A trombone GOAT thread
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I'm asking the question "Who is the best trombone player of all time?"
By that I mean who has the best command of the instrument overall, regardless of genre, regardless of era. Not the best classical player, or the best jazz player, or the most musical, all of which is subjective. A little less subjective is who is the best technician? Who played the trombone best, regardless of the music being played?
Give your vote, and tell us why.
I'm sure we'll all be in perfect agreement! :D
By that I mean who has the best command of the instrument overall, regardless of genre, regardless of era. Not the best classical player, or the best jazz player, or the most musical, all of which is subjective. A little less subjective is who is the best technician? Who played the trombone best, regardless of the music being played?
Give your vote, and tell us why.
I'm sure we'll all be in perfect agreement! :D
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Frank Rosolino
Christian Lindberg
Christian Lindberg
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="EriKon"]Marshall Gilkes[/quote]
I've said before that I think Marshall is the best technical trombonist alive today. I'm not sure I'd call him the best of all time, but the man is a beast of a player. (He said nice things about my Tribute album, so that vaulted him up several spots on my all-time list. :mrgreen: )
I've said before that I think Marshall is the best technical trombonist alive today. I'm not sure I'd call him the best of all time, but the man is a beast of a player. (He said nice things about my Tribute album, so that vaulted him up several spots on my all-time list. :mrgreen: )
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="EriKon" post_id="283196" time="1754765242" user_id="15077">
Marshall Gilkes[/quote]
I've said before that I think Marshall is the best technical trombonist alive today. I'm not sure I'd call him the best of all time, but the man is a beast of a player. (He said nice things about my Tribute album, so that vaulted him up several spots on my all-time list. :mrgreen: )
</QUOTE>
You can't start the thread and not vote yourself.
Marshall Gilkes[/quote]
I've said before that I think Marshall is the best technical trombonist alive today. I'm not sure I'd call him the best of all time, but the man is a beast of a player. (He said nice things about my Tribute album, so that vaulted him up several spots on my all-time list. :mrgreen: )
</QUOTE>
You can't start the thread and not vote yourself.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="283202" time="1754766611" user_id="16498">
I've said before that I think Marshall is the best technical trombonist alive today. I'm not sure I'd call him the best of all time, but the man is a beast of a player. (He said nice things about my Tribute album, so that vaulted him up several spots on my all-time list. :mrgreen: )[/quote]
You can't start the thread and not vote yourself.
</QUOTE>
Don't tell me what to do! :x :D
I thought my vote would be pretty obvious from many of my other posts. I don't think there has ever been a better technical trombone player in the history of the multiverse than this guy.
I've said before that I think Marshall is the best technical trombonist alive today. I'm not sure I'd call him the best of all time, but the man is a beast of a player. (He said nice things about my Tribute album, so that vaulted him up several spots on my all-time list. :mrgreen: )[/quote]
You can't start the thread and not vote yourself.
</QUOTE>
Don't tell me what to do! :x :D
I thought my vote would be pretty obvious from many of my other posts. I don't think there has ever been a better technical trombone player in the history of the multiverse than this guy.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Probably the guy who was more technically advanced by a larger degree than anyone else in his time was Arthur Pryor.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
This is definitely a different version than the published chart we're familiar with today, and shortened due to the limits of the technology. But I think that even given the limitations of this early recording, some things are clear to me:
Pryor was standing close to the mic compared to the band.
Pryor had a huge, warm sound.
He had great range, with consistent control.
Speed chops, obviously.
The articulation and vibrato definitely is different from what we're used to hearing out of trombonists today. Styles move on.
And, of course, the résumé: Pryor was a featured soloist in J.P. Sousa's band which was the best in its style in the world.
I don't know of anyone else in Pryor's time who is even close to being able to do this.
<YOUTUBE id="3K8SsCbROZ0">[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K8SsCbROZ0</YOUTUBE>
Pryor was standing close to the mic compared to the band.
Pryor had a huge, warm sound.
He had great range, with consistent control.
Speed chops, obviously.
The articulation and vibrato definitely is different from what we're used to hearing out of trombonists today. Styles move on.
And, of course, the résumé: Pryor was a featured soloist in J.P. Sousa's band which was the best in its style in the world.
I don't know of anyone else in Pryor's time who is even close to being able to do this.
<YOUTUBE id="3K8SsCbROZ0">
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]A little less subjective is who is the best technician? Who played the trombone best, regardless of the music being played?
[/quote]
I think even "best technician" is ultimately very subjective and better split into multiple categories.
If by "technician" you mean "fastest/cleanest", I'd say Bill Watrous or Bob McChesney.
If by "technician" you mean "most perfect sound/note production/consistency" I'd say Joe Alessi or Jim Markey.
That being said, I personally think the closest thing to an objective answer to "trombone GOAT" (no matter how you interpret that) is the one that everyone can understand why you chose it, even if they don't agree themselves. So I think the answer has to be Christian Lindberg.
[/quote]
I think even "best technician" is ultimately very subjective and better split into multiple categories.
If by "technician" you mean "fastest/cleanest", I'd say Bill Watrous or Bob McChesney.
If by "technician" you mean "most perfect sound/note production/consistency" I'd say Joe Alessi or Jim Markey.
That being said, I personally think the closest thing to an objective answer to "trombone GOAT" (no matter how you interpret that) is the one that everyone can understand why you chose it, even if they don't agree themselves. So I think the answer has to be Christian Lindberg.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]Probably the guy who was more technically advanced by a larger degree than anyone else in his time was Arthur Pryor.[/quote]
Before Pryor, there was Frederick Neil Innes. I don't think there are any recordings of him, just reports of his technical prowess. During his time with Patrick Gilmore's band (the premier American band of the era), he had an ongoing feud with Gilmore's cornet soloist Jules Levy wherein he would "one up" Levy by playing the same solos.
The technical feats of players like Pryor and Innes are all the more impressive when one considers that they were playing on slides that weren't as fast as modern slides.
Before Pryor, there was Frederick Neil Innes. I don't think there are any recordings of him, just reports of his technical prowess. During his time with Patrick Gilmore's band (the premier American band of the era), he had an ongoing feud with Gilmore's cornet soloist Jules Levy wherein he would "one up" Levy by playing the same solos.
The technical feats of players like Pryor and Innes are all the more impressive when one considers that they were playing on slides that weren't as fast as modern slides.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]I don't know of anyone else in Pryor's time who is even close to being able to do this.[/quote]
From Arthur Pryor's obituary (per Wikipedia):
[color=#0000BF]Once while in Germany, all the trombonists of the German Army bands were ordered to hear him play. They were so amazed at his playing that they insisted on taking his trombone apart, refusing to believe that it was natural. Finally one German said: "No one can play so well. It is a Yankee trick."
From Arthur Pryor's obituary (per Wikipedia):
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
This is an impossible question. Standout players in the classical genre tend to have some characteristics while players in the jazz idiom have different characteristics. It's like claiming that Wynton Marsalis is the greatest trumpeter of all time.
Also, how can we do a fair comparison between living and dead players. Pryor and Inness were “rock stars“ in their day. Johannes Rochut, Altschausky, and Raichman in theirs. Now it's Alessi and Markey. Each were great players. Some better at some things and others at other things. In the jazz idiom, how do you sort between Rossolino, Brookmeyer, Clifford Brown, Frank Rehak, Watrous, etc. Each great in his time and each with a specialty. Could Watrous play Dixieland better than Jack Teagarden? Tommy Dorsey play better bop than JJ Johnson?
Sorry. I vote for no GOAT. We have a lot of great players to emulate and enjoy. Each for his (or her) particular achievements.
Also, how can we do a fair comparison between living and dead players. Pryor and Inness were “rock stars“ in their day. Johannes Rochut, Altschausky, and Raichman in theirs. Now it's Alessi and Markey. Each were great players. Some better at some things and others at other things. In the jazz idiom, how do you sort between Rossolino, Brookmeyer, Clifford Brown, Frank Rehak, Watrous, etc. Each great in his time and each with a specialty. Could Watrous play Dixieland better than Jack Teagarden? Tommy Dorsey play better bop than JJ Johnson?
Sorry. I vote for no GOAT. We have a lot of great players to emulate and enjoy. Each for his (or her) particular achievements.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I agree with the others that have said that the question is too broad, but if I absolutely can only choose one, it would be Urbie Green.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- ryant
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Jan 18, 2023
Michel Becquet. Listen to him play Blue Bells. It is on YouTube. He doesn’t play it super fast. But it is my favorite recording.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
<YOUTUBE id="-GSNmLGUnx0" t="132">[media]https://youtu.be/-GSNmLGUnx0?feature=shared&t=2m12s</YOUTUBE>
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="BGuttman"]This is an impossible question. Standout players in the classical genre tend to have some characteristics while players in the jazz idiom have different characteristics. It's like claiming that Wynton Marsalis is the greatest trumpeter of all time.
Also, how can we do a fair comparison between living and dead players. Pryor and Inness were “rock stars“ in their day. Johannes Rochut, Altschausky, and Raichman in theirs. Now it's Alessi and Markey. Each were great players. Some better at some things and others at other things. In the jazz idiom, how do you sort between Rossolino, Brookmeyer, Clifford Brown, Frank Rehak, Watrous, etc. Each great in his time and each with a specialty. Could Watrous play Dixieland better than Jack Teagarden? Tommy Dorsey play better bop than JJ Johnson?
Sorry. I vote for no GOAT. We have a lot of great players to emulate and enjoy. Each for his (or her) particular achievements.[/quote]
This is why I limited my question to technical playing ability, and specifically indicated it was not about genre, time, musicality, etc.
Also, how can we do a fair comparison between living and dead players. Pryor and Inness were “rock stars“ in their day. Johannes Rochut, Altschausky, and Raichman in theirs. Now it's Alessi and Markey. Each were great players. Some better at some things and others at other things. In the jazz idiom, how do you sort between Rossolino, Brookmeyer, Clifford Brown, Frank Rehak, Watrous, etc. Each great in his time and each with a specialty. Could Watrous play Dixieland better than Jack Teagarden? Tommy Dorsey play better bop than JJ Johnson?
Sorry. I vote for no GOAT. We have a lot of great players to emulate and enjoy. Each for his (or her) particular achievements.[/quote]
This is why I limited my question to technical playing ability, and specifically indicated it was not about genre, time, musicality, etc.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]<YOUTUBE id="-GSNmLGUnx0" t="132">[media]https://youtu.be/-GSNmLGUnx0?feature=shared&t=2m12s</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
The most impressive thing in that, to my mind, is the breathing.
The tonguing through what would otherwise be fairly pedestrian lip slurs is also impressive. But unless he's circular breathing that somehow (I can't circular breathe over licks like that), I'm most impressed with his lung volume and efficiency.
The most impressive thing in that, to my mind, is the breathing.
The tonguing through what would otherwise be fairly pedestrian lip slurs is also impressive. But unless he's circular breathing that somehow (I can't circular breathe over licks like that), I'm most impressed with his lung volume and efficiency.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]
The most impressive thing in that, to my mind, is the breathing.
The tonguing through what would otherwise be fairly pedestrian lip slurs is also impressive. But unless he's circular breathing that somehow (I can't circular breathe over licks like that), I'm most impressed with his lung volume and efficiency.[/quote]
I'm impressed with all of it. On the Vivaldi I would like to hear anyone play those final intervals like that. Pedestrian lip slurs?
Here he plays alien music from another planet. Just listen for a few seconds. The sheet music for this is ridiculous:
<YOUTUBE id="NjpuozwMeqA" t="637">[media]https://youtu.be/NjpuozwMeqA?feature=shared&t=10m37s</YOUTUBE>
More alien music. It's important to realize that the sheet music was written *before* he played this, not after:
<YOUTUBE id="OGwx7Sh0LzI" t="29">[media]https://youtu.be/OGwx7Sh0LzI?feature=shared&t=0m29s</YOUTUBE>
More pedestrian lip slurs <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>:
<YOUTUBE id="OPzwd2eP1qY" t="1188">[media]https://youtu.be/OPzwd2eP1qY?feature=shared&t=19m48s</YOUTUBE>
Very difficult mixed meter:
<YOUTUBE id="8rHBL5UL9kU">[media]https://youtu.be/8rHBL5UL9kU?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>
There another piece where he accompanies himself and also plays in two different meters at the same time, Keren by Xenakis
The most impressive thing in that, to my mind, is the breathing.
The tonguing through what would otherwise be fairly pedestrian lip slurs is also impressive. But unless he's circular breathing that somehow (I can't circular breathe over licks like that), I'm most impressed with his lung volume and efficiency.[/quote]
I'm impressed with all of it. On the Vivaldi I would like to hear anyone play those final intervals like that. Pedestrian lip slurs?
Here he plays alien music from another planet. Just listen for a few seconds. The sheet music for this is ridiculous:
<YOUTUBE id="NjpuozwMeqA" t="637">
More alien music. It's important to realize that the sheet music was written *before* he played this, not after:
<YOUTUBE id="OGwx7Sh0LzI" t="29">
More pedestrian lip slurs <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>:
<YOUTUBE id="OPzwd2eP1qY" t="1188">
Very difficult mixed meter:
<YOUTUBE id="8rHBL5UL9kU">
There another piece where he accompanies himself and also plays in two different meters at the same time, Keren by Xenakis
- Jimkinkella
- Posts: 286
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
James Markey
That guy has an amazing command of the physical instrument.
I sat next to him in a trombone choir for an afternoon (when he was 18~19ish?) and it was a serious lesson on tone and control.
I also like Urbie’s Flight of the Bumblebees better than Lindbergh’sl
yomv
That guy has an amazing command of the physical instrument.
I sat next to him in a trombone choir for an afternoon (when he was 18~19ish?) and it was a serious lesson on tone and control.
I also like Urbie’s Flight of the Bumblebees better than Lindbergh’sl
yomv
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
For me Christian Lindberg is the greatest trombonist to ever play music on the instrument.
Tommy Dorsey is the greatest musician to ever play trombone.
Tommy Dorsey is the greatest musician to ever play trombone.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
There is no one greatest yet many great ones. One can have a favorite but I guess the question does get the debate started.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
But as far as being a technician? We can at least narrow the list down at that point. The OP says GOAT but I think she is really looking for the most technically gifted trombonist.
I added Frank in just because, if you want to count tone/sound as a part of technique, his sound that he got out of that trombone was insane.
We'd have to differentiate legit vs jazz as well. If we look at the legit side of the house and count repertoire as a factor, there are many of the greats who would not ever even attempt playing certain standard pieces live for an audience. The Bourgeois, for example, would eliminate probably over 90% of pro trombonists from even thinking about putting their name in the GOAT hat. Christian would basically play *any* legit piece if he was paid to by a venue. Joe Alessi I believe has this same technical ability but I think there are pieces that he can afford to say, no that piece is weird and I don't feel like playing it even though I can.
The list of trombonists who have the ability to premiere *any* legit work for trombone given 3-6 months is probably unbelievably short.
I added Frank in just because, if you want to count tone/sound as a part of technique, his sound that he got out of that trombone was insane.
We'd have to differentiate legit vs jazz as well. If we look at the legit side of the house and count repertoire as a factor, there are many of the greats who would not ever even attempt playing certain standard pieces live for an audience. The Bourgeois, for example, would eliminate probably over 90% of pro trombonists from even thinking about putting their name in the GOAT hat. Christian would basically play *any* legit piece if he was paid to by a venue. Joe Alessi I believe has this same technical ability but I think there are pieces that he can afford to say, no that piece is weird and I don't feel like playing it even though I can.
The list of trombonists who have the ability to premiere *any* legit work for trombone given 3-6 months is probably unbelievably short.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
Yes harrisonreed the list can be narrowed and that is my point. For me the first professional player I heard live when I was 18 was Watrous. Blew me away. I was a good player for my age but that doodle tonguing I heard that night was something I had to know more about. Over the last several years hearing Marshall Gilkes on recordings has been like WOW!! And before all of that hearing the Arthur Pryor recordings when I was at Yale was also amazing. So can I definitively state that either one of just these 3 that I mentioned is better than the other?? All 3 amazing yet different at the same time. Not to mention Rossolino and .............
- BrianJohnston
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Jul 11, 2020
Bill Watrous.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
I forgot about Wycliffe Gordon, and don’t think he has been mentioned in the thread. If so sorry for the repeat.
I put him up for GOAT because he has complete mastery of the horn. This masterclass starts with what seems like him just fooling around as he shows his “warm up”. But then he goes through everything bit by bit and explains why he did it and, even the most fanciful/technical improvisations, repeats the stuff pretty much note for note.
He is as inspiring as anyone on this list.
<YOUTUBE id="bvhpj226ZNY">https://youtu.be/bvhpj226ZNY?si=8T7UwnTSAVymaGay</YOUTUBE>
I put him up for GOAT because he has complete mastery of the horn. This masterclass starts with what seems like him just fooling around as he shows his “warm up”. But then he goes through everything bit by bit and explains why he did it and, even the most fanciful/technical improvisations, repeats the stuff pretty much note for note.
He is as inspiring as anyone on this list.
<YOUTUBE id="bvhpj226ZNY">https://youtu.be/bvhpj226ZNY?si=8T7UwnTSAVymaGay</YOUTUBE>
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Of all time? Or of time starting with recorded music? There are/were so many amazing trombonists that well never hear
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
So, reading this thread… I’ve had a pretty good run of listening to trombone goats live…
I’ve been on site when Charlie Vernon recorded Ewazen at MSU.
I’ve seen Christian L. perform Motorbike live in an arena. (And seen him at a couple of other halls including a twenty seat recital hall)
I’ve been working for the Band when Joe A. played a concerto with Brass Band.
Same with Marshall G.
And Scott Hartman.
And Alain Trudel.
And Wycliffe G. (Seriously take a listen[url]https://youtu.be/n3hgHG5lgOg )
I’ve not been working but seen JJ live; and Fred W., too.
I’ve seen CSO, DSO, and NYP live many times over the breadth of the last 30+ years and some pretty heavy rep….
But how to say who is “GOAT”?
I think the best way is honestly just watch them together when they get the chance to play with each other. Without fail, I see any of these greats and other brasses (trumpet, cornet, euph, and tuba) totally geek out about getting to listen with and play with each other. THEY love the opportunity to listen and play with each other. Just to learn and enjoy.
That said, of all these various performances above… I’d pay again to see many of these; even the ones I was paid to attend the first time.
Cheers,
Andy
I’ve been on site when Charlie Vernon recorded Ewazen at MSU.
I’ve seen Christian L. perform Motorbike live in an arena. (And seen him at a couple of other halls including a twenty seat recital hall)
I’ve been working for the Band when Joe A. played a concerto with Brass Band.
Same with Marshall G.
And Scott Hartman.
And Alain Trudel.
And Wycliffe G. (Seriously take a listen
I’ve not been working but seen JJ live; and Fred W., too.
I’ve seen CSO, DSO, and NYP live many times over the breadth of the last 30+ years and some pretty heavy rep….
But how to say who is “GOAT”?
I think the best way is honestly just watch them together when they get the chance to play with each other. Without fail, I see any of these greats and other brasses (trumpet, cornet, euph, and tuba) totally geek out about getting to listen with and play with each other. THEY love the opportunity to listen and play with each other. Just to learn and enjoy.
That said, of all these various performances above… I’d pay again to see many of these; even the ones I was paid to attend the first time.
Cheers,
Andy
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
You copped out. Gotta choose! <EMOJI seq="1f606" tseq="1f606">😆</EMOJI>