Hey all I hope that everyone’s doing well so far this time of year. As the title suggests I’m curious about valsalva maneuver and whatever input/experiences you all may have.

A little background, I’ve had this playing issue for 4 going on 5 years now. When I had first developed it it was just a very small issue that occurred every now and then. Somehow as time went on it got worse and I do believe that this is due to my nature as a human which is to overthink certain things and try to understand what I don’t know. And in doing so I feel that I made it worse. Nowadays it’s all over the place and I find that I have to air start a lot, if not all, of my notes in order to be able to play. Normally this wouldn’t be a problem but my starts of notes when I’m able to use the tongue are so much better than when I have to air start which I feel is an issue for whenever I take auditions in the future. I mostly say this because air starting high notes ,at least for me, is not fun and often makes me feel like I’m working harder than I need to (which I realize may just be a me problem with efficiency rather than something stemming from Valsalva)

So with that being said I wanted to ask the community what advice do yall have for dealing with this? I know there are some professionals that have this and still were able to win jobs and I know that this is also something that makes a lot of people drop music altogether. When I say advice too I mean anything that could help, are there teachers that can help with this specific issue that aren’t going to break my wallet? Is there not really a unanimous way to get out of this and it’s more of a personal journey? Why does it happen? Is it really the glottis locking up or the tongue how do I figure that out? Could it be a buildup of too much pressure, if so how do I fix that? Has this always been a big issue or is this becoming a growing issue in brass playing and if it is a growing issue why could that be? are there any studies currently being done regarding this issue? Is it really just a mental game or is there some physical aspect to it as well? I mostly just want to talk about this and see what’s laid on the table. I want to note that having this issue has not wavered my love for what I do. While it has been tough, I still love this career enough to see it through regardless. I also wanted to add that I don’t expect to find a miracle in these comments, as I mentioned earlier I just really want to see what’s out there in this community. My eventual goal is to become a university professor and have my own studio but I often feel like “spoiled goods” because of this issue and worry I’m not going to be able to provide the best for my future students as a professor that can’t even start a simple Note. I also just want to have as many tools as possible to help/prevent this issue from occurring with students I may encounter in the future.

Hopefully this gets some traction but I also understand if this is a topic with not a lot of information.

Sounds to me like in your case it's a symptom of other stuff not being right.

"air starting high notes ,at least for me, is not fun and often makes me feel like I’m working harder than I need to (which I realize may just be a me problem with efficiency rather than something stemming from Valsalva)"

You nailed it right there.

I do agree that air starting in the high register being difficult for me is a different problem but the main thing of this is that I mostly have to air starting every note I play because I feel this buildup of pressure that leads to me feeling locked up

First of all, you're not alone, and you're not damaged goods. One of the finest trombone players I know - who has an excellent university teaching job - took and won auditions while he was dealing with exactly this problem and starting every phrase with a breath attack. Now he can start with his tongue, but it took time to get back there.

Just yesterday I attended a masterclass by the wonderful trumpet soloist Stephen Burns, who teaches at DePaul and Northwestern Universities. He said he is seeing this type of hesitation as a growing problem. He even used the word "epidemic." I am also seeing it more and more in the course of my teaching.

I don't think this issue has a single cause, so you're not going to find a universal solution. That said, one pervasive pattern I see is that it often starts at the point when a student becomes "serious" about playing - when they have goals they are working toward, and especially when they are considering the consequences of how well they perform at auditions.

High-stakes auditions are happening earlier and earlier in the lives of ambitious young musicians, and IMO it's a problem; we need to be playing music for the fun and joy of it from day one and for the rest of our lives. Why do we commit ourselves to this generally low-earning-potential career if not because we love it?

Anyway, the root of this part of the problem is anxiety, which is making us question the quality of every note we play. You can't start with a question; you need to start with a statement. "The phrase starts NOW."

Which brings me to Stephen's solution, which is also the core of mine: rhythm. Commit to rhythm. He told one of the students to play in a rock band and go for it when someone hands them a tambourine. He kept dancing during the class, trying to get students to play with that sense of motion.

If you can find a workshop in Dalcroze Eurhythmics, TAKE IT. If you don't know what that is, google it.

The Carmine Caruso method is also fantastic for this because it puts tone production in a rhythmic context ALWAYS. Check out the videos by Julie Landsman: https://www.julielandsman.com/gallery

And by all means, keep doing air starts and getting them to work in all registers - that's great for your playing whether you're dealing with hesitations or not. Doug can help you with this in a Skype or Zoom lesson.

Finally, I will give you one thing to try that many brass teachers would take issue with, but it worked for me to adjust the timing of my tongue, and it's working for my students. Set yourself up to do an exercise like the Caruso Six Notes (see Julie's video), tap your foot ahead of time by at least 4 beats, and then when it comes time to play the first note, bring your tongue into position for the articulation EXACTLY a half beat ahead of when you want to the note to speak. Try it without the instrument; say "1, 2, 3, 4 N-Ta" The N happens exactly on the and of 4. Try it again and put it on the 4th 16th of beat 4.

For the record, I'm not saying to play this way for the rest of your life; I'm saying to try this to get yourself out of the tongue lock habit by applying rhythm to the preparatory motion of the tongue - the backswing if you will.

The inspiration for this exercise, and for my own exploration of the tip of the Caruso iceberg, was the late great Sam "Sabutin" Burtis, RIP. https://www.trombone.org/articles/articles.php alphabetical by first name

Very interesting discussion and I would not really dare to say I have much valuable input.

As I have at some point gone through kind of similar challenges, just some thoughts:

- Anything that simplifies your playing will potentially help. The more you try to control x amount of movements, muscles etc., the more complicated it will get and these kind of issues may occur

- This could mean that it can help isolating certain aspects and not trying to do everything at the same time

- Also one thing that overall helped me a lot: Get used to continue playing also when something gets wrong. I don't know if this applies to you, but if I you always interrupt your practice (like a Bordogni etude, scale whatever) when one note doesn't respond, you will get into a loop of a lot of self-doubt which can then emphasize phenomenons like the one you describe

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Sounds to me like in your case it's a symptom of other stuff not being right.[/quote]

Yes, I have personal experience with this too. In past lessons I've taken with Doug we've worked on not hesitating the initial attack. I still have to pay attention to this in my warm ups.

I recently was helping a very fine trumpet player who was taking some auditions and struggling with this. I noticed that with every initial attack he took he would start with his horn on his lips in one position and then as he tried to make the attack he would bring the horn angle to another. Once he was playing and the instrument was at the correct angle he was fine. Getting him to start with the horn in playing position before he even took a breath stopped the hesitation.

[quote="GabrielRice"]Anyway, the root of this part of the problem is anxiety, which is making us question the quality of every note we play.[/quote]

Sure, but I think there's often a "chicken/egg" sort of thing here. Does the anxiety cause the attack hesitation or is the attack hesitation a symptom of something else that is causing the anxiety? When I'm teaching and trying to help someone with this I want to be able to help with both, so I think it's worth approaching it both with proper playing mechanics as well as a more positive mind set.

[quote="GabrielRice"]Finally, I will give you one thing to try that many brass teachers would take issue with, but it worked for me to adjust the timing of my tongue, and it's working for my students. Set yourself up to do an exercise like the Caruso Six Notes (see Julie's video), tap your foot ahead of time by at least 4 beats, and then when it comes time to play the first note, bring your tongue into position for the articulation EXACTLY a half beat ahead of when you want to the note to speak.[/quote]

I guess I'm one of those brass teachers. What concerns me with this approach is that we're not address the hesitation itself head on, we're just timing it in so that we can cover up the issue. It certainly can help to work on timing, but I prefer to try to do so without potentially reinforcing the hesitation.

[quote="MStarke"]- Anything that simplifies your playing will potentially help. The more you try to control x amount of movements, muscles etc., the more complicated it will get and these kind of issues may occur

- This could mean that it can help isolating certain aspects and not trying to do everything at the same time[/quote]

We don't really want to multitask when we play, so if you can identify the source of the hesitation spend some time practicing only addressing that. A lot of playing problems can be traced back to trying to think about too much at once. The other side of this is that you will want to try to address the actual issue and make the necessary corrections. A lot of playing problems can also be traced back to not understanding how to actually play correctly.

It's also worth considering the conditioned response that we can develop. Arnold Jacobs, for one example, noted that students develop a habit of playing a certain way and any time the horn is brought up to the lips that habit is impossible to interrupt. By introducing strangeness into the equation it can feel different. For example, try flipping your horn over and playing it left handed. Or remove the instrument, which triggers the habit, and practice the technique in some way away from the instrument. As you develop the correct habit you bring the instrument back and practice introducing the new habit.

Dave

In college, I went through a period where I stopped playing due to tension and engaging the Valsalva maneuver. My teachers at the time didn't have much experience working with students who were incapacitated by this, so I had to do a lot of experimentation to learn how to play without engaging the thoughts, muscles, and sensations involved with the Valsalva maneuver.

1. I learned that breathing is separated into two parts: inhale and exhale. Each uses different muscles. Do the "body learning" necessary to locate and identify these two different processes. Inhale involves the tension in the diaphragm and the set of intercostals that help the ribcage expand. Exhalation involves the abdominal muscles and a different set of intercostals that help the ribcage contract.

The entire inhale-exhale process is one unified thing though, like a wheel that is painted one-half one color and the other half is another color. The wheel continues to turn while you're playing: breathe in, blow out.

Much later I discovered David Vining's The Breathing Book that explains and accurately describes the breathing process. It's worth it: www.mountainpeakmusic.com. There are other books, videos, etc. out there, but it's a good start.

2. l learned to relax my tongue and throat while playing by using flutter-tongue. I then developed and started to use a very soft, almost "leaky" legato.

If you can flutter-tongue, great. If not, don't worry about it.

The "leaky" legato is when I would place the very tip of my tongue against the hard palate to start a note. My tongue was soft, but the tip was pointed to allow air to pass through. I would then blow out and sound a note (like an air start) while keeping the tongue in place. I found that being mindful of the feeling of relaxation in the tongue and the throat while blowing out was important.

(In fact, you can breathe in quickly and efficiently without disturbing the embouchure by allowing the corners to relax and sucking air in around the tongue. It decreases movement of the mouthpiece and the embouchure, which helps with the starts of notes.)

3. I developed the feeling of "blowing the tongue out of the way" to start notes. To me, the tongue doesn't start a note. The air passing through the lips to make them vibrate is what starts a note. The tongue is just mechanism that releases the air, which then starts passes through the lips which then vibrate, etc.

4. Change and add to your vocabulary (and the way you think about) articulation, the use of the tongue, breathing, etc.

Support = air flow, not muscular tension.

I use the word "release--as in the release of air--to describe the action of articulation. (I know this is different from the way many teachers and conductors use the word "release," i.e., to denote the ending of a note.) It's a gentler word to describe a subtle set of physical actions.

Articulation is a word that refers to the very beginning of a note. I avoid the work "attack" when talking about the beginning of a note. Sometimes I call it the left edge of a note. That applies to the very first note after a breath as well as the rest of the notes that are played within a breath.

& & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & &

I'm sure that some people will disagree with what I've written. I admit it might not be pedagogically sound or correct. It's what helped me with getting over the Valsalva maneuver. I hope it helps you.

This is a take on this topic from a while back.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.musicforbrass.com/articles/ ... euver.html">https://www.musicforbrass.com/articles/valsalva-maneuver.html</LINK_TEXT>

[quote="Kbiggs"]I'm sure that some people will disagree with what I've written. I admit it might not be pedagogically sound or correct. It's what helped me with getting over the Valsalva maneuver. I hope it helps you.[/quote]

For what it's worth, I can't quibble with anything, and you know I like to. I also like Vining's stuff. In addition to The Breathing Book I also like What Every Trombonist Should Know About the Body. Your points about the terminology we use also hits home, I'm going to try to adopt that more.

So I played around with your "leaky legato" articulations a bit, just to see what it did for me. I was able to get a start to the note with almost an "sss" tongue placement where my tongue tip would flutter once and then be drawn down as the note started. I think that's sort of what you were describing? It worked pretty well in the middle and low registers for me and I think this is worth exploring, CrisHagmannBone.

Playing around with it reminded me of [url=https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=279598#p279598]this post on another topic. Maximilien described "tere tere" tonguing there and it might be worth playing around with An unfamiliar tonguing approach might interrupt the conditioned response to hold back the tongue/air.

Dave

[quote="Wilktone"]

For what it's worth, I can't quibble with anything, and you know I like to. I also like Vining's stuff. In addition to The Breathing Book I also like What Every Trombonist Should Know About the Body. Your points about the terminology we use also hits home, I'm going to try to adopt that more.[/quote]

High praise, indeed. Thanks.

[quote="Wilktone"]So I played around with your "leaky legato" articulations a bit, just to see what it did for me. I was able to get a start to the note with almost an "sss" tongue placement where my tongue tip would flutter once and then be drawn down as the note started. I think that's sort of what you were describing? It worked pretty well in the middle and low registers for me and I think this is worth exploring, CrisHagmannBone.[/quote]

Yes, that’s the idea. It’s an intervening step.

[quote="Wilktone"]

Playing around with it reminded me of [url=https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=279598#p279598]this post on another topic. Maximilien described "tere tere" tonguing there and it might be worth playing around with An unfamiliar tonguing approach might interrupt the conditioned response to hold back the tongue/air.

Dave[/quote]

I’ve never experimented around with this intervening step with a thought towards developing a more useful “multiple articulation.” I’ll have to try it.

Nice to see so many thoughtful posts on a topic that polarised opinion in the past. Bravo to all.

I've had students who struggled with that. One had been trying to solve it for some time before starting with me. In that case it improved by addressing fundamental issues in the technique that were not about starting notes or articulations specifically.

This problem can be caused, for example by an embouchure problem. If someone is constantly shifting between two different embouchures for different registers, that will often cause them to struggle with tone and splitting notes and notes not speaking, among other symptoms. Then they develop anxiety around their playing and sometimes particularly about starting notes, because there is always that uncertainty about whether the note will speak, split or have a bad tone. Then they think they have a problem with starting notes and they start focusing on trying to solve that, which only leads to more anxiety and more difficulty, and starting doing things with the tongue and throat that are making that symptom worse. In a case like this I find that addressing the root cause, which might actually not even be about starting notes in the first place, can allow to break this vicious circle and get some improvement, that leads to increased confidence and reduced fear.

Exactly. It's a symptom, and addressing it as the problem only makes it worse because you never fix the actual problem.

A big part of it is thinking you need to build air pressure:

"Is it really the glottis locking up or the tongue how do I figure that out? Could it be a buildup of too much pressure, if so how do I fix that? "

Too much air pressure? It's air flow that you need, not pressure.

Think about using N as a starting articulation. How do you say "n"? The air flow starts first... no pressure buildup is even possible. THAT's how you should play.

But it sounds like there are other potential issues too.

[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="285195" time="1757514337" user_id="102">
Anyway, the root of this part of the problem is anxiety, which is making us question the quality of every note we play.[/quote]

Sure, but I think there's often a "chicken/egg" sort of thing here. Does the anxiety cause the attack hesitation or is the attack hesitation a symptom of something else that is causing the anxiety? When I'm teaching and trying to help someone with this I want to be able to help with both, so I think it's worth approaching it both with proper playing mechanics as well as a more positive mind set.</QUOTE>

It took me a couple of readings to understand your distinction...I said the root of this part of the problem, not necessarily the entire problem. Here I am talking specifically about hesitations that start at the point in life when a student decides to "get serious" about playing the trombone. Which I have seen many times.

<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="285195" time="1757514337" user_id="102">
Finally, I will give you one thing to try that many brass teachers would take issue with, but it worked for me to adjust the timing of my tongue, and it's working for my students. Set yourself up to do an exercise like the Caruso Six Notes (see Julie's video), tap your foot ahead of time by at least 4 beats, and then when it comes time to play the first note, bring your tongue into position for the articulation EXACTLY a half beat ahead of when you want to the note to speak.

I guess I'm one of those brass teachers. What concerns me with this approach is that we're not address the hesitation itself head on, we're just timing it in so that we can cover up the issue. It certainly can help to work on timing, but I prefer to try to do so without potentially reinforcing the hesitation.</QUOTE>

But a hesitation is fundamentally a timing problem. Bringing attention to the timing is beneficial on every level, mechanical and musical.

And as I said, I make it 1000% percent clear to my students that I am not recommending that this advance placement of the tongue become the way they play all the time. This is a process to go through to change the hesitation habit and replace it with a better habit that involves putting rhythm front and center BEFORE the first note they play. Forever. Which, again, is beneficial for every aspect of music-making.

That's not to say there may not be other problems of mechanics to deal with.

[quote="Wilktone"]

Playing around with it reminded me of [url=https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=279598#p279598]this post on another topic. Maximilien described "tere tere" tonguing there and it might be worth playing around with An unfamiliar tonguing approach might interrupt the conditioned response to hold back the tongue/air.

Dave[/quote]

Not precisely on topic, but I recently watched a video by Lobke Sprenkeling and she mentioned tere articulation.

She said she struggled with it, and when she was teaching in Spain the students found it easy. She attributed this to growing up in the Netherlands where the R is back in the throat, as opposed to the flipped R in Spain.

I've tried the tere and found if not careful I move my jaw.

There is also The Complete Articulator by Kees Boeke, but it's pretty specific to recorder playing.

[quote="GabrielRice"]It took me a couple of readings to understand your distinction...I said the root of this part of the problem, not necessarily the entire problem. Here I am talking specifically about hesitations that start at the point in life when a student decides to "get serious" about playing the trombone. Which I have seen many times.[/quote]

Sure. I really didn't do a good job of explaining that I really wanted to just add some additional nuance to what you pointed out.

But I do think it's worth considering about whether the issue was present before the student "got serious." When a musician becomes more interested in playing well they will start to evaluate their playing and work on fixing problems. And as a musician begins to play a lot more, issues that were minor before can become much worse as the improper technique becomes habituated and chops tire down from lots of playing.

So is the anxiety caused because they are more serious now or is their new interest in sounding good making them anxious because they have a technique flaw that isn't going away on its own?

[quote="GabrielRice"]But a hesitation is fundamentally a timing problem. Bringing attention to the timing is beneficial on every level, mechanical and musical.[/quote]

Yeah, maybe? Maybe it will allow them to articulate the initial attack on time, but it's not really addressing the issue, just training them to hesitate earlier.

Sometimes as we're working on things we do need to cover up the problem in rehearsals and performances, I don't take issue with that. Do what you need to to get by, but just remember that what you're doing is not a good long term fix and in the practice room work on eliminating the cause.

[quote="timothy42b"]There is also The Complete Articulator by Kees Boeke, but it's pretty specific to recorder playing.[/quote]

Interesting. My mother played in a recorder consort for a while. I'll have to ask her if she's familiar with this book and if she has it.

Dave

[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="285291" time="1757684270" user_id="211">
There is also The Complete Articulator by Kees Boeke, but it's pretty specific to recorder playing.[/quote]

Interesting. My mother played in a recorder consort for a while. I'll have to ask her if she's familiar with this book and if she has it.

Dave
</QUOTE>

Dave,

I have a friend at church that is trying to start a recorder consort and I've been trying to develop enough technique to play with him.

From what I've read, there are three books that are pretty basic: Rooda's 95 Dexterity exercises, Staeps's The Daily Lesson, and Boeke's the Complete Articulator.

It seems to me that Boeke focuses more on baroque correct interpretation - which notes get strong or weak articulation. But there's a lot of technique in his exercises.

Staeps is kind of unique in telling us how many seconds each exercise should take - sets a goal that is supposedly achieveable, though at this point I'm not close.

I wanted to ask what some of you all may think about this. Knowing that a part of this could be mental could it be possible that one could focus more on the muscles from the throat rather than what’s going on with the lips before playing. I only ask because recently I’ve been noticing that there’s a lot of tension in my throat and in the back of my neck when I play and when I started focusing on the lips rather than my throat it helped a little. Obviously it isn’t a solution but I wanted to ask for some feedback on that

Yes…

And it’s important to be aware of what your tongue and throat do when you are playing with both more and less tension. You have to know where to look—you have to correctly identify the problem—in order to discover a solution that isn’t just addressing (or chasing) the symptoms.

Be aware of what the back of the tongue and the throat feel like and what they are doing when you are playing with tension. Do your best to consciously relax them. At the same time, allow yourself to focus more on the lips and the tip of the tongue. This is where your focus needs to be when you are re-learning how to start notes after engaging in the Valsalva maneuver.

Another thing I forgot to mention in my first pose above: When getting ready to play, make sure the lips touch. They have to touch in order to vibrate against each other.

Sometimes people will learn play with the teeth very open in the mistaken belief that this will give them a dark sound. (Never mind that the trombone is mainly cylindrical which tends towards brighter sounds…) While open teeth do promote a dark sound, it’s a shortcut that leads to a poor result: a woofy sound that doesn’t carry. It’s then very easy to allow another bad habit to creep in: starting each note with the lips open because the teeth are too open.

If the teeth/lips are too open, then the body will find another way to create sufficient air pressure in order to start notes. Keep your teeth open no more than about the tip of your pinky. Unfortunately, one of the easiest paths the body takes is the Valsalva maneuver. It certainly builds up pressure, but in the wrong area.

As brass players, we don’t want to build up pressure. The inhale is similar to the backswing in tennis, golf, or baseball, etc. It’s the preparation to the purpose: to hit the ball or, in our case, to allow sufficient air to pass through the lips to start a note. But tennis, golf, baseball players don’t hold their backswing. The backswing—our inhale—is immediately followed by the swing—our exhale, or blowing air out. There’s no break, just one smooth motion.

In another thread, Doug Elliott suggested a syllable than can sometimes help put the tongue in the proper shape and position in this and other instances: think “Nee-nee-nee-nee neeeee” when starting notes. This helps promote a relaxed tongue.

[quote="CrisHagmannBone"]I wanted to ask what some of you all may think about this. Knowing that a part of this could be mental could it be possible that one could focus more on the muscles from the throat rather than what’s going on with the lips before playing. I only ask because recently I’ve been noticing that there’s a lot of tension in my throat and in the back of my neck when I play and when I started focusing on the lips rather than my throat it helped a little. Obviously it isn’t a solution but I wanted to ask for some feedback on that[/quote]

I'd want to watch you play to see if there are any additional clues other than what you've mentioned here. We often talk about tension in the "throat," but that can mean different things to different musicians.

What do you mean by tension in your throat? You're engaging your voice? Bottling up the air with the glottis? Engaging the neck muscles? Are you having trouble swallowing normally? Once you've attacked the pitch and are sustaining a note is the issue still present?

I think I had this long time ago but not sure. Anyway I noticed some noise in the throat. And all I did was to focus on have the throat open. All the time. The noise from the throat did disappear in fact immediately. Not sure this will help but it can't hurt trying. Easier to breathe both in and out.

Leif

This problem is why I quit being a music major and became a lawyer instead. I stilled playing trombone for twenty years. Only after reading a thread by the late Sam Burtis was I able to solve this problem. I concentrate on breathing and rhythm before my attack and I no longer have the problem. I think someone referenced Sam Burtis earlier in this thread. His approach really works…….now gotta practice before I go to bed!