What makes it a doubling bass bone?
- oshkosher
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Jul 20, 2025
I've been playing tenor for a long time, and I'd like to get a bass trombone. I talked with Edwards about coming in to try out some horns, and since I'll probably continue to primarily play tenor, they said they'd set me up with a doubling horn. How would a doubling bass trombone differ from a regular bass trombone?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Probably a single bore, rotors, maybe a 1 leadpipe. I wouldn't read too much into it.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="oshkosher"]I've been playing tenor for a long time, and I'd like to get a bass trombone. I talked with Edwards about coming in to try out some horns, and since I'll probably continue to primarily play tenor, they said they'd set me up with a doubling horn. How would a doubling bass trombone differ from a regular bass trombone?[/quote]
There's the double rotor thing, but I think what they were talking about was doubling tenor and bass. I would guess that they would probably set you up with something lighter and smaller in some ways. Probably rotors instead of axials, lighter bell, maybe not the widest slide, possibly even a 547/562 slide with a smaller leadpipe. Something setup for a brighter commercial sound instead of a big woofy symphonic horn. You'd be better off to ask them directly, but I think this is generally what they would offer you.
There's the double rotor thing, but I think what they were talking about was doubling tenor and bass. I would guess that they would probably set you up with something lighter and smaller in some ways. Probably rotors instead of axials, lighter bell, maybe not the widest slide, possibly even a 547/562 slide with a smaller leadpipe. Something setup for a brighter commercial sound instead of a big woofy symphonic horn. You'd be better off to ask them directly, but I think this is generally what they would offer you.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]Probably a single bore, rotors, maybe a 1 leadpipe. I wouldn't read too much into it.[/quote]
9½" bell too, most likely.
9½" bell too, most likely.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I have no idea what a "doubling" horn is. But I dislike even the characterization. Like it's not for a "real" bass trombone player, or it means that you're not a "real" bass trombone player. Inferior. Cheap. Imitation. Limited.
I play tenor trombone and bass trombone. I don't think of myself as a "doubler." The moment I do, I've given myself an excuse not to sound good, and I've lowered expectations in others. It's a defeatist mindset IMHO. Don't be a doubler. A "double" is simply a term used to pay you extra money for playing more than one instrument on a recording gig. And I certainly don't want an inferior horn just because I may be less experienced on bass than I am on tenor.
It's a mindset thing.
/soapbox
I play tenor trombone and bass trombone. I don't think of myself as a "doubler." The moment I do, I've given myself an excuse not to sound good, and I've lowered expectations in others. It's a defeatist mindset IMHO. Don't be a doubler. A "double" is simply a term used to pay you extra money for playing more than one instrument on a recording gig. And I certainly don't want an inferior horn just because I may be less experienced on bass than I am on tenor.
It's a mindset thing.
/soapbox
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="tbdana"]I have no idea what a "doubling" horn is. But I dislike even the characterization. Like it's not for a "real" bass trombone player, or it means that you're not a "real" bass trombone player. Inferior. Cheap. Imitation. Limited.
I play tenor trombone and bass trombone. I don't think of myself as a "doubler." The moment I do, I've given myself an excuse not to sound good, and I've lowered expectations in others. It's a defeatist mindset IMHO. Don't be a doubler. A "double" is simply a term used to pay you extra money for playing more than one instrument on a recording gig. And I certainly don't want an inferior horn just because I may be less experienced on bass than I am on tenor.
It's a mindset thing.
/soapbox[/quote]
100% agree. You either play bass or you don’t.
I play tenor trombone and bass trombone. I don't think of myself as a "doubler." The moment I do, I've given myself an excuse not to sound good, and I've lowered expectations in others. It's a defeatist mindset IMHO. Don't be a doubler. A "double" is simply a term used to pay you extra money for playing more than one instrument on a recording gig. And I certainly don't want an inferior horn just because I may be less experienced on bass than I am on tenor.
It's a mindset thing.
/soapbox[/quote]
100% agree. You either play bass or you don’t.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I agree with Aidan on this one... when I'm doing a lot of doubling, my preferences change. When I'm focusing exclusively on something, my preferences also change. I had a year where I subbed for a bass trombone player who had double knee replacement a TON. My preferences for what I liked in a bass (and tenors for that matter) changed when I was playing that much bass. When I'm doubling, I make different choices. Generally, I find that when I'm doubling or focusing on small tenors, things like Aidan said, like a 1 leadpipe are better for me. IMO I don't think it's defeatist to have preferences for some equipment over another based on current context.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
It's not that serious.
"Doubling horn" generally just means a middle-of-the-road horn that's easy to play. Doesn't have a lot of quirks to learn, works in all contexts. It absolutely doesn't mean a "real" bass trombonist wouldn't play one, or that it's somehow inferior.
[quote="tbdana"]I don't think of myself as a "doubler." The moment I do, I've given myself an excuse not to sound good, and I've lowered expectations in others. It's a defeatist mindset IMHO. Don't be a doubler.[/quote]
You and I have very different ideas of what the word "doubling" means.
"Doubling horn" generally just means a middle-of-the-road horn that's easy to play. Doesn't have a lot of quirks to learn, works in all contexts. It absolutely doesn't mean a "real" bass trombonist wouldn't play one, or that it's somehow inferior.
[quote="tbdana"]I don't think of myself as a "doubler." The moment I do, I've given myself an excuse not to sound good, and I've lowered expectations in others. It's a defeatist mindset IMHO. Don't be a doubler.[/quote]
You and I have very different ideas of what the word "doubling" means.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
I'm pretty sure Edwards knows what they are talking about. Just saying.
Also do does James Markey, and he calls it doubling. Some may remember that he was originally associate principal of the NY Phil before moving to Bass trombone, and was still playing tenor while auditioning on bass.
<YOUTUBE id="xlCvtMQu2jA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlCvtMQu2jA</YOUTUBE>
Also do does James Markey, and he calls it doubling. Some may remember that he was originally associate principal of the NY Phil before moving to Bass trombone, and was still playing tenor while auditioning on bass.
<YOUTUBE id="xlCvtMQu2jA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlCvtMQu2jA</YOUTUBE>
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
Don't get a "doubling" horn. Just get a good bass trombone.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
It's probably just a wording question.
Totally in line with all the others saying "just get a bass trombone". However it CAN (not must!) be helpful if it's somewhat similar to your tenor preferences. E.g. same type of valve(s), same slide and bell material.
And while a dual bore slide, very open valves and leadpipe etc. can be tempting to a tenor trombonist - as it initially may feel easier in the very low register - I would generally recommend to go for a somewhat moderate setup. Remember bass trombone is 95% NOT playing pedal notes.
I am sure Edwards would get you sorted.
Totally in line with all the others saying "just get a bass trombone". However it CAN (not must!) be helpful if it's somewhat similar to your tenor preferences. E.g. same type of valve(s), same slide and bell material.
And while a dual bore slide, very open valves and leadpipe etc. can be tempting to a tenor trombonist - as it initially may feel easier in the very low register - I would generally recommend to go for a somewhat moderate setup. Remember bass trombone is 95% NOT playing pedal notes.
I am sure Edwards would get you sorted.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
It speaks to the arrogance / ignorance of many tenor players that they think doubling on bass is easy and / or that they're doing it well. There's plenty of overlap between tenor and bass (and that goes both ways), but when the going gets rough, the vast majority of doublers come up short. The ones who don't, have respect for the differences and difficulties.
A "doubling" bass won't be much different from a "real" bass, for that reason. If anything, it might be a bit smaller so that the air requirement isn't quite as extreme as a full-time bass player might accept. But you'll still have to do the work.
A "doubling" bass won't be much different from a "real" bass, for that reason. If anything, it might be a bit smaller so that the air requirement isn't quite as extreme as a full-time bass player might accept. But you'll still have to do the work.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
As someone who struggles with tenor/bass doubling, and recognizes my own limitations on bass that I don't have on tenor, there are some basses that are easier to play for people oriented toward tenor. Some people can play trumpet, french horn, tuba, euph, tbone and really don't care much about switching. But not everyone is that way. I had trouble switching from 5g to 6.5al. Anything that decreases the difference between bass and tenor is a doubling instrument for people who struggle with that kind of change. I'm ok on bass up to a certain point. I can pass as a bass player as long as there's not some long fast passage down in the double triggers, or there's a lot of trigger switching between all combos. You want a nice low D? I sound like a pro. You want 1/16th notes more than 1 ledger line down, go hire a real bass bone player.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="TomInME"]It speaks to the arrogance / ignorance of many tenor players that they think doubling on bass is easy and / or that they're doing it well. There's plenty of overlap between tenor and bass (and that goes both ways), but when the going gets rough, the vast majority of doublers come up short. The ones who don't, have respect for the differences and difficulties.
A "doubling" bass won't be much different from a "real" bass, for that reason. If anything, it might be a bit smaller so that the air requirement isn't quite as extreme as a full-time bass player might accept. But you'll still have to do the work.[/quote] I mean, from Edwards, it will always be a "real" professional level bass trombone, but it's probably not going to be the same bass they recommend for someone playing in a professional symphony orchestra, or auditioning for one.
A "doubling" bass won't be much different from a "real" bass, for that reason. If anything, it might be a bit smaller so that the air requirement isn't quite as extreme as a full-time bass player might accept. But you'll still have to do the work.[/quote] I mean, from Edwards, it will always be a "real" professional level bass trombone, but it's probably not going to be the same bass they recommend for someone playing in a professional symphony orchestra, or auditioning for one.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I'm honestly not sure the "real" dual bore, humongo bass trombone is the way to go, to begin with. Even if you play bass full time.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
[quote="TomInME"]It speaks to the arrogance / ignorance of many tenor players that they think doubling on bass is easy and / or that they're doing it well. There's plenty of overlap between tenor and bass (and that goes both ways), but when the going gets rough, the vast majority of doublers come up short. The ones who don't, have respect for the differences and difficulties.
A "doubling" bass won't be much different from a "real" bass, for that reason. If anything, it might be a bit smaller so that the air requirement isn't quite as extreme as a full-time bass player might accept. But you'll still have to do the work.[/quote]
While the first part of this answer sidetracks a bit from the initial question, I can kind of follow the sentiment.
I know multiple people who own a bass trombone and in some circles successfully impress others with that big bell and dual valve thing. But when getting even just into a Brahms symphony, it's getting tricky for them...
A "doubling" bass won't be much different from a "real" bass, for that reason. If anything, it might be a bit smaller so that the air requirement isn't quite as extreme as a full-time bass player might accept. But you'll still have to do the work.[/quote]
While the first part of this answer sidetracks a bit from the initial question, I can kind of follow the sentiment.
I know multiple people who own a bass trombone and in some circles successfully impress others with that big bell and dual valve thing. But when getting even just into a Brahms symphony, it's getting tricky for them...
- ZacharyThornton
- Posts: 615
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Just trust them to set you up with a horn that will work great. They will go into it with an open mind; Jesse and Christan are experts.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
I don’t think you could go wrong with an edwards, I think they are some brand you would want to avoid as a doubler. All the quirky vintage horns wouldn’t serve you well, edwards would be the right place to look for a non-quirky bass trombone.
I wouldn’t discredit a dual bore slide either, it works very well with the B502 design
I wouldn’t discredit a dual bore slide either, it works very well with the B502 design
- DCIsky
- Posts: 338
- Joined: May 09, 2020
I have a Shires bass and tenor, and I go between them pretty regularly. At the moment, the setups are pretty similar: single bore slide with #2 pipe, medium-ish mouthpiece in the grand scheme of things, axial valves, tighter tuning slide, yellow bell. I would honestly consider this bass to be more of a doubler horn.
This makes a lot of the intonation and blow tendencies similar enough to me that I just apply a different sound concept. Most people don’t realize I’m a doubler until I tell them, and even fewer notice enough about my playing as a doubler to ask me about my differences in equipment for tenor vs bass. Which to me, feels like the end goal as a professional blower into metal tubes.
This makes a lot of the intonation and blow tendencies similar enough to me that I just apply a different sound concept. Most people don’t realize I’m a doubler until I tell them, and even fewer notice enough about my playing as a doubler to ask me about my differences in equipment for tenor vs bass. Which to me, feels like the end goal as a professional blower into metal tubes.
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Elow"]I don’t think you could go wrong with an edwards, I think they are some brand you would want to avoid as a doubler. All the quirky vintage horns wouldn’t serve you well, edwards would be the right place to look for a non-quirky bass trombone.
I wouldn’t discredit a dual bore slide either, it works very well with the B502 design[/quote]
All the quirky vintage horns......wow !! Bit of a statement there.
I wouldn’t discredit a dual bore slide either, it works very well with the B502 design[/quote]
All the quirky vintage horns......wow !! Bit of a statement there.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Elow"]I don’t think you could go wrong with an edwards, I think they are some brand you would want to avoid as a doubler. All the quirky vintage horns wouldn’t serve you well, edwards would be the right place to look for a non-quirky bass trombone.
I wouldn’t discredit a dual bore slide either, it works very well with the B502 design[/quote]
Some of this advice is laughable.
I wouldn’t discredit a dual bore slide either, it works very well with the B502 design[/quote]
Some of this advice is laughable.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I don't think Elow meant that all vintage horns are quirky... but there are some very quirky vintage horns... bear in mind that 1980 was 45 years ago. At this point, I would consider that vintage. If I were recommending something blind, I would absolutely recommend a new Edwards over a 1980s Bach. Maybe not EVERY 1980s Bach, but certainly many of them.
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
A doubling horn in this context might be one that costs significantly less than a new Edwards, and leaves the rest of the budget for (additional) lessons/workshops etc.
Since the OP stated they expect to primarily play tenor, perhaps the gear is only part of the story and they may get better results by buying a used middle-of-the-road horn and finding an excellent bass teacher.
I‘m very far from being a good bass player, but having lessons every couple of weeks for the past few months has improved my playing more than any new custom horn would.
Since the OP stated they expect to primarily play tenor, perhaps the gear is only part of the story and they may get better results by buying a used middle-of-the-road horn and finding an excellent bass teacher.
I‘m very far from being a good bass player, but having lessons every couple of weeks for the past few months has improved my playing more than any new custom horn would.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
I will stand by what I said… I’ve played THE vintage models. I’ve got an Elkhart 62H and a MV 50 right now, and they fall short to my B502.
Same thing with the tenor T396AR, completely outplayed my MV42 in every way. I would say it’s a more modern design equipped to tackle the demands of new rep.
Also, I have grown up with a completely different sound concept and playing approach than the generation who grew up playing old Bachs, Conns, Holtons, Olds and such. Of course I going to find the sound I want on the same equipment as my influences.
Same thing with the tenor T396AR, completely outplayed my MV42 in every way. I would say it’s a more modern design equipped to tackle the demands of new rep.
Also, I have grown up with a completely different sound concept and playing approach than the generation who grew up playing old Bachs, Conns, Holtons, Olds and such. Of course I going to find the sound I want on the same equipment as my influences.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Elow"].... I would say it’s a more modern design equipped to tackle the demands of new rep.[/quote]
Ok, that's bs. Maybe you like Edwards over other stuff, but making "new rep" part of it is ridiculous. "New rep" is mostly the province of small bore. Even if you're talking "new classical" rep, that's tiny against the previous 600 years of music.
You can say you like Edwards, but invoking "new rep" is silly.
Ok, that's bs. Maybe you like Edwards over other stuff, but making "new rep" part of it is ridiculous. "New rep" is mostly the province of small bore. Even if you're talking "new classical" rep, that's tiny against the previous 600 years of music.
You can say you like Edwards, but invoking "new rep" is silly.
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="282701" time="1754237957">.... I would say it’s a more modern design equipped to tackle the demands of new rep.[/quote]
Ok, that's bs. Maybe you like Edwards over other stuff, but making "new rep" part of it is ridiculous. "New rep" is mostly the province of small bore. Even if you're talking "new classical" rep, that's tiny against the previous 600 years of music.
You can say you like Edwards, but invoking "new rep" is silly.
</QUOTE>
As you probably know I absolutely love vintage trombones. One of the best bass trombones I've ever played was a 70h. But try playing championship section brass band test pieces on a 70h and you will soon want a modern bass trombone in your hands.
So I think Elow has a - small - point here. There's more than only orchestra out there.
Ok, that's bs. Maybe you like Edwards over other stuff, but making "new rep" part of it is ridiculous. "New rep" is mostly the province of small bore. Even if you're talking "new classical" rep, that's tiny against the previous 600 years of music.
You can say you like Edwards, but invoking "new rep" is silly.
</QUOTE>
As you probably know I absolutely love vintage trombones. One of the best bass trombones I've ever played was a 70h. But try playing championship section brass band test pieces on a 70h and you will soon want a modern bass trombone in your hands.
So I think Elow has a - small - point here. There's more than only orchestra out there.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
Modern bass trombones that have the same bore size, same basic leadpipe design, same diameter bell, same number of valves, and same diameter valve section tubing as vintage bass trombones, have magic properties that allow you to play modern music on them. :lol:
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
You can't reduce non-Edwards horns to 70h quirks. Modern music is not just brass band competition, and "everything else" is not just orchestral music. Lots of music careers come and go without touching either one of those. You're describing a specific corner, not a generality. I've played a lot of modern music on my Elkhart 88h, and a lot of old music on my Kanstul 1662i.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
What you probably can say is that "modern" horns like the current Edwards or Shires models may be a bit easier to play. But the Elkhart 60h/62h that I own is so very much playable that I would absolutely not hesitate to bring it to any sight reading gig that may come up. It's not quirky at all. yes, it may require just a little bit more efforts to make it work, but that's totally worth it.
A 70h is obviously something else with the single valve. yes, I would not bring it to a brass band, brass/trombone ensemble or big band gig without knowing the music in advance.
A 70h is obviously something else with the single valve. yes, I would not bring it to a brass band, brass/trombone ensemble or big band gig without knowing the music in advance.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
There is a certain way that the bass trombone sound concept is going and there are new demands being asked. To be specific, I don’t think you can achieve the same sound in the upper range. The ability to color the high range with such brilliance is something I have only found on my edwards. The soft extremities is another part where my edwards sticks out. It’s the exact same sound that you can take from FF to just barely audible. In the chamber music and solo rep I play, this control can really elevate a performance.
I hate to derail the thread… but yeah you can play the same notes. It won’t sound the same, and right now I want to market my sound in the same way as the successful bass trombone players in this time.
I hate to derail the thread… but yeah you can play the same notes. It won’t sound the same, and right now I want to market my sound in the same way as the successful bass trombone players in this time.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]Modern bass trombones that have the same bore size, same basic leadpipe design, same diameter bell, same number of valves, and same diameter valve section tubing as vintage bass trombones, have magic properties that allow you to play modern music on them. :lol:[/quote]
Psst. Brad - it's the secret proprietary modern brass alloy that Edwards fabricates their bells from. :shuffle:
Psst. Brad - it's the secret proprietary modern brass alloy that Edwards fabricates their bells from. :shuffle:
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Well, there is definitely something about the in-vogue combinations that most of the boutique makers are making that does set them apart in my experience, which is why I tend to play 'modern' horns myself, despite having owned good playing vintage ones in the past. For example: A medium-weight, two-piece, soldered bell bead bell with a middle-of-the-road leadpipe and Thayer valves tends to be very easy to play (both for bass and tenor). That combination couldn't have even existed any earlier than the mid-80s, and most horns of that era were not that. There isn't anything metalurgically impossible that restricted Bach, Conn, or others from making something like that in the 80s or earlier but... well, they didn't.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Elow"]There is a certain way that the bass trombone sound concept is going and there are new demands being asked. To be specific, I don’t think you can achieve the same sound in the upper range. The ability to color the high range with such brilliance is something I have only found on my edwards. The soft extremities is another part where my edwards sticks out. It’s the exact same sound that you can take from FF to just barely audible. In the chamber music and solo rep I play, this control can really elevate a performance.
I hate to derail the thread… but yeah you can play the same notes. It won’t sound the same, and right now I want to market my sound in the same way as the successful bass trombone players in this time.[/quote]
But yet you have derailed the thread because it started out as what makes a doubling bass trombone and you turned it into “All about me(you).
I hate to derail the thread… but yeah you can play the same notes. It won’t sound the same, and right now I want to market my sound in the same way as the successful bass trombone players in this time.[/quote]
But yet you have derailed the thread because it started out as what makes a doubling bass trombone and you turned it into “All about me(you).
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
Okay scratch everything I’ve said. The best doubler bass trombone is the one that you own, they all make the same notes. :pant:
Okay but seriously, this was about design choice for a doubler. My opinion is that the modern designed basses have characteristics that make it more comfortable for a doubler.
Okay but seriously, this was about design choice for a doubler. My opinion is that the modern designed basses have characteristics that make it more comfortable for a doubler.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
I bought an Edwards 502-I with yellow bell to use as a bass doubler. I eventually switched from the single bore slide to the dual bore. As primarily a tenor trombonist I couldn’t be happier with this horn.
FWIW I agree with pretty much everything Elow said.
FWIW I agree with pretty much everything Elow said.
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Okay Elow, I suspect that I was playing on Edwards bass trombones before you were born, so I know what they are like. I moved on to other horns a long time ago, not because the Edwards horns weren't great...they were, and recent ones play even better. It's a taste thing. BUT, this is not what the thread is about....it's about DOUBLING on bass trombone. You recommend an Edwards with a duo bore slide. Fine answer to some questions, but it's a thoughtless answer to this one.
I'll need to give an example. Our principal trombone was asked to play on a film recording, and play tenor and bass. He didn't have a bass, and asked me for help. I loaned him a Conn 71H, as it was very easy blowing, recorded well and was like a big version of his 88H. A second valve was not needed. It did the job for him. A solution for high-level work at short notice. Someone else may have needed a different solution. A duo bore big belled solution. The doubling instrument needs to fit the player and the situation....that's the real answer to the question. What that means for an individual, they have to find out.
As for us oldies not making a 'modern' sound, you might well be right. I don't like a LOT of what I hear these days. I make a sound that fits the section, and the orchestra. That's not old, or new. It's just doing my job.
I'll need to give an example. Our principal trombone was asked to play on a film recording, and play tenor and bass. He didn't have a bass, and asked me for help. I loaned him a Conn 71H, as it was very easy blowing, recorded well and was like a big version of his 88H. A second valve was not needed. It did the job for him. A solution for high-level work at short notice. Someone else may have needed a different solution. A duo bore big belled solution. The doubling instrument needs to fit the player and the situation....that's the real answer to the question. What that means for an individual, they have to find out.
As for us oldies not making a 'modern' sound, you might well be right. I don't like a LOT of what I hear these days. I make a sound that fits the section, and the orchestra. That's not old, or new. It's just doing my job.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Elow"]
Okay but seriously, this was about design choice for a doubler. My opinion is that the modern designed basses have characteristics that make it more comfortable for a doubler.[/quote]
:clever:
Okay but seriously, this was about design choice for a doubler. My opinion is that the modern designed basses have characteristics that make it more comfortable for a doubler.[/quote]
:clever:
- slidefunk
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Oct 19, 2020
A doublers horn is one that you can afford that gets the job done.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="slidefunk"]A doublers horn is one that you can afford that gets the job done.[/quote]
Yes. That’s the point people should be making. Buy something that works for you. Modern, old, quirky, whatever.
Yes. That’s the point people should be making. Buy something that works for you. Modern, old, quirky, whatever.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="slidefunk" post_id="282799" time="1754365031" user_id="10403">
A doublers horn is one that you can afford that gets the job done.[/quote]
Yes. That’s the point people should be making. Buy something that works for you. Modern, old, quirky, whatever.
</QUOTE>
:good:
A doublers horn is one that you can afford that gets the job done.[/quote]
Yes. That’s the point people should be making. Buy something that works for you. Modern, old, quirky, whatever.
</QUOTE>
:good:
- ddsbstrb
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Apr 29, 2019
Back in the day (1970's) I had always heard the early Olds inline Bb-F-G bass trombones, like Ernie Tack and others played was a nice horn for a tenor player to use for bass trombone playing gigs. It has a 9" bell with more for commercial usage in those days. My go to horn, to get back into playing after layoffs like cataract surgery or a year off during COVID, was my Elkhart 62H. It was definitely lighter to hold up than my Greenhoe-Bach 50B. I was in my late 70's and not as physically strong. I had always used a Greenhoe "thumb hook" to help hold the Greenhoe-Bach and did use a NeoTec strap on the Conn. Arthritis was getting into my hands and fingers, in later life.
Lots of great points being made by all!
Lots of great points being made by all!
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="ddsbstrb"]Back in the day (1970's) I had always heard the early Olds inline Bb-F-G bass trombones, like Ernie Tack and others played was a nice horn for a tenor player to use for bass trombone playing gigs. It has a 9" bell with more for commercial usage in those days. My go to horn, to get back into playing after layoffs like cataract surgery or a year off during COVID, was my Elkhart 62H. It was definitely lighter to hold up than my Greenhoe-Bach 50B. I was in my late 70's and not as physically strong. I had always used a Greenhoe "thumb hook" to help hold the Greenhoe-Bach and did use a NeoTec strap on the Conn. Arthritis was getting into my hands and fingers, in later life.
Lots of great points being made by all![/quote]
Nice to see you posting Denny...you were a stalwart of the old forum. Are you well ?
Lots of great points being made by all![/quote]
Nice to see you posting Denny...you were a stalwart of the old forum. Are you well ?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="SwissTbone"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="282736" time="1754266686" user_id="104">
Ok, that's bs. Maybe you like Edwards over other stuff, but making "new rep" part of it is ridiculous. "New rep" is mostly the province of small bore. Even if you're talking "new classical" rep, that's tiny against the previous 600 years of music.
You can say you like Edwards, but invoking "new rep" is silly.[/quote]
As you probably know I absolutely love vintage trombones. One of the best bass trombones I've ever played was a 70h. But try playing championship section brass band test pieces on a 70h and you will soon want a modern bass trombone in your hands.
So I think Elow has a - small - point here. There's more than only orchestra out there.
</QUOTE>
Yeah I don't buy this stuff about vintage horns being harder to play all of the time. The Holton I'm using right now is superior to the huge dual bore air hog modern basses I've tried. I do like the single bore Edwards slide, but my experience still wasn't as solid on that as the Holton (probably axials vs rotors).
It's actually nice to have a slot. It's nice to let the horn do the work. I think a lot of modern bass design is informed by monster players who can *force* the horn to do whatever they want. They might not even really realize how much they are doing that. That might be great for them -- they certainly sound outstanding. But I'm looking for the horn to help me get a solid slot so I can adjust pitch with the hand slide and not work hard. Dual bores with 10" bells don't do that for me.
I really want to try a duo gravis, I bet I would really like that as a doubler.
Ok, that's bs. Maybe you like Edwards over other stuff, but making "new rep" part of it is ridiculous. "New rep" is mostly the province of small bore. Even if you're talking "new classical" rep, that's tiny against the previous 600 years of music.
You can say you like Edwards, but invoking "new rep" is silly.[/quote]
As you probably know I absolutely love vintage trombones. One of the best bass trombones I've ever played was a 70h. But try playing championship section brass band test pieces on a 70h and you will soon want a modern bass trombone in your hands.
So I think Elow has a - small - point here. There's more than only orchestra out there.
</QUOTE>
Yeah I don't buy this stuff about vintage horns being harder to play all of the time. The Holton I'm using right now is superior to the huge dual bore air hog modern basses I've tried. I do like the single bore Edwards slide, but my experience still wasn't as solid on that as the Holton (probably axials vs rotors).
It's actually nice to have a slot. It's nice to let the horn do the work. I think a lot of modern bass design is informed by monster players who can *force* the horn to do whatever they want. They might not even really realize how much they are doing that. That might be great for them -- they certainly sound outstanding. But I'm looking for the horn to help me get a solid slot so I can adjust pitch with the hand slide and not work hard. Dual bores with 10" bells don't do that for me.
I really want to try a duo gravis, I bet I would really like that as a doubler.
- SwissTbone
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="SwissTbone" post_id="282748" time="1754289761" user_id="62">
As you probably know I absolutely love vintage trombones. One of the best bass trombones I've ever played was a 70h. But try playing championship section brass band test pieces on a 70h and you will soon want a modern bass trombone in your hands.
So I think Elow has a - small - point here. There's more than only orchestra out there.[/quote]
Yeah I don't buy this stuff about vintage horns being harder to play all of the time. The Holton I'm using right now is superior to the huge dual bore air hog modern basses I've tried. I do like the single bore Edwards slide, but my experience still wasn't as solid on that as the Holton (probably axials vs rotors).
It's actually nice to have a slot. It's nice to let the horn do the work. I think a lot of modern bass design is informed by monster players who can *force* the horn to do whatever they want. They might not even really realize how much they are doing that. That might be great for them -- they certainly sound outstanding. But I'm looking for the horn to help me get a solid slot so I can adjust pitch with the hand slide and not work hard. Dual bores with 10" bells don't do that for me.
I really want to try a duo gravis, I bet I would really like that as a doubler.
</QUOTE>
Hmmmm I wasn't aware all modern basses are 10 inch dual bore monsters. That's definitely not what I understand when I talk about a modern bass.
I also could see myself using a good old Holton or a fine vintage Bach 50b in a setting I discussed above. But you have to find one without quirks. Modern horns tend to play more even, more predictable. Maybe that's a quality too when you're playing all that very loud and technically challenging stuff.
As you probably know I absolutely love vintage trombones. One of the best bass trombones I've ever played was a 70h. But try playing championship section brass band test pieces on a 70h and you will soon want a modern bass trombone in your hands.
So I think Elow has a - small - point here. There's more than only orchestra out there.[/quote]
Yeah I don't buy this stuff about vintage horns being harder to play all of the time. The Holton I'm using right now is superior to the huge dual bore air hog modern basses I've tried. I do like the single bore Edwards slide, but my experience still wasn't as solid on that as the Holton (probably axials vs rotors).
It's actually nice to have a slot. It's nice to let the horn do the work. I think a lot of modern bass design is informed by monster players who can *force* the horn to do whatever they want. They might not even really realize how much they are doing that. That might be great for them -- they certainly sound outstanding. But I'm looking for the horn to help me get a solid slot so I can adjust pitch with the hand slide and not work hard. Dual bores with 10" bells don't do that for me.
I really want to try a duo gravis, I bet I would really like that as a doubler.
</QUOTE>
Hmmmm I wasn't aware all modern basses are 10 inch dual bore monsters. That's definitely not what I understand when I talk about a modern bass.
I also could see myself using a good old Holton or a fine vintage Bach 50b in a setting I discussed above. But you have to find one without quirks. Modern horns tend to play more even, more predictable. Maybe that's a quality too when you're playing all that very loud and technically challenging stuff.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="harrisonreed"]I really want to try a duo gravis, I bet I would really like that as a doubler.[/quote] As long as the linkage has been split, it should be fine. I think one of the biggest concerns that I would have with the older horns is the ergonomics of the trigger, and paddle if there is one. All the DGs I have tried previously had the original side by side triggers, and they were somewhat hard to move and clanky compared to my Yamaha basses. Sound wise however I had no complaints, though other people in the area might have disliked the paint peeling off their walls. It was really designed to be a fantastic commercial horn. Alan Raph played one for decades, though his had a Silversonic bell, which probably took a bit of the edge off.
My experience with other vintage horns has been mixed, and almost always about the ergonomics with the left hand, and not the sound or blow. Dependent or Independent doesn't really matter that much to me, however I definitely have encountered more new music that really is a lot easier with an independent setup. Some composers seem to think a trombone is the same thing as a cimbasso.
My experience with other vintage horns has been mixed, and almost always about the ergonomics with the left hand, and not the sound or blow. Dependent or Independent doesn't really matter that much to me, however I definitely have encountered more new music that really is a lot easier with an independent setup. Some composers seem to think a trombone is the same thing as a cimbasso.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]
I really want to try a duo gravis, I bet I would really like that as a doubler.[/quote]
Yeah, DG, that's a doubler bass.
I've been playing a Kanstul for 11 years, which I would guess qualifies as a "new" bass bone. It was "inspired" by the Conn 62h, but doesn't play like it at all. I don't find it particularly friendly as a doubler. You have to push it hard in a lot of cases, but it does get a good sound. The high range is highly mouthpiece dependent.
The best double horns that I've played have been the Duo Gravis, one particular Bach 50 and a custom Conn 7xh. I elected to keep the Kanstul over those just because the people I play with most like that velvet Kanstul sound. The Kanstul has changed my tenor chops, and not for the better. I'd guess that a good doubler horn wouldn't do that.
Edwards makes a wide range of stuff, and I have no doubt that it's possible to set up an Eddy that's fairly light and responsive. I've liked the playability of the Edwards I've played, and I do get the sense that the market is swinging back in the Edwards direction and away from Shires/Eastman, and probably for good reason.
The thing I don't like about the Edwards is all of the bracing. Not that it's over braced, just that each brace is bigger (read heavier "edge bracing") than it needs to be. Plus the extra weight of the harmonic bridge on some of them. To extend their automotive metaphor, they're taking an F-350 and trying to disguise it as a Ranger. But it still has that F-350 weight and mpg and diesel stink.
Kanstul and Rath minimize bracing, and seek to emulate what's great about legacy instruments, which was part of the reason why I chose a Kanstul when I bought a new bass. The Kanstul is still heavier than the older basses I've owned.
But after reading the first couple of paragraphs on Edwards 502-i website, it's possible Elow has just fallen into the marketing zone, which I suspect is the heart of the situation here. The people who steer the development of most pro level horns are far away from my actual day-to-day skills and needs. I don't need that kind of heavy work truck. A small truck I can use as a daily driver would be my ideal bass bone. The closest to being a tenor as possible, while still with a good sound into the pedals and double valve range. Something I can blow air into efficiently.
I really want to try a duo gravis, I bet I would really like that as a doubler.[/quote]
Yeah, DG, that's a doubler bass.
I've been playing a Kanstul for 11 years, which I would guess qualifies as a "new" bass bone. It was "inspired" by the Conn 62h, but doesn't play like it at all. I don't find it particularly friendly as a doubler. You have to push it hard in a lot of cases, but it does get a good sound. The high range is highly mouthpiece dependent.
The best double horns that I've played have been the Duo Gravis, one particular Bach 50 and a custom Conn 7xh. I elected to keep the Kanstul over those just because the people I play with most like that velvet Kanstul sound. The Kanstul has changed my tenor chops, and not for the better. I'd guess that a good doubler horn wouldn't do that.
Edwards makes a wide range of stuff, and I have no doubt that it's possible to set up an Eddy that's fairly light and responsive. I've liked the playability of the Edwards I've played, and I do get the sense that the market is swinging back in the Edwards direction and away from Shires/Eastman, and probably for good reason.
The thing I don't like about the Edwards is all of the bracing. Not that it's over braced, just that each brace is bigger (read heavier "edge bracing") than it needs to be. Plus the extra weight of the harmonic bridge on some of them. To extend their automotive metaphor, they're taking an F-350 and trying to disguise it as a Ranger. But it still has that F-350 weight and mpg and diesel stink.
Kanstul and Rath minimize bracing, and seek to emulate what's great about legacy instruments, which was part of the reason why I chose a Kanstul when I bought a new bass. The Kanstul is still heavier than the older basses I've owned.
But after reading the first couple of paragraphs on Edwards 502-i website, it's possible Elow has just fallen into the marketing zone, which I suspect is the heart of the situation here. The people who steer the development of most pro level horns are far away from my actual day-to-day skills and needs. I don't need that kind of heavy work truck. A small truck I can use as a daily driver would be my ideal bass bone. The closest to being a tenor as possible, while still with a good sound into the pedals and double valve range. Something I can blow air into efficiently.
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
I can see points from Elow…and I agree with Harisonreed’s statements concerning vintage vs. modern horns, but I think the statement by hyperbolica rings the most true to me in reference to marketing.
I started on a YBL-322 and had to sell due to financial issues. Once the opportunity came up to try/buy a double I tried some and bought two horns due to believing I needed a double…but the skill level is simply not there.
I then proceeded to purchase an almost mint YBL-321. If my research is correct, this model stopped production in 1979 which would put it in the vintage category.
It is a bass…the bore size, bell size, bell taper…it’s all bass…and it sounds like a bass. It maybe doesn't have the full authority of sound as a double horn with a dual bore slide or a ‘monster’ bass trombone, but let’s just face it, even if I had that tool I wouldn’t be able to use it that way or accomplish that anyway. The 321 allows me to start working on those principles and techniques to play a bass trombone while allowing me to have the ability to fill that role in a community band or jazz band setting in a stretch, and it is something that I can work with given my experience level with bass trombone. I feel the 321 is an excellent doubler’s bass as for me it has as a beautiful sound which is different then my tenors, and it gives me something that I can at least work with to start developing my skills. It’s probably one of the best if not the best horn I’ve owned.
I’d liken it to having my full sized 1/2 ton truck cause I simply do not need a 3/4 ton truck yet if ever. The 1/2 ton still does truck stuff, and the 321 definitely is rather close to tenor, not the same but close.
I started on a YBL-322 and had to sell due to financial issues. Once the opportunity came up to try/buy a double I tried some and bought two horns due to believing I needed a double…but the skill level is simply not there.
I then proceeded to purchase an almost mint YBL-321. If my research is correct, this model stopped production in 1979 which would put it in the vintage category.
It is a bass…the bore size, bell size, bell taper…it’s all bass…and it sounds like a bass. It maybe doesn't have the full authority of sound as a double horn with a dual bore slide or a ‘monster’ bass trombone, but let’s just face it, even if I had that tool I wouldn’t be able to use it that way or accomplish that anyway. The 321 allows me to start working on those principles and techniques to play a bass trombone while allowing me to have the ability to fill that role in a community band or jazz band setting in a stretch, and it is something that I can work with given my experience level with bass trombone. I feel the 321 is an excellent doubler’s bass as for me it has as a beautiful sound which is different then my tenors, and it gives me something that I can at least work with to start developing my skills. It’s probably one of the best if not the best horn I’ve owned.
I’d liken it to having my full sized 1/2 ton truck cause I simply do not need a 3/4 ton truck yet if ever. The 1/2 ton still does truck stuff, and the 321 definitely is rather close to tenor, not the same but close.
- slidefunk
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Oct 19, 2020
When I shadowed Jim Lutz in the Beetlejuice pit, his double was a modified YBL 612 he says had bought off Andy Martin. The book was maybe 60/40 tenor to bass and he sounded incredible on all the bass stuff.
If you plan on playing a lot of bass trombone and it's within your budget, by all means drop $7k on a boutique horn. It will be a really great horn. But for the odd occasion when you need one, a 612 will probably run you $1500 and sound pretty darn good.
Heck you can even upgrade and get a 613 for just under $2k:
https://share.google/yrqxVT2MCoNHkdd6t
If you plan on playing a lot of bass trombone and it's within your budget, by all means drop $7k on a boutique horn. It will be a really great horn. But for the odd occasion when you need one, a 612 will probably run you $1500 and sound pretty darn good.
Heck you can even upgrade and get a 613 for just under $2k:
https://share.google/yrqxVT2MCoNHkdd6t
- JohntheTheologian
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Apr 12, 2018
I have a Yamaha YBL322R and I like it very much. I'm definitely a doubler and it's not a hard transition between a large bore-- I have a Blessing B88 and a Yamaha 643II.
The YBL322R definitely sounds like a bass bone and its ergonomics are good for me. I also appreciate that it's so much lighter than any double trigger horn I've held. Heavier than either of my large bore tenors, but still manageable to someone 75 years old and beginning to get arthritis in my hands.
The YBL322R definitely sounds like a bass bone and its ergonomics are good for me. I also appreciate that it's so much lighter than any double trigger horn I've held. Heavier than either of my large bore tenors, but still manageable to someone 75 years old and beginning to get arthritis in my hands.
- DCIsky
- Posts: 338
- Joined: May 09, 2020
This thread absolutely exploded BEFORE the OP could tell us the extent of their doubling work, or even the genre that they’re playing in.
There are a lot of settings (wind band particularly) that seem to call for an *inoffensive* bass trombone sound. My personal impression is that ensemble directors say that they’re looking for a “dark” sound, but in reality they want an inoffensive sound that doesn’t change color or stick it one bit. That is, until you’re practically burying the ensemble in pure decibels. In college, all the meatheads feed into this and get massive setups that sound like dull tubas unless Wagner or Bruckner is on the stand. But, most places for doublers to start out (like big band) are perfectly okay with the edge.
If the OP is not in a musical setting that requires them to play a slide tuba, most inexpensive (vintage) horns will be fine, especially to start out with.
There are a lot of settings (wind band particularly) that seem to call for an *inoffensive* bass trombone sound. My personal impression is that ensemble directors say that they’re looking for a “dark” sound, but in reality they want an inoffensive sound that doesn’t change color or stick it one bit. That is, until you’re practically burying the ensemble in pure decibels. In college, all the meatheads feed into this and get massive setups that sound like dull tubas unless Wagner or Bruckner is on the stand. But, most places for doublers to start out (like big band) are perfectly okay with the edge.
If the OP is not in a musical setting that requires them to play a slide tuba, most inexpensive (vintage) horns will be fine, especially to start out with.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
The thread is also not asking the obvious question: if you're primarily a tenor player, why get a bass at all? If something calls for bass trombone, shouldn't a bass trombonist play it?
- Digidog
- Posts: 483
- Joined: Dec 13, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]Probably a single bore, rotors, maybe a 1 leadpipe. I wouldn't read too much into it.[/quote]
[quote="JohnL"]9½" bell too, most likely.[/quote]
Why would it have to be those specs?
The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?
[quote="JohnL"]9½" bell too, most likely.[/quote]
Why would it have to be those specs?
The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Digidog"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="282404" time="1753824594" user_id="3131">
Probably a single bore, rotors, maybe a 1 leadpipe. I wouldn't read too much into it.[/quote]
[quote="JohnL"]9½" bell too, most likely.[/quote]
Why would it have to be those specs?
The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?
</QUOTE>
The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.
Probably a single bore, rotors, maybe a 1 leadpipe. I wouldn't read too much into it.[/quote]
[quote="JohnL"]9½" bell too, most likely.[/quote]
Why would it have to be those specs?
The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?
</QUOTE>
The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="TomInME"]The thread is also not asking the obvious question: if you're primarily a tenor player, why get a bass at all? If something calls for bass trombone, shouldn't a bass trombonist play it?[/quote]
Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.
Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Digidog" post_id="283151" time="1754725660" user_id="4099">
Why would it have to be those specs?
The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?[/quote]
The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.
</QUOTE>
Have to agree with BB on this one.
Why would it have to be those specs?
The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?[/quote]
The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.
</QUOTE>
Have to agree with BB on this one.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Digidog"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="282404" time="1753824594" user_id="3131">
Probably a single bore, rotors, maybe a 1 leadpipe. I wouldn't read too much into it.[/quote]
[quote="JohnL"]9½" bell too, most likely.[/quote]
Why would it have to be those specs?
The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?
</QUOTE>
Note the words "probably" and "likely". Neither of us said that it <B>has</B> to be those specs; my prediction was based on an expectation that the OP, coming to bass trombone after "playing tenor for a long time" would most likely end up with a "middle of the road" sort of configuration.
You'll also notice that Aidan said:
[quote="Burgerbob"]I wouldn't read too much into it.[/quote]
Probably a single bore, rotors, maybe a 1 leadpipe. I wouldn't read too much into it.[/quote]
[quote="JohnL"]9½" bell too, most likely.[/quote]
Why would it have to be those specs?
The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?
</QUOTE>
Note the words "probably" and "likely". Neither of us said that it <B>has</B> to be those specs; my prediction was based on an expectation that the OP, coming to bass trombone after "playing tenor for a long time" would most likely end up with a "middle of the road" sort of configuration.
You'll also notice that Aidan said:
[quote="Burgerbob"]I wouldn't read too much into it.[/quote]
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Just my personal experience, which is only worth very little. The basses I could most easily switch to and just play, as a primarily tenor player, sometimes without having played bass for a while, were a Benge 290, and a couple of Yamaha (613H, and 612).
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="LeTromboniste"]Just my personal experience, which is only worth very little. The basses I could most easily switch to and just play, as a primarily tenor player, sometimes without having played bass for a while, were a Benge 290, and a couple of Yamaha (613H, and 612).[/quote]
Good choices!
Good choices!
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I really wish someone, even someone like Wessex, would build an actual small bass. Everything has been ground into this particular rut of something that is speced like a Bach 50. Let's say there was something with the acoustic properties of a King dual bore 1480 with 2 valves and decent ergo setup. THAT would be a doubling horn.
Wessex makes a 7b clone, the Stearns bass, and a "Super Tenor". At one point they prototyped a dual valve 42b-ish horn which was fantastic, but I think it needed a bit of bell taper help.
There is I think a B&S instrument that comes close, but I've never played it. There was the Olds P24G which had bad ergo and funky valves. Of course the 1480, which lacks a low C (and B) and is another ergo nightmare. Others come close like the Holton tr159.
The advantages of a 1480 based bass would be:
- lighter
- just smaller = easier to transport, hold, see the music, etc
- smaller bores = less of an air hog
- actually sounds and feels like a trombone
The specs would be in the ballpark of:
- ~536/547 dual bore slide
- two valves
- bass taper tuning slide
- bass taper bell
- ~9" bell
Another option would be a bass modeled on the same idea as the Yamaha 350c:
- 1480 bore slide
- C ascending valve
- regular F valve
- 7 position slide (to get the low E)
- post-valve tapers like a regular bass
Wessex makes a 7b clone, the Stearns bass, and a "Super Tenor". At one point they prototyped a dual valve 42b-ish horn which was fantastic, but I think it needed a bit of bell taper help.
There is I think a B&S instrument that comes close, but I've never played it. There was the Olds P24G which had bad ergo and funky valves. Of course the 1480, which lacks a low C (and B) and is another ergo nightmare. Others come close like the Holton tr159.
The advantages of a 1480 based bass would be:
- lighter
- just smaller = easier to transport, hold, see the music, etc
- smaller bores = less of an air hog
- actually sounds and feels like a trombone
The specs would be in the ballpark of:
- ~536/547 dual bore slide
- two valves
- bass taper tuning slide
- bass taper bell
- ~9" bell
Another option would be a bass modeled on the same idea as the Yamaha 350c:
- 1480 bore slide
- C ascending valve
- regular F valve
- 7 position slide (to get the low E)
- post-valve tapers like a regular bass
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.[/quote]
^ Yup. A tweener bass will sound like... a tweener bass. I'm about to put this to test with a double valve bass valve section with a 45 and 1485 bell. I don't think it'll sound like a bass.
Also, even the Olds basses (S22, S24, P22, P24) are real bass sized and sound like it.
^ Yup. A tweener bass will sound like... a tweener bass. I'm about to put this to test with a double valve bass valve section with a 45 and 1485 bell. I don't think it'll sound like a bass.
Also, even the Olds basses (S22, S24, P22, P24) are real bass sized and sound like it.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.[/quote]
Ok, the "sound" of the 1480. You can get a bass sound on a smaller bore. The 1480 was small, G basses were much smaller. "Bass" doesn't have to mean 562 or larger.
Ok, the "sound" of the 1480. You can get a bass sound on a smaller bore. The 1480 was small, G basses were much smaller. "Bass" doesn't have to mean 562 or larger.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="283279" time="1754849219" user_id="7573">
It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.[/quote]
Ok, the "sound" of the 1480. You can get a bass sound on a smaller bore. The 1480 was small, G basses were much smaller. "Bass" doesn't have to mean 562 or larger.
</QUOTE>
My G-bass never really sounded like a bass trombone. Perhaps compared to a British pea shooter, but not even compared with a bunch of student bore horns.
What constitutes a proper sized bass could be somewhat context sensitive. In an orchestra with 0.547" bore tenors, you need a relatively large instrument. In a jazz band with 0.500" tenors something much smaller or lighter built could be perfect (after all, Bart Varsalona was playing a King Symphony with Kenton). For concert band and pit orchestra something in between might be best.
It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.[/quote]
Ok, the "sound" of the 1480. You can get a bass sound on a smaller bore. The 1480 was small, G basses were much smaller. "Bass" doesn't have to mean 562 or larger.
</QUOTE>
My G-bass never really sounded like a bass trombone. Perhaps compared to a British pea shooter, but not even compared with a bunch of student bore horns.
What constitutes a proper sized bass could be somewhat context sensitive. In an orchestra with 0.547" bore tenors, you need a relatively large instrument. In a jazz band with 0.500" tenors something much smaller or lighter built could be perfect (after all, Bart Varsalona was playing a King Symphony with Kenton). For concert band and pit orchestra something in between might be best.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="283279" time="1754849219" user_id="7573">
It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.[/quote]
Ok, the "sound" of the 1480. You can get a bass sound on a smaller bore. The 1480 was small, G basses were much smaller. "Bass" doesn't have to mean 562 or larger.
</QUOTE>
One can settle for the sound on a small bore if they desire.
It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.[/quote]
Ok, the "sound" of the 1480. You can get a bass sound on a smaller bore. The 1480 was small, G basses were much smaller. "Bass" doesn't have to mean 562 or larger.
</QUOTE>
One can settle for the sound on a small bore if they desire.
- Digidog
- Posts: 483
- Joined: Dec 13, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]Note the words "probably" and "likely". Neither of us said that it <B>has</B> to be those specs; my prediction was based on an expectation that the OP, coming to bass trombone after "playing tenor for a long time" would most likely end up with a "middle of the road" sort of configuration.[/quote]
[quote="Burgerbob"]The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.[/quote]
I only asked since your answers to the OP were quick and seemed so self-evident in their ascertations, and I, who has not paid much attention to instrument and mouthpiece specifications as long as they work, found that the Conn 62 I subsequently bought was the easiest for me out of all the horns I tried, and it is dual bore, fairly large belled and with large, open valves.
In my experience, I have never been able to draw a straight line between a smaller, straight bore and a smaller bell and easy playing. The general statistics maybe says that's the case, but I have not heard it expressed like this, nor have I experienced it like that either. Of course I sense and experience differences between single or dual bore, various sizes and valves, but to from there equal any specific configuration to be easier to play hasn't been my experience - this far and to the extent of the number of horns I have played, of course.
I don't read too much into this matter, as @Burgerbob recommended, but I couldn't help asking if your statements were of a general experience or some statistic recommendations that I never had heard of.
I guess it all boils down to the eternal question of what makes a horn great to play for a specific person.
[quote="Burgerbob"]The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.[/quote]
I only asked since your answers to the OP were quick and seemed so self-evident in their ascertations, and I, who has not paid much attention to instrument and mouthpiece specifications as long as they work, found that the Conn 62 I subsequently bought was the easiest for me out of all the horns I tried, and it is dual bore, fairly large belled and with large, open valves.
In my experience, I have never been able to draw a straight line between a smaller, straight bore and a smaller bell and easy playing. The general statistics maybe says that's the case, but I have not heard it expressed like this, nor have I experienced it like that either. Of course I sense and experience differences between single or dual bore, various sizes and valves, but to from there equal any specific configuration to be easier to play hasn't been my experience - this far and to the extent of the number of horns I have played, of course.
I don't read too much into this matter, as @Burgerbob recommended, but I couldn't help asking if your statements were of a general experience or some statistic recommendations that I never had heard of.
I guess it all boils down to the eternal question of what makes a horn great to play for a specific person.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.[/quote]
Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.
Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="blast"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="283369" time="1754934834" user_id="3131">
It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.[/quote]
Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.
</QUOTE>
Moderator! I’m in these pictures and I don’t like it!
But really, when I’m not seriously working on my playing on the horn; the big valves and dual bore can get ugly if I slip. And I’m a bass player 95%+
Cheers,
Andy
It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.[/quote]
Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.
</QUOTE>
Moderator! I’m in these pictures and I don’t like it!
But really, when I’m not seriously working on my playing on the horn; the big valves and dual bore can get ugly if I slip. And I’m a bass player 95%+
Cheers,
Andy
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="blast"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="283369" time="1754934834" user_id="3131">
It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.[/quote]
Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.
</QUOTE>
:clever:
It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.[/quote]
Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.
</QUOTE>
:clever:
- Fruitysloth
- Posts: 421
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="blast"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="283369" time="1754934834" user_id="3131">
It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.[/quote]
Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.
</QUOTE>
Bass doubler here with a Shires Q axial bass. I play a 1 1/4 sized mouthpiece and still feel like it's too much horn for me on occasions. If I play some tuba the morning of the gig I feel a bit better about myself.
It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.[/quote]
Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.
</QUOTE>
Bass doubler here with a Shires Q axial bass. I play a 1 1/4 sized mouthpiece and still feel like it's too much horn for me on occasions. If I play some tuba the morning of the gig I feel a bit better about myself.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="TomInME" post_id="283139" time="1754710534" user_id="17474">
The thread is also not asking the obvious question: if you're primarily a tenor player, why get a bass at all? If something calls for bass trombone, shouldn't a bass trombonist play it?[/quote]
Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.
</QUOTE>
That's the one scenario that calls for a true double - and it's the result of financial constraints, not a compositional ideal.
The thread is also not asking the obvious question: if you're primarily a tenor player, why get a bass at all? If something calls for bass trombone, shouldn't a bass trombonist play it?[/quote]
Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.
</QUOTE>
That's the one scenario that calls for a true double - and it's the result of financial constraints, not a compositional ideal.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="elmsandr"]<QUOTE author="blast" post_id="283371" time="1754935678" user_id="52">
Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.[/quote]
Moderator! I’m in these pictures and I don’t like it!
But really, when I’m not seriously working on my playing on the horn; the big valves and dual bore can get ugly if I slip. And I’m a bass player 95%+
Cheers,
Andy
</QUOTE>
Same - and I'm a bass player 99%+!
My annoyance with these threads is players who don't seem to be at the pinnacle of tenor bone performance thinking their time and money is best spend getting a bass. There are some benefits to learning about other instruments, but actually devoting enough time to get good on them means less time for your primary. Players who double well spend lots of time on both, or are extremely high-level on one before devoting time to the other. But most owners-of-a-double don't spend enough time on either.
Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.[/quote]
Moderator! I’m in these pictures and I don’t like it!
But really, when I’m not seriously working on my playing on the horn; the big valves and dual bore can get ugly if I slip. And I’m a bass player 95%+
Cheers,
Andy
</QUOTE>
Same - and I'm a bass player 99%+!
My annoyance with these threads is players who don't seem to be at the pinnacle of tenor bone performance thinking their time and money is best spend getting a bass. There are some benefits to learning about other instruments, but actually devoting enough time to get good on them means less time for your primary. Players who double well spend lots of time on both, or are extremely high-level on one before devoting time to the other. But most owners-of-a-double don't spend enough time on either.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="TomInME"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="283175" time="1754752049" user_id="7573">
Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.[/quote]
That's the one scenario that calls for a true double - and it's the result of financial constraints, not a compositional ideal.
</QUOTE>
Well not the only one. Recording sessions for movies. Orchestra Concerts of a certain composers music that calls for doubling. Not to mention doubling on tuba.
Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.[/quote]
That's the one scenario that calls for a true double - and it's the result of financial constraints, not a compositional ideal.
</QUOTE>
Well not the only one. Recording sessions for movies. Orchestra Concerts of a certain composers music that calls for doubling. Not to mention doubling on tuba.
- pfrancis
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Jul 22, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="TomInME" post_id="283139" time="1754710534" user_id="17474">
The thread is also not asking the obvious question: if you're primarily a tenor player, why get a bass at all? If something calls for bass trombone, shouldn't a bass trombonist play it?[/quote]
Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.
</QUOTE>
Well, in all but one of the shows Bill mentioned I will also have played the touring shows (in Balt/DC) this year. I spent many years as a tenor only player, and bought a 613H when a great opportunity arose (2017? 2018?) and began practicing. I would not describe myself as a “bass trombonist” but a competent doubler now (years later).
Living in Balt/DC area there are lots of fantastic players (military bandsmen, NSO, BSO, etc) so I consider myself fortunate to play in these settings with some fantastic musicians. When “Suffs” comes to town next year I have been hired to play that one on Trombone/Euphonium. As a resident in the area with the most professional euph players (anywhere?) I am acutely aware of their talents and yet, here I am playing a trombone book with a euphonium double. As a freelance professional I will do the necessary work to put myself in a position to succeed and I would hope anyone doubling would do the same.
I like my 613H, plays well in tune and is “easy” to play given a little more efficiency from the rotors. Like it better than 830/835s I have played thus far. I don’t prefer thayers in bass land (despite playing one for 20ish years on tenor), perhaps too open for me.
The thread is also not asking the obvious question: if you're primarily a tenor player, why get a bass at all? If something calls for bass trombone, shouldn't a bass trombonist play it?[/quote]
Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.
</QUOTE>
Well, in all but one of the shows Bill mentioned I will also have played the touring shows (in Balt/DC) this year. I spent many years as a tenor only player, and bought a 613H when a great opportunity arose (2017? 2018?) and began practicing. I would not describe myself as a “bass trombonist” but a competent doubler now (years later).
Living in Balt/DC area there are lots of fantastic players (military bandsmen, NSO, BSO, etc) so I consider myself fortunate to play in these settings with some fantastic musicians. When “Suffs” comes to town next year I have been hired to play that one on Trombone/Euphonium. As a resident in the area with the most professional euph players (anywhere?) I am acutely aware of their talents and yet, here I am playing a trombone book with a euphonium double. As a freelance professional I will do the necessary work to put myself in a position to succeed and I would hope anyone doubling would do the same.
I like my 613H, plays well in tune and is “easy” to play given a little more efficiency from the rotors. Like it better than 830/835s I have played thus far. I don’t prefer thayers in bass land (despite playing one for 20ish years on tenor), perhaps too open for me.
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="sf105"]you mean something like this? I'm so tempted.
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2729379 ... 5266017629">https://www.facebook.com/groups/272937956160696/permalink/24303435266017629/?sale_post_id=24303435266017629</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
Resist, resist. Music for small bass outside of big band etc. Almost never has need of two valves. Nobody will believe it's a small bass either.
Resist, resist. Music for small bass outside of big band etc. Almost never has need of two valves. Nobody will believe it's a small bass either.
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="blast"]<QUOTE author="sf105" post_id="283491" time="1755033244" user_id="173">
you mean something like this? I'm so tempted.
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2729379 ... 5266017629">https://www.facebook.com/groups/272937956160696/permalink/24303435266017629/?sale_post_id=24303435266017629</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
Resist, resist. Music for small bass outside of big band etc. Almost never has need of two valves. Nobody will believe it's a small bass either.
</QUOTE>
Not likely to happen. But I expect people will see all the valves and accept it as a bass, and that second valve will be handy for those running passages around low Bb.
Both of us have used our Conn 14H's as a small bass, so I imagine it's a similar concept to that?
Didn't Stu Dempster add a second valve to his 88H? But then he had some unusual requirements.
you mean something like this? I'm so tempted.
Resist, resist. Music for small bass outside of big band etc. Almost never has need of two valves. Nobody will believe it's a small bass either.
</QUOTE>
Not likely to happen. But I expect people will see all the valves and accept it as a bass, and that second valve will be handy for those running passages around low Bb.
Both of us have used our Conn 14H's as a small bass, so I imagine it's a similar concept to that?
Didn't Stu Dempster add a second valve to his 88H? But then he had some unusual requirements.
- tromboneVan
- Posts: 270
- Joined: May 21, 2019
This instrument can be made to be a small bass trombone, and as a double bell modular horn. Built by Rath
<YOUTUBE id="JdkcXoQMFUM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkcXoQMFUM</YOUTUBE>
Stephen Menotti, current trombonist of MusikFabrik has a similar set up. It looks to be a Conn 112h valve section, with tenor bell, and slide, and it can be played with the double bell configuration as well. I would say it is more of a very unique tweener set up than an actual bass, but this brings to question the concept of what a doubling bass is to begin with.
<YOUTUBE id="4hU-2_fkIPM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hU-2_fkIPM</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="xWqdpmbzQEg" list="RDxWqdpmbzQEg"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWqdpmb ... rt_radio=1">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWqdpmbzQEg&list=RDxWqdpmbzQEg&start_radio=1</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="JdkcXoQMFUM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkcXoQMFUM</YOUTUBE>
Stephen Menotti, current trombonist of MusikFabrik has a similar set up. It looks to be a Conn 112h valve section, with tenor bell, and slide, and it can be played with the double bell configuration as well. I would say it is more of a very unique tweener set up than an actual bass, but this brings to question the concept of what a doubling bass is to begin with.
<YOUTUBE id="4hU-2_fkIPM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hU-2_fkIPM</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="xWqdpmbzQEg" list="RDxWqdpmbzQEg"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWqdpmb ... rt_radio=1">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWqdpmbzQEg&list=RDxWqdpmbzQEg&start_radio=1</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>
- Leanit
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Sep 04, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.[/quote]
Exactly. This isn't complicated. If you're somebody who spends the majority of your time on tenor but occasionally find yourself hired for a show that has some bass bone or euphonium, you want versions of those horns that feel familiar to your tenor to hold and blow, even if they aren't things you play often.
Exactly. This isn't complicated. If you're somebody who spends the majority of your time on tenor but occasionally find yourself hired for a show that has some bass bone or euphonium, you want versions of those horns that feel familiar to your tenor to hold and blow, even if they aren't things you play often.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tromboneVan"]This instrument can be made to be a small bass trombone, and as a double bell modular horn. Built by Rath
<YOUTUBE id="JdkcXoQMFUM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkcXoQMFUM</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
...
Oh, hold it. He said his tenor configured as a double trigger bass is especially useful in new music. Where's Elow?
[/quote]
<YOUTUBE id="JdkcXoQMFUM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkcXoQMFUM</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
...
Oh, hold it. He said his tenor configured as a double trigger bass is especially useful in new music. Where's Elow?
[/quote]
- brtnats
- Posts: 341
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
[quote="Leanit"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="283170" time="1754749903" user_id="3131">
The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.[/quote]
Exactly. This isn't complicated. If you're somebody who spends the majority of your time on tenor but occasionally find yourself hired for a show that has some bass bone or euphonium, you want versions of those horns that feel familiar to your tenor to hold and blow, even if they aren't things you play often.
</QUOTE>
+1. The best doubling bass is a bass that’s easy to play that sounds good and lets you be a bass player when you pick it up. For me, that means a dependent with rotors, single bore slide, tighter leadpipe, 9.5 inch bell. And I play it as a single every time I can.
The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.[/quote]
Exactly. This isn't complicated. If you're somebody who spends the majority of your time on tenor but occasionally find yourself hired for a show that has some bass bone or euphonium, you want versions of those horns that feel familiar to your tenor to hold and blow, even if they aren't things you play often.
</QUOTE>
+1. The best doubling bass is a bass that’s easy to play that sounds good and lets you be a bass player when you pick it up. For me, that means a dependent with rotors, single bore slide, tighter leadpipe, 9.5 inch bell. And I play it as a single every time I can.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Leanit"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="283170" time="1754749903" user_id="3131">
The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.[/quote]
Exactly. This isn't complicated. If you're somebody who spends the majority of your time on tenor but occasionally find yourself hired for a show that has some bass bone or euphonium, you want versions of those horns that feel familiar to your tenor to hold and blow, even if they aren't things you play often.
</QUOTE>
The only thing I’ll disagree with is “familiar to your tenor” part. Just needs to be an instrument that responds easily.
The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.[/quote]
Exactly. This isn't complicated. If you're somebody who spends the majority of your time on tenor but occasionally find yourself hired for a show that has some bass bone or euphonium, you want versions of those horns that feel familiar to your tenor to hold and blow, even if they aren't things you play often.
</QUOTE>
The only thing I’ll disagree with is “familiar to your tenor” part. Just needs to be an instrument that responds easily.
- Pezza
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Aug 24, 2021
I have a King 5B
.545 bore, 9" bell. Trigger pulls to a flat E!
Definitely a bass, not a tenor.
Used to play a Bach 50, had to downsize due to injury. Would love to try a 45!
.545 bore, 9" bell. Trigger pulls to a flat E!
Definitely a bass, not a tenor.
Used to play a Bach 50, had to downsize due to injury. Would love to try a 45!
- slidesix
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Jan 03, 2025
OP hasn’t been back to this thread. Oshkosher, did you ever get out to Edward’s? If so, what kit did they have ready for you to demo? I figure that might answer the question.
Edwards doubtless has successfully fitted many “doublers”. And based on try outs, sales, and long term happiness I bet they have a decent idea of what sort of “typical” horn keeps the “typical” doubler happy and successful. They seem like a successful business with both customer and non custom horns. So surely they have experience here.
I think finetales has the right idea here. Since I don’t know what Edwards has in mind I need to guess. My guess is a successful “doublers bass trombone” is one that takes less INPUT to be successful. Easy to play
What does Input mean here? Could be less quirks. Could be less daily or monthly practice time to maintain that success. Could be less air or less athleticism. Could even be less money. Requiring less of all or any of those are valuable to a doubler. And sales is about creating value. It could even be a full custom horn but with all of the middle-of-the-road options. Whatever it is I’d guess it is easy to play.
What finetales said.
Edwards doubtless has successfully fitted many “doublers”. And based on try outs, sales, and long term happiness I bet they have a decent idea of what sort of “typical” horn keeps the “typical” doubler happy and successful. They seem like a successful business with both customer and non custom horns. So surely they have experience here.
I think finetales has the right idea here. Since I don’t know what Edwards has in mind I need to guess. My guess is a successful “doublers bass trombone” is one that takes less INPUT to be successful. Easy to play
What does Input mean here? Could be less quirks. Could be less daily or monthly practice time to maintain that success. Could be less air or less athleticism. Could even be less money. Requiring less of all or any of those are valuable to a doubler. And sales is about creating value. It could even be a full custom horn but with all of the middle-of-the-road options. Whatever it is I’d guess it is easy to play.
What finetales said.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="slidesix"]OP hasn’t been back to this thread. Oshkosher, did you ever get out to Edward’s? If so, what kit did they have ready for you to demo? I figure that might answer the question.[/quote]
Good question. I had to scroll through endless posts on my phone to find the original, which was July 29 - Oshkosher's one and only. It's now August 17. How about an update from Oshkosher?
Good question. I had to scroll through endless posts on my phone to find the original, which was July 29 - Oshkosher's one and only. It's now August 17. How about an update from Oshkosher?
- oshkosher
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Jul 20, 2025
OP update: Rather than going straight to Edwards, I found a local shop with a nice selection of bass trombones (Shires, Getzen Eterna, Edwards, Yamaha). I noticed huge differences between the horns. I didn't like my tone on the Eterna; it seems small and too edgy. The Edwards (a dual-bore) felt like I just didn't have enough air to fill up the horn, and the second trigger was way too far from my fingers to reach easily. The Shires was nice, but the Yamaha YBL-835 was easier to play in multiple ways. The triggers fit my hands much better, the tone resonated easily without tons of air, and compared to the Shires notes slotted much more precisely when I had both triggers in.
So, I got the Yamaha, and I'm having a great time with it. After I've built some bass experience on it I'll try some other horns again. It sounds like Yamaha horns are respected well enough that I should be able to sell it if I grow out of it.
Now I have to decide what mouthpiece to use on it, and something tells me there are a plethora of opinions about that on this site :)
What am I using the horn for? I'm not a pro, and I don't have a regular group. This is just for my own fun, and to have an extra tool in my bag if and when I do find a regular group. I've got a goal of being competent enough on it to play it in some ensembles at Humboldt brass chamber music workshop next year.
So, I got the Yamaha, and I'm having a great time with it. After I've built some bass experience on it I'll try some other horns again. It sounds like Yamaha horns are respected well enough that I should be able to sell it if I grow out of it.
Now I have to decide what mouthpiece to use on it, and something tells me there are a plethora of opinions about that on this site :)
What am I using the horn for? I'm not a pro, and I don't have a regular group. This is just for my own fun, and to have an extra tool in my bag if and when I do find a regular group. I've got a goal of being competent enough on it to play it in some ensembles at Humboldt brass chamber music workshop next year.
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
[quote="oshkosher"]So, I got the Yamaha, and I'm having a great time with it. After I've built some bass experience on it I'll try some other horns again. It sounds like Yamaha horns are respected well enough that I should be able to sell it if I grow out of it.
Now I have to decide what mouthpiece to use on it, and something tells me there are a plethora of opinions about that on this site :)
What am I using the horn for? I'm not a pro, and I don't have a regular group. This is just for my own fun, and to have an extra tool in my bag if and when I do find a regular group. I've got a goal of being competent enough on it to play it in some ensembles at Humboldt brass chamber music workshop next year.[/quote] Those are nice horns! I would suggest you start with a Yamaha 58 or 59. If I recall, the stock mouthpiece that comes with the YBL-835 is HUGE.
Now I have to decide what mouthpiece to use on it, and something tells me there are a plethora of opinions about that on this site :)
What am I using the horn for? I'm not a pro, and I don't have a regular group. This is just for my own fun, and to have an extra tool in my bag if and when I do find a regular group. I've got a goal of being competent enough on it to play it in some ensembles at Humboldt brass chamber music workshop next year.[/quote] Those are nice horns! I would suggest you start with a Yamaha 58 or 59. If I recall, the stock mouthpiece that comes with the YBL-835 is HUGE.
- oshkosher
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Jul 20, 2025
It came with a 61D4L mouthpiece, an absolute bucket compared to the Hammond 12ML I use on my tenor.
- dbwhitaker
- Posts: 196
- Joined: May 16, 2019
[quote="oshkosher"]I found a local shop with a nice selection of bass trombones (Shires, Getzen Eterna, Edwards, Yamaha).[/quote]
What shop did you go to? It's hard to find a shop with a nice selection of bass trombones.
What shop did you go to? It's hard to find a shop with a nice selection of bass trombones.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="oshkosher"]OP update: Rather than going straight to Edwards, I found a local shop with a nice selection of bass trombones (Shires, Getzen Eterna, Edwards, Yamaha). I noticed huge differences between the horns. I didn't like my tone on the Eterna; it seems small and too edgy. The Edwards (a dual-bore) felt like I just didn't have enough air to fill up the horn, and the second trigger was way too far from my fingers to reach easily. The Shires was nice, but the Yamaha YBL-835 was easier to play in multiple ways. The triggers fit my hands much better, the tone resonated easily without tons of air, and compared to the Shires notes slotted much more precisely when I had both triggers in.
So, I got the Yamaha, and I'm having a great time with it. After I've built some bass experience on it I'll try some other horns again. It sounds like Yamaha horns are respected well enough that I should be able to sell it if I grow out of it.
Now I have to decide what mouthpiece to use on it, and something tells me there are a plethora of opinions about that on this site :)
What am I using the horn for? I'm not a pro, and I don't have a regular group. This is just for my own fun, and to have an extra tool in my bag if and when I do find a regular group. I've got a goal of being competent enough on it to play it in some ensembles at Humboldt brass chamber music workshop next year.[/quote]
Very nice instrument to play!! Outgrow it? We don't rally outgrow them but one's tastes can change with time. Enjoy.
So, I got the Yamaha, and I'm having a great time with it. After I've built some bass experience on it I'll try some other horns again. It sounds like Yamaha horns are respected well enough that I should be able to sell it if I grow out of it.
Now I have to decide what mouthpiece to use on it, and something tells me there are a plethora of opinions about that on this site :)
What am I using the horn for? I'm not a pro, and I don't have a regular group. This is just for my own fun, and to have an extra tool in my bag if and when I do find a regular group. I've got a goal of being competent enough on it to play it in some ensembles at Humboldt brass chamber music workshop next year.[/quote]
Very nice instrument to play!! Outgrow it? We don't rally outgrow them but one's tastes can change with time. Enjoy.
- oshkosher
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Jul 20, 2025
[quote="dbwhitaker"]<QUOTE author="oshkosher" post_id="283964" time="1755727683" user_id="19722">
I found a local shop with a nice selection of bass trombones (Shires, Getzen Eterna, Edwards, Yamaha).[/quote]
What shop did you go to? It's hard to find a shop with a nice selection of bass trombones.
</QUOTE>
Chuck Levin's, near Silver Spring MD.
I found a local shop with a nice selection of bass trombones (Shires, Getzen Eterna, Edwards, Yamaha).[/quote]
What shop did you go to? It's hard to find a shop with a nice selection of bass trombones.
</QUOTE>
Chuck Levin's, near Silver Spring MD.