Shortened tuning slide
- Harpcat
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Jul 05, 2018
Hope this isn't a stupid question. What is the practical goal of shortening a tuning slide? Just curious.
Thanks!
Thanks!
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]To get a horn up to pitch.[/quote]
... if it's flat to start with!
... if it's flat to start with!
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
It's sometimes necessary if one wants to use extended slide positions - not only do you need to get the horn up to pitch, you need to get it significantly above pitch.
- TheSheriff
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Jul 16, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]It's sometimes necessary if one wants to use extended slide positions - not only do you need to get the horn up to pitch, you need to get it significantly above pitch.[/quote]
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Right. It was a somewhat common thing to do in the big band era so the player could use slide vibrato in an extended 1st position, especially those that used a slide vibrato that was above and below the pitch. Of course, you pretty much lost 7th position, but you lipped it down when needed. The players that used a slide vibrato that was only below the pitch had no real need to shorten their tuning slide so they left it alone.
I know an excellent trombonist that was taught this way from the get go as a young kid. All of his horns were pretty much pitched in B natural, that's how much of his tuning slide he would have cut.
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Right. It was a somewhat common thing to do in the big band era so the player could use slide vibrato in an extended 1st position, especially those that used a slide vibrato that was above and below the pitch. Of course, you pretty much lost 7th position, but you lipped it down when needed. The players that used a slide vibrato that was only below the pitch had no real need to shorten their tuning slide so they left it alone.
I know an excellent trombonist that was taught this way from the get go as a young kid. All of his horns were pretty much pitched in B natural, that's how much of his tuning slide he would have cut.
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- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Many American made trombones can barely play in tune in A440, especially if you want to play long on the slide. If you want to play in Europe, or even many US orchestras that are moving to A442, cutting it down becomes inevitable.
Before our friends from the UK chime in about not having to cut down 88Hs -- the design is already set up to play long on the slide. That's been the big bummer switching from the 88H to a Bach style design.
Before our friends from the UK chime in about not having to cut down 88Hs -- the design is already set up to play long on the slide. That's been the big bummer switching from the 88H to a Bach style design.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Many American made trombones can barely play in tune in A440, especially if you want to play long on the slide. If you want to play in Europe, or even many US orchestras that are moving to A442, cutting it down becomes inevitable.
Before our friends from the UK chime in about not having to cut down 88Hs -- the design is already set up to play long on the slide. That's been the big bummer switching from the 88H to a Bach style design.[/quote]
I wonder the degree to which that influenced the 88Hs popularity over there. 'American' style sound on a horn thats already capable of playing in tune over there at the right place/time.
Before our friends from the UK chime in about not having to cut down 88Hs -- the design is already set up to play long on the slide. That's been the big bummer switching from the 88H to a Bach style design.[/quote]
I wonder the degree to which that influenced the 88Hs popularity over there. 'American' style sound on a horn thats already capable of playing in tune over there at the right place/time.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Maybe unconsciously, but let's face it - Denis Wick had a big influence in and of himself ... and the 88H is just a fantastic design to begin with. A LOT more going for that horn than good choices on slide vs bell section length ! :)
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I’ve had to cut the tuning slide on every Bach horn I’ve owned, tenor and bass. I play off the bumpers. On my current Bach 42 and 50, the tuning slides are slightly less than 1/4” out at A=440, and all the way in for A=442. I haven’t had to cut the tuning slide on any other horns I’ve owned, Conns, Kings, or Edwards.
- bigbandbone
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Jan 17, 2019
I've been playing on short slided horns since 1971. You've got to match what the lead player is doing!
- u_00deker00
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Jul 02, 2025
Some time ago I saw a King 4B trombone that had a kind of spring in the first position that allowed it to play the high A. Is that what you mean shortened tuning slide?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="00deker00"]Some time ago I saw a King 4B trombone that had a kind of spring in the first position that allowed it to play the high A. Is that what you mean shortened tuning slide?[/quote]
No. Main slide springs are to allow you to adjust pitch in 1st position. The experience with Bach trombones was always to shorten the tuning slide because the instrument could not be tuned to A=440Hz otherwise (too flat).
No. Main slide springs are to allow you to adjust pitch in 1st position. The experience with Bach trombones was always to shorten the tuning slide because the instrument could not be tuned to A=440Hz otherwise (too flat).
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
It's for people who play flat.
- TromboneLAB
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Nov 08, 2024
The most common reason I've seen players have their tuning slide shortened is to facilitate playing with an extended first position that is long enough to allow the player to use slide vibrato in first position. Think Tommy Dorsey's In A Sentimental Mood.
I've been repairing trombones for 15 years and can't recall a single player needing it to be done to get the horn up to pitch, but that would be the only other reason I could imagine a player needing this done.
I've been repairing trombones for 15 years and can't recall a single player needing it to be done to get the horn up to pitch, but that would be the only other reason I could imagine a player needing this done.
- Blabberbucket
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Oct 09, 2022
Many folks playing Bach instruments have had their tuning slides shortened. The instruments are just a little longer than they need to be, especially if you're playing in places that are slightly colder than average.
Most modern instrument companies are producing handslides that are slightly shorter than standard Bach length, including Shires and Edwards. I have heard of some players switching to a shorter Edwards slide instead of having their tuning slide cut down.
Most modern instrument companies are producing handslides that are slightly shorter than standard Bach length, including Shires and Edwards. I have heard of some players switching to a shorter Edwards slide instead of having their tuning slide cut down.
- MahlerMusic
- Posts: 158
- Joined: May 07, 2019
Threads like this really hit home and make me realize how much of an amateur I still am.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="TromboneLAB"]The most common reason I've seen players have their tuning slide shortened is to facilitate playing with an extended first position that is long enough to allow the player to use slide vibrato in first position. Think Tommy Dorsey's In A Sentimental Mood.
I've been repairing trombones for 15 years and can't recall a single player needing it to be done to get the horn up to pitch, but that would be the only other reason I could imagine a player needing this done.[/quote]
Do some more valve conversions on old Bachs. The basses and large tenors were just built with tuning slides ~3/8ths-1/2” longer than current production. You may not NEED to cut them down, but your tuning slide will be almost all the way in all the time.
Cheers,
Andy
I've been repairing trombones for 15 years and can't recall a single player needing it to be done to get the horn up to pitch, but that would be the only other reason I could imagine a player needing this done.[/quote]
Do some more valve conversions on old Bachs. The basses and large tenors were just built with tuning slides ~3/8ths-1/2” longer than current production. You may not NEED to cut them down, but your tuning slide will be almost all the way in all the time.
Cheers,
Andy
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I find that many of my horns are a bit too long for me to tune at 440. Wasn't a problem on my old Conns, but my original Edwards T350 was too low - I had to get a short tuning slide from the company. My .508 bore also has a short tuning slide. My alto and my new T396AR both work with the original slide, but I play with them almost all the way in. I was worried that I was going to have to get another tuning slide for the T396AR, but things seemed to settle in after a couple of weeks playing it. I think I may have slowly adjusted my approach to the horn after a lot of years on the Thayer valves.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- TromboneLAB
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Nov 08, 2024
Yeah, Bach has done some weird things with their valve sections over the years. When you look closely, there are a variety of things that show where they cut corners.
As far as tuning slides go, or tuning in general, there are so many factors that affect it beyond equipment. Mouthpieces and facial structure, how each player moves air through the horn, what players like to do with first position, and many more things all contribute. There is also no universal ideal spot that the tuning slide should be positioned when playing. I've often hear rumors that your tuning slide should be pulled out to a specific distance and if more or less, you're playing the horn wrong. That a myth. The truth is that the horns are built short--or should be--so that you are required to pull the slides out to get to pitch. How far that is doesn't matter so long as you have room on either side to adjust as things change. After that, its just about listening and making sure you are playing in tune with yourself and those around you. My slides often feel more out than others and I've seen some players who barely needed to pull them out at all. Slides are always a few inches long and I've never seen an unaltered tuning slide not have enough room to adjust to any player. The only time the factory slide is an issue is when trying to play Trigger B below the staff on a standard tenor. There simply isn't enough real estate to make the horn long enough there, but King and others solved this with two tuning slides in their F sections.
At the end of the day, it comes down to listening, and the only real reason I've ever seen for anyone wanting to alter their tuning slide shorter is to extend 1st to about 1.5 so they can have full slide vibrato in first. To me, that isn't worth the trouble, but I don't judge. We all have our preferences and like what we get used to, so more power to you if that's what you like!
As far as tuning slides go, or tuning in general, there are so many factors that affect it beyond equipment. Mouthpieces and facial structure, how each player moves air through the horn, what players like to do with first position, and many more things all contribute. There is also no universal ideal spot that the tuning slide should be positioned when playing. I've often hear rumors that your tuning slide should be pulled out to a specific distance and if more or less, you're playing the horn wrong. That a myth. The truth is that the horns are built short--or should be--so that you are required to pull the slides out to get to pitch. How far that is doesn't matter so long as you have room on either side to adjust as things change. After that, its just about listening and making sure you are playing in tune with yourself and those around you. My slides often feel more out than others and I've seen some players who barely needed to pull them out at all. Slides are always a few inches long and I've never seen an unaltered tuning slide not have enough room to adjust to any player. The only time the factory slide is an issue is when trying to play Trigger B below the staff on a standard tenor. There simply isn't enough real estate to make the horn long enough there, but King and others solved this with two tuning slides in their F sections.
At the end of the day, it comes down to listening, and the only real reason I've ever seen for anyone wanting to alter their tuning slide shorter is to extend 1st to about 1.5 so they can have full slide vibrato in first. To me, that isn't worth the trouble, but I don't judge. We all have our preferences and like what we get used to, so more power to you if that's what you like!
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]Ok, but… Bachs are built too long[/quote]
Yes. Pretty simple, really
Yes. Pretty simple, really
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I've found most trombones are too long in the bell section. No idea why that tuning section is 3+ inches long.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]I’ve had to cut the tuning slide on every Bach horn I’ve owned, tenor and bass. I play off the bumpers. On my current Bach 42 and 50, the tuning slides are slightly less than 1/4” out at A=440, and all the way in for A=442. I haven’t had to cut the tuning slide on any other horns I’ve owned, Conns, Kings, or Edwards.[/quote]
Same here
Same here
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="79415" time="1551372017" user_id="172">
I’ve had to cut the tuning slide on every Bach horn I’ve owned, tenor and bass. I play off the bumpers. On my current Bach 42 and 50, the tuning slides are slightly less than 1/4” out at A=440, and all the way in for A=442. I haven’t had to cut the tuning slide on any other horns I’ve owned, Conns, Kings, or Edwards.[/quote]
Same here
</QUOTE>
Well, I have to add a caveat: I bought a used straight 36 a few months ago. I haven’t had to cut the tuning slide. Will wonders never cease?
I’ve had to cut the tuning slide on every Bach horn I’ve owned, tenor and bass. I play off the bumpers. On my current Bach 42 and 50, the tuning slides are slightly less than 1/4” out at A=440, and all the way in for A=442. I haven’t had to cut the tuning slide on any other horns I’ve owned, Conns, Kings, or Edwards.[/quote]
Same here
</QUOTE>
Well, I have to add a caveat: I bought a used straight 36 a few months ago. I haven’t had to cut the tuning slide. Will wonders never cease?
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
Honestly, it really depends on the person, and your mouthpiece, as well as what Bach was producing that day. I've never had a problem with Bach tenors being too long. All of mine have been out about an inch for as long as I can remember, even back when I was using a 5G and not a Laskey 59D.
- Gfunk
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Jan 10, 2022
[quote="harrisonreed"]I've found most trombones are too long in the bell section. No idea why that tuning section is 3+ inches long.[/quote]
When Bachs were designed almost a century ago mouthpieces were noticeably smaller than what we mostly use today.
I think that there’s an argument to be made that tuning slides being too long is for players that play too high on the pitch and need the tuning slide to compensate. In the amateur crowd that’s much more common, and I’d imagine most instrument companies end up selling more to amateurs than pros who play down on the pitch. IF it’s that thought out and intentional in that way
Though, I still wish I didn’t have to push my tuning slide all the way in order to play in tune at A=442. I’ve thought about cutting every horn I own (besides my 48H)
When Bachs were designed almost a century ago mouthpieces were noticeably smaller than what we mostly use today.
I think that there’s an argument to be made that tuning slides being too long is for players that play too high on the pitch and need the tuning slide to compensate. In the amateur crowd that’s much more common, and I’d imagine most instrument companies end up selling more to amateurs than pros who play down on the pitch. IF it’s that thought out and intentional in that way
Though, I still wish I didn’t have to push my tuning slide all the way in order to play in tune at A=442. I’ve thought about cutting every horn I own (besides my 48H)
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Don't forget that A=44O Hz has been the standard in the U.S. (and U.K.) for less than 100 years. So longer tuning slides provided more adjustability, especially to accommodate lower pitch (as used in the "old days.") [Europe has of course drifted higher - 442-444 Hz.] And the larger trombone mouthpieces used these days tend to subtly lower the pitch.
However this doesn't explain why Conns and Kings (especially 3Bs and 3B-Fs) never seem to have "long tuning slide" issues! [More recent designs?] :idk:
However this doesn't explain why Conns and Kings (especially 3Bs and 3B-Fs) never seem to have "long tuning slide" issues! [More recent designs?] :idk: