Smashed 88h Bell...
- Badgerm
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Sep 09, 2018
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qdxHoG8GqwxL7jAh8
I’m getting this 88h for free but I will need to help the bell out...
What would you have done and how much do you project your repair idea to cost?
Thanks.
I’m getting this 88h for free but I will need to help the bell out...
What would you have done and how much do you project your repair idea to cost?
Thanks.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Have a good Tech roll it out. It'll cost less than $100.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
That actually doesn't look... too bad. I mean it isn't good... it is pretty damaged though $100 might be generous for that much damage. Friend of mine had similar damage done to a Bach C trumpet a few years ago and Osmun charge around $300 BUT it honestly came out looking better than it did before the damage so still way cheaper than a new bell. EDIT: Meant to say in that case because it was a Bach 43(?) and Bach parts tend to be expensive and it was all silver plated.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I've seen bells in worse shape restored by Bruce Belo. Other good techs can do this. Probably a few hundred $. Will probably want to be relacquered / refinished.
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
Depending on the price to repair might be worth a new bell. IIRC they are pretty cheap for that horn.
- BillO
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="LIBrassCo"]Depending on the price to repair might be worth a new bell. IIRC they are pretty cheap for that horn.[/quote]
The cost to re and re the bell + lacquer would be in the 100-200 range anyway, plus the cost of the bell. That crease should be repairable for a whole lot less. That said, if the valve and slide are in great shape I might also consider an new bell.
The cost to re and re the bell + lacquer would be in the 100-200 range anyway, plus the cost of the bell. That crease should be repairable for a whole lot less. That said, if the valve and slide are in great shape I might also consider an new bell.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="BillO"]<QUOTE author="LIBrassCo" post_id="79725" time="1551733732" user_id="4931">
Depending on the price to repair might be worth a new bell. IIRC they are pretty cheap for that horn.[/quote]
The cost to re and re the bell + lacquer would be in the 100-200 range anyway, plus the cost of the bell. That crease should be repairable for a whole lot less. That said, if the valve and slide are in great shape I might also consider an new bell.
</QUOTE>
Actually, you might be surprised. I can definitely see this going either way as far as cost is concerned. You can actually order them lacquered and then the tech would just have to spot lacquer a new bell rather than delacquer it and then relacquer the whole thing because of the huge area affected by this crease. Probably the biggest factor is the tech you take it to; the local guys around here would charge a lot for that and more $ if you have to have it shipped off for lacquering.
Depending on the price to repair might be worth a new bell. IIRC they are pretty cheap for that horn.[/quote]
The cost to re and re the bell + lacquer would be in the 100-200 range anyway, plus the cost of the bell. That crease should be repairable for a whole lot less. That said, if the valve and slide are in great shape I might also consider an new bell.
</QUOTE>
Actually, you might be surprised. I can definitely see this going either way as far as cost is concerned. You can actually order them lacquered and then the tech would just have to spot lacquer a new bell rather than delacquer it and then relacquer the whole thing because of the huge area affected by this crease. Probably the biggest factor is the tech you take it to; the local guys around here would charge a lot for that and more $ if you have to have it shipped off for lacquering.
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
If you want a pristine bell, a new one will run you about $500 and take at least 4-6 weeks to order from C-S
Unless the rim is cracked where we can't see it, it's probably not a big deal to repair, and might not need to be relacquered.
Eric
Unless the rim is cracked where we can't see it, it's probably not a big deal to repair, and might not need to be relacquered.
Eric
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Well, Eric is about as definitive as a commenter as you can get for this! --- leaving my comments for sake of transparency!
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
Umm Eric is mistaken. $186 for a run of the mill 88H bell from Conn. Literally just looked. Im trying to figure out how to add a screenshot but I can't find it on my phone haha.
- BillO
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I think that's the wholesale price. Good if can get it though. Are you planning on installing it yourself?
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="BillO"]I think that's the wholesale price. Good if can get it though. Are you planning on installing it yourself?[/quote]
If the OP wanted me to, sure. Changing out a bell is a very easy job. I'd be happy to order him the bell, also. Techs pay the net price and shipping. How long it'd take to get is a totally different conversation.
If the OP wanted me to, sure. Changing out a bell is a very easy job. I'd be happy to order him the bell, also. Techs pay the net price and shipping. How long it'd take to get is a totally different conversation.
- BillO
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Cool, sounds like an inexpensive way to get a great horn.
As to changing a bell being easy ... while I can solder as good as the very best when it comes to PCBs, brass instruments - not so much. I'll get it soldered - make no mistake, but you may never want to look at it again. :shuffle:
As to changing a bell being easy ... while I can solder as good as the very best when it comes to PCBs, brass instruments - not so much. I'll get it soldered - make no mistake, but you may never want to look at it again. :shuffle:
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="BillO"]Cool, sounds like an inexpensive way to get a great horn.
As to changing a bell being easy ... while I can solder as good as the very best when it comes to PCBs, brass instruments - not so much. I'll get it soldered - make no mistake, but you may never want to look at it again. :shuffle:[/quote]
Lol. Its not that bad after some practice. It's harder to align everything than the soldering. When it's a really complicated project i make a jig.
As to changing a bell being easy ... while I can solder as good as the very best when it comes to PCBs, brass instruments - not so much. I'll get it soldered - make no mistake, but you may never want to look at it again. :shuffle:[/quote]
Lol. Its not that bad after some practice. It's harder to align everything than the soldering. When it's a really complicated project i make a jig.
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
No, I'm NOT mistaken! You're doing everyone a disservice if you sell at the wholesale price!
Add handling, freight, insurance, your time for researching....
I'm really thinking of pulling a power/admin move and deleting that particular post.
If you want to sell at a loss, that's your concern. NOT any other self-respecting tech here on this forum or anywhere else!
Sorry to be pissy, but that grates my nerves.
Eric
Add handling, freight, insurance, your time for researching....
I'm really thinking of pulling a power/admin move and deleting that particular post.
If you want to sell at a loss, that's your concern. NOT any other self-respecting tech here on this forum or anywhere else!
Sorry to be pissy, but that grates my nerves.
Eric
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="Bonearzt"]No, I'm NOT mistaken! You're doing everyone a disservice if you sell at the wholesale price!
Add handling, freight, insurance, your time for researching....
I'm really thinking of pulling a power/admin move and deleting that particular post.
If you want to sell at a loss, that's your concern. NOT any other self-respecting tech here on this forum or anywhere else!
Sorry to be pissy, but that grates my nerves.
Eric[/quote]
Why? I charge for my time, shop materials, shipping, tax if applicable, why do I need to charge retail on a bell if I don't want to? I have every right to sell a product at the price I choose, as do you of course. Conn Selmer got paid for their product, I got paid for my labor, nothing has been given away for free here. If you feel the need to delete that's your choice.
Add handling, freight, insurance, your time for researching....
I'm really thinking of pulling a power/admin move and deleting that particular post.
If you want to sell at a loss, that's your concern. NOT any other self-respecting tech here on this forum or anywhere else!
Sorry to be pissy, but that grates my nerves.
Eric[/quote]
Why? I charge for my time, shop materials, shipping, tax if applicable, why do I need to charge retail on a bell if I don't want to? I have every right to sell a product at the price I choose, as do you of course. Conn Selmer got paid for their product, I got paid for my labor, nothing has been given away for free here. If you feel the need to delete that's your choice.
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
Let me ask a question, what's your hourly rate? I charge $125/hr for my labor, then shop supplies. By your logic, would it not be a disservice to me if you charge less?
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Maybe what I should have said is it's not or shouldn't be public knowledge what the actual dealer price is.
Most people can roughly figure out the wholesale cost if they've spent any time in retail.
Yes you can charge whatever your customers will pay, entirely up to you.
My rate is none of your business.
Eric
Most people can roughly figure out the wholesale cost if they've spent any time in retail.
Yes you can charge whatever your customers will pay, entirely up to you.
My rate is none of your business.
Eric
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="Bonearzt"]Maybe what I should have said is it's not or shouldn't be public knowledge what the actual dealer price is.
Most people can roughly figure out the wholesale cost if they've spent any time in retail.
Yes you can charge whatever your customers will pay, entirely up to you.
My rate is none of your business.
Eric[/quote]
It was a rhetorical question. What your shop rate is has nothing to do with me. Thats my point. Same as what i charge for parts has nothing to do with you. I'm sorry if the way I do billing offends you in some way, but being upfront, honest, and having 100% transparency is how I see it. The mark up on some of this stuff is heinous (not this particular item, unusually this is in reference to bach stuff, which i don't think anyone understands why it's double to triple the price of everyone else's parts), and unless I am forced to, I see no reason to be a part of it.
Most people can roughly figure out the wholesale cost if they've spent any time in retail.
Yes you can charge whatever your customers will pay, entirely up to you.
My rate is none of your business.
Eric[/quote]
It was a rhetorical question. What your shop rate is has nothing to do with me. Thats my point. Same as what i charge for parts has nothing to do with you. I'm sorry if the way I do billing offends you in some way, but being upfront, honest, and having 100% transparency is how I see it. The mark up on some of this stuff is heinous (not this particular item, unusually this is in reference to bach stuff, which i don't think anyone understands why it's double to triple the price of everyone else's parts), and unless I am forced to, I see no reason to be a part of it.
- Bonearzt
- Posts: 833
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
True, but posting the wholesale price as you did could put other techs at a distinct disadvantage.
You can quote whatever you want to your customers, but not on a public forum!
Actual wholesale pricing from a manufacturer is NOT for you to disclose, otherwise they wouldn't have it walled off from the public at large.
I personally don't care how you bill or what you charge or how you see it, but don't step on MY nuts to try to make yourself look like a hero!!
You can quote whatever you want to your customers, but not on a public forum!
Actual wholesale pricing from a manufacturer is NOT for you to disclose, otherwise they wouldn't have it walled off from the public at large.
I personally don't care how you bill or what you charge or how you see it, but don't step on MY nuts to try to make yourself look like a hero!!
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="Bonearzt"]True, but posting the wholesale price as you did could put other techs at a distinct disadvantage.
You can quote whatever you want to your customers, but not on a public forum!
Actual wholesale pricing from a manufacturer is NOT for you to disclose, otherwise they wouldn't have it walled off from the public at large.
I personally don't care how you bill or what you charge or how you see it, but don't step on MY nuts to try to make yourself look like a hero!![/quote]
Yes and no. Look at OE Thayer, instrument innovations, and the like. They are selling at essentially wholesale price to the public. My point being these kinds of prices are essentially public knowledge already.
With what i charge an hour, I'm no ones hero! At the end of the day im probably charging more, not less, just listed in a different way. Your nuts are safe! :lol:
You can quote whatever you want to your customers, but not on a public forum!
Actual wholesale pricing from a manufacturer is NOT for you to disclose, otherwise they wouldn't have it walled off from the public at large.
I personally don't care how you bill or what you charge or how you see it, but don't step on MY nuts to try to make yourself look like a hero!![/quote]
Yes and no. Look at OE Thayer, instrument innovations, and the like. They are selling at essentially wholesale price to the public. My point being these kinds of prices are essentially public knowledge already.
With what i charge an hour, I'm no ones hero! At the end of the day im probably charging more, not less, just listed in a different way. Your nuts are safe! :lol:
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="Bonearzt"]Well, that's THEIR prerogative.[/quote]
I agree, that's my point. A company can charge what they want. Part, labor, it doesnt matter. So like I said, I charge $186 plus shipping for the bell, if I'm the one installing it. It shouldnt matter where I say it, unless of course there's some policy against it here that I'm not aware of.
I agree, that's my point. A company can charge what they want. Part, labor, it doesnt matter. So like I said, I charge $186 plus shipping for the bell, if I'm the one installing it. It shouldnt matter where I say it, unless of course there's some policy against it here that I'm not aware of.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Yeah, no violation of our terms of service. If CS forbids such knowledge being public we can obviously comply with taking it down if they'd like. That said, I don't think this knowledge does anything to hurt you Eric; the old adage of the piece of machinery being broken at a company... they hire someone to come in and they tap it with a hammer and fix it... company gets a bill of $10000 and demand for it to be itemized, to which the technician responds with:
Hammer: $2
Knowing where to hit with the hammer: $9800
I know that the local shop here revealed to me a lot of Yamaha pricing to be quite inexpesnve so I've actually been fixing up and trying out a number of Yamaha horns (and a few others that can be compatible) that I otherwise wouldn't have even considered. They've been making a... not smal amount of money... off of me in repairs recently and I've fixed up numerous horns. I know if I would have been using say, Shires parts it would have been completely infeasible. (E.g. got a new crook installed for ~$150 total I believe because the part was like $10, whereas from Shires that same operation would have been like $400 because the crook itself is expensive). So the shop got $140 off of me that I wouldn't have otherwise spent.
Hammer: $2
Knowing where to hit with the hammer: $9800
I know that the local shop here revealed to me a lot of Yamaha pricing to be quite inexpesnve so I've actually been fixing up and trying out a number of Yamaha horns (and a few others that can be compatible) that I otherwise wouldn't have even considered. They've been making a... not smal amount of money... off of me in repairs recently and I've fixed up numerous horns. I know if I would have been using say, Shires parts it would have been completely infeasible. (E.g. got a new crook installed for ~$150 total I believe because the part was like $10, whereas from Shires that same operation would have been like $400 because the crook itself is expensive). So the shop got $140 off of me that I wouldn't have otherwise spent.
- Backbone
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Apr 08, 2018
[quote="Badgerm"]https://photos.app.goo.gl/qdxHoG8GqwxL7jAh8
I’m getting this 88h for free but I will need to help the bell out...
What would you have done and how much do you project your repair idea to cost?
Thanks.[/quote]
Definitely possible to fix.
<YOUTUBE id="5tIsenuUx_c">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tIsenuUx_c</YOUTUBE>
I’m getting this 88h for free but I will need to help the bell out...
What would you have done and how much do you project your repair idea to cost?
Thanks.[/quote]
Definitely possible to fix.
<YOUTUBE id="5tIsenuUx_c">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tIsenuUx_c</YOUTUBE>
- Doubler
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Jan 07, 2019
Great video! I'd seen it before, but I enjoyed watching it again.
- trombonedemon
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Aug 06, 2018
What a fulfilling job!!
- BillO
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Until you get that customer that complains because it's not perfect. The wonders of unreasonable expectations.
- Bach42t
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Aug 11, 2018
[quote="BillO"]Until you get that customer that complains because it's not perfect. The wonders of unreasonable expectations.[/quote]
I absolutely have done that with Conn-Selmer and sent horns in for warranty repair when they did not arrive to me absolutely perfect. You are almost guaranteed to not get it 100% the first time with them, so I exercise the warranty and they do make it perfect the second go around. For that, they are really a great company honoring their warranty. I do believe perfection is warranted when the premium is paid for buying new.
I absolutely have done that with Conn-Selmer and sent horns in for warranty repair when they did not arrive to me absolutely perfect. You are almost guaranteed to not get it 100% the first time with them, so I exercise the warranty and they do make it perfect the second go around. For that, they are really a great company honoring their warranty. I do believe perfection is warranted when the premium is paid for buying new.
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
As a guy who depends heavily on professional repair techs and wants many of them to continue to be around in the future, I know I don't appreciate it when one of them screws over the others. Please act like a professional! (And ask C-S whether they want you to post that info.) Thank you.