I was wondering if anyone has encountered this before. I have a student who I noticed articulates with their air, but when we started to work on tonguing I started by having them say the word "too." They couldn't figure out how to place their tongue correctly.

I know this student has issues with speech, just by hearing them talk. They can't make their "R" sounds along with "T." They couldn't say the words total, tin or trombone correctly. There might be more speech issues, but that's just what I noticed in conversation.

Is there anything I can do to help this student articulate correctly? I'm obviously not a speech therapist, and don't feel comfortable trying to change the way this student talks, but it's making the trombone much harder to play correctly.

Do I just accept that's how they are, knowing they're not going to be a musician outside of high school band and just move on? I'm just not sure where to go with this.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

I would try otber consonants... n or s maybe. Is this student working with a speech therapist?

Dave Wilkin's wife is a speech therapist, maybe he'll contribute

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Is this student working with a speech therapist?[/quote]
He is not. And I found myself uncomfortable even bringing that up. I'm sure there's a nicer way to recommend it than what popped into my head yesterday during our lesson.

And for what it's worth, this student is a junior in high school. So they're 16-17 years old.

[quote="JLivi"]They can't make their "R" sounds along with "T." They couldn't say the words total, tin or trombone correctly. There might be more speech issues, but that's just what I noticed in conversation.[/quote]

What IS coming out when they say these words?

when we started to work on tonguing I started by having them say the word "too."

Speech impediment or not, tongue with "tah" not "too".

[quote="robcat2075"]

Speech impediment or not, tongue with "tah" not "too".[/quote]

Depends on the register, really. It could be tah, toh, too, tee, ter. There is no single sound that equates to every way you articulate, because the tongue position controls both vowels and registers.

Can't say I've actually had a student do this, but I have asked if they've ever blown spitballs through a straw. Might be worth a try.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="285894" time="1758410687" user_id="3697">

Speech impediment or not, tongue with "tah" not "too".[/quote]

Depends on the register, really. It could be tah, toh, too, tee, ter. There is no single sound that equates to every way you articulate, because the tongue position controls both vowels and registers.
</QUOTE>

And also the individual player's anatomy. I sometimes describe the vowel shape of the tongue arch in broader terms. It's a continuum anyway, at what point does "ah" become "ee?"

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I would try otber consonants... n or s maybe. Is this student working with a speech therapist?

Dave Wilkin's wife is a speech therapist, maybe he'll contribute[/quote]

I asked her and she read through the OP. She thought it seemed unusual and serious enough that she recommended a consult with a speech therapist. There is a condition called speech apraxia that she wouldn't even try to diagnose by reading a second hand forum post, but she mentioned it is a possibility.

Is this a student in the public schools? I would have thought that this student's issues would have been identified at a younger age and referred to speech therapy when they were younger. If this student is in a public school they would qualify for speech therapy, otherwise the parents would likely need to pay for private therapy.

Since we're trombone teachers and not speech therapists I think the best advice here so far is to try out different consonants and see which one might work best. Other than that, a conversation with your student's parents to mention your thoughts and suggest that your student visit a speech therapist and see if it would be a good fit. Speech therapy may be seen as a stigma, particularly with older students who see it as something for "little kids" or "special education," but in the public schools here in the U.S. it is something that students have a right to be made available to them.

Dave

[quote="Wilktone"]And also the individual player's anatomy. I sometimes describe the vowel shape of the tongue arch in broader terms. It's a continuum anyway, at what point does "ah" become "ee?"[/quote]

This is definitely true.

This thread reminds me of a two things that may or may not be useful but might be worth thinking about anyway:

1 - There are embouchure types that do not use the tip of the tongue to articulate.

2 - I went through the U.S. Army School Of Music in 2006, and I remember a particularly good trumpet instructor (I wish I could remember his name; he was a Navy instructor) who suggested a pretty specific and unique way to think about articulating: place the tongue flat against the hard palette with the tip on the back of the front teeth; then peel the tongue off the hard palette, peeling from the tip back. Obviously this will not be right for many people (everything articulation depends on anatomy) but for me it made me think about how to really control the explosiveness of an articulation, because the air gets released all at the same time when the tongue "peels" to the right level and releases from the hard palette. Different people probably will get their own unique and possibly useful observations from this kind of exercise. This is NOT how I articulate now, but the simple direction to try something different and see what happens was pretty cool.

In the last few years I've noticed more speech issues with high school students than I remember seeing pre-pandemic. I wonder if some of the "normal" course of diagnosis and therapy was disrupted in 2020 and 2021.