Leadpipe falling apart
- SilverAg11
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 24, 2022
Hi all, first post here! :hi:
I have been hearing this crackling noise lately when I play my bass bone (Bach 50). I narrowed it down to an issue with the slide. I thought it was the spit valve but no air leaks, nothing stuck in the crook. Then I narrowed it down to the upper inner slide, so I suspected the leadpipe might be loose... worse. It has huge holes in it!
I have no idea how this happened. I guess it corroded over time for whatever reason. I always make sure to brush my teeth before playing; no food should be getting in. I never put anything but a mouthpiece and a snake brush in there.
Anyway, I am taking it to my local tech tomorrow to see if it's salvageable, but I am guessing it isn't. If it's toast, I'll have him remove it (it's the original soldered-in one) and I'll get a new one. Is the best bet a threaded or press-fit leadpipe of some kind? Any recommendations for specific ones to look at?
Thanks!
I have been hearing this crackling noise lately when I play my bass bone (Bach 50). I narrowed it down to an issue with the slide. I thought it was the spit valve but no air leaks, nothing stuck in the crook. Then I narrowed it down to the upper inner slide, so I suspected the leadpipe might be loose... worse. It has huge holes in it!
I have no idea how this happened. I guess it corroded over time for whatever reason. I always make sure to brush my teeth before playing; no food should be getting in. I never put anything but a mouthpiece and a snake brush in there.
Anyway, I am taking it to my local tech tomorrow to see if it's salvageable, but I am guessing it isn't. If it's toast, I'll have him remove it (it's the original soldered-in one) and I'll get a new one. Is the best bet a threaded or press-fit leadpipe of some kind? Any recommendations for specific ones to look at?
Thanks!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Yeah I would get a press fit replacement from Brad Close or Shires and be done with that pipe in the picture.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Get a good new leadpipe- and improve your slide hygiene protocol to maintain its function.
- SilverAg11
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 24, 2022
[quote="harrisonreed"]Yeah I would get a press fit replacement from Brad Close or Shires and be done with that pipe in the picture.[/quote]
Thanks, I'll check those out!
[quote="Burgerbob"]The O'Malley 50 pipe is very, very good.[/quote]
Would you go for the seamless or seamed one? Material?
[quote="Posaunus"]Get a good new leadpipe- and improve your slide hygiene protocol to maintain its function.[/quote]
Yeah, definitely going to be cleaning more often! My other horns (which I play just as much) are totally fine! Bizarre...
Thanks!
Thanks, I'll check those out!
[quote="Burgerbob"]The O'Malley 50 pipe is very, very good.[/quote]
Would you go for the seamless or seamed one? Material?
[quote="Posaunus"]Get a good new leadpipe- and improve your slide hygiene protocol to maintain its function.[/quote]
Yeah, definitely going to be cleaning more often! My other horns (which I play just as much) are totally fine! Bizarre...
Thanks!
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
It happened because you didn't take care of your horn. When was the last time it was professionally cleaned? Has it ever been cleaned? This didn't happen overnight, this took years of neglect
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
Oh wow, that didn't get a mouthpiece stuck in it at one time or something, did it? Or maybe using one of those older schilke's with the long shank? That looks like a mixture of corrosion and physical wear. Having the remnants removed and a press-fit installed will definitely enable you to keep it much cleaner.
- SilverAg11
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 24, 2022
[quote="hornbuilder"]It happened because you didn't take care of your horn. When was the last time it was professionally cleaned? Has it ever been cleaned? This didn't happen overnight, this took years of neglect[/quote]
This didn't happen overnight, yes.
The problem is I don't look inside every tube with a flashlight constantly, so I wasn't aware of this during my "years of neglect", though I do clean all of my horns every few months. Last time was June, so they are getting cleaned this month. Slides I clean every couple of weeks, though they only get the full soak every few months, so I will increase that. I took it in for work in February, so that's the last time it was cleaned/repaired by my tech. It's possible he just hasn't ever cleaned it and just says he "cleans it". I don't watch him, I leave it there, so who knows. Sometimes things seem dirtier than when I left them there, at least on the outside.
Either way, it's not like it's never been cleaned at all. At the very least, it gets soaked and scrubbed with soapy water regularly. How often do you recommend having things cleaned professionally? Obviously, more than once a year to avoid this. Though none of my other horns have anything like this. I checked all of them with a flashlight as well, and they are all played about the same or more than this one.
[quote="tbonesullivan"]Oh wow, that didn't get a mouthpiece stuck in it at one time or something, did it? Or maybe using one of those older schilke's with the long shank? That looks like a mixture of corrosion and physical wear. Having the remnants removed and a press-fit installed will definitely enable you to keep it much cleaner.[/quote]
Not by me, I did buy the horn used, so it's possible something was stuck in the past.
I agree that something must have started this with physical damage to the walls of the leadpipe, which allowed moisture to get trapped there and accelerate the corrosion. My horn did fall a couple years ago but I never thought to look at the leadpipe, and I am not sure my tech did when I took it in, either. Either way, yeah, definitely going to be easier to clean the removable pipe, and I will have everything cleaned more often.
This didn't happen overnight, yes.
The problem is I don't look inside every tube with a flashlight constantly, so I wasn't aware of this during my "years of neglect", though I do clean all of my horns every few months. Last time was June, so they are getting cleaned this month. Slides I clean every couple of weeks, though they only get the full soak every few months, so I will increase that. I took it in for work in February, so that's the last time it was cleaned/repaired by my tech. It's possible he just hasn't ever cleaned it and just says he "cleans it". I don't watch him, I leave it there, so who knows. Sometimes things seem dirtier than when I left them there, at least on the outside.
Either way, it's not like it's never been cleaned at all. At the very least, it gets soaked and scrubbed with soapy water regularly. How often do you recommend having things cleaned professionally? Obviously, more than once a year to avoid this. Though none of my other horns have anything like this. I checked all of them with a flashlight as well, and they are all played about the same or more than this one.
[quote="tbonesullivan"]Oh wow, that didn't get a mouthpiece stuck in it at one time or something, did it? Or maybe using one of those older schilke's with the long shank? That looks like a mixture of corrosion and physical wear. Having the remnants removed and a press-fit installed will definitely enable you to keep it much cleaner.[/quote]
Not by me, I did buy the horn used, so it's possible something was stuck in the past.
I agree that something must have started this with physical damage to the walls of the leadpipe, which allowed moisture to get trapped there and accelerate the corrosion. My horn did fall a couple years ago but I never thought to look at the leadpipe, and I am not sure my tech did when I took it in, either. Either way, yeah, definitely going to be easier to clean the removable pipe, and I will have everything cleaned more often.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
That's good that you're doing some.cleaning at home, but there is a difference between "home cleans" and "professional cleans" (which it seems as though your tech may have diddled you)
There are deposits that build up inside a horn that are difficult to remove with regular household chemicals. The cleaning you do at home, may remove the "organic compounds" (food, grease, oils, Schmutz) but it doesn't remove the really bad stuff (lime scale and oxidation/corrosion) that develop. Pro techs have chemicals/procedures to remove that material quickly and safely. I usually suggest having instruments professionally cleaned every 12 months. Sometimes more/less frequently depending on how the horn/player interact.
There are deposits that build up inside a horn that are difficult to remove with regular household chemicals. The cleaning you do at home, may remove the "organic compounds" (food, grease, oils, Schmutz) but it doesn't remove the really bad stuff (lime scale and oxidation/corrosion) that develop. Pro techs have chemicals/procedures to remove that material quickly and safely. I usually suggest having instruments professionally cleaned every 12 months. Sometimes more/less frequently depending on how the horn/player interact.
- Blabberbucket
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Oct 09, 2022
This is a common problem with soldered in leadpipes - it is very easy for flux, acid from cleanings, etc to become trapped between the leadpipe. This will greatly accelerate a pipe rotting out like that.
- SilverAg11
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 24, 2022
[quote="hornbuilder"]That's good that you're doing some.cleaning at home, but there is a difference between "home cleans" and "professional cleans" (which it seems as though your tech may have diddled you)
There are deposits that build up inside a horn that are difficult to remove with regular household chemicals. The cleaning you do at home, may remove the "organic compounds" (food, grease, oils, Schmutz) but it doesn't remove the really bad stuff (lime scale and oxidation/corrosion) that develop. Pro techs have chemicals/procedures to remove that material quickly and safely. I usually suggest having instruments professionally cleaned every 12 months. Sometimes more/less frequently depending on how the horn/player interact.[/quote]
Yeah, I think there's a good chance he wasn't doing a chem/ultrasonic clean, and I misunderstood him (giving him the benefit of the doubt :idk: ). I'll take all my horns for a full cleaning elsewhere as soon as I can to deal with any other scale I can't see. The tap water here being so hard certainly doesn't help with that.
[quote="Blabberbucket"]This is a common problem with soldered in leadpipes - it is very easy for flux, acid from cleanings, etc to become trapped between the leadpipe. This will greatly accelerate a pipe rotting out like that.[/quote]
This horn has a lot of cosmetic issues like laquer falling off easily and acid bleed around the bell rim, so I am not too surprised by this. Hopefully the inner slide surface itself is not this bad underneath.
There are deposits that build up inside a horn that are difficult to remove with regular household chemicals. The cleaning you do at home, may remove the "organic compounds" (food, grease, oils, Schmutz) but it doesn't remove the really bad stuff (lime scale and oxidation/corrosion) that develop. Pro techs have chemicals/procedures to remove that material quickly and safely. I usually suggest having instruments professionally cleaned every 12 months. Sometimes more/less frequently depending on how the horn/player interact.[/quote]
Yeah, I think there's a good chance he wasn't doing a chem/ultrasonic clean, and I misunderstood him (giving him the benefit of the doubt :idk: ). I'll take all my horns for a full cleaning elsewhere as soon as I can to deal with any other scale I can't see. The tap water here being so hard certainly doesn't help with that.
[quote="Blabberbucket"]This is a common problem with soldered in leadpipes - it is very easy for flux, acid from cleanings, etc to become trapped between the leadpipe. This will greatly accelerate a pipe rotting out like that.[/quote]
This horn has a lot of cosmetic issues like laquer falling off easily and acid bleed around the bell rim, so I am not too surprised by this. Hopefully the inner slide surface itself is not this bad underneath.
- Windmill
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Feb 14, 2021
This can also result from a damage mouthpiece shank. Happened on my king tempo. Twisting my damaged mouthpiece in the receiver finally ended in cutting it in 2 parts. The lower end fell down the inner slide tube and stuck in the crook
- SilverAg11
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 24, 2022
Update: I received the O'Malley leadpipe over the weekend, so I took the slide to my tech today. After a good fight, the old leadpipe is out (in pieces), and the new leadpipe feels and sounds great!
- SilverAg11
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 24, 2022
[quote="bubba7753"]Which leadpipe did you get?[/quote]
I got the O'Malley VG50 (Yellow Brass, Seamless, Press fit) suggested by burgerbob. It's great, everything slots super well, there's no weird "gap" or delay on low notes (not sure how to best explain this). It speaks very easily and it sounds great, at least from what others have told me.
I will add here that the whole leadpipe removal process was a rollercoaster to say the least. I took it to my usual tech and he was like 'yeah sure I can remove it'... he removed most of it and then sort of jammed the new one in (squishing the lower end) and then he had to dig the rest of it out. He somehow loosened a bit of solder in the brace on the inner slide and he took that out (maybe you can guess where this is going based on how that comes apart). Then he tells me "wow I have never taken a trombone apart that far before", which was great to hear...
You guessed it- the slide was awful after this. The upper tube was wildly out of alignment in the cork barrel to the point that the slide lock ring would hit the top of the outer slide, among other problems.
I ended up taking it to a better tech, a highly recommended guy about an hour away. Well worth the trip. He totally redid my slide (the outer slide was badly bowed in addition to the obvious inner slide issues), fixed the slight inward bend the other guy caused on the new leadpipe, and worked on the valve section as well. He cleaned it, replaced cork/bumpers/felts, etc, took out little dings, now it's in better condition than when I bought it.
TL;DR: go to the best tech you can. If everyone is recommending a guy, there's probably a reason.
I got the O'Malley VG50 (Yellow Brass, Seamless, Press fit) suggested by burgerbob. It's great, everything slots super well, there's no weird "gap" or delay on low notes (not sure how to best explain this). It speaks very easily and it sounds great, at least from what others have told me.
I will add here that the whole leadpipe removal process was a rollercoaster to say the least. I took it to my usual tech and he was like 'yeah sure I can remove it'... he removed most of it and then sort of jammed the new one in (squishing the lower end) and then he had to dig the rest of it out. He somehow loosened a bit of solder in the brace on the inner slide and he took that out (maybe you can guess where this is going based on how that comes apart). Then he tells me "wow I have never taken a trombone apart that far before", which was great to hear...
You guessed it- the slide was awful after this. The upper tube was wildly out of alignment in the cork barrel to the point that the slide lock ring would hit the top of the outer slide, among other problems.
I ended up taking it to a better tech, a highly recommended guy about an hour away. Well worth the trip. He totally redid my slide (the outer slide was badly bowed in addition to the obvious inner slide issues), fixed the slight inward bend the other guy caused on the new leadpipe, and worked on the valve section as well. He cleaned it, replaced cork/bumpers/felts, etc, took out little dings, now it's in better condition than when I bought it.
TL;DR: go to the best tech you can. If everyone is recommending a guy, there's probably a reason.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="SilverAg11"]<QUOTE author="bubba7753" post_id="287464" time="1760721744" user_id="110">
Which leadpipe did you get?[/quote]
I will add here that the whole leadpipe removal process was a rollercoaster to say the least. I took it to my usual tech and he was like 'yeah sure I can remove it'... he removed most of it and then sort of jammed the new one in (squishing the lower end) and then he had to dig the rest of it out. He somehow loosened a bit of solder in the brace on the inner slide and he took that out (maybe you can guess where this is going based on how that comes apart). Then he tells me "wow I have never taken a trombone apart that far before", which was great to hear...
</QUOTE>
Nooooooo......
And this was the same guy who was already "cleaning" your horn and didn't realize the lead pipe was destroyed to begin with? And he was unable to even install a press-fit lead pipe (ie removable and not even threaded) without "squishing" it?
Which leadpipe did you get?[/quote]
I will add here that the whole leadpipe removal process was a rollercoaster to say the least. I took it to my usual tech and he was like 'yeah sure I can remove it'... he removed most of it and then sort of jammed the new one in (squishing the lower end) and then he had to dig the rest of it out. He somehow loosened a bit of solder in the brace on the inner slide and he took that out (maybe you can guess where this is going based on how that comes apart). Then he tells me "wow I have never taken a trombone apart that far before", which was great to hear...
</QUOTE>
Nooooooo......
And this was the same guy who was already "cleaning" your horn and didn't realize the lead pipe was destroyed to begin with? And he was unable to even install a press-fit lead pipe (ie removable and not even threaded) without "squishing" it?
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Silver,
Your first tech needs to be on the TromboneChat "Avoid" list! :horror:
Your first tech needs to be on the TromboneChat "Avoid" list! :horror:
- SilverAg11
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 24, 2022
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="SilverAg11" post_id="290263" time="1765171012" user_id="14963">
I will add here that the whole leadpipe removal process was a rollercoaster to say the least. I took it to my usual tech and he was like 'yeah sure I can remove it'... he removed most of it and then sort of jammed the new one in (squishing the lower end) and then he had to dig the rest of it out. He somehow loosened a bit of solder in the brace on the inner slide and he took that out (maybe you can guess where this is going based on how that comes apart). Then he tells me "wow I have never taken a trombone apart that far before", which was great to hear...
[/quote]
Nooooooo......
And this was the same guy who was already "cleaning" your horn and didn't realize the lead pipe was destroyed to begin with? And he was unable to even install a press-fit lead pipe (ie removable and not even threaded) without "squishing" it?
</QUOTE>
Haha yes- I can't fully blame him, definitely on me as well, but come on man... he could have told me he hadn't dealt with it before. He's primarily a woodwind guy, to be fair. I think he just jammed it in, and the piece of the old pipe that was still in there crushed it in slightly. Either way, I found a great tech in the whole process so it's a win overall.
I will add here that the whole leadpipe removal process was a rollercoaster to say the least. I took it to my usual tech and he was like 'yeah sure I can remove it'... he removed most of it and then sort of jammed the new one in (squishing the lower end) and then he had to dig the rest of it out. He somehow loosened a bit of solder in the brace on the inner slide and he took that out (maybe you can guess where this is going based on how that comes apart). Then he tells me "wow I have never taken a trombone apart that far before", which was great to hear...
[/quote]
Nooooooo......
And this was the same guy who was already "cleaning" your horn and didn't realize the lead pipe was destroyed to begin with? And he was unable to even install a press-fit lead pipe (ie removable and not even threaded) without "squishing" it?
</QUOTE>
Haha yes- I can't fully blame him, definitely on me as well, but come on man... he could have told me he hadn't dealt with it before. He's primarily a woodwind guy, to be fair. I think he just jammed it in, and the piece of the old pipe that was still in there crushed it in slightly. Either way, I found a great tech in the whole process so it's a win overall.
- SilverAg11
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 24, 2022
[quote="Posaunus"]Silver,
Your first tech needs to be on the TromboneChat "Avoid" list! :horror:[/quote]
Probably yes! I don't want to throw him under the bus because he's a good woodwind repair guy, as far as I hear, and I think he's more of just a local guy here.
Instead, I will shout out the man who saved my horn- Bill Korzick in New Haven, CT. If you are within a reasonable distance of him, he's a real master. Great guy, very busy (for good reason), but willing to make time for you. Bit of a drive out there for me, but so worth it. Apparently, people come up from as far as DC for him!
Your first tech needs to be on the TromboneChat "Avoid" list! :horror:[/quote]
Probably yes! I don't want to throw him under the bus because he's a good woodwind repair guy, as far as I hear, and I think he's more of just a local guy here.
Instead, I will shout out the man who saved my horn- Bill Korzick in New Haven, CT. If you are within a reasonable distance of him, he's a real master. Great guy, very busy (for good reason), but willing to make time for you. Bit of a drive out there for me, but so worth it. Apparently, people come up from as far as DC for him!
- wayne88ny
- Posts: 82
- Joined: May 24, 2018
You can keep lead pipe and the inner slide clean with HW Brass Saver. It's the best trombone snake. The bristles look like a caterpillar. They're soft bristles, but by the way it's designed, it will fit snugly in any bore size. Use it wet or dry, but use it often.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="wayne88ny"]You can keep lead pipe and the inner slide clean with HW Brass Saver. It's the best trombone snake. The bristles look like a caterpillar. They're soft bristles, but by the way it's designed, it will fit snugly in any bore size. Use it wet or dry, but use it often.[/quote]
:good:
:good:
- SilverAg11
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 24, 2022
[quote="wayne88ny"]You can keep lead pipe and the inner slide clean with HW Brass Saver. It's the best trombone snake. The bristles look like a caterpillar. They're soft bristles, but by the way it's designed, it will fit snugly in any bore size. Use it wet or dry, but use it often.[/quote]
I got one, thanks for the recc.! Much nicer than my almost 20yr-old snake, bristles were getting kind of useless on it
I got one, thanks for the recc.! Much nicer than my almost 20yr-old snake, bristles were getting kind of useless on it
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="SilverAg11"]<QUOTE author="wayne88ny" post_id="290577" time="1765701276" user_id="3321">
You can keep lead pipe and the inner slide clean with HW Brass Saver. It's the best trombone snake. The bristles look like a caterpillar. They're soft bristles, but by the way it's designed, it will fit snugly in any bore size. Use it wet or dry, but use it often.[/quote]
I got one, thanks for the recc.! Much nicer than my almost 20yr-old snake, bristles were getting kind of useless on it
</QUOTE>
YES! I use the HWP Brass-Saver in my inner slides, since it will not disturb or damage the lead pipe (as might an old-fashioned "snake"). It will also pass through the outer slide, from inlet to outlet, and through the bell section (even through the valve of the F-attachment!). Just dry the brush (with a cotton towel or similar) after each pass, and it will be ready for the next tube. I use the Trombone Brass-Saver for small-bore tenors, and the Tuba Brass-Saver for large-bore tenors and bass trombone. Great product!
You can keep lead pipe and the inner slide clean with HW Brass Saver. It's the best trombone snake. The bristles look like a caterpillar. They're soft bristles, but by the way it's designed, it will fit snugly in any bore size. Use it wet or dry, but use it often.[/quote]
I got one, thanks for the recc.! Much nicer than my almost 20yr-old snake, bristles were getting kind of useless on it
</QUOTE>
YES! I use the HWP Brass-Saver in my inner slides, since it will not disturb or damage the lead pipe (as might an old-fashioned "snake"). It will also pass through the outer slide, from inlet to outlet, and through the bell section (even through the valve of the F-attachment!). Just dry the brush (with a cotton towel or similar) after each pass, and it will be ready for the next tube. I use the Trombone Brass-Saver for small-bore tenors, and the Tuba Brass-Saver for large-bore tenors and bass trombone. Great product!