Hello! Im looking for some tips and maybe some exercises for an issue ive been having. I can double tongue on one note quite well, the sound is full and the ta and ka sound alike. But when i have to double tongue a moving line, i just instantly fail. The sound is super toungy, and I feel like the air doesnt flow as well. This has annoyed me since im getting to a level where i need to do this. Any tips? Thanks!

Let me ask you a question. Can you double-tongue on different notes as long as they are in the same partial? Like, can you start tonguing on a tuning Bb and then move to 2nd position A and back to Bb while double-tonguing? Like, Bb-Bb-Bb-Bb-A-A-A-A-Bb?

If so, can you continue going down to Ab, G, Gb, etc.?

Or is it literally just one note you can do it on? The reason I ask is it may reveal what you challenge is.

First, note what this guy is advocating... building up technical passages one note at a time.

<YOUTUBE id="f9X4h-cY1uw">[media]https://youtu.be/f9X4h-cY1uw</YOUTUBE>

Do that for your double tongued run ( or arpeggio, etc).

Of course you can play the first note...

tah

add the second note...

tah-kah

WOODSHED just those two notes until they are coming out right, in tempo. Do it many times and observe that some are better than others. Do more of whatever worked better. You may have to work on it for many days.

I have found it helped to really whack the second one if I was having trouble getting it to speak.

tah-KAHH!

you can dial that back down after you get both going.

Then you keep adding notes, one at a time, never adding a new note until the previous ones are working right.

tah-kah-TAH

tah-kah-tah-KAH

tah-kah-tah-kah-TAH

[quote="tbdana"]Let me ask you a question. Can you double-tongue on different notes as long as they are in the same partial? Like, can you start tonguing on a tuning Bb and then move to 2nd position A and back to Bb while double-tonguing? Like, Bb-Bb-Bb-Bb-A-A-A-A-Bb?

If so, can you continue going down to Ab, G, Gb, etc.?

Or is it literally just one note you can do it on? The reason I ask is it may reveal what you challenge is.[/quote]
Yes I can do this, in fact I often do similar things in my fundamental practice with good success

Try exercises that involve playing scales and chord arpeggios. Double tongue each pitch 4 times, then 2 times, then one attack per pitch. It's OK, and probably good, to practice the exercise where you're double tonguing one attack per pitch slow enough that you could single tongue it, striving to make each attack sound the same.

If you haven't already, check out Jacob's resource that he posted here a bit ago. Lots of good info that might click or inspire you.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://jacobgarchik.substack.com/p/dou ... and-profit">https://jacobgarchik.substack.com/p/double-tonguing-for-fun-and-profit</LINK_TEXT>

Dave

I have always practiced double and triple 3 ways -

Single notes all over the range

Chromatic scales all over the range

Arpeggios all over the range

Always legato as smooth as possible, first. Then with harder articulation.

And from very slow to as fast as possible.

I would argue that the skill is more than starting at the first note and working on adding additional notes in the phrase slowly. That approach might even be counter productive.

The skill here really is maintaining the breath support, sound, and *resistance* throughout the entire phrase, from the first note to the end. The double-tonguing is just incidental to that basic premise.

Just my opinion, but I think you focus on the starts of the notes and each note as a separate entity to your own detriment.

I'm pretty good at double-/doodle-tonguing. This is what worked for me:

First, realize that there is no lower limit to the tempo of double-tonguing. So start slow.

Second, there are two components to this: (1) the tongue movement, and (2) coordinating it with (a) slide movement and (b) crossing partials. By far, the hardest part of that is coordination with crossing partials.

My progression involved these steps:

1. Start slow, one one note. Single tongue two, double tongue two, until they sound the same. Do the same thing on notes all over the horn. Increase speed as possible. Spend more time on notes that are more difficult.

2. Play patterns in the same partial, making single and double tonguing sound the same, starting slow and increasing speed. Do this over as many partials as possible.

3. Play patterns across partials, starting with repeated notes, like four 16th notes on F in the staff followed by four on A, and then back to F. Then do two articulations on each note. Then one articulation for each note.

4. Alternate lip slurs and double-tongue on patterns. Like, a triad. F-A-C-A-F. Do that in a lip slur first, then add the tongue, alternating with one lip slurred trial then one tongued triad.

5. Do the same with with major scales. Single-tongue the scale up and down, followed by double-tongue the scale up and down. Start very slowly and make both single and double tonguing sound the same. When you can do that, start to increase speed. I did it by breaking a major scale in half and practicing each half, then marrying them into an entire scale.

6. Move to more complicated patterns involving scale segments, intervals and note encapsulations. Practice across the entire range of the horn.

7. Finally, when you're getting good at this, double-tongue long phrases. It's one thing to do a scale or a few notes, but you're not fluent until you can just noodle around the horn double-tonguing. Take a deep breath and try to play 4 to 8 measures of double-tongued 16th notes up, down, and all around the horn, in all registers, in a single breath. When you get to this point, you've got it.

I had nothing when this first went up, but recently have been trying to stuff more things into limited practice time. Multiple tonguing is one of those things that I want to do a little each day.

I’m just taking my easier Blume etudes and playing them through at moderate tempos single tonguing one bar and multiple tonging the next. I’m getting many more reps of double and triple tonguing than ever before and doing the practice at a moderate tempo is keeping things relaxed.

I had one ensemble coach who told us that multiple tonguing was for clarity and ease, not necessarily speed.

Once the coordination and sound of the articulation is in place it is not hard to speed it up. There is (re)improvement happening. I can play again bits from solo repertoire my tongue hasn’t been up to for a decade or so.

When doing this I’m often splaying a lot of notes all over, but also making intervals on the “k” part of the articulations I usually wouldn’t try. It’s five minutes that have been improving my facility quite quickly.

Resurrecting a slightly old thread to say - if you don't keep you multiple tonguing in check, it will disappear.

Just came off of a long stint of not playing much, jumping back into deep practice, and finding that my double tonguing is rather eroded. I guess that's fairly obvious since mot people here are very experienced, but I have just decided I'm going to put some serious time in on my multiple tonguing as I've been working on my bebop playing.

All that said, I'm curious - what are the most effective ways to get your brain to work fast enough to improvise at tempos that demand double tonguing? I think my brain has speed up little by little over the years of practicing, but to get to where I can think of AND execute a line containing that much information that goes at the speed of my double tongue is kind of tough.

I've heard of focusing on target notes and basically filling with whatever fits - chromatic, diatonic or intervals. I've been dipping my toe in just slowing stuff waaaay down and playing normal double time lines at crazy-slow tempos, but that still means you gotta know WHAT to play in a double-time line... if that makes sense.

Transcribe. Practice what others have done.

And I don't mean buy a book of transcriptions. Do it yourself.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Transcribe. Practice what others have done.

And I don't mean buy a book of transcriptions. Do it yourself.[/quote]

Yes, this is important. Remember that generations of players faced these same problems and came up with solutions so don't try to reinvent the wheel by coming up with new vocabulary from scratch. J.J.'s vocabulary is brilliant not just because he can articulate it at rapid speeds but because it is tailor made for the instrument. The particular notes he uses are based in classic bebop Bird and Diz but customized for the trombone to require a minimum of slide movement.