TECH QUESTION: Carbon Build Up Removal
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
Back in the mid-2000s, a tech showed me how to disassemble valves, and he said he used blue toilet bowl cleaner (Lysol I think) to remove carbon buildup. Is this still a legit thing? Will a vinegar bath also remove it? I have 5% and 30% vinegar if that helps. Or any other go-to products?
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
rotor in question:
The inside of the valve wrap and tuning slides are also all coated in it.
The inside of the valve wrap and tuning slides are also all coated in it.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Lhbone"]Back in the mid-2000s, a tech showed me how to disassemble valves, and he said he used blue toilet bowl cleaner (Lysol I think) to remove carbon buildup. Is this still a legit thing? Will a vinegar bath also remove it? I have 5% and 30% vinegar if that helps. Or any other go-to products?[/quote]
What's the source of this dark contamination? Are you sure that it's carbon?
What's the source of this dark contamination? Are you sure that it's carbon?
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
The deposit is not "carbon". The Blue/green stuff is lime scale. That can be removed with an acid solution, either in a basic soak, or in an ultrasonic cleaner. The blackness is oxidation, cussed by exposure to water. Some of that will also be removed by the acid treatment.
This is a very basic outline as to what is going on. There is a LOT more to it, like how long to immerse the part, what can/cannot be immersed, what specific acids can/cannot be used. What should be done "before" and "after" the acid treatment. If you don't know all of that stuff, it may be wiser to see a professional instrument repair tech. They have the word "professional" in their job description for a reason.
This is a very basic outline as to what is going on. There is a LOT more to it, like how long to immerse the part, what can/cannot be immersed, what specific acids can/cannot be used. What should be done "before" and "after" the acid treatment. If you don't know all of that stuff, it may be wiser to see a professional instrument repair tech. They have the word "professional" in their job description for a reason.
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
[quote="hornbuilder"]The deposit is not "carbon". The Blue/green stuff is lime scale. That can be removed with an acid solution, either in a basic soak, or in an ultrasonic cleaner. The blackness is oxidation, cussed by exposure to water. Some of that will also be removed by the acid treatment.
This is a very basic outline as to what is going on. There is a LOT more to it, like how long to immerse the part, what can/cannot be immersed, what specific acids can/cannot be used. What should be done "before" and "after" the acid treatment. If you don't know all of that stuff, it may be wiser to see a professional instrument repair tech. They have the word "professional" in their job description for a reason.[/quote]
I’ve seen reputable techs on here post about vinegar soaks. I’m asking if this would solve this issue. Based on your response, I still don’t have an answer. Looking to see what solutions I can do on my own before going to my tech.
This is a very basic outline as to what is going on. There is a LOT more to it, like how long to immerse the part, what can/cannot be immersed, what specific acids can/cannot be used. What should be done "before" and "after" the acid treatment. If you don't know all of that stuff, it may be wiser to see a professional instrument repair tech. They have the word "professional" in their job description for a reason.[/quote]
I’ve seen reputable techs on here post about vinegar soaks. I’m asking if this would solve this issue. Based on your response, I still don’t have an answer. Looking to see what solutions I can do on my own before going to my tech.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Lhbone"]Looking to see what solutions I can do on my own before going to my tech.[/quote]
Knock yourself out:
<YOUTUBE id="iFpQ_LyW7XA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFpQ_LyW7XA</YOUTUBE>
I wouldn't recommend this to someone who hadn't practiced it -- or something like it -- at least a bit. But it's your horn. You can do some damage to yourself -- not to mention your instrument -- with some of these materials if you're not careful. The pros are pros mostly because they have experience and have learned what not to do as well as what to do, and how careful to be while doing it.
As a question for those with much broader experience than mine: How long does it take for such deposits as those shown by the OP in his photo. And under what conditions? I've never seen that in any of my own instruments (including one that's 100 years old, one made in 1965 that I got from Bulgaria, and several others of various ages). Is it just a result of some sort of local water chemistry?
Knock yourself out:
<YOUTUBE id="iFpQ_LyW7XA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFpQ_LyW7XA</YOUTUBE>
I wouldn't recommend this to someone who hadn't practiced it -- or something like it -- at least a bit. But it's your horn. You can do some damage to yourself -- not to mention your instrument -- with some of these materials if you're not careful. The pros are pros mostly because they have experience and have learned what not to do as well as what to do, and how careful to be while doing it.
As a question for those with much broader experience than mine: How long does it take for such deposits as those shown by the OP in his photo. And under what conditions? I've never seen that in any of my own instruments (including one that's 100 years old, one made in 1965 that I got from Bulgaria, and several others of various ages). Is it just a result of some sort of local water chemistry?
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
The amount, and rapidness of accumulation, of deposit depends on a number of things.
The player's chemistry. The environment the instrument lives in. How well/regularly the instrument is maintained. What type of materials are used to clean/maintain the instrument. Some people can have this type of result in 6 months. Some people will never have this result. Most fall somewhere between those 2 extremes. I wish I could be more specific.
The player's chemistry. The environment the instrument lives in. How well/regularly the instrument is maintained. What type of materials are used to clean/maintain the instrument. Some people can have this type of result in 6 months. Some people will never have this result. Most fall somewhere between those 2 extremes. I wish I could be more specific.
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="Lhbone" post_id="282293" time="1753731485" user_id="7544">
Looking to see what solutions I can do on my own before going to my tech.[/quote]
As a question for those with much broader experience than mine: How long does it take for such deposits as those shown by the OP in his photo. And under what conditions? I've never seen that in any of my own instruments (including one that's 100 years old, one made in 1965 that I got from Bulgaria, and several others of various ages). Is it just a result of some sort of local water chemistry?
</QUOTE>
I’ve seen this build up on a lot of student horns. This is a five year old horn recently acquired on the used market. Not sure what habits the original owner had. At the very least, likely not oiling every practice session or even once a week. Maybe a couple times a year would be my guess. I oil my valves nearly every practice session and have certainly had no issues.
Looking to see what solutions I can do on my own before going to my tech.[/quote]
As a question for those with much broader experience than mine: How long does it take for such deposits as those shown by the OP in his photo. And under what conditions? I've never seen that in any of my own instruments (including one that's 100 years old, one made in 1965 that I got from Bulgaria, and several others of various ages). Is it just a result of some sort of local water chemistry?
</QUOTE>
I’ve seen this build up on a lot of student horns. This is a five year old horn recently acquired on the used market. Not sure what habits the original owner had. At the very least, likely not oiling every practice session or even once a week. Maybe a couple times a year would be my guess. I oil my valves nearly every practice session and have certainly had no issues.
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
UPDATE:
Did two rounds of the following:
-5% vinegar soak (15-20 minutes)
-dawn dish soap and brush
Then finished off with a quick Hope’s Brass Polish and one final soap & water rinse.
Did two rounds of the following:
-5% vinegar soak (15-20 minutes)
-dawn dish soap and brush
Then finished off with a quick Hope’s Brass Polish and one final soap & water rinse.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
I would recommend against brass polish on your rotor.
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
[quote="brassmedic"]I would recommend against brass polish on your rotor.[/quote]
Thanks for the advice. Is it due to maintaining the close tolerance between that and the casing? I only used it on the inside of the valve ports to get the last stubborn bits (not the part that touches the casing—not sure if port is the right word).
Thanks for the advice. Is it due to maintaining the close tolerance between that and the casing? I only used it on the inside of the valve ports to get the last stubborn bits (not the part that touches the casing—not sure if port is the right word).
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
Some brass polishes contain ammonia, which actually causes micro fractures in brass. Hopes polish does not contain ammonia, so at least that's a plus.
A better option is a brass wire bristle scratch brush. Used in conjunction with a soap/water solution, this will remove any remaining contaminant, without removing metal. Since the brush is made of the same material as the part, it "burnishes" the surface, instead of removing material.
A better option is a brass wire bristle scratch brush. Used in conjunction with a soap/water solution, this will remove any remaining contaminant, without removing metal. Since the brush is made of the same material as the part, it "burnishes" the surface, instead of removing material.
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
[quote="hornbuilder"]Some brass polishes contain ammonia, which actually causes micro fractures in brass. Hopes polish does not contain ammonia, so at least that's a plus.
A better option is a brass wire bristle scratch brush. Used in conjunction with a soap/water solution, this will remove any remaining contaminant, without removing metal. Since the brush is made of the same material as the part, it "burnishes" the surface, instead of removing material.[/quote]
Got it, good to know, thanks! I don't find myself in the position of cleaning valves too often anymore. I bought this on the used market on behalf of a student and had to do some investigating as to why the valve was catching before I either sent it off to a tech or inquired with the seller about the issue. It is working great now. I'll go the brass bristle brush route next time though.
A better option is a brass wire bristle scratch brush. Used in conjunction with a soap/water solution, this will remove any remaining contaminant, without removing metal. Since the brush is made of the same material as the part, it "burnishes" the surface, instead of removing material.[/quote]
Got it, good to know, thanks! I don't find myself in the position of cleaning valves too often anymore. I bought this on the used market on behalf of a student and had to do some investigating as to why the valve was catching before I either sent it off to a tech or inquired with the seller about the issue. It is working great now. I'll go the brass bristle brush route next time though.
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
Also, I filled up the inside of the valve wrap with vinegar for about 20 minutes and when I dumped it out, it looked like blue Koolaid! I'm sure that's routine for a tech, but that was a first for me and was very surprised! :amazed:
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="hornbuilder"]Hopes polish does not contain ammonia, so at least that's a plus.[/quote]
But they just use 2-amino-2-methyl-1-propanol instead... also corrosive to brass/copper.
But they just use 2-amino-2-methyl-1-propanol instead... also corrosive to brass/copper.
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="hornbuilder" post_id="282345" time="1753790095" user_id="3205">
Hopes polish does not contain ammonia, so at least that's a plus.[/quote]
But they just use 2-amino-2-methyl-1-propanol instead... also corrosive to brass/copper.
</QUOTE>
I've seen so many people use and suggest this for the inside of their outer slide. Is this stuff really that bad? I thought it was the mildest of the brass polishes. What is suggested instead?
Hopes polish does not contain ammonia, so at least that's a plus.[/quote]
But they just use 2-amino-2-methyl-1-propanol instead... also corrosive to brass/copper.
</QUOTE>
I've seen so many people use and suggest this for the inside of their outer slide. Is this stuff really that bad? I thought it was the mildest of the brass polishes. What is suggested instead?
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Lhbone"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="282372" time="1753807530" user_id="9763">
But they just use 2-amino-2-methyl-1-propanol instead... also corrosive to brass/copper.[/quote]
I've seen so many people use and suggest this for the inside of their outer slide. Is this stuff really that bad? I thought it was the mildest of the brass polishes. What is suggested instead?
</QUOTE>
A valve has a much tighter fit than a trombone slide. Wouldn't take much to mess it up. Matt already told you how techs clean the valve.
But they just use 2-amino-2-methyl-1-propanol instead... also corrosive to brass/copper.[/quote]
I've seen so many people use and suggest this for the inside of their outer slide. Is this stuff really that bad? I thought it was the mildest of the brass polishes. What is suggested instead?
</QUOTE>
A valve has a much tighter fit than a trombone slide. Wouldn't take much to mess it up. Matt already told you how techs clean the valve.
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="Lhbone" post_id="282376" time="1753807925" user_id="7544">
I've seen so many people use and suggest this for the inside of their outer slide. Is this stuff really that bad? I thought it was the mildest of the brass polishes. What is suggested instead?[/quote]
A valve has a much tighter fit than a trombone slide. Wouldn't take much to mess it up. Matt already told you how techs clean the valve.
</QUOTE>
I was asking if Hope's is still considered safe to use on the outer slide tubes. Yes?
I've seen so many people use and suggest this for the inside of their outer slide. Is this stuff really that bad? I thought it was the mildest of the brass polishes. What is suggested instead?[/quote]
A valve has a much tighter fit than a trombone slide. Wouldn't take much to mess it up. Matt already told you how techs clean the valve.
</QUOTE>
I was asking if Hope's is still considered safe to use on the outer slide tubes. Yes?
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
.
[/quote]
But they just use 2-amino-2-methyl-1-propanol instead... also corrosive to brass/copper.
[/quote]
True. Could it be considered the "best of a bad lot"?
I don't use any commercial brass polishes in the production of my horns. There are other polishing compounds that are much better suited, but again, the potential of screwing something up is pretty high, unless you're trained.
[/quote]
But they just use 2-amino-2-methyl-1-propanol instead... also corrosive to brass/copper.
[/quote]
True. Could it be considered the "best of a bad lot"?
I don't use any commercial brass polishes in the production of my horns. There are other polishing compounds that are much better suited, but again, the potential of screwing something up is pretty high, unless you're trained.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Lhbone"]I was asking if Hope's is still considered safe to use on the outer slide tubes. Yes?[/quote]
Technically, no... but here's what I'd say:
- No polish around valves
- The risk of red rot from a slide being gross and wet and scaled-up over time is far more significant than giving one of these concoctions 60 secs of residence time on an eBay special that hasn't seen a chemical bath since the second Cleveland administration. So, in that sense, meh. But any of these liquid formulas with obvious chemical action (i.e. wiping them on and off already starts to remove the highest level of oxidation discoloration even before you've added meaningful polishing action) won't "know when to stop" at the molecular level.
Better to stay on top of preventative maintenance - regular bathtimes, mild annual chem clean. Where real polishing is required - in manufacture, post repair etc - then dedicated polishing compounds are the answer, as Matthew says. But the handling is much more complex, and they sure won't rinse through after 30 secs on the shower hose.
Technically, no... but here's what I'd say:
- No polish around valves
- The risk of red rot from a slide being gross and wet and scaled-up over time is far more significant than giving one of these concoctions 60 secs of residence time on an eBay special that hasn't seen a chemical bath since the second Cleveland administration. So, in that sense, meh. But any of these liquid formulas with obvious chemical action (i.e. wiping them on and off already starts to remove the highest level of oxidation discoloration even before you've added meaningful polishing action) won't "know when to stop" at the molecular level.
Better to stay on top of preventative maintenance - regular bathtimes, mild annual chem clean. Where real polishing is required - in manufacture, post repair etc - then dedicated polishing compounds are the answer, as Matthew says. But the handling is much more complex, and they sure won't rinse through after 30 secs on the shower hose.
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="Lhbone" post_id="282381" time="1753809412" user_id="7544">
I was asking if Hope's is still considered safe to use on the outer slide tubes. Yes?[/quote]
Technically, no... but here's what I'd say:
- No polish around valves
- The risk of red rot from a slide being gross and wet and scaled-up over time is far more significant than giving one of these concoctions 60 secs of residence time on an eBay special that hasn't seen a chemical bath since the second Cleveland administration. So, in that sense, meh. But any of these liquid formulas with obvious chemical action (i.e. wiping them on and off already starts to remove the highest level of oxidation discoloration even before you've added meaningful polishing action) won't "know when to stop" at the molecular level.
Better to stay on top of preventative maintenance - regular bathtimes, mild annual chem clean. Where real polishing is required - in manufacture, post repair etc - then dedicated polishing compounds are the answer, as Matthew says. But the handling is much more complex, and they sure won't rinse through after 30 secs on the shower hose.
</QUOTE>
I’m confused by this information that conflicts everything I’ve ever heard. Edwards suggests once a year using Wrights Brass Cream. The Slide Doctor also has videos posted using brass cream. They used to suggest Wrights and now have Goddards posted on their site. These are both reputable technicians. I’m surprised this is such a controversial topic.
Matt, I know you’re rightly proud of your close tolerances with your hand slides. Would I once a year cleaning as Edwards or Slide Doctor outlines be harmful to those tolerances? Or is it that the standard has changed and that is an outdated approach to at home slide care?
I was asking if Hope's is still considered safe to use on the outer slide tubes. Yes?[/quote]
Technically, no... but here's what I'd say:
- No polish around valves
- The risk of red rot from a slide being gross and wet and scaled-up over time is far more significant than giving one of these concoctions 60 secs of residence time on an eBay special that hasn't seen a chemical bath since the second Cleveland administration. So, in that sense, meh. But any of these liquid formulas with obvious chemical action (i.e. wiping them on and off already starts to remove the highest level of oxidation discoloration even before you've added meaningful polishing action) won't "know when to stop" at the molecular level.
Better to stay on top of preventative maintenance - regular bathtimes, mild annual chem clean. Where real polishing is required - in manufacture, post repair etc - then dedicated polishing compounds are the answer, as Matthew says. But the handling is much more complex, and they sure won't rinse through after 30 secs on the shower hose.
</QUOTE>
I’m confused by this information that conflicts everything I’ve ever heard. Edwards suggests once a year using Wrights Brass Cream. The Slide Doctor also has videos posted using brass cream. They used to suggest Wrights and now have Goddards posted on their site. These are both reputable technicians. I’m surprised this is such a controversial topic.
Matt, I know you’re rightly proud of your close tolerances with your hand slides. Would I once a year cleaning as Edwards or Slide Doctor outlines be harmful to those tolerances? Or is it that the standard has changed and that is an outdated approach to at home slide care?
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Lhbone"]I’m surprised this is such a controversial topic.[/quote]
It's not. We're talking about different things... chemistry vs practicality.
With regard to outer slides, no one is worried about home polishing affecting the tolerances; your outers are already loose on the stocking by about ten thou.
The point is simply that any of these water soluble, easily flushed liquid polishes contain chemicals that are in absolute terms bad for copper alloys, be that ammonia or something more exotic as found in Hope's. There are other polishing compounds and cleaning methods that don't have that problem, but they're all more of a PITA in one way or another. Is all of this relatively insignificant compared to the corrosion risks and reduced performance of a slide with substantial scale deposits? Also yes.
It's not. We're talking about different things... chemistry vs practicality.
With regard to outer slides, no one is worried about home polishing affecting the tolerances; your outers are already loose on the stocking by about ten thou.
The point is simply that any of these water soluble, easily flushed liquid polishes contain chemicals that are in absolute terms bad for copper alloys, be that ammonia or something more exotic as found in Hope's. There are other polishing compounds and cleaning methods that don't have that problem, but they're all more of a PITA in one way or another. Is all of this relatively insignificant compared to the corrosion risks and reduced performance of a slide with substantial scale deposits? Also yes.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="Lhbone" post_id="282410" time="1753827937" user_id="7544">
I’m surprised this is such a controversial topic.[/quote]
It's not. We're talking about different things... chemistry vs practicality.
With regard to outer slides, no one is worried about home polishing affecting the tolerances; your outers are already loose on the stocking by about ten thou.
The point is simply that any of these water soluble, easily flushed liquid polishes contain chemicals that are in absolute terms bad for copper alloys, be that ammonia or something more exotic as found in Hope's. There are other polishing compounds and cleaning methods that don't have that problem, but they're all more of a PITA in one way or another. Is all of this relatively insignificant compared to the corrosion risks and reduced performance of a slide with substantial scale deposits? Also yes.
</QUOTE>
If I tried to restore a badly corroded and pitted outer slide with brass polish, it would do virtually nothing. There are MUCH better ways to deal with it. I'm a bit surprised Edwards is recommending that nonsense.
I’m surprised this is such a controversial topic.[/quote]
It's not. We're talking about different things... chemistry vs practicality.
With regard to outer slides, no one is worried about home polishing affecting the tolerances; your outers are already loose on the stocking by about ten thou.
The point is simply that any of these water soluble, easily flushed liquid polishes contain chemicals that are in absolute terms bad for copper alloys, be that ammonia or something more exotic as found in Hope's. There are other polishing compounds and cleaning methods that don't have that problem, but they're all more of a PITA in one way or another. Is all of this relatively insignificant compared to the corrosion risks and reduced performance of a slide with substantial scale deposits? Also yes.
</QUOTE>
If I tried to restore a badly corroded and pitted outer slide with brass polish, it would do virtually nothing. There are MUCH better ways to deal with it. I'm a bit surprised Edwards is recommending that nonsense.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="brassmedic"]If I tried to restore a badly corroded and pitted outer slide with brass polish, it would do virtually nothing. There are MUCH better ways to deal with it. I'm a bit surprised Edwards is recommending that nonsense.[/quote]
I imagine they're just trying to avoid the service department being overrun with time-consuming but unprofitable "it's not bad, but it's not quite as good as when I bought it" slide jobs, where some marginal gains might suffice as a deterrent.
I imagine they're just trying to avoid the service department being overrun with time-consuming but unprofitable "it's not bad, but it's not quite as good as when I bought it" slide jobs, where some marginal gains might suffice as a deterrent.
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="282492" time="1753949724" user_id="4102">
If I tried to restore a badly corroded and pitted outer slide with brass polish, it would do virtually nothing. There are MUCH better ways to deal with it. I'm a bit surprised Edwards is recommending that nonsense.[/quote]
I imagine they're just trying to avoid the service department being overrun with time-consuming but unprofitable "it's not bad, but it's not quite as good as when I bought it" slide jobs, where some marginal gains might suffice as a deterrent.
</QUOTE>
Enter the controversy <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
If I tried to restore a badly corroded and pitted outer slide with brass polish, it would do virtually nothing. There are MUCH better ways to deal with it. I'm a bit surprised Edwards is recommending that nonsense.[/quote]
I imagine they're just trying to avoid the service department being overrun with time-consuming but unprofitable "it's not bad, but it's not quite as good as when I bought it" slide jobs, where some marginal gains might suffice as a deterrent.
</QUOTE>
Enter the controversy <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
- ZacharyThornton
- Posts: 615
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I worked at Getzen/ Edwards… I do not remember that being a recommendation we said to customers. I never cleaned anything with Wrights. I will ask around if that is the recommendation.
- Lhbone
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sep 01, 2019
[quote="ZacharyThornton"]I worked at Getzen/ Edwards… I do not remember that being a recommendation we said to customers. I never cleaned anything with Wrights. I will ask around if that is the recommendation.[/quote]
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.edwards-instruments.com/tro ... intenance/">https://www.edwards-instruments.com/trombone-maintenance/trombone-slide-care-maintenance/</LINK_TEXT>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.edwards-instruments.com/tro ... intenance/">https://www.edwards-instruments.com/trombone-maintenance/trombone-slide-care-maintenance/</LINK_TEXT>
- ZacharyThornton
- Posts: 615
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Yep you’re right. Not what I have done in the shops I’ve worked for but that’s what they recommend.