Custom lead pipe. Am I doing it wrong?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I don't usually go in for modification or experimentation with equipment. I've played the same stock gear for, like, ever.
But I have a Bach 16M, and people keep saying "change the lead pipe!" to improve it. And when I ask "to what?" the consensus is "the Kanstul H8 is the best!" Well, Kanstul is out of business. So I looked around for a used H8. Couldn't find one. What to do?
BAC has the Kanstul tooling. I asked and they declined to use it to make me a lead pipe. So a local acquaintance brought his Kanstul H8 into a local music store and they took all the measurements of the H8. We then contacted Shires and asked if they would custom recreate the Kanstul H8 to the specs we gave them. They agreed.
It's several months later and I just got the new lead pipe. It is substantially longer than the stock lead pipe, is more open at either, and the venturi is visibly different. It looked like a dramatic change!
Had the old lead pipe extracted and the new one (pressure fit) inserted. Such a dramatic difference in appearance and the fact that I went to a lot of trouble to recreate the H8 made me super eager to get it home and play it.
After all that, I notice ZERO difference in how the horn sounds or plays. Like, no difference at all. I swap the old and new lead pipes back and forth to compare. Nothing.
Am I doing this wrong? What should I expect from a modification exercise like this?
But I have a Bach 16M, and people keep saying "change the lead pipe!" to improve it. And when I ask "to what?" the consensus is "the Kanstul H8 is the best!" Well, Kanstul is out of business. So I looked around for a used H8. Couldn't find one. What to do?
BAC has the Kanstul tooling. I asked and they declined to use it to make me a lead pipe. So a local acquaintance brought his Kanstul H8 into a local music store and they took all the measurements of the H8. We then contacted Shires and asked if they would custom recreate the Kanstul H8 to the specs we gave them. They agreed.
It's several months later and I just got the new lead pipe. It is substantially longer than the stock lead pipe, is more open at either, and the venturi is visibly different. It looked like a dramatic change!
Had the old lead pipe extracted and the new one (pressure fit) inserted. Such a dramatic difference in appearance and the fact that I went to a lot of trouble to recreate the H8 made me super eager to get it home and play it.
After all that, I notice ZERO difference in how the horn sounds or plays. Like, no difference at all. I swap the old and new lead pipes back and forth to compare. Nothing.
Am I doing this wrong? What should I expect from a modification exercise like this?
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Yeah, you're kinda doing it wrong, although I hesitate to criticize anyone who gets great results. Generally you need more than 2 data points. Listening to the mob isn't always the right way to go, but I recognize you have to start somewhere. I probably would have started by buying some cheap pipes to get an idea for what is going to change your horn in the direction you want to go. And then don't overlook the possibility that the combination of a pipe and a mouthpiece may be part of the answer. Eventually you will get confused and lost, and then you'll know you're doing it right.
tldr: try lots of pipes including cheap pipes, try mixing mouthpieces, if you never see an improvement you'll know you were already on the top of the curve.
tldr: try lots of pipes including cheap pipes, try mixing mouthpieces, if you never see an improvement you'll know you were already on the top of the curve.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Dana if you can't feel the difference between two drastically different leadpipes, you're either:
A) A vampire
B) someone who plays "close to the face".
I imagine it's "B". The people who get the most out of equipment changes are the ones who are playing "out from the face". If you play close to the face, the equipment is kind of incidental to the player.
A) A vampire
B) someone who plays "close to the face".
I imagine it's "B". The people who get the most out of equipment changes are the ones who are playing "out from the face". If you play close to the face, the equipment is kind of incidental to the player.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]Dana if you can't feel the difference between two drastically different leadpipes, you're either:
A) A vampire
B) someone who plays "close to the face".
I imagine it's "B". The people who get the most out of equipment changes are the ones who are playing "out from the face". If you play close to the face, the equipment is kind of incidental to the player.[/quote]
Harry, what does "close to the face" mean in this context? Is it something like the mantra I keep repeating that "everything important happens before the mouthpiece?" Or what?
I'm probably not a vampire, as my bedtime gets earlier the older I get.
I'm wondering if I'm just too much of an idiot to recognize that there's some substantial difference that is just eluding me.
A) A vampire
B) someone who plays "close to the face".
I imagine it's "B". The people who get the most out of equipment changes are the ones who are playing "out from the face". If you play close to the face, the equipment is kind of incidental to the player.[/quote]
Harry, what does "close to the face" mean in this context? Is it something like the mantra I keep repeating that "everything important happens before the mouthpiece?" Or what?
I'm probably not a vampire, as my bedtime gets earlier the older I get.
I'm wondering if I'm just too much of an idiot to recognize that there's some substantial difference that is just eluding me.
- Fidbone
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
I guess if you’re not happy with your current Trombone, try changing the whole set up
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I'm the wrong person to talk about leadpipes - I have never experimented with them and all of my horns have stock leadpipes, although I have a couple that I suspect could be improved a lot. However, I have obviously done tons of experimenting with mouthpieces.
My question would be - have you played gigs on the new one or just tried it at home? You'll find out a lot more about differences if you play a full gig on it.
My question would be - have you played gigs on the new one or just tried it at home? You'll find out a lot more about differences if you play a full gig on it.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Doug Elliott"]My question would be - have you played gigs on the new one or just tried it at home? You'll find out a lot more about differences if you play a full gig on it.[/quote]
Ah. Good point. I've only played it at home and at a trombone quartet rehearsal yesterday. I'll take your advice and see what I can learn from some upcoming gigs.
Ah. Good point. I've only played it at home and at a trombone quartet rehearsal yesterday. I'll take your advice and see what I can learn from some upcoming gigs.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Shires describes how longer and shorter lead pipes should affect sound. They say shorter lead pipes have a "more open sound and feel," and longer lead pipes have a "more centered sound and feel." But honestly, I don't even understand what "more open sound" and "more centered sound" mean in this context. Does anyone know?
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I would describe more open as wider/bigger, and more centered as more compact/focused.
Verbal descriptions often can be problematic in that individuals have their own take on what that means, so you're not alone in feeling confused. I've generally found the Shires description (or my terminology) to be true in most cases. Think wider vs. tighter slots on the notes as another common description that might resonate with you. Good luck!
Jim Scott
Verbal descriptions often can be problematic in that individuals have their own take on what that means, so you're not alone in feeling confused. I've generally found the Shires description (or my terminology) to be true in most cases. Think wider vs. tighter slots on the notes as another common description that might resonate with you. Good luck!
Jim Scott
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="285083" time="1757347172" user_id="3642">
Dana if you can't feel the difference between two drastically different leadpipes, you're either:
A) A vampire
B) someone who plays "close to the face".
I imagine it's "B". The people who get the most out of equipment changes are the ones who are playing "out from the face". If you play close to the face, the equipment is kind of incidental to the player.[/quote]
Harry, what does "close to the face" mean in this context? Is it something like the mantra I keep repeating that "everything important happens before the mouthpiece?" Or what?
I'm probably not a vampire, as my bedtime gets earlier the older I get.
I'm wondering if I'm just too much of an idiot to recognize that there's some substantial difference that is just eluding me.
</QUOTE>
I'm talking about making the sound mostly with your lips, vs making the sound with the vibration of all the air moving through the instrument. But I'm not making a judgement call on that, I'd put Watrous in the "close to the face" camp, too. That guy could play like crazy. You can play like crazy too. Perhaps you play in a similar way to him, mechanically.
In my hypothesis, which could be wrong, if you play like that, the leadpipe won't do very much.
Dana if you can't feel the difference between two drastically different leadpipes, you're either:
A) A vampire
B) someone who plays "close to the face".
I imagine it's "B". The people who get the most out of equipment changes are the ones who are playing "out from the face". If you play close to the face, the equipment is kind of incidental to the player.[/quote]
Harry, what does "close to the face" mean in this context? Is it something like the mantra I keep repeating that "everything important happens before the mouthpiece?" Or what?
I'm probably not a vampire, as my bedtime gets earlier the older I get.
I'm wondering if I'm just too much of an idiot to recognize that there's some substantial difference that is just eluding me.
</QUOTE>
I'm talking about making the sound mostly with your lips, vs making the sound with the vibration of all the air moving through the instrument. But I'm not making a judgement call on that, I'd put Watrous in the "close to the face" camp, too. That guy could play like crazy. You can play like crazy too. Perhaps you play in a similar way to him, mechanically.
In my hypothesis, which could be wrong, if you play like that, the leadpipe won't do very much.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="285084" time="1757347796" user_id="16498">
Harry, what does "close to the face" mean in this context? Is it something like the mantra I keep repeating that "everything important happens before the mouthpiece?" Or what?
I'm probably not a vampire, as my bedtime gets earlier the older I get.
I'm wondering if I'm just too much of an idiot to recognize that there's some substantial difference that is just eluding me.[/quote]
I'm talking about making the sound mostly with your lips, vs making the sound with the vibration of all the air moving through the instrument. But I'm not making a judgement call on that, I'd put Watrous in the "close to the face" camp, too. That guy could play like crazy. You can play like crazy too. Perhaps you play in a similar way to him, mechanically.
In my hypothesis, which could be wrong, if you play like that, the leadpipe won't do very much.
</QUOTE>
Interesting. That's a concept I'm not familiar with, but perhaps you're right.
I still don't have a handle on what "close to the face" or "making the sound mostly with your lips vs all the air moving through the instrument" mean physically, but I do pretty much just "sound like me" on any setup. And yeah, I did pick up a lot through osmosis by sitting next to Watrous (who I always felt was the most correct player I knew), so what you are saying feels like it has a lot of truth in it. This is a concept I'd love to learn more about. If it's right, it answers a lot of questions, even if it's a bit disappointing.
OTOH, it says I'm pretty much screwed when trying to make positive changes, since gear changes "won't do very much." And it means I just wasted a bunch of time and money having a custom lead pipe made. Perhaps I just need to accept that I'm not going to improve things through gear swaps and can only blame my body. Which means making things better is going to be hard or impossible, and not something I can do with equipment like most people. So, a bit depressing.
I wonder what our resident chop experts, like Doug and Dave, think about this "close to the face" concept, and what it means for equipment changes.
Harry, what does "close to the face" mean in this context? Is it something like the mantra I keep repeating that "everything important happens before the mouthpiece?" Or what?
I'm probably not a vampire, as my bedtime gets earlier the older I get.
I'm wondering if I'm just too much of an idiot to recognize that there's some substantial difference that is just eluding me.[/quote]
I'm talking about making the sound mostly with your lips, vs making the sound with the vibration of all the air moving through the instrument. But I'm not making a judgement call on that, I'd put Watrous in the "close to the face" camp, too. That guy could play like crazy. You can play like crazy too. Perhaps you play in a similar way to him, mechanically.
In my hypothesis, which could be wrong, if you play like that, the leadpipe won't do very much.
</QUOTE>
Interesting. That's a concept I'm not familiar with, but perhaps you're right.
I still don't have a handle on what "close to the face" or "making the sound mostly with your lips vs all the air moving through the instrument" mean physically, but I do pretty much just "sound like me" on any setup. And yeah, I did pick up a lot through osmosis by sitting next to Watrous (who I always felt was the most correct player I knew), so what you are saying feels like it has a lot of truth in it. This is a concept I'd love to learn more about. If it's right, it answers a lot of questions, even if it's a bit disappointing.
OTOH, it says I'm pretty much screwed when trying to make positive changes, since gear changes "won't do very much." And it means I just wasted a bunch of time and money having a custom lead pipe made. Perhaps I just need to accept that I'm not going to improve things through gear swaps and can only blame my body. Which means making things better is going to be hard or impossible, and not something I can do with equipment like most people. So, a bit depressing.
I wonder what our resident chop experts, like Doug and Dave, think about this "close to the face" concept, and what it means for equipment changes.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Dana,
Since, from audio evidence that you have posted, you already play pretty darn well (O.K., better than "well"), just what is it about your sound that you're disappointed with and want to improve?
If I played as well as you, I'd drop the chase for the elusive perfect equipment, and just be looking for new music to play and new folks to make music with on a high level.
Good luck!
Since, from audio evidence that you have posted, you already play pretty darn well (O.K., better than "well"), just what is it about your sound that you're disappointed with and want to improve?
If I played as well as you, I'd drop the chase for the elusive perfect equipment, and just be looking for new music to play and new folks to make music with on a high level.
Good luck!
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Posaunus"]Dana,
Since, from audio evidence that you have posted, you already play pretty darn well (O.K., better than "well"), just what is it about your sound that you're disappointed with and want to improve?
If I played as well as you, I'd drop the chase for the elusive perfect equipment, and just be looking for new music to play and new folks to make music with on a high level.
Good luck![/quote]
Thanks for the kind words, Dave, they mean a lot. You're very kind. :-D
I just feel like my 16M is unnecessarily stuffy in the upper register compared to other horns I've played. Maybe it's just my horn, as I played one of Al Kaplan's old 16Ms and it's much more open feeling up high (though it's also way too bright). Several people suggested this lead pipe change.
I'm actually generally happy with my playing these days. I just have this one annoyance with my horn. I could switch to a different horn I suppose, but there's something about the sound and feel of the Bach 16M that I absolutely love, and I have never found its equal.
BTW, I am actively seeking new music to play! This late in life I've fallen into becoming a bit of a soloist, when in my previous life I was always just a side musician. My accidental Tribute album isn't the best I could have done. Some of it is embarrassingly cringe. So I am working up a new, more purposeful album that I hope will be significantly better. I feel like I have to prove (to myself) that even though I took 30 years off I can still hang with players I admire, so I'm looking for material that will demonstrate that, though that's not normally my thing. I just have a lot of missed years to make up for, and very few years left in which to do it.
Anyway, this is all to say that I'm already following your advice, but I was just hoping I could fix the stuffiness in my upper register, since I tend to live up there quite a bit.
Since, from audio evidence that you have posted, you already play pretty darn well (O.K., better than "well"), just what is it about your sound that you're disappointed with and want to improve?
If I played as well as you, I'd drop the chase for the elusive perfect equipment, and just be looking for new music to play and new folks to make music with on a high level.
Good luck![/quote]
Thanks for the kind words, Dave, they mean a lot. You're very kind. :-D
I just feel like my 16M is unnecessarily stuffy in the upper register compared to other horns I've played. Maybe it's just my horn, as I played one of Al Kaplan's old 16Ms and it's much more open feeling up high (though it's also way too bright). Several people suggested this lead pipe change.
I'm actually generally happy with my playing these days. I just have this one annoyance with my horn. I could switch to a different horn I suppose, but there's something about the sound and feel of the Bach 16M that I absolutely love, and I have never found its equal.
BTW, I am actively seeking new music to play! This late in life I've fallen into becoming a bit of a soloist, when in my previous life I was always just a side musician. My accidental Tribute album isn't the best I could have done. Some of it is embarrassingly cringe. So I am working up a new, more purposeful album that I hope will be significantly better. I feel like I have to prove (to myself) that even though I took 30 years off I can still hang with players I admire, so I'm looking for material that will demonstrate that, though that's not normally my thing. I just have a lot of missed years to make up for, and very few years left in which to do it.
Anyway, this is all to say that I'm already following your advice, but I was just hoping I could fix the stuffiness in my upper register, since I tend to live up there quite a bit.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]
Interesting. That's a concept I'm not familiar with, but perhaps you're right.
I still don't have a handle on what "close to the face" or "making the sound mostly with your lips vs all the air moving through the instrument" mean physically, but I do pretty much just "sound like me" on any setup. And yeah, I did pick up a lot through osmosis by sitting next to Watrous (who I always felt was the most correct player I knew), so what you are saying feels like it has a lot of truth in it. This is a concept I'd love to learn more about. If it's right, it answers a lot of questions, even if it's a bit disappointing.
OTOH, it says I'm pretty much screwed when trying to make positive changes, since gear changes "won't do very much." And it means I just wasted a bunch of time and money having a custom lead pipe made. Perhaps I just need to accept that I'm not going to improve things through gear swaps and can only blame my body. Which means making things better is going to be hard or impossible, and not something I can do with equipment like most people. So, a bit depressing.
I wonder what our resident chop experts, like Doug and Dave, think about this "close to the face" concept, and what it means for equipment changes.[/quote]
Before I get crucified by the embouchure experts, and fully admitting that I am no embouchure expert, there was a rather lengthy discussion on the old forum where I proposed the idea of a "Type 1" vs "Type 2" player, which ended up getting pretty deep into the weeds. Ian Bousfield describes this same idea as "playing with a head voice" and "playing with a chest voice". I think the distinction also comes up, notably, with people who make the claim that the trombone is just an amplifier for the buzzing lips (these people are usually proponents of mouthpiece buzzing, too), and others like myself that make the claim that the sound of the lips buzzing is *not* what you're after and the real trombone sound is made by the vibration of all of the air contained in the trombone as one system, and the buzzing lips are influenced by and nearly incidental to this vibrating air (I believe buzzing is not beneficial).
I say this not to get into a buzz vs no buzz argument, but to say that there are, in my mind, two camps in the approach to playing, both valid, and that these approaches *may* be influenced more by equipment (away from the face, type 2, chest voice) or *may not* (close to the face, type 1, head voice).
Interesting. That's a concept I'm not familiar with, but perhaps you're right.
I still don't have a handle on what "close to the face" or "making the sound mostly with your lips vs all the air moving through the instrument" mean physically, but I do pretty much just "sound like me" on any setup. And yeah, I did pick up a lot through osmosis by sitting next to Watrous (who I always felt was the most correct player I knew), so what you are saying feels like it has a lot of truth in it. This is a concept I'd love to learn more about. If it's right, it answers a lot of questions, even if it's a bit disappointing.
OTOH, it says I'm pretty much screwed when trying to make positive changes, since gear changes "won't do very much." And it means I just wasted a bunch of time and money having a custom lead pipe made. Perhaps I just need to accept that I'm not going to improve things through gear swaps and can only blame my body. Which means making things better is going to be hard or impossible, and not something I can do with equipment like most people. So, a bit depressing.
I wonder what our resident chop experts, like Doug and Dave, think about this "close to the face" concept, and what it means for equipment changes.[/quote]
Before I get crucified by the embouchure experts, and fully admitting that I am no embouchure expert, there was a rather lengthy discussion on the old forum where I proposed the idea of a "Type 1" vs "Type 2" player, which ended up getting pretty deep into the weeds. Ian Bousfield describes this same idea as "playing with a head voice" and "playing with a chest voice". I think the distinction also comes up, notably, with people who make the claim that the trombone is just an amplifier for the buzzing lips (these people are usually proponents of mouthpiece buzzing, too), and others like myself that make the claim that the sound of the lips buzzing is *not* what you're after and the real trombone sound is made by the vibration of all of the air contained in the trombone as one system, and the buzzing lips are influenced by and nearly incidental to this vibrating air (I believe buzzing is not beneficial).
I say this not to get into a buzz vs no buzz argument, but to say that there are, in my mind, two camps in the approach to playing, both valid, and that these approaches *may* be influenced more by equipment (away from the face, type 2, chest voice) or *may not* (close to the face, type 1, head voice).
- Blabberbucket
- Posts: 305
- Joined: Oct 09, 2022
The Kanstul H8 pipe has a very large venturi and is very short, it is curious that you say the pipe you received from Shíres is longer than the stock 16 pipe. I don't have my measurements handy at the moment, but I recall the H8 being somewhere in the realm of 6" long.
Generally, in my experience, the length of the pipe has the biggest impact on "slotting." A shorter pipe will have a "smaller target," meaning the player will need to be more accurate in placement of the slide and embouchure to produce a centered note. A longer pipe will have a "larger target," meaning the player can be somewhat less accurate and still produce a clear sound.
I would suggest trying a pipe with a smaller venturi - players chasing a more "open" feel/response, in my experience, find what they are looking for from a little bit of resistance at the front of the horn to lean against. Have your horn checked for leaks as well, if you haven't already done that.
Generally, in my experience, the length of the pipe has the biggest impact on "slotting." A shorter pipe will have a "smaller target," meaning the player will need to be more accurate in placement of the slide and embouchure to produce a centered note. A longer pipe will have a "larger target," meaning the player can be somewhat less accurate and still produce a clear sound.
I would suggest trying a pipe with a smaller venturi - players chasing a more "open" feel/response, in my experience, find what they are looking for from a little bit of resistance at the front of the horn to lean against. Have your horn checked for leaks as well, if you haven't already done that.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Blabberbucket"]The Kanstul H8 pipe has a very large venturi and is very short, it is curious that you say the pipe you received from Shíres is longer than the stock 16 pipe. I don't have my measurements handy at the moment, but I recall the H8 being somewhere in the realm of 6" long.[/quote]
I don't know how long the H8 was, but Shires cut this lead pipe down to supposedly match it. Here are the stock lead pipe (6") and the new lead pipe (7 3/4").
Not sure I understand that, but I'm looking for less resistance, which to me creates a more open feel/response. Unless I'm misunderstanding.
I don't know how long the H8 was, but Shires cut this lead pipe down to supposedly match it. Here are the stock lead pipe (6") and the new lead pipe (7 3/4").
I would suggest trying a pipe with a smaller venturi - players chasing a more "open" feel/response, in my experience, find what they are looking for from a little bit of resistance at the front of the horn to lean against. Have your horn checked for leaks as well, if you haven't already done that.
Not sure I understand that, but I'm looking for less resistance, which to me creates a more open feel/response. Unless I'm misunderstanding.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Some changes feel the opposite of what they acually are.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Some changes feel the opposite of what they acually are.[/quote]
Very mystical, master Yoda! :D
Very mystical, master Yoda! :D
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
If something about tbe mouthpiece/leadpipe/horn is too tight, you tend to open things too much to compensate, and if something is too open you tend to tighten up to compensate.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
The best comparison I can give you from personal experience is that I played 3 different #2 sterling leadpipes on my T350 Edwards. Now, we're talking about different manufacturer, .547 bore (w/thayer) as well.
I bought a standard #2 from the factory - they make them longer than the stock brass pipes, and it played pretty well. Sterling ads other differences but the blow was very similar to a stock brass #2, with some more core to the sound (from the sterling, I think).
I eventually picked up a used #2 Sterling Kitzman model pipe. He was Principal in Dallas at the time. This version was a bit shorter. I found the sound to be a bit wider, and there was a darker, more controlled sound at the louder volumes. Slightly more "lock" on the note you were playing, and maybe slightly less flexible.
After trying one of the Alessi versions of the #2 Sterling, I bought one. Shorter still than the Kitzman, with an even wider sound and again, a lot of "lock" on the note as you were playing it Lots of core in the sound, with a really great orchestral forte. Softs were also really good, but again, maybe a little less flexible.
My take based on my experiences is that the longer pipes generally make flexibility (like in the Remington warm-ups) a bit easier, while the shorter pipes generally gave more center and width to the sound. With the shorter pipe, I felt like the note I was playing was more of a platform - really solid. Like Doug said, sometimes things contradict what you expect - I found the shorter pipes to be better in the high range (marginally), when you would expect more resistance to make that easier. The Alessi version had the best high D for instance, by far.
My $.02 (CAN).
Jim Scott
I bought a standard #2 from the factory - they make them longer than the stock brass pipes, and it played pretty well. Sterling ads other differences but the blow was very similar to a stock brass #2, with some more core to the sound (from the sterling, I think).
I eventually picked up a used #2 Sterling Kitzman model pipe. He was Principal in Dallas at the time. This version was a bit shorter. I found the sound to be a bit wider, and there was a darker, more controlled sound at the louder volumes. Slightly more "lock" on the note you were playing, and maybe slightly less flexible.
After trying one of the Alessi versions of the #2 Sterling, I bought one. Shorter still than the Kitzman, with an even wider sound and again, a lot of "lock" on the note as you were playing it Lots of core in the sound, with a really great orchestral forte. Softs were also really good, but again, maybe a little less flexible.
My take based on my experiences is that the longer pipes generally make flexibility (like in the Remington warm-ups) a bit easier, while the shorter pipes generally gave more center and width to the sound. With the shorter pipe, I felt like the note I was playing was more of a platform - really solid. Like Doug said, sometimes things contradict what you expect - I found the shorter pipes to be better in the high range (marginally), when you would expect more resistance to make that easier. The Alessi version had the best high D for instance, by far.
My $.02 (CAN).
Jim Scott
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
There was another difference in the Kitzman and Alesia pipes from the standard T2… proprietary info, but let’s say that i would be surprised if the Venturi measured the same, the taper still would.
Aka, why I hate the leadpipe carousel.
BUT, I have gradually come around to the BrassLab method…. Don’t know anything about the pipe, just blow through it and see. You might be a good candidate for a test box from OMalley.
Cheers,
Andy
Aka, why I hate the leadpipe carousel.
BUT, I have gradually come around to the BrassLab method…. Don’t know anything about the pipe, just blow through it and see. You might be a good candidate for a test box from OMalley.
Cheers,
Andy
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I heard a rumour that the Alessi pipe cut off at least some of the length at the front end (where it connects to the receiver portion). If that was true, the pipe is probably more open earlier in the leadpipe.
I don't know this for a fact, however. t could be true based on how the two played in my experience, but nobody that's "official" within the Edwards world told me that.
JS
I don't know this for a fact, however. t could be true based on how the two played in my experience, but nobody that's "official" within the Edwards world told me that.
JS
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
If I remember correctly, You have played a 16M for a long time.
You adapted to /embraced the 16M and it`s (in my opinion) awful leadpipe..
I`ve heard a couple videos of you playing and they sounded fantastic.
Yes, The H8 leadpipe made a huge difference in the way my 16MG played. More focus, better slotting , etc..
But t obviously works for you.
Brad Close I believe makes a .509 version of his 32H leadpipe. Maybe give him a shout.
There`s always something that we think can be made better on our horns. HA!!!
You adapted to /embraced the 16M and it`s (in my opinion) awful leadpipe..
I`ve heard a couple videos of you playing and they sounded fantastic.
Yes, The H8 leadpipe made a huge difference in the way my 16MG played. More focus, better slotting , etc..
But t obviously works for you.
Brad Close I believe makes a .509 version of his 32H leadpipe. Maybe give him a shout.
There`s always something that we think can be made better on our horns. HA!!!
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="dukesboneman"]If I remember correctly, You have played a 16M for a long time.
You adapted to /embraced the 16M and it`s (in my opinion) awful leadpipe..
I`ve heard a couple videos of you playing and they sounded fantastic.
Yes, The H8 leadpipe made a huge difference in the way my 16MG played. More focus, better slotting , etc..
But t obviously works for you.
Brad Close I believe makes a .509 version of his 32H leadpipe. Maybe give him a shout.
There`s always something that we think can be made better on our horns. HA!!![/quote]
Yeah, I have played the 16M for most of my playing life. The new lead pipe I have is supposed to be exactly like the H8 (but who knows, really?).
Now that I've spent some time with the new pipe, and played some gigs on it as Doug suggests, I have noticed some subtle differences. It does slot a little better. It is also has a bit more focused (and unfortunately a bit brighter) sound. I'm going to stick with it for now.
But it certainly wasn't the kind of dramatic (e.g. "huge") difference people keep talking about. Maybe because my new pipe is a knockoff. I dunno.
I'm returning to my default position, which is that I don't need equipment to solve all my problems, I just need it not to get in my way. And I felt the old lead pipe was getting in my way. This one...isn't, so far. :)
You adapted to /embraced the 16M and it`s (in my opinion) awful leadpipe..
I`ve heard a couple videos of you playing and they sounded fantastic.
Yes, The H8 leadpipe made a huge difference in the way my 16MG played. More focus, better slotting , etc..
But t obviously works for you.
Brad Close I believe makes a .509 version of his 32H leadpipe. Maybe give him a shout.
There`s always something that we think can be made better on our horns. HA!!![/quote]
Yeah, I have played the 16M for most of my playing life. The new lead pipe I have is supposed to be exactly like the H8 (but who knows, really?).
Now that I've spent some time with the new pipe, and played some gigs on it as Doug suggests, I have noticed some subtle differences. It does slot a little better. It is also has a bit more focused (and unfortunately a bit brighter) sound. I'm going to stick with it for now.
But it certainly wasn't the kind of dramatic (e.g. "huge") difference people keep talking about. Maybe because my new pipe is a knockoff. I dunno.
I'm returning to my default position, which is that I don't need equipment to solve all my problems, I just need it not to get in my way. And I felt the old lead pipe was getting in my way. This one...isn't, so far. :)
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Something that is perhaps not likely, though not unlikely either, is that both pipes are a poor fit for the horn. If neither makes a good connection to the slide (ideally, they are basically the same size as the tube they are going in and perfectly round), then the result can be unfocused. Eventually, you get used to playing that way, so both would feel similar even with different venturis.
- CheeseTray
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Apr 21, 2018
[quote="Blabberbucket"]The Kanstul H8 pipe has a very large venturi and is very short, it is curious that you say the pipe you received from Shíres is longer than the stock 16 pipe. I don't have my measurements handy at the moment, but I recall the H8 being somewhere in the realm of 6" long.[/quote]
FWIW, I have an H8 pipe in my 16M and the pipe is 7.5" long.
FWIW, I have an H8 pipe in my 16M and the pipe is 7.5" long.