Supportive" Lessons
- ryant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Jan 18, 2023
Hey Folks,
I'm trying to read and re-read my question. I want to ensure that I asked it correctly. The responses indicate that I did not. Maybe this is a better version that makes my curiosity more clear:
updated question:
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.
original question:
Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?
rt
I'm trying to read and re-read my question. I want to ensure that I asked it correctly. The responses indicate that I did not. Maybe this is a better version that makes my curiosity more clear:
updated question:
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.
original question:
Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?
rt
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
No. Of course there might be a reason for that. I was very proud of myself in my first lesson with John Swallow. I played an effortless high F. "You can take your high F and 10 cents and get a cup of coffee" I think was the way he put it. This was when you could get a cup of coffee for 10 cents. He wasn't one that was much for blowing smoke up your a$$.
- ryant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Jan 18, 2023
[quote="hyperbolica"]No. Of course there might be a reason for that. I was very proud of myself in my first lesson with John Swallow. I played an effortless high F. "You can take your high F and 10 cents and get a cup of coffee" I think was the way he put it. This was when you could get a cup of coffee for 10 cents. He wasn't one that was much for blowing smoke up your a$$.[/quote]
Are you saying that the reason he responded the way he did was because of your pride? Just want to make sure I understand your meaning.
Are you saying that the reason he responded the way he did was because of your pride? Just want to make sure I understand your meaning.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I may have told this story, but here goes.
My lessons were with a guy named Roy Main, who was known for pumping out lots of professional commercial trombonists.
One day, I showed up to my lesson without having practiced at all that week. Rather than 'fess up, I decided to fake my way through the lesson. The first thing Roy called up was an etude. I hadn't played it even once during the week, so I went to sight read it. I got maybe 3 notes into it when Roy stopped me and had me start again.
Every time I started to play I'd get a few notes into it and Roy would stop and criticize something. It quickly became apparent that I hadn't practiced. So he got more and more sharp and pointed, stopping me every few notes and laying into me very roughly. The whole hour was spent on that one etude, and I didn't even get through it. I left that lesson in tears and sobbed most of the way home.
But you can bet I practiced like crazy the whole following week.
The next week, sure enough, he started with that same etude. I played it flawlessly. He didn't stop me once. I got through the whole thing with as close to perfection as I've ever come. When I was done, Roy simply checked it off and said, "Okay, for next week do this next one."
I said, "Wait a minute! You were so mean to me last week, and treated me so harshly that I left in tears. Now I play it perfectly and I don't even get an acknowledgement of my hard work and improvement? Not even so much as a 'good job'?"
Roy looked me dead in the eye and said flatly, "If you want compliments, go play for your mother."
My jaw hit the floor. I was nonplussed. I couldn't believe it. I felt anger and an outburst rising in me, but Roy stopped me in my tracks.
"Look, my job isn't to praise you," he said. "My job is to make you a better trombone player. It is to identify your weak areas and help you improve them. Lessons may not always be pleasant, but this is how you become a professional trombonist."
I had countless lessons with Roy, but those two lessons are the only ones I remember today. And they are the ones that made the most difference.
Roy Main
My lessons were with a guy named Roy Main, who was known for pumping out lots of professional commercial trombonists.
One day, I showed up to my lesson without having practiced at all that week. Rather than 'fess up, I decided to fake my way through the lesson. The first thing Roy called up was an etude. I hadn't played it even once during the week, so I went to sight read it. I got maybe 3 notes into it when Roy stopped me and had me start again.
Every time I started to play I'd get a few notes into it and Roy would stop and criticize something. It quickly became apparent that I hadn't practiced. So he got more and more sharp and pointed, stopping me every few notes and laying into me very roughly. The whole hour was spent on that one etude, and I didn't even get through it. I left that lesson in tears and sobbed most of the way home.
But you can bet I practiced like crazy the whole following week.
The next week, sure enough, he started with that same etude. I played it flawlessly. He didn't stop me once. I got through the whole thing with as close to perfection as I've ever come. When I was done, Roy simply checked it off and said, "Okay, for next week do this next one."
I said, "Wait a minute! You were so mean to me last week, and treated me so harshly that I left in tears. Now I play it perfectly and I don't even get an acknowledgement of my hard work and improvement? Not even so much as a 'good job'?"
Roy looked me dead in the eye and said flatly, "If you want compliments, go play for your mother."
My jaw hit the floor. I was nonplussed. I couldn't believe it. I felt anger and an outburst rising in me, but Roy stopped me in my tracks.
"Look, my job isn't to praise you," he said. "My job is to make you a better trombone player. It is to identify your weak areas and help you improve them. Lessons may not always be pleasant, but this is how you become a professional trombonist."
I had countless lessons with Roy, but those two lessons are the only ones I remember today. And they are the ones that made the most difference.
Roy Main
- ryant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Jan 18, 2023
[quote="tbdana"]I may have told this story, but here goes.
My lessons were with a guy named Roy Main, who was known for pumping out lots of professional commercial trombonists.
One day, I showed up to my lesson without having practiced at all that week. Rather than 'fess up, I decided to fake my way through the lesson. The first thing Roy called up was an etude. I hadn't played it even once during the week, so I went to sight read it. I got maybe 3 notes into it when Roy stopped me and had me start again.
Every time I started to play I'd get a few notes into it and Roy would stop and criticize something. It quickly became apparent that I hadn't practiced. So he got more and more sharp and pointed, stopping me every few notes and laying into me very roughly. The whole hour was spent on that one etude, and I didn't even get through it. I left that lesson in tears and sobbed most of the way home.
But you can bet I practiced like crazy the whole following week.
The next week, sure enough, he started with that same etude. I played it flawlessly. He didn't stop me once. I got through the whole thing with as close to perfection as I've ever come. When I was done, Roy simply checked it off and said, "Okay, for next week do this next one."
I said, "Wait a minute! You were so mean to me last week, and treated me so harshly that I left in tears. Now I play it perfectly and I don't even get an acknowledgement of my hard work and improvement? Not even so much as a 'good job'?"
Roy looked me dead in the eye and said flatly, "If you want compliments, go play for your mother."
My jaw hit the floor. I was nonplussed. I couldn't believe it. I felt anger and an outburst rising in me, but Roy stopped me in my tracks.
"Look, my job isn't to praise you," he said. "My job is to make you a better trombone player. It is to identify your weak areas and help you improve them. Lessons may not always be pleasant, but this is how you become a professional trombonist."
I had countless lessons with Roy, but those two lessons are the only ones I remember today. And they are the ones that made the most difference.
Roy Main
[/quote]
So that's a no then?
My lessons were with a guy named Roy Main, who was known for pumping out lots of professional commercial trombonists.
One day, I showed up to my lesson without having practiced at all that week. Rather than 'fess up, I decided to fake my way through the lesson. The first thing Roy called up was an etude. I hadn't played it even once during the week, so I went to sight read it. I got maybe 3 notes into it when Roy stopped me and had me start again.
Every time I started to play I'd get a few notes into it and Roy would stop and criticize something. It quickly became apparent that I hadn't practiced. So he got more and more sharp and pointed, stopping me every few notes and laying into me very roughly. The whole hour was spent on that one etude, and I didn't even get through it. I left that lesson in tears and sobbed most of the way home.
But you can bet I practiced like crazy the whole following week.
The next week, sure enough, he started with that same etude. I played it flawlessly. He didn't stop me once. I got through the whole thing with as close to perfection as I've ever come. When I was done, Roy simply checked it off and said, "Okay, for next week do this next one."
I said, "Wait a minute! You were so mean to me last week, and treated me so harshly that I left in tears. Now I play it perfectly and I don't even get an acknowledgement of my hard work and improvement? Not even so much as a 'good job'?"
Roy looked me dead in the eye and said flatly, "If you want compliments, go play for your mother."
My jaw hit the floor. I was nonplussed. I couldn't believe it. I felt anger and an outburst rising in me, but Roy stopped me in my tracks.
"Look, my job isn't to praise you," he said. "My job is to make you a better trombone player. It is to identify your weak areas and help you improve them. Lessons may not always be pleasant, but this is how you become a professional trombonist."
I had countless lessons with Roy, but those two lessons are the only ones I remember today. And they are the ones that made the most difference.
Roy Main
[/quote]So that's a no then?
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
I'd like to suggest that as teachers we can be honest AND supportive. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's also very possible to be an asshole AND teach someone something. The difference is that one lesson comes with guilt and shame which, as far as I'm concerned, have no place in the teacher-student relationship. Nobody should have to endure their teacher. If you had to endure your grumpy teacher at some point and feel like you gained something by it, great. You grew despite adversity. The adversity is not a necessary part of the equation.
Be kind.
Be kind.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ryant"]
Are you saying that the reason he responded the way he did was because of your pride? Just want to make sure I understand your meaning.[/quote]
I hadn't thought of it that way, but maybe. The thing to me seemed that he wasn't going to coddle some young punk with great range and little else to back it up. He might have reacted the same to any number of circus tricks I might have pulled out a bag.
It's nice to be recognized for stuff you do right, but it's more important to know what you do wrong. "Kids these days" are FAR too sensitive about criticism, and tend to get hung up on it. I'm sure we've had this conversation before.
Are you saying that the reason he responded the way he did was because of your pride? Just want to make sure I understand your meaning.[/quote]
I hadn't thought of it that way, but maybe. The thing to me seemed that he wasn't going to coddle some young punk with great range and little else to back it up. He might have reacted the same to any number of circus tricks I might have pulled out a bag.
It's nice to be recognized for stuff you do right, but it's more important to know what you do wrong. "Kids these days" are FAR too sensitive about criticism, and tend to get hung up on it. I'm sure we've had this conversation before.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Kdanielsen"]I'd like to suggest that as teachers we can be honest AND supportive. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's also very possible to be an asshole AND teach someone something. The difference is that one lesson comes with guilt and shame which, as far as I'm concerned, have no place in the teacher-student relationship. Nobody should have to endure their teacher. If you had to endure your grumpy teacher at some point and feel like you gained something by it, great. You grew despite adversity. The adversity is not a necessary part of the equation.
Be kind.[/quote]
I'm sorry, is this supposed to be in response to my story about two of my lessons with Roy Main? The juxtaposition implies it.
Be kind.[/quote]
I'm sorry, is this supposed to be in response to my story about two of my lessons with Roy Main? The juxtaposition implies it.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="hyperbolica"]It's nice to be recognized for stuff you do right, but it's more important to know what you do wrong. "Kids these days" are FAR too sensitive about criticism, and tend to get hung up on it.[/quote]
Yup.
Yup.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="ryant"]
So that's a no then?[/quote]
:mrgreen: :lol: :P :D :mrgreen: :lol: :P :D
I mean, sure, I'd love to play for an hour for an expert and have him shower me with praise. Tell me how great I am. Be impressed with my skills. That would feel marvelous. It's like paying for a massage. It feels great for a little while afterward.
Not sure I'd get anything helpful out of that, though.
So that's a no then?[/quote]
:mrgreen: :lol: :P :D :mrgreen: :lol: :P :D
I mean, sure, I'd love to play for an hour for an expert and have him shower me with praise. Tell me how great I am. Be impressed with my skills. That would feel marvelous. It's like paying for a massage. It feels great for a little while afterward.
Not sure I'd get anything helpful out of that, though.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="281489" time="1752850950" user_id="7231">
I'd like to suggest that as teachers we can be honest AND supportive. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's also very possible to be an asshole AND teach someone something. The difference is that one lesson comes with guilt and shame which, as far as I'm concerned, have no place in the teacher-student relationship. Nobody should have to endure their teacher. If you had to endure your grumpy teacher at some point and feel like you gained something by it, great. You grew despite adversity. The adversity is not a necessary part of the equation.
Be kind.[/quote]
I'm sorry, is this supposed to be in response to my story about two of my lessons with Roy Main? The juxtaposition implies it.
</QUOTE>
Your story and my post are both in response to the topic, which is "supportive" lessons. I suppose they would have to have something to do with each other but I'm not specifically responding to you.
I'd like to suggest that as teachers we can be honest AND supportive. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's also very possible to be an asshole AND teach someone something. The difference is that one lesson comes with guilt and shame which, as far as I'm concerned, have no place in the teacher-student relationship. Nobody should have to endure their teacher. If you had to endure your grumpy teacher at some point and feel like you gained something by it, great. You grew despite adversity. The adversity is not a necessary part of the equation.
Be kind.[/quote]
I'm sorry, is this supposed to be in response to my story about two of my lessons with Roy Main? The juxtaposition implies it.
</QUOTE>
Your story and my post are both in response to the topic, which is "supportive" lessons. I suppose they would have to have something to do with each other but I'm not specifically responding to you.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="281492" time="1752852010" user_id="16498">
I'm sorry, is this supposed to be in response to my story about two of my lessons with Roy Main? The juxtaposition implies it.[/quote]
Your story and my post are both in response to the topic, which is "supportive" lessons. I suppose they would have to have something to do with each other but I'm not specifically responding to you.
</QUOTE>
Okay, thanks.
I'm sorry, is this supposed to be in response to my story about two of my lessons with Roy Main? The juxtaposition implies it.[/quote]
Your story and my post are both in response to the topic, which is "supportive" lessons. I suppose they would have to have something to do with each other but I'm not specifically responding to you.
</QUOTE>
Okay, thanks.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="ryant" post_id="281488" time="1752850509" user_id="16180">
So that's a no then?[/quote]
:mrgreen: :lol: :P :D :mrgreen: :lol: :P :D
I mean, sure, I'd love to play for an hour for an expert and have him shower me with praise. Tell me how great I am. Be impressed with my skills. That would feel marvelous. It's like paying for a massage. It feels great for a little while afterward.
Not sure I'd get anything helpful out of that, though.
</QUOTE>
There are many students out there who are incredibly hard on themselves, and they would get something helpful out of it. Mental health is a huge concern among music students.
So that's a no then?[/quote]
:mrgreen: :lol: :P :D :mrgreen: :lol: :P :D
I mean, sure, I'd love to play for an hour for an expert and have him shower me with praise. Tell me how great I am. Be impressed with my skills. That would feel marvelous. It's like paying for a massage. It feels great for a little while afterward.
Not sure I'd get anything helpful out of that, though.
</QUOTE>
There are many students out there who are incredibly hard on themselves, and they would get something helpful out of it. Mental health is a huge concern among music students.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Kdanielsen"]It's also very possible to be an asshole AND teach someone something.[/quote]
Yeah -- or at least it can happen that someone learns something from the experience with an asshole. And there may be times when working with an asshole (at least for a while) is beneficial because of some special insight, skill or knowledge that the asshole has in some particular area -- but that requires an open-eyed and perhaps somewhat cynical perspective on the part of the student. But I don't see any of that going on in the case of the original description here.
Most people, when criticized about anything, will respond emotionally or defensively -- often taking criticism to be a personal attack of some sort. This isn't entirely unnatural. :) It takes training and experience (and maturity?) to not do that. A lot of people never get that training, and never learn that lesson about criticism without the training.
Positive reinforcement is great, and effective. But if it's the only approach taken (meaning an entirely non-critical one, failing to point out errors and failures), then you're not doing your job as a teacher or coach. And I think we've all seen examples of that.
Yeah -- or at least it can happen that someone learns something from the experience with an asshole. And there may be times when working with an asshole (at least for a while) is beneficial because of some special insight, skill or knowledge that the asshole has in some particular area -- but that requires an open-eyed and perhaps somewhat cynical perspective on the part of the student. But I don't see any of that going on in the case of the original description here.
Most people, when criticized about anything, will respond emotionally or defensively -- often taking criticism to be a personal attack of some sort. This isn't entirely unnatural. :) It takes training and experience (and maturity?) to not do that. A lot of people never get that training, and never learn that lesson about criticism without the training.
Positive reinforcement is great, and effective. But if it's the only approach taken (meaning an entirely non-critical one, failing to point out errors and failures), then you're not doing your job as a teacher or coach. And I think we've all seen examples of that.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="281494" time="1752852409" user_id="16498">
:mrgreen: :lol: :P :D :mrgreen: :lol: :P :D
I mean, sure, I'd love to play for an hour for an expert and have him shower me with praise. Tell me how great I am. Be impressed with my skills. That would feel marvelous. It's like paying for a massage. It feels great for a little while afterward.
Not sure I'd get anything helpful out of that, though.[/quote]
There are many students out there who are incredibly hard on themselves, and they would get something helpful out of it. Mental health is a huge concern among music students.
</QUOTE>
I've never in my life been satisfied with anything I have played. I'm incredibly hard on myself. Being "my own worst critic" is a huge understatement. Yet, I don't go to trombone lessons for psychological comfort. I go to become a better trombone player. I get very little help from being told how wonderful I sound. It feels great. But it doesn't make me better.
There seems to be an assumption in this thread that a teacher is either all happy talk or all asshole. I prefer someone a bit more complex. Sometimes I might need an encouraging word. Sometimes I might need a giant kick in the ass. The teacher I want is the one who knows which one I need in the moment.
:mrgreen: :lol: :P :D :mrgreen: :lol: :P :D
I mean, sure, I'd love to play for an hour for an expert and have him shower me with praise. Tell me how great I am. Be impressed with my skills. That would feel marvelous. It's like paying for a massage. It feels great for a little while afterward.
Not sure I'd get anything helpful out of that, though.[/quote]
There are many students out there who are incredibly hard on themselves, and they would get something helpful out of it. Mental health is a huge concern among music students.
</QUOTE>
I've never in my life been satisfied with anything I have played. I'm incredibly hard on myself. Being "my own worst critic" is a huge understatement. Yet, I don't go to trombone lessons for psychological comfort. I go to become a better trombone player. I get very little help from being told how wonderful I sound. It feels great. But it doesn't make me better.
There seems to be an assumption in this thread that a teacher is either all happy talk or all asshole. I prefer someone a bit more complex. Sometimes I might need an encouraging word. Sometimes I might need a giant kick in the ass. The teacher I want is the one who knows which one I need in the moment.
- ryant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Jan 18, 2023
[quote="ryant"]Hey Folks,
Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?
rt[/quote]
I'm trying to read and re-read my question. I want to ensure that I asked it correctly. The responses indicate that I did not. Maybe this is a better version that makes my curiosity more clear:
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.
Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?
rt[/quote]
I'm trying to read and re-read my question. I want to ensure that I asked it correctly. The responses indicate that I did not. Maybe this is a better version that makes my curiosity more clear:
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I get very little help from being told how wonderful I sound.[/quote]
I tend to be highly skeptical of being told how good I sound -- and the more intense the complement, the more skeptical. Last night the 1st tbn in the section said to me "That sound is AWSOME!" I do appreciate the compliment, but suspect that the sound is closer to "adequate" or maybe even "good". :lol:
Also, "critical" is not equal to "asshole", and should not be taken to be equal to "harmful". Going in either of those directions involves making some assumptions about the teacher that may be very far from the truth -- and more about you than about him or her.
I tend to be highly skeptical of being told how good I sound -- and the more intense the complement, the more skeptical. Last night the 1st tbn in the section said to me "That sound is AWSOME!" I do appreciate the compliment, but suspect that the sound is closer to "adequate" or maybe even "good". :lol:
There seems to be an assumption in this thread that a teacher is either all happy talk or all asshole. I prefer someone a bit more complex.
Also, "critical" is not equal to "asshole", and should not be taken to be equal to "harmful". Going in either of those directions involves making some assumptions about the teacher that may be very far from the truth -- and more about you than about him or her.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I can't think of why I would. I don't need help with the things I already do well. I need help with the stuff I suck at.
Besides, you couldn't fit all the stuff I'm great at into one lesson. :cool: :lol:
Besides, you couldn't fit all the stuff I'm great at into one lesson. :cool: :lol:
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
If i have to pay someone for lessons, I'd rather pay for an expert who is a little rough around the edges socially than a baby sitter who can play trombone. If I also need a psych evaluation, I go to a different expert (who probably doesn't know how to play trombone). Can you be good at both? (a great trombone teacher and psychologist). Maybe, but statistically improbable.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="281506" time="1752855907" user_id="16498">
I get very little help from being told how wonderful I sound.[/quote]
I tend to be highly skeptical of being told how good I sound -- and the more intense the complement, the more skeptical. Last night the 1st tbn in the section said to me "That sound is AWSOME!" I do appreciate the compliment, but suspect that the sound is closer to "adequate" or maybe even "good". :lol: </QUOTE>
You sound just like me. I constantly fight a tendency to discount compliments, and I'm always harder on myself than others are, at least to my face. :D
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="281506" time="1752855907" user_id="16498">There seems to be an assumption in this thread that a teacher is either all happy talk or all asshole. I prefer someone a bit more complex.[/quote]
Also, "critical" is not equal to "asshole", and should not be taken to be equal to "harmful". Going in either of those directions involves making some assumptions about the teacher that may be very far from the truth -- and more about you than about him or her.
</QUOTE>
I used the word asshole only because someone before me did. I agree that critical, even harshly critical, doesn't necessarily translate to asshole, and I also agree that such judgments often say more about the speaker than the target.
Maybe someday I can hang with you. I agree with almost everything you post, so it would be good to hang and figure out why you have such poor judgment. :D
I get very little help from being told how wonderful I sound.[/quote]
I tend to be highly skeptical of being told how good I sound -- and the more intense the complement, the more skeptical. Last night the 1st tbn in the section said to me "That sound is AWSOME!" I do appreciate the compliment, but suspect that the sound is closer to "adequate" or maybe even "good". :lol: </QUOTE>
You sound just like me. I constantly fight a tendency to discount compliments, and I'm always harder on myself than others are, at least to my face. :D
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="281506" time="1752855907" user_id="16498">There seems to be an assumption in this thread that a teacher is either all happy talk or all asshole. I prefer someone a bit more complex.[/quote]
Also, "critical" is not equal to "asshole", and should not be taken to be equal to "harmful". Going in either of those directions involves making some assumptions about the teacher that may be very far from the truth -- and more about you than about him or her.
</QUOTE>
I used the word asshole only because someone before me did. I agree that critical, even harshly critical, doesn't necessarily translate to asshole, and I also agree that such judgments often say more about the speaker than the target.
Maybe someday I can hang with you. I agree with almost everything you post, so it would be good to hang and figure out why you have such poor judgment. :D
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I'm not taking lessons to hear how good I am, although if I get a compliment on one aspect of my playing that's nice. I'm taking lessons to improve and concentrating on the things I'm not doing well is why we are sitting in that room.
From the teacher's perspective it must be nice to be able to follow up a student's lesson only with suggestions on interpretation rather than technical flaws. Problem is, most students still have technical flaws that need to be corrected.
From the teacher's perspective it must be nice to be able to follow up a student's lesson only with suggestions on interpretation rather than technical flaws. Problem is, most students still have technical flaws that need to be corrected.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
[quote="ryant"]<QUOTE author="ryant" post_id="281478" time="1752847578" user_id="16180">
Hey Folks,
Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?
rt[/quote]
I'm trying to read and re-read my question. I want to ensure that I asked it correctly. The responses indicate that I did not. Maybe this is a better version that makes my curiosity more clear:
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.
</QUOTE>
I had many teachers in my undergrad but two always stick out to me. One was wasn’t a great teacher and the other was incredible.
The not so great teacher would only tell me what I was doing wrong and how I’d never succeed without getting better.
The amazing teacher always had positive things to say about my playing and progress. They’d of course point out things that weren’t working but it was never in a negative manner and there was always a positive solution. With that teacher the sky was the limit and I improved exponentially studying with them.
Everyone learns differently but I can confidently say I learn better in a positive learning environment than a negative one.
Hey Folks,
Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?
rt[/quote]
I'm trying to read and re-read my question. I want to ensure that I asked it correctly. The responses indicate that I did not. Maybe this is a better version that makes my curiosity more clear:
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.
</QUOTE>
I had many teachers in my undergrad but two always stick out to me. One was wasn’t a great teacher and the other was incredible.
The not so great teacher would only tell me what I was doing wrong and how I’d never succeed without getting better.
The amazing teacher always had positive things to say about my playing and progress. They’d of course point out things that weren’t working but it was never in a negative manner and there was always a positive solution. With that teacher the sky was the limit and I improved exponentially studying with them.
Everyone learns differently but I can confidently say I learn better in a positive learning environment than a negative one.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Again, this notion that lessons are binary -- either all positive or all negative -- is a shorthand that does not reflect reality. It's a straw man. A fallacy.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="tbdana"]Again, this notion that lessons are binary -- either all positive or all negative -- is a shorthand that does not reflect reality. It's a straw man. A fallacy.[/quote]
You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.
You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
In the lessons I'm familiar with, you get an occasional smile, or nice, or nod, or yes, or right, or good, but you were always working toward the next thing to work on (the next problem). You have to be able to live with that level of affirmation. If you need explicit affirmation to hold things together emotionally, you're in the wrong business.
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="281528" time="1752864092" user_id="16498">
Again, this notion that lessons are binary -- either all positive or all negative -- is a shorthand that does not reflect reality. It's a straw man. A fallacy.[/quote]
You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.
</QUOTE>
Agreed!
Again, this notion that lessons are binary -- either all positive or all negative -- is a shorthand that does not reflect reality. It's a straw man. A fallacy.[/quote]
You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.
</QUOTE>
Agreed!
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="281528" time="1752864092" user_id="16498">
Again, this notion that lessons are binary -- either all positive or all negative -- is a shorthand that does not reflect reality. It's a straw man. A fallacy.[/quote]
You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.
</QUOTE>
I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding you. So, is it your position that a student should not feel guilt or shame for not studying, or not practicing, or not being prepared for class, or not turning assignments in on time? Asking for a friend, because obviously I never did anything like that! LOL
Again, this notion that lessons are binary -- either all positive or all negative -- is a shorthand that does not reflect reality. It's a straw man. A fallacy.[/quote]
You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.
</QUOTE>
I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding you. So, is it your position that a student should not feel guilt or shame for not studying, or not practicing, or not being prepared for class, or not turning assignments in on time? Asking for a friend, because obviously I never did anything like that! LOL
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="ryant"]updated question:
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.
original question:
Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?
[/quote]
I haven't read all the previous replies.
The instrumental music complex is beset with teachers who can't do much more than thumbs-up or thumbs-down to the student's efforts. Their thumbs-up or -down may be a perfectly accurate judgement, but that's not actual teaching.
My most disappointing lessons were when the teacher gave no path forward, no information to act on.
"Keep working on it" is not teaching. Tell me what i need to do differently, I will try to do that. Spare me the disappointed tones and furrowed eyebrows... explain what to do differently.
I have no idea what your interactions with your teacher are like, nor how far short you have fallen in preparing what you have been assigned.
I'm just saying it's possible the teacher is not addressing the shortfall properly.
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.
original question:
Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?
[/quote]
I haven't read all the previous replies.
The instrumental music complex is beset with teachers who can't do much more than thumbs-up or thumbs-down to the student's efforts. Their thumbs-up or -down may be a perfectly accurate judgement, but that's not actual teaching.
My most disappointing lessons were when the teacher gave no path forward, no information to act on.
"Keep working on it" is not teaching. Tell me what i need to do differently, I will try to do that. Spare me the disappointed tones and furrowed eyebrows... explain what to do differently.
I have no idea what your interactions with your teacher are like, nor how far short you have fallen in preparing what you have been assigned.
I'm just saying it's possible the teacher is not addressing the shortfall properly.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ryant"]Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?[/quote]
At some point, there has to be some indication of what needs improvement and how to go about improving it. If not, what are you going to be working on for the next lesson?
That said, I do think there's a need for some positive feedback. Obviously there will always be room for improvement in every aspect of one's playing, so positive feedback needs to be along the lines of "that's better, here's how you can build on it."
At some point, there has to be some indication of what needs improvement and how to go about improving it. If not, what are you going to be working on for the next lesson?
That said, I do think there's a need for some positive feedback. Obviously there will always be room for improvement in every aspect of one's playing, so positive feedback needs to be along the lines of "that's better, here's how you can build on it."
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
In response to the edited OP, here goes:
No. Students, especially performance majors, need to hear the following:
"You're not going to make it in the performance world at this rate. Maybe you'll get the job in Central Ohio that pays $1870 per year. Good luck making a living. But if you try harder, maybe that could change."
They need to hear that even if they are Peter Steiner, learning from Alessi the conservatory. Then they come out and do Peter Steiner things.
Far too many music students out there getting pumped up for jobs they aren't going to win, because those jobs *don't exist*. And it's not their fault. High F's and smooth cantabile legato are more common these days than cheap eggs at the grocery store.
No. Students, especially performance majors, need to hear the following:
"You're not going to make it in the performance world at this rate. Maybe you'll get the job in Central Ohio that pays $1870 per year. Good luck making a living. But if you try harder, maybe that could change."
They need to hear that even if they are Peter Steiner, learning from Alessi the conservatory. Then they come out and do Peter Steiner things.
Far too many music students out there getting pumped up for jobs they aren't going to win, because those jobs *don't exist*. And it's not their fault. High F's and smooth cantabile legato are more common these days than cheap eggs at the grocery store.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Um. I think there are nuances here.
Just as you teach technique customized to what that student needs, rather than one size fits all, wouldn't you also have some appreciation for their mental/emotional outlook? Especially with younger students?
Just as you teach technique customized to what that student needs, rather than one size fits all, wouldn't you also have some appreciation for their mental/emotional outlook? Especially with younger students?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Nuance, yes! Of course, nuance is easier in the lesson room than it is on the internet. A message board is a rather blunt medium.
I can see a young student or a casual student ("I'm just in it for marching band, then I'm going to engineering school") on the far left side of the spectrum, with the highly motivated young professional on the far right side of the spectrum, and the majority of students somewhere in-between.
What's the point of laying into someone who is only taking lessons because his parents are making him or to get out of P.E.? None. Completely counter-productive, and futile to boot. But the person gunning for that major symphony gig needs to be pushed like an Olympic athlete. Being the best means pushing yourself to the very edge of human limits.
It won't do any good to tell that engineering student, "While you're not even practicing an hour a day, someone else is out there practicing 8 hours a day." And it won't do any good to tell the young gunner, "Don't worry about missing a few days of practice this week; you already sound so good."
And in the middle, we have the Great Unwashed who are doing it just for fun but need to be pushed to do better, and sometimes they need a hug, and sometimes they need to be hit upside the head with a bat.
I can see a young student or a casual student ("I'm just in it for marching band, then I'm going to engineering school") on the far left side of the spectrum, with the highly motivated young professional on the far right side of the spectrum, and the majority of students somewhere in-between.
What's the point of laying into someone who is only taking lessons because his parents are making him or to get out of P.E.? None. Completely counter-productive, and futile to boot. But the person gunning for that major symphony gig needs to be pushed like an Olympic athlete. Being the best means pushing yourself to the very edge of human limits.
It won't do any good to tell that engineering student, "While you're not even practicing an hour a day, someone else is out there practicing 8 hours a day." And it won't do any good to tell the young gunner, "Don't worry about missing a few days of practice this week; you already sound so good."
And in the middle, we have the Great Unwashed who are doing it just for fun but need to be pushed to do better, and sometimes they need a hug, and sometimes they need to be hit upside the head with a bat.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
If that's the kind of lessons this thread is about, then that's a different vocation completely. Effective Middle School / High School teachers are saints.
If the question is, "have I personally wanted a lesson where the teacher tells me what I'm doing well and nothing else", which is how it reads:
Nah.
If the question is, "have I personally wanted a lesson where the teacher tells me what I'm doing well and nothing else", which is how it reads:
Nah.
- ryant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Jan 18, 2023
I must say, this has been very enlightening. Thank you all for participating in my tangent.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="281536" time="1752867711" user_id="7231">
You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.[/quote]
I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding you. So, is it your position that a student should not feel guilt or shame for not studying, or not practicing, or not being prepared for class, or not turning assignments in on time? Asking for a friend, because obviously I never did anything like that! LOL
</QUOTE>
My position is that students already feel guilt and shame about that and teachers should be supportive and helpful, not heap on more. For students who don't care, teaching them guilt is not productive. Teach them why practicing is important instead, or how to prioritize or whatever. Guilt and shame are not healthy motivators whether it’s coming from a teacher or within.
You yourself stated that you are never satisfied with anything you’ve done. That’s hard! Me too, by the way. Validating a student’s hard work can help teach them how to do this for themselves.
Frankly we have an industry filled with people that have powerful but sometimes destructive coping strategies that are not always worth passing onto students. We can be healthier and kinder, and I think that leads to more and better art.
You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.[/quote]
I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding you. So, is it your position that a student should not feel guilt or shame for not studying, or not practicing, or not being prepared for class, or not turning assignments in on time? Asking for a friend, because obviously I never did anything like that! LOL
</QUOTE>
My position is that students already feel guilt and shame about that and teachers should be supportive and helpful, not heap on more. For students who don't care, teaching them guilt is not productive. Teach them why practicing is important instead, or how to prioritize or whatever. Guilt and shame are not healthy motivators whether it’s coming from a teacher or within.
You yourself stated that you are never satisfied with anything you’ve done. That’s hard! Me too, by the way. Validating a student’s hard work can help teach them how to do this for themselves.
Frankly we have an industry filled with people that have powerful but sometimes destructive coping strategies that are not always worth passing onto students. We can be healthier and kinder, and I think that leads to more and better art.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Kris, thank you for explaining your position. I respect it.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
I took lessons off an on from an orchestral player in Texas when I was in my twenties, once I got over his snide bedside manner (he was right as far as my playing was concerned), I made a point of "showing him."
So even a bit caustic can be OK, athough I suspect this style of treaching has largely disappeared.
So even a bit caustic can be OK, athough I suspect this style of treaching has largely disappeared.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Kdanielsen"]Frankly we have an industry filled with people that have powerful but sometimes destructive coping strategies...[/quote]
There is a certain kind of person who can not calmly deal with the repetition inherent in teaching. They get exasperated at having to explain the same things to each new batch of students.
Internally they are saying, "If I've told you kids once, I've told you a thousand times..."
There is a certain kind of person who can not calmly deal with the repetition inherent in teaching. They get exasperated at having to explain the same things to each new batch of students.
Internally they are saying, "If I've told you kids once, I've told you a thousand times..."
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi all.
Well , Tbdana first replay about Roy Maine approach remember me about my main teacher .
Sometimes we took an hour over a single etude, and he was stpping me every moment , but he was so relaxed , peaceful , and kind , that at the end of the lesson there was not guilt or shame at all , and I was just thinking "he Is TOTALLY right : I want to be a professional , so I have to work hard , etc !".
In my opinion , the way a teacher said things make the difference . Never be rude , and probably you can make ALL the critiques you need to say . And , of course , also point off the positive things that a student Is good at .
Regards
Giancarlo
Well , Tbdana first replay about Roy Maine approach remember me about my main teacher .
Sometimes we took an hour over a single etude, and he was stpping me every moment , but he was so relaxed , peaceful , and kind , that at the end of the lesson there was not guilt or shame at all , and I was just thinking "he Is TOTALLY right : I want to be a professional , so I have to work hard , etc !".
In my opinion , the way a teacher said things make the difference . Never be rude , and probably you can make ALL the critiques you need to say . And , of course , also point off the positive things that a student Is good at .
Regards
Giancarlo
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I just got some wonderful positive feedback from someone, today. It felt great. But it didn't make me a better player.
It's the nature of the internet, I suppose, but we're too black and white and narrowly focused in our discussion here, I think. A gigantic range of philosophies, feedback, and motivational techniques can be valid. In my story about those two lessons with Roy Main, that kick in the butt was exactly what I needed in that moment. And that's why I remember that, and why I still love Roy after that. He was an incredibly good and kind man who beat the heck out of me because he correctly discerned that that was the correct technique to lay on me (not someone else) at that time (not some other time).
I don't think anyone here is advocating for being a jerk. I don't think anyone here is advocating for coddling people. I think everyone has their own approach and if they are effective teachers they have a whole tool box of things they can whip out to help students improve. And the really good teachers know which tool to use with which student on which day.
But, you know, some don't have a lot of tools, and for them it's "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
I've never seen a single Olympic gold medalist earn that award with only positive, feel-good feedback. There is room for tough talk.
It's the nature of the internet, I suppose, but we're too black and white and narrowly focused in our discussion here, I think. A gigantic range of philosophies, feedback, and motivational techniques can be valid. In my story about those two lessons with Roy Main, that kick in the butt was exactly what I needed in that moment. And that's why I remember that, and why I still love Roy after that. He was an incredibly good and kind man who beat the heck out of me because he correctly discerned that that was the correct technique to lay on me (not someone else) at that time (not some other time).
I don't think anyone here is advocating for being a jerk. I don't think anyone here is advocating for coddling people. I think everyone has their own approach and if they are effective teachers they have a whole tool box of things they can whip out to help students improve. And the really good teachers know which tool to use with which student on which day.
But, you know, some don't have a lot of tools, and for them it's "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
I've never seen a single Olympic gold medalist earn that award with only positive, feel-good feedback. There is room for tough talk.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]And the really good teachers know which tool to use with which student on which day.[/quote]
Yeah, and they don't exactly spring out of the womb like that. That's something THEY have to learn -- and it takes time and some number of students and experiences to get there. And some never do. With luck, they will leave teaching and take a different path.
Yeah, and they don't exactly spring out of the womb like that. That's something THEY have to learn -- and it takes time and some number of students and experiences to get there. And some never do. With luck, they will leave teaching and take a different path.
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi agaiin .
Backing to OP , I really do not see the purpose of a lesson in which a teacher focused only on the things that a student Is doing well.
In my opinion , a teacher have to say things as they are ...
Regards
Giancarlo
Backing to OP , I really do not see the purpose of a lesson in which a teacher focused only on the things that a student Is doing well.
In my opinion , a teacher have to say things as they are ...
Regards
Giancarlo
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I recall that back in the mid/late 1970s (at least) there was an approach to "parenting" (which I believe was called "positive parenting") where the techniques of instruction emphasized "redirection" and "distraction" in order to avoid any sort of direct "correction" or "criticism". It was very popular in academic circles. So, for example (and one I vividly recall seeing in action by some colleagues at the time, applied to their own children) was that you don't say something like "Don't stick your fingers into the electrical outlets!" You don't say anything about the (highly attractive to 2-year olds) electrical outlets. Instead, you say things like "Come over here and we'll read this book." or "Oh, look out the window at those birds." or some such. The avowed advantages and goals of this approach were primarily to avoid "criticism" and "shame". I think this is still quite popular, although its efficacy and effects are still debated.
If you extend this broadly to "teaching", you have an approach where any direct criticism is to be avoided (for the same reasons as in the parenting case). I can't think of how to make it work in the subjects I taught, but maybe Socrates made it work. Of course, we know what happened to Socrates.
If you extend this broadly to "teaching", you have an approach where any direct criticism is to be avoided (for the same reasons as in the parenting case). I can't think of how to make it work in the subjects I taught, but maybe Socrates made it work. Of course, we know what happened to Socrates.
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
I think all lessons should be supportive. But always very honest. And honest is the key word. We all say "how are you" and we answer "fine, thank you" but it doesn't mean much.
I think a lesson should mean something and be supportive, but it has to be honestly.
As a teacher I say it depends so much on who you teach. If it is a kid or a grown up. What personality the person have. It's important to know the person you teach. Then you know how to be honest, but still in a supportive way.
Honest means address things thats working, but also things thats not working.
I think a lesson should mean something and be supportive, but it has to be honestly.
As a teacher I say it depends so much on who you teach. If it is a kid or a grown up. What personality the person have. It's important to know the person you teach. Then you know how to be honest, but still in a supportive way.
Honest means address things thats working, but also things thats not working.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
I've never seen a single Olympic gold medalist earn that award with only positive, feel-good feedback. There is room for tough talk.
It is tempting to think that is the secret sauce to making champions.
But consider that probably everyone in an Olympic finals likely had those intense coaches, the coaches who swore and stomped and spit and told them they were "dirt!"
At that level and even far below that they are all the creatures of elite coaches who demand 110% from them every day and never let them think they are good enough.
It's not uncommon to watch a final heat in an event and see that several competitors from different countries had literally the same coaches, because they all attended the same US college. :shuffle:
And yet, only one of them will get the gold medal. Same snarls, same tough love... different outcome.
I submit that the screaming and the shouting is not what made the champion and not what made the championship difference.
Remember that old "Actor's Studio" clip where the famous teacher declares "shouting is not acting!"
Shouting is not teaching either.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="ryant"]
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
[/quote]
No. Never.
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
[/quote]
No. Never.
- ryant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Jan 18, 2023
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="ryant" post_id="281478" time="1752847578" user_id="16180">
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
[/quote]
No. Never.
</QUOTE>
Love the direct answer!
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
[/quote]
No. Never.
</QUOTE>
Love the direct answer!
- mbarbier
- Posts: 367
- Joined: May 17, 2018
I had a teacher who's whole approach was let's identify what you are good at because those are the things you've figured out. He has a line about what you do well is cookie dough and we're going to roll it out into the parts of your playing that don't have any yet. I found that approach to be incredibly effective - it was ignoring what was bad but connecting it to what you do well so you're not fixing problems from scratch- you're building on the skills that helped you figure other stuff out.
Similarly with my students and recording I make them name and equal number of positive, negative, and neutral things they hear in the recording so that they're learning to hear their playing more objectively. It's not ignoring thing that need to be fixed, but trying to have an honest listen rather than just a negative one.
I've found those approaches helpful in my learning and teaching. Not exclusively positive, but focuses on that side much more.
Similarly with my students and recording I make them name and equal number of positive, negative, and neutral things they hear in the recording so that they're learning to hear their playing more objectively. It's not ignoring thing that need to be fixed, but trying to have an honest listen rather than just a negative one.
I've found those approaches helpful in my learning and teaching. Not exclusively positive, but focuses on that side much more.
- Buffalospiritgathering
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Apr 26, 2025
My college trombone professors basically killed my desire to play with relentless, overbearing criticism.
I take lessons because I want to get better, not be torn down.
I don't need anything sugar coated, but someone people think it's a good thing to leave a lesson crying... If you do it enough, you'll lose the fire that got you going in the first place, or worse, criticize your own playing to death.
There's definitely room to say "that sucked. You know better".
I take lessons because I want to get better, not be torn down.
I don't need anything sugar coated, but someone people think it's a good thing to leave a lesson crying... If you do it enough, you'll lose the fire that got you going in the first place, or worse, criticize your own playing to death.
There's definitely room to say "that sucked. You know better".
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Some essential context that is absent here is... What is ryant's position in the trombone world?
Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?
Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?
Somewhere in between?
Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?
Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?
Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?
Somewhere in between?
Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="robcat2075"]Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?[/quote]
A good question for each of us! :D
A good question for each of us! :D
- ryant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Jan 18, 2023
[quote="robcat2075"]Some essential context that is absent here is... What is ryant's position in the trombone world?
Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?
Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?
Somewhere in between?
Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?[/quote]
Not trying to be elusive, but I'm not sure this context really matters. I was just curious how all you fine people felt about this. I've never really thought about wanting a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what I'm doing well, but I did want to know how you all felt about it.
Did I catch a King of the Hill reference in your question?
Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?
Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?
Somewhere in between?
Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?[/quote]
Not trying to be elusive, but I'm not sure this context really matters. I was just curious how all you fine people felt about this. I've never really thought about wanting a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what I'm doing well, but I did want to know how you all felt about it.
Did I catch a King of the Hill reference in your question?
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="ryant"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="281809" time="1753202504" user_id="3697">
Some essential context that is absent here is... What is ryant's position in the trombone world?
Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?
Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?
Somewhere in between?
Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?[/quote]
Not trying to be elusive, but I'm not sure this context really matters. I was just curious how all you fine people felt about this. I've never really thought about wanting a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what I'm doing well, but I did want to know how you all felt about it.
Did I catch a King of the Hill reference in your question?
</QUOTE>
I think it matters a lot. Some people are answering your question from the point of view of a grade school beginning trombone student, where it would make sense to me to be encouraging so that the student stays interested in music and doesn't become discouraged and give up. Others are answering from the point of view of a college student who intends to have a career as a performer. In that case, I think there's little to be gained by giving a student false hope that they are progressing at a sufficient rate to make it in an extremely tough business. If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.
Some essential context that is absent here is... What is ryant's position in the trombone world?
Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?
Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?
Somewhere in between?
Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?[/quote]
Not trying to be elusive, but I'm not sure this context really matters. I was just curious how all you fine people felt about this. I've never really thought about wanting a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what I'm doing well, but I did want to know how you all felt about it.
Did I catch a King of the Hill reference in your question?
</QUOTE>
I think it matters a lot. Some people are answering your question from the point of view of a grade school beginning trombone student, where it would make sense to me to be encouraging so that the student stays interested in music and doesn't become discouraged and give up. Others are answering from the point of view of a college student who intends to have a career as a performer. In that case, I think there's little to be gained by giving a student false hope that they are progressing at a sufficient rate to make it in an extremely tough business. If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
NOTICE TO ALL TROMBONE PLAYERS ON LAND, SEA OR IN THE AIR, PRESENT AND FUTURE.
The following passage was quoted to serve as context, as an example of the all-or-nothing dicision which many commenters often apply to the hypothetical trombone students discussed in this thread.
It is not meant to suggest that brassmedic is the only person to ever to omit discussion of the many other students in between the "all" and the "nothing". It is but one example.
[/EDIT]
...a grade school beginning trombone student...a college student who intends to have a career as a performer.
There is a substantial middle ground that college teachers need to be prepared for... the college player who doesn't want a career as a performer, yet is taking private lessons.
At my under graduate school certainly more than half of our top concert band were not music majors at all. They were business, science, engineering, pre-law... and especially pre-med majors who had been counseled that to get into the "dream" graduate school they wanted to get into they needed to show they were more than just another 4.0 GPA.
Call them "resume padders" if you want, but it did work for several of my friends including two pediatricians, a heart surgeon, several nurses, a veterinarian, a lawyer, and a trombone player who did very well for himself as a geologist at an oil company.
They were all able players and some of them were stunningly good. But at the same time it was difficult for them to keep woodshedding on that horn among all the other difficult things they had to do.
My point is... if you're going to teach them you're going to need better motivational chops than telling them, "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician."
ADDITIONAL NOTICE TO ALL TROMBONE PLAYERS ON LAND, SEA OR IN THE AIR, PRESENT AND FUTURE.
The "you" and "you're" in this passage are intended as plural not singular:
if you're going to teach them you're going to need better motivational chops than telling them...
Furthermore,
...sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician.is a paraphrase, not an exact quote from brassmedic's original post.
The original statement was:
If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.
[/EDIT]
- ryant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Jan 18, 2023
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="ryant" post_id="281819" time="1753211355" user_id="16180">
Not trying to be elusive, but I'm not sure this context really matters. I was just curious how all you fine people felt about this. I've never really thought about wanting a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what I'm doing well, but I did want to know how you all felt about it.
Did I catch a King of the Hill reference in your question?[/quote]
I think it matters a lot. Some people are answering your question from the point of view of a grade school beginning trombone student, where it would make sense to me to be encouraging so that the student stays interested in music and doesn't become discouraged and give up. Others are answering from the point of view of a college student who intends to have a career as a performer. In that case, I think there's little to be gained by giving a student false hope that they are progressing at a sufficient rate to make it in an extremely tough business. If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.
</QUOTE>
Ok, fair enough. I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe. Middle aged family man, former military musician. Started playing in the early 90's. I've played some jazz, some rock. Played a couple gigs with some orchestras. Taught private lessons to jr high and high school students. Did some brass teaching at the high school level. Traveled the world.
Was super cocky in my youth. I let my playing define me. Kinda ruined music for me, that led me to put the horn away for a long time.
Took about a decade off of playing, just now getting back into it.
I've recently asked some people to mentor me in non-musical pursuits. I've come to understand the value of knowing your strengths. Was curious if anyone here thought there was value in getting a clear picture of their strengths from a trusted teacher, not every lesson, but like a once in a while thing. Not trying to say we should tell people who suck at trombone that they're gonna be the next Larry Wiehe. But there is great value in knowing your strengths.
Not looking to argue or even debate anyone. I am honestly just curious if people here would find value in having a single lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well.
Not trying to be elusive, but I'm not sure this context really matters. I was just curious how all you fine people felt about this. I've never really thought about wanting a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what I'm doing well, but I did want to know how you all felt about it.
Did I catch a King of the Hill reference in your question?[/quote]
I think it matters a lot. Some people are answering your question from the point of view of a grade school beginning trombone student, where it would make sense to me to be encouraging so that the student stays interested in music and doesn't become discouraged and give up. Others are answering from the point of view of a college student who intends to have a career as a performer. In that case, I think there's little to be gained by giving a student false hope that they are progressing at a sufficient rate to make it in an extremely tough business. If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.
</QUOTE>
Ok, fair enough. I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe. Middle aged family man, former military musician. Started playing in the early 90's. I've played some jazz, some rock. Played a couple gigs with some orchestras. Taught private lessons to jr high and high school students. Did some brass teaching at the high school level. Traveled the world.
Was super cocky in my youth. I let my playing define me. Kinda ruined music for me, that led me to put the horn away for a long time.
Took about a decade off of playing, just now getting back into it.
I've recently asked some people to mentor me in non-musical pursuits. I've come to understand the value of knowing your strengths. Was curious if anyone here thought there was value in getting a clear picture of their strengths from a trusted teacher, not every lesson, but like a once in a while thing. Not trying to say we should tell people who suck at trombone that they're gonna be the next Larry Wiehe. But there is great value in knowing your strengths.
Not looking to argue or even debate anyone. I am honestly just curious if people here would find value in having a single lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="281826" time="1753216818" user_id="4102">
...a grade school beginning trombone student...a college student who intends to have a career as a performer.[/quote]
There is a substantial middle ground that college teachers need to be prepared for... the college player who doesn't want a career as a performer, yet is taking private lessons.
At my under graduate school certainly more than half of our top concert band were not music majors at all. They were business, science, engineering, pre-law... and especially pre-med majors who had been counseled that to get into the "dream" graduate school they wanted to get into they needed to show they were more than just another 4.0 GPA.
Call them "resume padders" if you want, but it did work for several of my friends including two pediatricians, a heart surgeon, several nurses, a veterinarian, a lawyer, and a trombone player who did very well for himself as a geologist at an oil company.
They were all able players and some of them were stunningly good. But at the same time it was difficult for them to keep woodshedding on that horn among all the other difficult things they had to do.
My point is... if you're going to teach them you're going to need better motivational chops than telling them, "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician."
</QUOTE>
Putting a lot of words in my mouth there. First of all, I was talking about the demographic of music majors who intend to have a career as a performer, not non-majors who are learning trombone as a hobby. I thought I was pretty clear on that. Second, I never, ever, said anyone should say "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician." There are much better ways to get your point across.
...a grade school beginning trombone student...a college student who intends to have a career as a performer.[/quote]
There is a substantial middle ground that college teachers need to be prepared for... the college player who doesn't want a career as a performer, yet is taking private lessons.
At my under graduate school certainly more than half of our top concert band were not music majors at all. They were business, science, engineering, pre-law... and especially pre-med majors who had been counseled that to get into the "dream" graduate school they wanted to get into they needed to show they were more than just another 4.0 GPA.
Call them "resume padders" if you want, but it did work for several of my friends including two pediatricians, a heart surgeon, several nurses, a veterinarian, a lawyer, and a trombone player who did very well for himself as a geologist at an oil company.
They were all able players and some of them were stunningly good. But at the same time it was difficult for them to keep woodshedding on that horn among all the other difficult things they had to do.
My point is... if you're going to teach them you're going to need better motivational chops than telling them, "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician."
</QUOTE>
Putting a lot of words in my mouth there. First of all, I was talking about the demographic of music majors who intend to have a career as a performer, not non-majors who are learning trombone as a hobby. I thought I was pretty clear on that. Second, I never, ever, said anyone should say "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician." There are much better ways to get your point across.
- bimmerman
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
[quote="Buffalospiritgathering"]I take lessons because I want to get better, not be torn down.[/quote]
Yep, this. there's a time and a place for being read for filth, but if it's consistent over many lessons, that will not help you get better. The best teachers I've had were able to tell me what I'm bad at and how to improve, not just that I'm bad at X.
I think there's also a world of difference between teaching for an aspiring pro vs a motivated amateur.
Yep, this. there's a time and a place for being read for filth, but if it's consistent over many lessons, that will not help you get better. The best teachers I've had were able to tell me what I'm bad at and how to improve, not just that I'm bad at X.
I think there's also a world of difference between teaching for an aspiring pro vs a motivated amateur.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
[quote="robcat2075"]Some essential context that is absent here is... What is ryant's position in the trombone world?
Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?
Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?
Somewhere in between?
Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?[/quote]
Volltreffer.
You have to establish what someone's goals are, anf give them up-front guidance on just what that means in terms of your expectations of them.
I had a young woman who reported to me at a previous employer who wanted to be promoted ASAP, and so I told her that I would support her goal, but this meant being subject to a level of criticism she might find offputting (since the gap between "ist" and "soll" was quite big).
With that in mind, she endured a bit more "tough love" than she might have otherwise, if she hadn't been clear about her goals.
Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?
Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?
Somewhere in between?
Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?[/quote]
Volltreffer.
You have to establish what someone's goals are, anf give them up-front guidance on just what that means in terms of your expectations of them.
I had a young woman who reported to me at a previous employer who wanted to be promoted ASAP, and so I told her that I would support her goal, but this meant being subject to a level of criticism she might find offputting (since the gap between "ist" and "soll" was quite big).
With that in mind, she endured a bit more "tough love" than she might have otherwise, if she hadn't been clear about her goals.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]
Putting a lot of words in my mouth there. First of all, I was talking about the demographic of music majors who intend to have a career as a performer, not non-majors who are learning trombone as a hobby. I thought I was pretty clear on that.[/quote]
Yes, it was clear you were NOT talking about that large group of non-majors that no one is talking about... ones that also need to be considered.
That's why i quote you... to introduce the reason for my further comment.
No need to re-tread the ground you have already tread. I'm pointing to... an additional factor that needs to be considered, a factor that always seems to be omitted by everyone in these debates.
you said this:
None-the-less I will amend my original post to clarify.
Putting a lot of words in my mouth there. First of all, I was talking about the demographic of music majors who intend to have a career as a performer, not non-majors who are learning trombone as a hobby. I thought I was pretty clear on that.[/quote]
Yes, it was clear you were NOT talking about that large group of non-majors that no one is talking about... ones that also need to be considered.
That's why i quote you... to introduce the reason for my further comment.
No need to re-tread the ground you have already tread. I'm pointing to... an additional factor that needs to be considered, a factor that always seems to be omitted by everyone in these debates.
Second, I never, ever, said anyone should say "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician." There are much better ways to get your point across.
you said this:
If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.
None-the-less I will amend my original post to clarify.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
I have been a music educator for 39 years. I have taught all age levels…….elementary school through college. My private lesson students have varied in age from 7 to 89. Over the years, these small morsels of advice have probably been the best guidance for me:
*Remember the 90/10 rule (I have also heard it as the 80/20 rule). Always run every class, lesson or rehearsal with 90% positive statements and only 10% critical or negative statements. It is tough to do with some students, but makes for a much healthier learning environment.
*In a class or ensemble, always teach to the upper 1/3 of the group. People know if a teacher is “dumbing it down” and that can lead to an unmotivated group dynamic. A teacher can always explain/review things for clarification if a student or students inquire, but keep the content, expectations and flow of class/rehearsal aimed at the top 1/3 of the group. In most situations, the lower 2/3 will want to be part of something successful and work hard to reach that higher level.
*In one-on-one teaching, always have expectations that are one notch higher than the student is currently playing. If you are asking a student to do something routine (lip slur exercise, scale, etc…), always add an extra expectation that will elevate their playing. If you are saying,”I don’t know what to do with this student to make them better,” you should not be teaching that student.
*People inherently know when their time is being wasted. From young to old, musicians don’t want to just go through the motions or play music or in an ensemble that is beneath them. The teacher must make things interesting, engaging and challenging for the musician(s). If people are dropping out of a lesson program or an ensemble consistently, the educator must take a serious look within them self and figure out how to make their teaching a growing and learning process that is much more engaging.
*Remember the 90/10 rule (I have also heard it as the 80/20 rule). Always run every class, lesson or rehearsal with 90% positive statements and only 10% critical or negative statements. It is tough to do with some students, but makes for a much healthier learning environment.
*In a class or ensemble, always teach to the upper 1/3 of the group. People know if a teacher is “dumbing it down” and that can lead to an unmotivated group dynamic. A teacher can always explain/review things for clarification if a student or students inquire, but keep the content, expectations and flow of class/rehearsal aimed at the top 1/3 of the group. In most situations, the lower 2/3 will want to be part of something successful and work hard to reach that higher level.
*In one-on-one teaching, always have expectations that are one notch higher than the student is currently playing. If you are asking a student to do something routine (lip slur exercise, scale, etc…), always add an extra expectation that will elevate their playing. If you are saying,”I don’t know what to do with this student to make them better,” you should not be teaching that student.
*People inherently know when their time is being wasted. From young to old, musicians don’t want to just go through the motions or play music or in an ensemble that is beneath them. The teacher must make things interesting, engaging and challenging for the musician(s). If people are dropping out of a lesson program or an ensemble consistently, the educator must take a serious look within them self and figure out how to make their teaching a growing and learning process that is much more engaging.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]NOTICE TO ALL TROMBONE PLAYERS ON LAND, SEA OR IN THE AIR, PRESENT AND FUTURE.
The following passage was quoted to serve as context, as an example of the all-or-nothing dicision which many commenters often apply to the hypothetical trombone students discussed in this thread.
It is not meant to suggest that brassmedic is the only person to ever to omit discussion of the many other students in between the "all" and the "nothing". It is but one example.[/quote]
Setting aside your completely uncalled for snide tone, I did not omit anything, nor did I pretend it was an "all or nothing" situation. I simply gave two extreme examples of different scenarios under which people were responding to the OP. That's the whole POINT - that the situation matters when you are determining how to communicate with a student. I sure didn't expect to get brutally and sarcastically attacked for that.
you said this:
None-the-less I will amend my original post to clarify.
</QUOTE>
And then you edited the previous post to say you were "paraphrasing" me? I don't think you know what "paraphrase" means. In your mind, you can't see ANY middle ground between completely hiding the fact that your student needs to work on certain things, and bluntly telling them "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician."? There are literally hundreds of things you could say besides that. Thank god I had teachers who told me what I needed to work on, and didn't just ignore everything I was doing wrong. I never would have become a professional musician.
But thanks for reminding me why I don't like to post in the Tangents section. You just get attacked for daring to have an opinion on something, and often get attacked for things you didn't even say. :roll:
The following passage was quoted to serve as context, as an example of the all-or-nothing dicision which many commenters often apply to the hypothetical trombone students discussed in this thread.
It is not meant to suggest that brassmedic is the only person to ever to omit discussion of the many other students in between the "all" and the "nothing". It is but one example.[/quote]
Setting aside your completely uncalled for snide tone, I did not omit anything, nor did I pretend it was an "all or nothing" situation. I simply gave two extreme examples of different scenarios under which people were responding to the OP. That's the whole POINT - that the situation matters when you are determining how to communicate with a student. I sure didn't expect to get brutally and sarcastically attacked for that.
<QUOTE> (Me): Second, I never, ever, said anyone should say "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician." There are much better ways to get your point across.
you said this:
If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.
None-the-less I will amend my original post to clarify.
</QUOTE>
And then you edited the previous post to say you were "paraphrasing" me? I don't think you know what "paraphrase" means. In your mind, you can't see ANY middle ground between completely hiding the fact that your student needs to work on certain things, and bluntly telling them "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician."? There are literally hundreds of things you could say besides that. Thank god I had teachers who told me what I needed to work on, and didn't just ignore everything I was doing wrong. I never would have become a professional musician.
But thanks for reminding me why I don't like to post in the Tangents section. You just get attacked for daring to have an opinion on something, and often get attacked for things you didn't even say. :roll:
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="brassmedic"]But thanks for reminding me why I don't like to post in the Tangents section. You just get attacked for daring to have an opinion on something, and often get attacked for things you didn't even say. :roll:[/quote]
Brad, there are really just one or two posters here who attack people, get snide, mischaracterize, and go passive-aggressive on people. I have those two set on "ignore," so I simply don't see their posts anymore, and I never have to grapple with whatever nonsense they say. Please consider putting offenders on ignore, and do please keep posting in Tangents. I, for one, value your posts, and I'd hate for them to go missing.
Brad, there are really just one or two posters here who attack people, get snide, mischaracterize, and go passive-aggressive on people. I have those two set on "ignore," so I simply don't see their posts anymore, and I never have to grapple with whatever nonsense they say. Please consider putting offenders on ignore, and do please keep posting in Tangents. I, for one, value your posts, and I'd hate for them to go missing.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Such an interesting question, what sparked it?
I've taken and taught lessons that were more positive than others. As was mentioned earlier, music students can be pretty hard on themselves and we all can use a boost from time to time. I can recall an early lesson with my undergraduate teacher where we didn't play at all, but just talked about why I wanted to be a music major and what the pros and cons of a career as a musician would mean for me.
But I don't think I've ever taken or taught a lesson that was completely about what was already going well. A lesson, by definition, involves working to improve and that necessarily involves feedback on what is not working as well.
Of course "feedback" doesn't mean positive or negative, it can be either. "Don't slouch," is a negative approach, where "Sit up straight," would be a positive way to frame the same feedback. It's often easier for teachers to slide into negative feedback, it takes some effort to frame suggestions in a positive way.
Both are OK, but it's generally acknowledged these days that framing feedback in a positive way makes for better student progress in the long term. Sure, sometimes a criticism about what's not going well can light a fire under the student and lead to progress too, but the more this is the norm the less effective it will become long term.
Dave
I've taken and taught lessons that were more positive than others. As was mentioned earlier, music students can be pretty hard on themselves and we all can use a boost from time to time. I can recall an early lesson with my undergraduate teacher where we didn't play at all, but just talked about why I wanted to be a music major and what the pros and cons of a career as a musician would mean for me.
But I don't think I've ever taken or taught a lesson that was completely about what was already going well. A lesson, by definition, involves working to improve and that necessarily involves feedback on what is not working as well.
Of course "feedback" doesn't mean positive or negative, it can be either. "Don't slouch," is a negative approach, where "Sit up straight," would be a positive way to frame the same feedback. It's often easier for teachers to slide into negative feedback, it takes some effort to frame suggestions in a positive way.
Both are OK, but it's generally acknowledged these days that framing feedback in a positive way makes for better student progress in the long term. Sure, sometimes a criticism about what's not going well can light a fire under the student and lead to progress too, but the more this is the norm the less effective it will become long term.
Dave
- ryant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Jan 18, 2023
The question probably sparked from me training my dog. He is very smart, and a lot of times I'll let him lead the training, as described by Mike Ritland. I will let him choose what to do, mark and reward the good things and ignore behaviors I don't want. We have learned many tricks and good behaviors this way. I feel the need to reiterate that I am not suggesting this as the only method of teaching, I was just curious if anyone else saw the benefit of doing something like this with our craft. Even if it was a one time thing.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Wilktone"]"Don't slouch," is a negative approach, where "Sit up straight," would be a positive way to frame the same feedback. ...
Both are OK, but it's generally acknowledged these days that framing feedback in a positive way makes for better student progress in the long term.[/quote]
That's because under this construal/illustration of "positive" and "negative", the negative comment tells you what NOT to do (I.e., what you're doing wrong), but not HOW to do what is right. Providing positive feedback (in the sense of saying what SHOULD be done (rather than just an amorphous comment like "You're doing x well." -- essentially just a vague encouraging pat on the head) is exactly the sort of guidance that the student should be getting from a genuine "teacher". But the "negative" comment is valuable as well -- to equally deter the student from developing or continuing bad habits. Two different sides of the teaching coin, each of which is necessary. Positive feedback without negative evaluation of error can be just as detrimental and confusing as negative feedback without positive guidance.
Both are OK, but it's generally acknowledged these days that framing feedback in a positive way makes for better student progress in the long term.[/quote]
That's because under this construal/illustration of "positive" and "negative", the negative comment tells you what NOT to do (I.e., what you're doing wrong), but not HOW to do what is right. Providing positive feedback (in the sense of saying what SHOULD be done (rather than just an amorphous comment like "You're doing x well." -- essentially just a vague encouraging pat on the head) is exactly the sort of guidance that the student should be getting from a genuine "teacher". But the "negative" comment is valuable as well -- to equally deter the student from developing or continuing bad habits. Two different sides of the teaching coin, each of which is necessary. Positive feedback without negative evaluation of error can be just as detrimental and confusing as negative feedback without positive guidance.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="Wilktone" post_id="282567" time="1754057844" user_id="220">
"Don't slouch," is a negative approach, where "Sit up straight," would be a positive way to frame the same feedback. ...
Both are OK, but it's generally acknowledged these days that framing feedback in a positive way makes for better student progress in the long term.[/quote]
That's because under this construal/illustration of "positive" and "negative", the negative comment tells you what NOT to do (I.e., what you're doing wrong), but not HOW to do what is right. Providing positive feedback (in the sense of saying what SHOULD be done (rather than just an amorphous comment like "You're doing x well." -- essentially just a vague encouraging pat on the head) is exactly the sort of guidance that the student should be getting from a genuine "teacher". But the "negative" comment is valuable as well -- to equally deter the student from developing or continuing bad habits. Two different sides of the teaching coin, each of which is necessary. Positive feedback without negative evaluation of error can be just as detrimental and confusing as negative feedback with positive guidance.
</QUOTE>
I prefer both. "Don't slouch. Stand up straight."
"Don't slouch," is a negative approach, where "Sit up straight," would be a positive way to frame the same feedback. ...
Both are OK, but it's generally acknowledged these days that framing feedback in a positive way makes for better student progress in the long term.[/quote]
That's because under this construal/illustration of "positive" and "negative", the negative comment tells you what NOT to do (I.e., what you're doing wrong), but not HOW to do what is right. Providing positive feedback (in the sense of saying what SHOULD be done (rather than just an amorphous comment like "You're doing x well." -- essentially just a vague encouraging pat on the head) is exactly the sort of guidance that the student should be getting from a genuine "teacher". But the "negative" comment is valuable as well -- to equally deter the student from developing or continuing bad habits. Two different sides of the teaching coin, each of which is necessary. Positive feedback without negative evaluation of error can be just as detrimental and confusing as negative feedback with positive guidance.
</QUOTE>
I prefer both. "Don't slouch. Stand up straight."
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I prefer both. "Don't slouch. Stand up straight."[/quote]
I left out a rather critical preposition in my final sentence. :redface: Corrected now. (Someone should have provide that negative evaluation fairly quickly. :roll: )
I left out a rather critical preposition in my final sentence. :redface: Corrected now. (Someone should have provide that negative evaluation fairly quickly. :roll: )
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="ryant"]The question probably sparked from me training my dog. He is very smart, and a lot of times I'll let him lead the training, as described by Mike Ritland. I will let him choose what to do, mark and reward the good things and ignore behaviors I don't want. We have learned many tricks and good behaviors this way. I feel the need to reiterate that I am not suggesting this as the only method of teaching, I was just curious if anyone else saw the benefit of doing something like this with our craft. Even if it was a one time thing.[/quote]
Well I said I didn't want to post here anymore, but I couldn't resist. This is purely in jest, of course, but it reminded me of The Simpsons:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1Q ... 7860301953">https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1QxVmo/1SpcUd.mp4?1627860301953</LINK_TEXT>
Well I said I didn't want to post here anymore, but I couldn't resist. This is purely in jest, of course, but it reminded me of The Simpsons:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1Q ... 7860301953">https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1QxVmo/1SpcUd.mp4?1627860301953</LINK_TEXT>
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]
Well I said I didn't want to post here anymore, but I couldn't resist. This is purely in jest, of course, but it reminded me of The Simpsons:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1Q ... 7860301953">https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1QxVmo/1SpcUd.mp4?1627860301953</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
Bart forgot to say "Good dog" as positive reinforcement. :pant:
Well I said I didn't want to post here anymore, but I couldn't resist. This is purely in jest, of course, but it reminded me of The Simpsons:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1Q ... 7860301953">https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1QxVmo/1SpcUd.mp4?1627860301953</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
Bart forgot to say "Good dog" as positive reinforcement. :pant:
- ryant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Jan 18, 2023
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="ryant" post_id="282569" time="1754058243" user_id="16180">
The question probably sparked from me training my dog. He is very smart, and a lot of times I'll let him lead the training, as described by Mike Ritland. I will let him choose what to do, mark and reward the good things and ignore behaviors I don't want. We have learned many tricks and good behaviors this way. I feel the need to reiterate that I am not suggesting this as the only method of teaching, I was just curious if anyone else saw the benefit of doing something like this with our craft. Even if it was a one time thing.[/quote]
Well I said I didn't want to post here anymore, but I couldn't resist. This is purely in jest, of course, but it reminded me of The Simpsons:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1Q ... 7860301953">https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1QxVmo/1SpcUd.mp4?1627860301953</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>
Well I'm glad I could bring you back on a very light an much appreciated note!
The question probably sparked from me training my dog. He is very smart, and a lot of times I'll let him lead the training, as described by Mike Ritland. I will let him choose what to do, mark and reward the good things and ignore behaviors I don't want. We have learned many tricks and good behaviors this way. I feel the need to reiterate that I am not suggesting this as the only method of teaching, I was just curious if anyone else saw the benefit of doing something like this with our craft. Even if it was a one time thing.[/quote]
Well I said I didn't want to post here anymore, but I couldn't resist. This is purely in jest, of course, but it reminded me of The Simpsons:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1Q ... 7860301953">https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1QxVmo/1SpcUd.mp4?1627860301953</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>
Well I'm glad I could bring you back on a very light an much appreciated note!
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="ryant"]The question probably sparked from me training my dog. He is very smart, and a lot of times I'll let him lead the training, as described by Mike Ritland. I will let him choose what to do, mark and reward the good things and ignore behaviors I don't want. We have learned many tricks and good behaviors this way. I feel the need to reiterate that I am not suggesting this as the only method of teaching, I was just curious if anyone else saw the benefit of doing something like this with our craft. Even if it was a one time thing.[/quote]
Positive Behavioral Interventions and Support (PBIS) is an analogue to what you're describing in education. While there are critics of PBIS (some valid), it is an evidence-based approach and many schools, including the school district that hosts the El Sistema program I work for, use it.
One of the basic ideas is that when a student behaves well (think elementary school, which is the largest population the program I work for serves) you reward and reinforce that behavior. The emphasis is to prevent negative behaviors and reward good behaviors, rather than to discipline poor behavior (not that you don't ever discipline, but that is seen as a last resort).
One of the criticisms that I agree with is that utilizing PBIS tends to make the motivation to do well extrinsic (please the teacher or parents) rather than intrinsic (I want to do well because I enjoy this activity on its own merits). Probably less of an issue with your dog than with human students.
Note that PBIS is more of a classroom or school-wide approach, not really something I would necessarily try to implement in private lessons, although certain elements might be used. For example, you can reward a student for their hard practice the week prior by having a fun activity for the end of the lesson.
Positive Behavioral Interventions and Support (PBIS) is an analogue to what you're describing in education. While there are critics of PBIS (some valid), it is an evidence-based approach and many schools, including the school district that hosts the El Sistema program I work for, use it.
One of the basic ideas is that when a student behaves well (think elementary school, which is the largest population the program I work for serves) you reward and reinforce that behavior. The emphasis is to prevent negative behaviors and reward good behaviors, rather than to discipline poor behavior (not that you don't ever discipline, but that is seen as a last resort).
One of the criticisms that I agree with is that utilizing PBIS tends to make the motivation to do well extrinsic (please the teacher or parents) rather than intrinsic (I want to do well because I enjoy this activity on its own merits). Probably less of an issue with your dog than with human students.
Note that PBIS is more of a classroom or school-wide approach, not really something I would necessarily try to implement in private lessons, although certain elements might be used. For example, you can reward a student for their hard practice the week prior by having a fun activity for the end of the lesson.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
That's all very interesting. To me, there is an obvious difference between training a dog and teaching a trombone student. The dog isn't necessarily interested in the behavior it is being taught. A dog doesn't need or want to roll over, beg, sit, or lie down on command. So you are forcing it to associate the behavior with receiving a reward. Otherwise there would be no motivation. But a trombone student, at least in theory, is interested in learning to play the trombone, so there should be at least some intrinsic motivation that doesn't need to be implanted by linking it to an unrelated reward. And the self motivation increases the further the student progresses. For example, when I was a performance major in college, I very much wanted to become the best trombone player I could be, and I didn't need to rely on my teacher to motivate me. What do you think?
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
There is some value in positive and negative feedback in learning an instrument. I don't think you would progress much if all of your instruction time focused on what you are doing well, because those elements don't need as much work as the stuff that's not going so well.
My teacher was tough on his students, but I never felt that it was cruel or mean-spirited. One thing about that teaching style was that when you would achieve the goal, he was also as animated in his praise as he had been in any criticism before. When he would say something like "that's it!" and "good job!", it really meant something. I would leave those lessons ready to take on the world.
Somewhat related to all of this discussion, I remember reading an article on teaching/practicing by Ray Mase (trumpet of the American Brass Quintet (retired) and Juilliard faculty). One thing that stuck with me was that he advocated setting aside about 15-20 minutes a day to play some music that you can play very well. His point was to first have some pure enjoyment in your practice, and second to try to bring all of those playing qualities that you enjoy in that music to the music where you needed to improve your skills. The best players make the tough stuff sound easy and some of that is not throwing away great tone and phrasing when playing their most difficult passages.
Jim Scott
My teacher was tough on his students, but I never felt that it was cruel or mean-spirited. One thing about that teaching style was that when you would achieve the goal, he was also as animated in his praise as he had been in any criticism before. When he would say something like "that's it!" and "good job!", it really meant something. I would leave those lessons ready to take on the world.
Somewhat related to all of this discussion, I remember reading an article on teaching/practicing by Ray Mase (trumpet of the American Brass Quintet (retired) and Juilliard faculty). One thing that stuck with me was that he advocated setting aside about 15-20 minutes a day to play some music that you can play very well. His point was to first have some pure enjoyment in your practice, and second to try to bring all of those playing qualities that you enjoy in that music to the music where you needed to improve your skills. The best players make the tough stuff sound easy and some of that is not throwing away great tone and phrasing when playing their most difficult passages.
Jim Scott