I feel bad for young trombonists, and for the trombone in general
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I'm lucky. When I was young there were still lots of opportunities for up and coming trombonists. Most of those opportunities are gone, now. Forever. For instance, I cut my teeth on road bands, like Buddy Rich, Al Hirt, Harry James, and Woody Herman. Not a single road band exists anymore. There were lots of studio gigs, and even if you weren't one of the top few players around you could get that work, especially albums and jingles. There were many more live music venues, and work even for bands you'd never heard of. Now all that work is gone, and it's not coming back.
I was lucky to come up in a time when trombone players could get really good. I'm going to make a controversial claim now, which is that trombonists aren't as good, overall, as they used to be. And that goes hand-in-hand with the lost opportunities. Back in the day you could get on the sub list for major orchestras, and wind up doing a lot of work with them. And it was a vehicle for rocketing up the chops. That's almost nonexistent now. In the jazz world, there were lots of opportunities to blow, and that let people get better at improvising. You get better at jazz when you're doing it every day at a high level. That requires lots of gigs (and the aforementioned road bands). We no longer have the kind of opportunities that created people like Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Urbie Green, and Bill Watrous. Those guys would never have become who they were without the opportunities that young players today will never have. The dramatic loss in opportunities means people don't rise as high, and the best no longer have the chance to get as good as their predecessors.
If you're not one of the few to land a tenured orchestral gig, your chances to make a reliable living as a performer are pretty much nonexistent, anymore. And that makes for fewer working trombonists. Fewer trombonists make a smaller pool of talent. A smaller pool of talent makes for declining proficiency, making trombonists overall worse, which keeps the downward cycle going.
This is all bad for the people coming up, and for the instrument overall. The career is going the way of the train fireman (and I'll bet a bunch of you don't even know what a train fireman is). It's depressing.
We all would have completely different careers if we had come of age in the 1940s and '50s, and even '60s. But today's environment is the near death knell for the trombone.
I was lucky to come up in a time when trombone players could get really good. I'm going to make a controversial claim now, which is that trombonists aren't as good, overall, as they used to be. And that goes hand-in-hand with the lost opportunities. Back in the day you could get on the sub list for major orchestras, and wind up doing a lot of work with them. And it was a vehicle for rocketing up the chops. That's almost nonexistent now. In the jazz world, there were lots of opportunities to blow, and that let people get better at improvising. You get better at jazz when you're doing it every day at a high level. That requires lots of gigs (and the aforementioned road bands). We no longer have the kind of opportunities that created people like Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Urbie Green, and Bill Watrous. Those guys would never have become who they were without the opportunities that young players today will never have. The dramatic loss in opportunities means people don't rise as high, and the best no longer have the chance to get as good as their predecessors.
If you're not one of the few to land a tenured orchestral gig, your chances to make a reliable living as a performer are pretty much nonexistent, anymore. And that makes for fewer working trombonists. Fewer trombonists make a smaller pool of talent. A smaller pool of talent makes for declining proficiency, making trombonists overall worse, which keeps the downward cycle going.
This is all bad for the people coming up, and for the instrument overall. The career is going the way of the train fireman (and I'll bet a bunch of you don't even know what a train fireman is). It's depressing.
We all would have completely different careers if we had come of age in the 1940s and '50s, and even '60s. But today's environment is the near death knell for the trombone.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
I'm gonna say that trombonists aren't as good as they used to be either.
They're better!
But yeah, there is a lot less work - it's been on a steady decline since the early 80s, really. Until there's more funding for the arts, not a lot is likely to change.
They're better!
But yeah, there is a lot less work - it's been on a steady decline since the early 80s, really. Until there's more funding for the arts, not a lot is likely to change.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
I’m with William……spend time at any trombone festival or convention and it is easy to determine that are many fine players (young players) that are among us. Many of these players are playing things routinely that were considered only-for-the-exceptional thirty or forty years ago.
However, Dana makes a very good point. The opportunities to play trombone for income are vanishing. I miss the old bands that would perpetually be on the road. In the late 70s (when I was in high school), it was common to have some big-name groups come to my area frequently. Seeing those performers was a source of great inspiration to me.
However, Dana makes a very good point. The opportunities to play trombone for income are vanishing. I miss the old bands that would perpetually be on the road. In the late 70s (when I was in high school), it was common to have some big-name groups come to my area frequently. Seeing those performers was a source of great inspiration to me.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I mean, it's not all doom and gloom ... Right?
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- CBlair
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Jun 15, 2019
"Until there's more funding for the arts, not a lot is likely to change."
An interesting statement. I expect that is true. Do you mean government funding for the arts? Private endowment support?
I am not aware that any of the touring big bands received any "funding" except directly or indirectly from a paying audience. Was there any other source of revenue?
For orchestras, on the other hand, there are patrons of the arts, endowing orchestra chairs and providing annual funding for specific purposes. In my (non-musical) occupation, I worked with many philanthropists and endowments. It is my observation that the source of those funds come from a generation that is expiring. Some endowments may actually continue and be able to keep pace with inflation. While there are occasional exceptions, new funding in the musical arts in particular appears to be waning.
Railroads survive without firemen and maybe in the future without on-board engineers. Changes in musical tastes, economics, and AI may leave instrumentalists behind, without consideration of how great live music used to be or the simple joy of performing with an ensemble.
An interesting statement. I expect that is true. Do you mean government funding for the arts? Private endowment support?
I am not aware that any of the touring big bands received any "funding" except directly or indirectly from a paying audience. Was there any other source of revenue?
For orchestras, on the other hand, there are patrons of the arts, endowing orchestra chairs and providing annual funding for specific purposes. In my (non-musical) occupation, I worked with many philanthropists and endowments. It is my observation that the source of those funds come from a generation that is expiring. Some endowments may actually continue and be able to keep pace with inflation. While there are occasional exceptions, new funding in the musical arts in particular appears to be waning.
Railroads survive without firemen and maybe in the future without on-board engineers. Changes in musical tastes, economics, and AI may leave instrumentalists behind, without consideration of how great live music used to be or the simple joy of performing with an ensemble.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Mmmh. For sure less opportunities especially in proportion with competition, which is ever increasing. I really don't think I agree with trombonists today not being as good, though. I think part of it is there is just a ton more people, so fewer stand out, perhaps. Looking at my own niche field, 30 to 50 years ago there were like 5 people at the top playing in every major project and on every recording. They are legends, and deservedly so. However, today there are literally dozens of players who are at least just as good as these legends were at their peak but are far less known, because we can't (and never will) make our presence as ubiquitous as theirs was, just because there's way more of us doing it.
Also, similarly, some of the playing I heard at ITF last month from younger players was just as good or better than I've ever heard on solo CDs from the big names, let alone in live performances. Some really mind-blowing quality. But they are or will be competing for attention not only with colleagues of their own generation, and with soloists of other more popular instruments, but also with the established big trombone names, who are still there.
Also, similarly, some of the playing I heard at ITF last month from younger players was just as good or better than I've ever heard on solo CDs from the big names, let alone in live performances. Some really mind-blowing quality. But they are or will be competing for attention not only with colleagues of their own generation, and with soloists of other more popular instruments, but also with the established big trombone names, who are still there.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Live music is doing just fine right now- even better than a few years ago, I think. People do not want robot music, by and large. They want things made by people, and when it happens in front of you, even better. I don't see that changing in a large way, and might even get better than it is at the current moment. It all comes down to people willing to pay for it.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
It is not unusual for many fine practitioners to come along after a few have pioneered a niche and revealed serious possibilities.
It's easier to refine something than to discover it.
It's easier to refine something than to discover it.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
In Germany (and probably middle Europe) the overall landscape/business has probably not dramatically declined, also because of many publicly funded orchestras and bands.
Also the level of playing is very very high. Not only can people technically manage the instrument, but there are also many with their own musical voice. So I would not really agree.
Also the level of playing is very very high. Not only can people technically manage the instrument, but there are also many with their own musical voice. So I would not really agree.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
How many posts do we want to have about this topic? (Too little gigs, too many degrees...). They're basically all the same discussion.
I don't agree at all. Yes, there were more touring bands and it was easier to join those and get yourself a fine reputation.
The playing is getting better every year, basically every day. There are so many crazy good young players out there and they're getting more. Which makes sense because the pedagogy has developed and gotten much better.
And there's still so much work out there. If you live in the middle of nowhere and have to drive hours to gigs of course that's tough. But if you are close to or in a metropol area, work is basically laying in front of you, just waiting to get done. You just need to know the right people (and they need to know you) and have a good network of connections..
Sure, there might be local differences and Germany might be easier than US. But overall I dont agree
I don't agree at all. Yes, there were more touring bands and it was easier to join those and get yourself a fine reputation.
The playing is getting better every year, basically every day. There are so many crazy good young players out there and they're getting more. Which makes sense because the pedagogy has developed and gotten much better.
And there's still so much work out there. If you live in the middle of nowhere and have to drive hours to gigs of course that's tough. But if you are close to or in a metropol area, work is basically laying in front of you, just waiting to get done. You just need to know the right people (and they need to know you) and have a good network of connections..
Sure, there might be local differences and Germany might be easier than US. But overall I dont agree
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="EriKon"]How many posts do we want to have about this topic? (Too little gigs, too many degrees...). They're basically all the same discussion.
I don't agree at all. Yes, there were more touring bands and it was easier to join those and get yourself a fine reputation.
The playing is getting better every year, basically every day. There are so many crazy good young players out there and they're getting more. Which makes sense because the pedagogy has developed and gotten much better.
And there's still so much work out there. If you live in the middle of nowhere and have to drive hours to gigs of course that's tough. But if you are close to or in a metropol area, work is basically laying in front of you, just waiting to get done. You just need to know the right people (and they need to know you) and have a good network of connections..
Sure, there might be local differences and Germany might be easier than US. But overall I dont agree[/quote]
I love your post, and I hope it's true everywhere! It's not what I'm seeing and hearing here in the U.S., but boy do I hope you've nailed it. :)
I don't agree at all. Yes, there were more touring bands and it was easier to join those and get yourself a fine reputation.
The playing is getting better every year, basically every day. There are so many crazy good young players out there and they're getting more. Which makes sense because the pedagogy has developed and gotten much better.
And there's still so much work out there. If you live in the middle of nowhere and have to drive hours to gigs of course that's tough. But if you are close to or in a metropol area, work is basically laying in front of you, just waiting to get done. You just need to know the right people (and they need to know you) and have a good network of connections..
Sure, there might be local differences and Germany might be easier than US. But overall I dont agree[/quote]
I love your post, and I hope it's true everywhere! It's not what I'm seeing and hearing here in the U.S., but boy do I hope you've nailed it. :)
- mgladdish
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Oct 10, 2021
Yeah, I don't agree either.
I'm also certain the level of playing is higher now than it's ever been.
The music we love is not as popular as it was then, and the opportunities for playing it to broad audiences has been absolutely decimated, but the players are still there and better than ever. Marshall Gilkes and Elliot Mason to name just two are playing stuff that would have been unthinkable for those greats you mention.
I know it's easy to look back with rose tinted glasses at what has been and what we've lost, but the future's bright and the good news is it's yet to come.
I'm also certain the level of playing is higher now than it's ever been.
The music we love is not as popular as it was then, and the opportunities for playing it to broad audiences has been absolutely decimated, but the players are still there and better than ever. Marshall Gilkes and Elliot Mason to name just two are playing stuff that would have been unthinkable for those greats you mention.
I know it's easy to look back with rose tinted glasses at what has been and what we've lost, but the future's bright and the good news is it's yet to come.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I think we need to adjust our definition of what constitutes being a professional musician. Back when Dana and I were kids you could easily get a job as a trombonist. After all, most TV studios had resident big bands, as well as many TV and radio shows. Taste in music back then was more toward large ensembles. Now popular music involves electronic instruments; particularly guitars, bass guitars, and keyboards. If you want to make a living as a musician you need to play one of them or drums. Or you need to branch out into one of the peripheral activities like arranging, sound engineering, repair, etc.
Playing trombone is cool, but not too many of us can do it full time.
Playing trombone is cool, but not too many of us can do it full time.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
Bruce, that is just not true. You can very well be a full-time professional trombone player and make a living with it even with freelancing. And you don't even have to play like Marshall Gilkes or Joe Alessi.
The most important skills for that are being reliable, easy to work with, and being a solid(!) player with some stylistic versatility. You don't need to be outstanding or extraordinary.
Will you become a millionaire this way? Likely not. But it's definitely enough to make a living and do what you love for making a living.
Also in general, let the young guys do what they want to do and figure out their own way. I see very little young players writing/commenting in here, so I might speak for myself, but over here, everyone who has been serious about trombone playing figured out their way of making a living with music in general and the trombone in particular.
Not wanting to sound disrespectful, but maybe some folks in here should not bother so much about (poor) young trombonists without being one?
The most important skills for that are being reliable, easy to work with, and being a solid(!) player with some stylistic versatility. You don't need to be outstanding or extraordinary.
Will you become a millionaire this way? Likely not. But it's definitely enough to make a living and do what you love for making a living.
Also in general, let the young guys do what they want to do and figure out their own way. I see very little young players writing/commenting in here, so I might speak for myself, but over here, everyone who has been serious about trombone playing figured out their way of making a living with music in general and the trombone in particular.
Not wanting to sound disrespectful, but maybe some folks in here should not bother so much about (poor) young trombonists without being one?
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
As he doesn't want to explicitly say it himself: Erik is one of those who (as far as I know) make an okay/good living play the trombone AND definitely a very impressive and versatile (and comparably young) player! His generation/half a generation younger than myself certainly does not have to hide.
It was probably meant to provoke, but parts of this thread have a taste of "früher war alles besser" (~everything was better in the past).
It was probably meant to provoke, but parts of this thread have a taste of "früher war alles besser" (~everything was better in the past).
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
I've lost my post twice because I take too long between writing it out and clicking submit. Probably for the best, the first one was really long.
The quality of musicians these days is probably higher than ever. More competition of fewer gigs is going to lead to even more amazing playing. I think most of our observations reflect this, so I disagree with that premise.
What term best describes what you do, "musician" or "trombonist?" Imagine how silly it would be to say, "I'm not a musician, I'm a TROMBONIST!"
Sure, the music business is quite different today than it was when I first got started performing professionally and I was hearing some of the same cautionary tales back then. Even so, I've been able to be "successful" as a professional musician, partly because I'm interested in lots of different things and define "success" myself. I could (and did in my other posts) list a number of different things that professional musicians do that don't involve blowing a single note.
If you feel sorry for a young trombonist you can always hire some to sub for you or recommend them for gigs.
The quality of musicians these days is probably higher than ever. More competition of fewer gigs is going to lead to even more amazing playing. I think most of our observations reflect this, so I disagree with that premise.
What term best describes what you do, "musician" or "trombonist?" Imagine how silly it would be to say, "I'm not a musician, I'm a TROMBONIST!"
Sure, the music business is quite different today than it was when I first got started performing professionally and I was hearing some of the same cautionary tales back then. Even so, I've been able to be "successful" as a professional musician, partly because I'm interested in lots of different things and define "success" myself. I could (and did in my other posts) list a number of different things that professional musicians do that don't involve blowing a single note.
If you feel sorry for a young trombonist you can always hire some to sub for you or recommend them for gigs.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
The sense of the shrinking pie is widespread in instrumental music.
You will find many commentaries and factual findings today about the diminishing position of guitar playing.
Fewer taking it up, fewer interested at all. Forty years ago rock bands with guitars and other visible instrumentalists as integral characters were common in pop music. Now it is mostly about vocalists with anonymous (invisible?) backing bands.
There is no guitar god like an Eddie Van Halen for kids to see and know guitar-playing can be cool.
Of course the trombone situation is 10x more dire... but imagine what this topic is like on an oboe forum.
You will find many commentaries and factual findings today about the diminishing position of guitar playing.
Fewer taking it up, fewer interested at all. Forty years ago rock bands with guitars and other visible instrumentalists as integral characters were common in pop music. Now it is mostly about vocalists with anonymous (invisible?) backing bands.
There is no guitar god like an Eddie Van Halen for kids to see and know guitar-playing can be cool.
Of course the trombone situation is 10x more dire... but imagine what this topic is like on an oboe forum.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
I dunno, the 3rd year playing bass trombone in my section a couple weekends back, hustled in just in time for sound check to play his second of three gigs that day. The young brass players around here do a ton of salsa as a base of their earnings and then can do anything else.
And yes, they play really well. We had a section feature where we all had some jazz to do. I’m glad I went first. I ripped what I thought was a pretty good solo, but then the kids just took off. It was fantastic. Just to put it in perspective these students are not even studying jazz intensively.
And yes, they play really well. We had a section feature where we all had some jazz to do. I’m glad I went first. I ripped what I thought was a pretty good solo, but then the kids just took off. It was fantastic. Just to put it in perspective these students are not even studying jazz intensively.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]There is no guitar god like an Eddie Van Halen for kids to see and know guitar-playing can be cool.[/quote]
Sure there is, his name is Eddie Van Halen.
Kids still pick up guitar because they think it's cool, and they can watch tons of live Van Halen concerts and listen to the records for free. They can and they do, and as a result there are thousands of young guitarists who can play everything Eddie did and way beyond.
Obviously the numbers aren't as high as when rock was at the apex of popular music. But Guitar Center still exists for a reason. Tons of kids still pick up the guitar because they think it's cool. They're watching and listening to the guitar legends of yore, alongside modern masters such as Maximillian Newman, Sarah Longfield, or Ichika Nito.
I don't think guitar will ever not be a popular instrument. The guitar market is enormous, at a scale that no wind instrument could dream of. Part of that is just due to practicality...you can walk out of any Guitar Center with a nice new entry-level guitar for a couple hundred bucks.
Trombone is a lot more niche, but we do have more amazing players than ever.
Sure there is, his name is Eddie Van Halen.
Kids still pick up guitar because they think it's cool, and they can watch tons of live Van Halen concerts and listen to the records for free. They can and they do, and as a result there are thousands of young guitarists who can play everything Eddie did and way beyond.
Obviously the numbers aren't as high as when rock was at the apex of popular music. But Guitar Center still exists for a reason. Tons of kids still pick up the guitar because they think it's cool. They're watching and listening to the guitar legends of yore, alongside modern masters such as Maximillian Newman, Sarah Longfield, or Ichika Nito.
I don't think guitar will ever not be a popular instrument. The guitar market is enormous, at a scale that no wind instrument could dream of. Part of that is just due to practicality...you can walk out of any Guitar Center with a nice new entry-level guitar for a couple hundred bucks.
Trombone is a lot more niche, but we do have more amazing players than ever.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]... modern masters such as Maximillian Newman, Sarah Longfield, or Ichika Nito...[/quote]
I had not heard of any of those people so I looked one up.
Maximilian Newman has six videos on[url=https://www.youtube.com/@MaximillianNewman/videos]his YouTube channel, only one of which was made less than four years ago.
He has less than four thousand followers, only two of his videos have more than 10K views.
I have[url=https://youtu.be/nKRDqrBUgLM]a video of a flat tire on my channel that has 10x the views of his most-watched Youtube. A flat tire.
If that is guitar success today, the thing is doomed.
I had not heard of any of those people so I looked one up.
Maximilian Newman has six videos on
He has less than four thousand followers, only two of his videos have more than 10K views.
I have
If that is guitar success today, the thing is doomed.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]I had not heard of any of those people so I looked one up.
Maximilian Newman has six videos on[url=https://www.youtube.com/@MaximillianNewman/videos]his YouTube channel, only one of which was made less than four years ago.[/quote]
Like Eddie Van Halen did, Max plays in a band. Max's band is called The Main Squeeze. They tour every year (usually national, sometimes international), and they pack venues wherever they go. I would put Max's guitar solos up with any legend you can name, and the crowds agree. The Main Squeeze also posts on YouTube, and their most popular video has 82 million views. Most of their most popular videos are ones that feature long guitar solos from Max.
Meanwhile, Ichika Nito is primarily a guitar YouTuber. He has 2.8 million subscribers.
Here's some other guitar YouTubers for you:
Jared Dines - just shy of 3 million subscribers (most-viewed video: 18 million views)
Rob Scallon - 2.6 million subscribers (most-viewed video: 30 million views)
Stevie T - just shy of 4 million subscribers (most-viewed video: 20 million views)
Just because you are completely uneducated on the current state of guitar playing (and yet talking about it as if you aren't) does not mean that it does not exist.
Maximilian Newman has six videos on
Like Eddie Van Halen did, Max plays in a band. Max's band is called The Main Squeeze. They tour every year (usually national, sometimes international), and they pack venues wherever they go. I would put Max's guitar solos up with any legend you can name, and the crowds agree. The Main Squeeze also posts on YouTube, and their most popular video has 82 million views. Most of their most popular videos are ones that feature long guitar solos from Max.
Meanwhile, Ichika Nito is primarily a guitar YouTuber. He has 2.8 million subscribers.
Here's some other guitar YouTubers for you:
Jared Dines - just shy of 3 million subscribers (most-viewed video: 18 million views)
Rob Scallon - 2.6 million subscribers (most-viewed video: 30 million views)
Stevie T - just shy of 4 million subscribers (most-viewed video: 20 million views)
Just because you are completely uneducated on the current state of guitar playing (and yet talking about it as if you aren't) does not mean that it does not exist.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="284375" time="1756348097" user_id="136">
... modern masters such as Maximillian Newman, Sarah Longfield, or Ichika Nito...[/quote]
I had not heard of any of those people so I looked one up.
Maximilian Newman has six videos on[url=https://www.youtube.com/@MaximillianNewman/videos]his YouTube channel, only one of which was made less than four years ago.
He has less than four thousand followers, only two of his videos have more than 10K views.
I have[url=https://youtu.be/nKRDqrBUgLM]a video of a flat tire on my channel that has 10x the views of his most-watched Youtube. A flat tire.
If that is guitar success today, the thing is doomed.
</QUOTE>
What an odd yardstick for success. You do realise music careers primarily happen <U>not</U> on YouTube, right?
... modern masters such as Maximillian Newman, Sarah Longfield, or Ichika Nito...[/quote]
I had not heard of any of those people so I looked one up.
Maximilian Newman has six videos on
He has less than four thousand followers, only two of his videos have more than 10K views.
I have
If that is guitar success today, the thing is doomed.
</QUOTE>
What an odd yardstick for success. You do realise music careers primarily happen <U>not</U> on YouTube, right?
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
[quote="robcat2075"]The sense of the shrinking pie is widespread in instrumental music.
You will find many commentaries and factual findings today about the diminishing position of guitar playing.
Fewer taking it up, fewer interested at all. Forty years ago rock bands with guitars and other visible instrumentalists as integral characters were common in pop music. Now it is mostly about vocalists with anonymous (invisible?) backing bands.
There is no guitar god like an Eddie Van Halen for kids to see and know guitar-playing can be cool.
Of course the trombone situation is 10x more dire... but imagine what this topic is like on an oboe forum.[/quote]
Ever heard of Joe Bonamassa, Steve Lukather or Angus Young? They might be older but still rocking every stage they appear on. And they definitely don't play in front of 10-100 people, but more like 10.000s of folks. And music doesn't vanish. It is preserved on albums on concert videos and so much more. Everything is accessible on-demand, whenever you want.
Can we please stop with that weird "it used to be better" attitude? It's just not true. Things have changed, but not only to become worse. A lot has changed for the better, too.
And maybe we shouldn't compare apples (guitars) with pears (trombones) just because they're both fruits.
You will find many commentaries and factual findings today about the diminishing position of guitar playing.
Fewer taking it up, fewer interested at all. Forty years ago rock bands with guitars and other visible instrumentalists as integral characters were common in pop music. Now it is mostly about vocalists with anonymous (invisible?) backing bands.
There is no guitar god like an Eddie Van Halen for kids to see and know guitar-playing can be cool.
Of course the trombone situation is 10x more dire... but imagine what this topic is like on an oboe forum.[/quote]
Ever heard of Joe Bonamassa, Steve Lukather or Angus Young? They might be older but still rocking every stage they appear on. And they definitely don't play in front of 10-100 people, but more like 10.000s of folks. And music doesn't vanish. It is preserved on albums on concert videos and so much more. Everything is accessible on-demand, whenever you want.
Can we please stop with that weird "it used to be better" attitude? It's just not true. Things have changed, but not only to become worse. A lot has changed for the better, too.
And maybe we shouldn't compare apples (guitars) with pears (trombones) just because they're both fruits.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
You can also look at anything in the metal direction. Pretty guitar-heavy music with some great musicians - if you like the music or not. And yes, they do have a really big following. Just saying Kirk Hammett...
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I knew we'd get a post from somebody like Eric.
First, he is in Europe where there is much more Government support for arts resulting in more jobs for musicians of most stripes.
Second, I (and probably Dana) never said there are no jobs. Just fewer than there used to be. How much call is there today for a Farrier (horse shoer)? Certainly a lot less than there was 150 years ago, although we still need a few.
Who knows what will be the form of popular music 50 years from now? Who knows how much Government support for the arts will be? We can make conjectures, but banking your future on them can be a gamble.
First, he is in Europe where there is much more Government support for arts resulting in more jobs for musicians of most stripes.
Second, I (and probably Dana) never said there are no jobs. Just fewer than there used to be. How much call is there today for a Farrier (horse shoer)? Certainly a lot less than there was 150 years ago, although we still need a few.
Who knows what will be the form of popular music 50 years from now? Who knows how much Government support for the arts will be? We can make conjectures, but banking your future on them can be a gamble.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
This is a needlessly depressing thread, all gloom and doom, and I disagree with the general premise, but to play devil's advocate, I would say that we are forgetting basic numbers here. The global population in 1960 was around 3 billion people. A huge proportion of that population would have been in Asia (nearly 700 million in China alone, despite the great famine). So from the perspective of the West, in the 60's not only was the trombone and instrumental music really quite popular, but there were also significantly less people living in the West. So that music was really really popular. And you can be certain that the 700 million people starving in 1960 China, nearly 1/3 of the global population, probably couldn't have cared less about jazz and the trombone.
Fast forward to today, 8 billion people. It is indeed difficult to find jazz fans, despite the great increase of people in the West. China is at 1.4 billion people now, and I am almost certain a much greater number of people there are interested in jazz and the trombone now.
So perhaps the jobs exist, but they are just in Asia now.
Another way of thinking about this:
It is much easier to influence the music consumption of 180 million US citizens in 1960 with 3 broadcast stations than it is to do the same thing to 340 million and 500+ stations. Musical taste might have just been a matter of what the execs put on the air waves.
Fast forward to today, 8 billion people. It is indeed difficult to find jazz fans, despite the great increase of people in the West. China is at 1.4 billion people now, and I am almost certain a much greater number of people there are interested in jazz and the trombone now.
So perhaps the jobs exist, but they are just in Asia now.
Another way of thinking about this:
It is much easier to influence the music consumption of 180 million US citizens in 1960 with 3 broadcast stations than it is to do the same thing to 340 million and 500+ stations. Musical taste might have just been a matter of what the execs put on the air waves.
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Don't know if I'd call this the definitive answer, but I DO recommend Kurt Dietrich's 'Jazz Bones: The World of Jazz Trombone'.
Dietrich's comments about theater orchestras caught my attention. "Marketing 101: Substitute Products: came to mind.
My home town used to have two large-screen movie theaters. I believe both had orchestras. The town had a well known concert band from one of the factories, and other musical entertainment organizations.
Now they have no large-screen venues. There is one small-screen place tucked into a corner of a shopping center.
Between cable, Fios, cell phones, etc. there are too many substitutes for the big screens to survive in that city.
I do believe that the trombone segment of the pie has decreased since before World War II.
But I also believe the pie has grown.
It has ALWAYS been tough to find work as a trombonist. I think my time as a symphony player was FAR easier than that of any sackbut player. Max can doubtless correct any misconception in that statement :)
EVERY generation of trombone player has had to look for new market opportunities. I am filled with admiration at the way folks like Erik Konerz and Reginal Chapman make their opportunities. They think in ways that surprise and delight me, both business-wise and musically.
I don't feel bad for them. I admire them, and feel anxious for younger ones just starting out. I encourage them, but try to temper that with the realities Dietrich points out.
Dietrich's comments about theater orchestras caught my attention. "Marketing 101: Substitute Products: came to mind.
My home town used to have two large-screen movie theaters. I believe both had orchestras. The town had a well known concert band from one of the factories, and other musical entertainment organizations.
Now they have no large-screen venues. There is one small-screen place tucked into a corner of a shopping center.
Between cable, Fios, cell phones, etc. there are too many substitutes for the big screens to survive in that city.
I do believe that the trombone segment of the pie has decreased since before World War II.
But I also believe the pie has grown.
It has ALWAYS been tough to find work as a trombonist. I think my time as a symphony player was FAR easier than that of any sackbut player. Max can doubtless correct any misconception in that statement :)
EVERY generation of trombone player has had to look for new market opportunities. I am filled with admiration at the way folks like Erik Konerz and Reginal Chapman make their opportunities. They think in ways that surprise and delight me, both business-wise and musically.
I don't feel bad for them. I admire them, and feel anxious for younger ones just starting out. I encourage them, but try to temper that with the realities Dietrich points out.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
Harrison has given this an interesting flavor.
If we put the US aside (only a small minority of the world, as is Germany and other European countries).
I am pretty sure there are many many more orchestras and (big) bands playing "western" music involving the trombone on a high level in Asia, but also South America and Africa than some decades ago.
The opportunities are there, but they may have moved.
Maybe the original sentiment is correct and correctly describing the decline in the US, but that is not a global perspective.
If we put the US aside (only a small minority of the world, as is Germany and other European countries).
I am pretty sure there are many many more orchestras and (big) bands playing "western" music involving the trombone on a high level in Asia, but also South America and Africa than some decades ago.
The opportunities are there, but they may have moved.
Maybe the original sentiment is correct and correctly describing the decline in the US, but that is not a global perspective.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Heck, there is a great big band in the middle of Mongolia with a great trombone section and awesome musicians. Japan's big bands are some of the best in the world.
More and more I am seeing videos of Chinese orchestras and Chinese trombone soloists and I am always impressed.
Go to Seoul or Tokyo and it will change your perspective of the center of gravity of the world -- you'll feel it.
More and more I am seeing videos of Chinese orchestras and Chinese trombone soloists and I am always impressed.
Go to Seoul or Tokyo and it will change your perspective of the center of gravity of the world -- you'll feel it.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
There has never been a better time to be an unemployed trombonist!
I ran a big band in Chicago together with Bob Ojeda (long-time road warrier with Kenton and Basie), and he would tell me old war stories about going from paying gig to paying gig, on a weekday, back in the 60s.
A lot more practical opportunities in the US to hone your craft back then while making money, a learning by doing for commercial musicians, with hardly a dime from the government to keep things afloat, more rungs in the musical ladder.
I ran a big band in Chicago together with Bob Ojeda (long-time road warrier with Kenton and Basie), and he would tell me old war stories about going from paying gig to paying gig, on a weekday, back in the 60s.
A lot more practical opportunities in the US to hone your craft back then while making money, a learning by doing for commercial musicians, with hardly a dime from the government to keep things afloat, more rungs in the musical ladder.
- tromboneVan
- Posts: 270
- Joined: May 21, 2019
<YOUTUBE id="ZMYNCYrXzuQ" t="1">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMYNCYrXzuQ&t=1s</YOUTUBE>
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
I think:
- there are many technically amazing young trombone players (under age 25), and some are actually musical. Let's face it; equipment is better than it used to be, people can get mouthpieces that will actually work for them, and there are some solid teaching methods from many excellent teachers in all genres of music
- the future of live music will continue to be excellent seeing as more and more people are realizing that music is best made and best experienced by hearing live musicians in live concerts. There is, and will continue to be, a backlash against AI generated music and corporate control of the arts. People are hungry for real experiences. The best thinkers agree on this, and it's starting to happen. Some trombonists that are living in cities that have good B'Way type theatre work will continue to get a lot of work. Sure, there are some big cities that don't actually have a culture of supporting the arts due to too much corporate dominance in the arts in which the corporate sponsors have really cut back on any arts support, and in doing so have persuaded governments to cut support for the arts and many orchestras, theatres, clubs, have had to close their doors. (many examples of this especially in North America, which means US and Canada which has seen major cutbacks and slashing of orchestras/operas/theatres in both countries due to both poor governmental support and less philanthropic support from a new breed of 'greedy corporatists' who don't want to pay any taxes nor want to support the arts.)
- there really aren't any circuses, ice shows, corporate sales shows, etc. any more that use horn sections. If you're a rhythm section player, things are always great. (some of the busiest trombone players I know do as much or more work as piano players, synth players, or bass players)
- cruise ship work is still there if you're able to get it. (..and can actually stand it)
- Latin music...Yes! Trombone players are actual heroes in Central and South American countries!
- as trombonists, especially, we're going to have to create a lot of musical opportunities for ourselves. The phone's not going to ring off the hook! This is good!... becasue then we all become more than just 'trombone players'....we have to become arrangers/composers, band leaders, teachers, etc.
I play with and arrange/compose the horn section music for an R&B/Funk/Soul/RocknRoll band. People come up to us and say how it's so great to hear real live horns (again!). They're thrilled to hear real people making music they can actually move to. An experience!
I have a group that consists of Trpt, Bone, 2 saxes, Vibes/percussion. Original music people are curious about. Working on a big concert for next spring. Not a big 'money-maker', but it has to be done. No one else is going to do it for me. People that hear it like it...a mix of jazz/art/classical/art/funk/latin/w-improvisations as well.
People still come to hear the 'museum big band swing' music. Some people are playing it all the time, depending on where you live and what kind of clientele is around to still appreciate it. For younger musicians, the museum music big band music will actually become 'new' again.... the cycle of what's old is new again. The older musicians need to start breaking in the younger musicians and get them to realize how it should actually be played and everything else that goes along with that scene. The big bands need to 'apprentice' the younger players (...otherwise they'll turn into mediocre sounding big-bore trombone sections with no sense of the subtle stylings that make the music swing and make it all sound the way it's supposed to sound. Like, I was actually told and strongly hinted to the fact that I better get a King 2B if I actually wanted to work back in the day when I lived in Toronto. Why don't us 'older players' actually lay down the law and tell younger 'bone players the same thing these days?)
It's coming down to whether we want real ART to survive. (and we can also present the trombone while we're at it)
If we do, we have to become part of the solution.
Create some ART....revive the ARTS....get it out there.. keep the trombone in the public eye....even if we have to spend some of our own money presenting music in the way that Beethoven had to!
So, I don't really feel too sad for today's young trombone players. The artistic ones will thrive and survive. There should be good days ahead. Things can't get any worse, especially here in North America. Nowhere to go but up!
- there are many technically amazing young trombone players (under age 25), and some are actually musical. Let's face it; equipment is better than it used to be, people can get mouthpieces that will actually work for them, and there are some solid teaching methods from many excellent teachers in all genres of music
- the future of live music will continue to be excellent seeing as more and more people are realizing that music is best made and best experienced by hearing live musicians in live concerts. There is, and will continue to be, a backlash against AI generated music and corporate control of the arts. People are hungry for real experiences. The best thinkers agree on this, and it's starting to happen. Some trombonists that are living in cities that have good B'Way type theatre work will continue to get a lot of work. Sure, there are some big cities that don't actually have a culture of supporting the arts due to too much corporate dominance in the arts in which the corporate sponsors have really cut back on any arts support, and in doing so have persuaded governments to cut support for the arts and many orchestras, theatres, clubs, have had to close their doors. (many examples of this especially in North America, which means US and Canada which has seen major cutbacks and slashing of orchestras/operas/theatres in both countries due to both poor governmental support and less philanthropic support from a new breed of 'greedy corporatists' who don't want to pay any taxes nor want to support the arts.)
- there really aren't any circuses, ice shows, corporate sales shows, etc. any more that use horn sections. If you're a rhythm section player, things are always great. (some of the busiest trombone players I know do as much or more work as piano players, synth players, or bass players)
- cruise ship work is still there if you're able to get it. (..and can actually stand it)
- Latin music...Yes! Trombone players are actual heroes in Central and South American countries!
- as trombonists, especially, we're going to have to create a lot of musical opportunities for ourselves. The phone's not going to ring off the hook! This is good!... becasue then we all become more than just 'trombone players'....we have to become arrangers/composers, band leaders, teachers, etc.
I play with and arrange/compose the horn section music for an R&B/Funk/Soul/RocknRoll band. People come up to us and say how it's so great to hear real live horns (again!). They're thrilled to hear real people making music they can actually move to. An experience!
I have a group that consists of Trpt, Bone, 2 saxes, Vibes/percussion. Original music people are curious about. Working on a big concert for next spring. Not a big 'money-maker', but it has to be done. No one else is going to do it for me. People that hear it like it...a mix of jazz/art/classical/art/funk/latin/w-improvisations as well.
People still come to hear the 'museum big band swing' music. Some people are playing it all the time, depending on where you live and what kind of clientele is around to still appreciate it. For younger musicians, the museum music big band music will actually become 'new' again.... the cycle of what's old is new again. The older musicians need to start breaking in the younger musicians and get them to realize how it should actually be played and everything else that goes along with that scene. The big bands need to 'apprentice' the younger players (...otherwise they'll turn into mediocre sounding big-bore trombone sections with no sense of the subtle stylings that make the music swing and make it all sound the way it's supposed to sound. Like, I was actually told and strongly hinted to the fact that I better get a King 2B if I actually wanted to work back in the day when I lived in Toronto. Why don't us 'older players' actually lay down the law and tell younger 'bone players the same thing these days?)
It's coming down to whether we want real ART to survive. (and we can also present the trombone while we're at it)
If we do, we have to become part of the solution.
Create some ART....revive the ARTS....get it out there.. keep the trombone in the public eye....even if we have to spend some of our own money presenting music in the way that Beethoven had to!
So, I don't really feel too sad for today's young trombone players. The artistic ones will thrive and survive. There should be good days ahead. Things can't get any worse, especially here in North America. Nowhere to go but up!
- peteedwards
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Apr 09, 2018
[quote="Cmillar"]I think:
- there are many technically amazing young trombone players (under age 25), and some are actually musical. Let's face it; equipment is better than it used to be, people can get mouthpieces that will actually work for them, and there are some solid teaching methods from many excellent teachers in all genres of music
[/quote]
not mentioned: listening to recorded music to learn through osmosis. For some this is as or more important than having a good teacher.
Today's musicians are extremely lucky to have free or nearly free access to nearly unlimited recordings, videos, etc.
In the past you actually had to leave your room & pay money to seek out listening experiences, and unless you lived near a big city, they were slim pickins indeed.
- there are many technically amazing young trombone players (under age 25), and some are actually musical. Let's face it; equipment is better than it used to be, people can get mouthpieces that will actually work for them, and there are some solid teaching methods from many excellent teachers in all genres of music
[/quote]
not mentioned: listening to recorded music to learn through osmosis. For some this is as or more important than having a good teacher.
Today's musicians are extremely lucky to have free or nearly free access to nearly unlimited recordings, videos, etc.
In the past you actually had to leave your room & pay money to seek out listening experiences, and unless you lived near a big city, they were slim pickins indeed.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Well, I guess I was wrong! I'm relieved to hear that the situation for young players is rosy, and that they are better players than previous generations. I won't feel bad for them anymore. In fact, I'm happy to hear that they're fantastic players who can all have great playing careers. So I guess there aren't too many performance degree programs, there are plenty of gigs, modern instruments are better, and it's overall better now for trombonists than in the past.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly didn't say everything was rosy.
It's different. Nothing we can really do about it, but younger *musicians* are stronger players than ever and they will find ways to continue to make interesting music. Some of them will even be able to eke out a living doing it.
It's different. Nothing we can really do about it, but younger *musicians* are stronger players than ever and they will find ways to continue to make interesting music. Some of them will even be able to eke out a living doing it.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Wilktone"]I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly didn't say everything was rosy.
It's different. Nothing we can really do about it, but younger *musicians* are stronger players than ever and they will find ways to continue to make interesting music. Some of them will even be able to eke out a living doing it.[/quote]
This is exactly how I feel. I just hope we can get a government that believes in subsidizing the arts so that we can have the orchestras, operas, ballets, etc. that can give our young trombone players an opportunity to perform.
Things will never be the way they were 50 years ago, 100 years ago, or 150 years ago. So we have to find new ways to be professional musicians. In the meantime, do something else and enjoy playing trombone.
It's different. Nothing we can really do about it, but younger *musicians* are stronger players than ever and they will find ways to continue to make interesting music. Some of them will even be able to eke out a living doing it.[/quote]
This is exactly how I feel. I just hope we can get a government that believes in subsidizing the arts so that we can have the orchestras, operas, ballets, etc. that can give our young trombone players an opportunity to perform.
Things will never be the way they were 50 years ago, 100 years ago, or 150 years ago. So we have to find new ways to be professional musicians. In the meantime, do something else and enjoy playing trombone.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]Well, I guess I was wrong! I'm relieved to hear that the situation for young players is rosy, and that they are better players than previous generations. I won't feel bad for them anymore. In fact, I'm happy to hear that they're fantastic players who can all have great playing careers. So I guess there aren't too many performance degree programs, there are plenty of gigs, modern instruments are better, and it's overall better now for trombonists than in the past.[/quote]
To be fair, there's a pretty wide margin between "rosy" and the utter gloom of some the posts here. Reality (and what those of us who actually are working as professional trombone players have described in this thread) is certainly not rosy, but it's also not complete despair. It's somewhere in between.
To be fair, there's a pretty wide margin between "rosy" and the utter gloom of some the posts here. Reality (and what those of us who actually are working as professional trombone players have described in this thread) is certainly not rosy, but it's also not complete despair. It's somewhere in between.