Concert-Band Instrumentation
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
Is there anything like a standard concert-band instrumentation? Every time I play in one, there seems to be a real overload of one particular instrument, and not enough of another, in the current band I play in, there are 10 trombones, which has to be utter overkill.
Even amateur symphony orchestras don't seem to vary their section sizes greatly (you don't have 3 tubas, say), what is it about concert bands that makes the organizers indifferent as to whether they have 4 flutes, or 8?
Also, how do amateur (in the sense of not-paying) concert bands effectively manage the problem of weaker players? In the couple I play in, one is very much a community band, and allows anyone with a pulse and a willingness to show up play in it (which I totally respect), the other casts a wider net and attracts better players, but there are yawning gaps in the quality of the sections and players (inability to read key signatures, remember rhythms from one week to the next, and especially older players whose hearing and sense of pitch are fading). In this latter band, you could cut a couple players from every section and the ensemble would be immediately improved.
How do the better concert bands negotiate these waters?
Even amateur symphony orchestras don't seem to vary their section sizes greatly (you don't have 3 tubas, say), what is it about concert bands that makes the organizers indifferent as to whether they have 4 flutes, or 8?
Also, how do amateur (in the sense of not-paying) concert bands effectively manage the problem of weaker players? In the couple I play in, one is very much a community band, and allows anyone with a pulse and a willingness to show up play in it (which I totally respect), the other casts a wider net and attracts better players, but there are yawning gaps in the quality of the sections and players (inability to read key signatures, remember rhythms from one week to the next, and especially older players whose hearing and sense of pitch are fading). In this latter band, you could cut a couple players from every section and the ensemble would be immediately improved.
How do the better concert bands negotiate these waters?
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
The best groups I've played in have been 1 to a part. I stopped playing in community bands for this reason, and started a chamber group. 10 is way too many, in my opinion.
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
[quote="hyperbolica"]The best groups I've played in have been 1 to a part. I stopped playing in community bands for this reason, and started a chamber group. 10 is way too many, in my opinion.[/quote]
Exactly, how can 4 trombones ever be too few?
Exactly, how can 4 trombones ever be too few?
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Some people delineate "wind ensemble" as meaning one on a part, and "concert band" as meaning multiple on a part. Not sure how historically accurate that distinction is, but at the end of the day orchestras are expected to be one on a part except for the strings, whereas wind bands being truly one on a part is probably rarer than having doubling everywhere.
Professional concert bands like the DC military bands are usually pretty standardized, with the brass looking like 4 trombones, 4-5 horns, 2 euphs, 2-3 tubas, 6 trumpets. That's also how it was in the IU Wind Ensemble when I was there, while the lower bands had a ton more.
I think the nature of most concert bands being community groups where you have a lot of people wanting to play means that there is no real standard at that level apart from using all the players you have available, even if that means there are 12 trumpets but only 4 horns.
There is also a huge variation in what the repertoire requires. There are small pieces like Hammersmith and humongous pieces like Dionysiaques or Barnes 3. Some pieces have no divisi in the euph or tuba part and can easily be done with one player each, others have important divisi all over the place or separate 1st and 2nd parts. Some pieces just have 3 trumpet parts, many 20th century works have 3 cornets and 2 trumpets, and a few have even more (Barnes 3 has 3 cornets, 3 trumpets, and 2 flugelhorns). Some pieces have 3 trombone parts while others have 4. There's plenty of variations in the woodwinds parts too. So it makes sense to have the players you need to cover most of that if you can.
Professional concert bands like the DC military bands are usually pretty standardized, with the brass looking like 4 trombones, 4-5 horns, 2 euphs, 2-3 tubas, 6 trumpets. That's also how it was in the IU Wind Ensemble when I was there, while the lower bands had a ton more.
I think the nature of most concert bands being community groups where you have a lot of people wanting to play means that there is no real standard at that level apart from using all the players you have available, even if that means there are 12 trumpets but only 4 horns.
There is also a huge variation in what the repertoire requires. There are small pieces like Hammersmith and humongous pieces like Dionysiaques or Barnes 3. Some pieces have no divisi in the euph or tuba part and can easily be done with one player each, others have important divisi all over the place or separate 1st and 2nd parts. Some pieces just have 3 trumpet parts, many 20th century works have 3 cornets and 2 trumpets, and a few have even more (Barnes 3 has 3 cornets, 3 trumpets, and 2 flugelhorns). Some pieces have 3 trombone parts while others have 4. There's plenty of variations in the woodwinds parts too. So it makes sense to have the players you need to cover most of that if you can.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
One community band I was in took anybody who wanted to join and had a lop-sided trumpet-heavy membership and smatterings of everything else. It never had a perfect instrumentation.
Another was a real wind ensemble, one to a part mostly, that you had to be invited to join. The wind ensemble sounded far better than the community band but after about three years it fizzled out as talented players found better things to do.
Meanwhile, 30 years later, that community band is still there, making do with what they have and keepin' keepin' on.
With one-to-a-part you have a problem when someone doesn't show for rehearsal or quits. With the whoever-shows-up plan it's not a problem because you were never doing anything that depended on one person anyway.
Another was a real wind ensemble, one to a part mostly, that you had to be invited to join. The wind ensemble sounded far better than the community band but after about three years it fizzled out as talented players found better things to do.
Meanwhile, 30 years later, that community band is still there, making do with what they have and keepin' keepin' on.
With one-to-a-part you have a problem when someone doesn't show for rehearsal or quits. With the whoever-shows-up plan it's not a problem because you were never doing anything that depended on one person anyway.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]I think the nature of most concert bands being community groups where you have a lot of people wanting to play means that there is no real standard at that level apart from using all the players you have available, even if that means there are 12 trumpets but only 4 horns.[/quote]
A lot of amateur bands like to carry big sections so they can cover the parts even when people are absent. Since we're talking about volunteers, you have to deal with the fact that the band isn't always people's top priority, not to mention the fact that many amateur bands have a lot of older members who are more prone to health issues. Even then, you can have "perfect storm" situations where you have to scramble. We had one just a couple weeks ago. Last minute gig, mid-day on a Wednesday. Our principal trombone had to fill in as conductor, one person couldn't make it for personal reasons, I was on a cruise, and my first-call sub couldn't get off from work (he would have been sight-reading the music, anyway).
A lot of amateur bands like to carry big sections so they can cover the parts even when people are absent. Since we're talking about volunteers, you have to deal with the fact that the band isn't always people's top priority, not to mention the fact that many amateur bands have a lot of older members who are more prone to health issues. Even then, you can have "perfect storm" situations where you have to scramble. We had one just a couple weeks ago. Last minute gig, mid-day on a Wednesday. Our principal trombone had to fill in as conductor, one person couldn't make it for personal reasons, I was on a cruise, and my first-call sub couldn't get off from work (he would have been sight-reading the music, anyway).
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
I just joined the "sub list" for a one-to-a-part wind ensemble, and was immediately asked to play on the one piece that needs four trombones.
I play in a by-audition group that straddles one- and two-to-a-part. It has a robust sub list, both for individual rehearsals and for concert cycles.
I play euphonium in another group because the trombone section (one or two to a part) was deemed "full" by the conductor.
And I've played in "warm body" groups with one clarinet trying to balance against five trombones.
The sub list is key to keeping a wind ensemble going, but it has to have a good enough reputation that people want to be on the list. And has to be in an area with a high population density, or at least a lot of musicians.
I play in a by-audition group that straddles one- and two-to-a-part. It has a robust sub list, both for individual rehearsals and for concert cycles.
I play euphonium in another group because the trombone section (one or two to a part) was deemed "full" by the conductor.
And I've played in "warm body" groups with one clarinet trying to balance against five trombones.
The sub list is key to keeping a wind ensemble going, but it has to have a good enough reputation that people want to be on the list. And has to be in an area with a high population density, or at least a lot of musicians.
- StephenK
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
I don't think it is standard, though you can get a good feel for what is expected from the parts list on the cover of fairly standard pieces (giving the number of parts printed) . It does vary quite a bit though.
The community band I play with I feel is a bit too large now. However we do restrict entry by available space. (There's generally a high proportion of applicants on flute, clarinet and sax). We don't set a hard standard, but players have a trial period which demonstrates they have the required ability, among other things. The problem with too many on a part means extra copies needed, which is quite a pain also. ( Currently we have 6 troms, one more than I would prefer, but one is temporary visiting for a period). The number players also allows for absences for good reason, eg holidays, work travel, sickness.
What isn't very standard are percussion parts, and harp, synth etc.
The community band I play with I feel is a bit too large now. However we do restrict entry by available space. (There's generally a high proportion of applicants on flute, clarinet and sax). We don't set a hard standard, but players have a trial period which demonstrates they have the required ability, among other things. The problem with too many on a part means extra copies needed, which is quite a pain also. ( Currently we have 6 troms, one more than I would prefer, but one is temporary visiting for a period). The number players also allows for absences for good reason, eg holidays, work travel, sickness.
What isn't very standard are percussion parts, and harp, synth etc.
- Chronos91
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Jul 10, 2022
The community groups in the two places (where I went to college and where I live now) that I've played in tend to just want to maximize participation. And we do have a pretty wide skill variation in each place. That said, I think that the skill floor for groups like this is usually found through self selection. If someone finds that they're struggling, they'll either not come back, or they'll just only play songs/passages that they are comfortable with. You can also utilize sectionals, and have stronger players in the section target trouble areas with the weaker players (if they're willing).
There are limits, but ideally playing at the edge of their ability with stronger players also lifts the weaker players up to some extent, though this would happen over the course of seasons rather than within concert cycles.
If the group gets big enough, I think there's also some tendency for the sections to average into more reasonable ratios. Like, the low brass is definitely heavy in the group that's in the town I went to school in, but there aren't sections that are nearly empty. And in the community orchestra where I live now, winds are definitely over represented, but I've bounced around the brass to fill in where we have actual holes.
There are limits, but ideally playing at the edge of their ability with stronger players also lifts the weaker players up to some extent, though this would happen over the course of seasons rather than within concert cycles.
If the group gets big enough, I think there's also some tendency for the sections to average into more reasonable ratios. Like, the low brass is definitely heavy in the group that's in the town I went to school in, but there aren't sections that are nearly empty. And in the community orchestra where I live now, winds are definitely over represented, but I've bounced around the brass to fill in where we have actual holes.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
As section leader in a Community Band I assigned parts as follows:
My best 3 players were designated Principal 1st, Principal 2nd, and Principal 3rd. After that the players could distribute themselves as they felt. If we had a player with a big ego and poor chops he would get demoted to 2nd, but usually I had too many 3rd players because everybody was embarrassed about their playing. Sometimes I had to bump a few of them up. Once I had one good player on each part I didn't worry too much from there.
My best 3 players were designated Principal 1st, Principal 2nd, and Principal 3rd. After that the players could distribute themselves as they felt. If we had a player with a big ego and poor chops he would get demoted to 2nd, but usually I had too many 3rd players because everybody was embarrassed about their playing. Sometimes I had to bump a few of them up. Once I had one good player on each part I didn't worry too much from there.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Does anyone know what was a fully-instrumented British military band would have been for the purposes of Gustav Holst's suites "for Military Band"?
I would think that would have some standard numbers attached to it but my google-ing and wikipedia-ing has produced little of certainty.
I would think that would have some standard numbers attached to it but my google-ing and wikipedia-ing has produced little of certainty.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="robcat2075"]Does anyone know what was a fully-instrumented British military band would have been for the purposes of Gustav Holst's suites "for Military Band"?[/quote]
Wikipedia gives you all you want to know (and more):
<LINK_TEXT text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sui ... itary_Band">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Suite_in_E-flat_for_Military_Band</LINK_TEXT>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Su ... itary_Band">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Suite_in_F_for_Military_Band</LINK_TEXT>
<B>First Suite (Eb) - 1948 edition:</B>
<U>Woodwinds</U>
Flute/Piccolo in C
Flute/Piccolo in D♭
2 Oboes
2 Clarinets in E♭
Solo clarinet in B♭
3 Clarinets in B♭
Alto clarinet in E♭
Bass clarinet in B♭
Contrabass clarinet in B♭
2 Bassoons
Alto saxophone in E♭
Tenor saxophone in B♭
Baritone saxophone in E♭
Bass saxophone in B♭
<U>Brass</U>
2 Cornets in B♭ (1st called "solo", both parts divided a2)
2 Trumpets in B♭
2 Flugelhorns
4 Horns in E♭ (though the parts are in F)
2 Tenor trombones
Bass trombone
Baritone in B♭ (Euphonium part in treble clef)
Euphonium
"Basses" (Tuba and double basses)
<U>Percussion</U>
Timpani
Snare drum
Bass drum
Cymbals
Triangle
Tambourine
<B>Second Suite (F) - 1948 edition: </B>
<U>Woodwinds</U>
Flutes and piccolo in D♭ (one stave)
Oboe
Clarinet in E♭
Solo clarinet in B♭
3 clarinets in B♭ (first doubling the solo part in tutti passages)
Alto clarinet in E♭
Bass clarinet in B♭
2 bassoons
Alto saxophone in E♭
Tenor saxophone in B♭
Soprano saxophone in B♭
Baritone saxophone in E♭
Bass saxophone/Contrabass clarinet in B♭ (divided a2)
<U>Brass</U>
2 cornets in B♭ (first part divided a2 (a due; in unison))
2 trumpets in B♭
4 horns in E♭ and F
2 tenor trombones
Bass trombone
Euphonium
Tubas (divided a2)
<U>Percussion</U>
Snare drum
Bass drum
Cymbals
Triangle
Tambourine
Anvil
Wikipedia gives you all you want to know (and more):
<LINK_TEXT text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sui ... itary_Band">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Suite_in_E-flat_for_Military_Band</LINK_TEXT>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Su ... itary_Band">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Suite_in_F_for_Military_Band</LINK_TEXT>
<B>First Suite (Eb) - 1948 edition:</B>
<U>Woodwinds</U>
Flute/Piccolo in C
Flute/Piccolo in D♭
2 Oboes
2 Clarinets in E♭
Solo clarinet in B♭
3 Clarinets in B♭
Alto clarinet in E♭
Bass clarinet in B♭
Contrabass clarinet in B♭
2 Bassoons
Alto saxophone in E♭
Tenor saxophone in B♭
Baritone saxophone in E♭
Bass saxophone in B♭
<U>Brass</U>
2 Cornets in B♭ (1st called "solo", both parts divided a2)
2 Trumpets in B♭
2 Flugelhorns
4 Horns in E♭ (though the parts are in F)
2 Tenor trombones
Bass trombone
Baritone in B♭ (Euphonium part in treble clef)
Euphonium
"Basses" (Tuba and double basses)
<U>Percussion</U>
Timpani
Snare drum
Bass drum
Cymbals
Triangle
Tambourine
<B>Second Suite (F) - 1948 edition: </B>
<U>Woodwinds</U>
Flutes and piccolo in D♭ (one stave)
Oboe
Clarinet in E♭
Solo clarinet in B♭
3 clarinets in B♭ (first doubling the solo part in tutti passages)
Alto clarinet in E♭
Bass clarinet in B♭
2 bassoons
Alto saxophone in E♭
Tenor saxophone in B♭
Soprano saxophone in B♭
Baritone saxophone in E♭
Bass saxophone/Contrabass clarinet in B♭ (divided a2)
<U>Brass</U>
2 cornets in B♭ (first part divided a2 (a due; in unison))
2 trumpets in B♭
4 horns in E♭ and F
2 tenor trombones
Bass trombone
Euphonium
Tubas (divided a2)
<U>Percussion</U>
Snare drum
Bass drum
Cymbals
Triangle
Tambourine
Anvil
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
One of the bands I played in had limited instrumentation and they had as follows:
Piccolo (played both C and Db parts, sub flute)
2 Flutes
2 1st Clarinets
2 2nd Clarinets
2 3d Clarinets
Bass Clarinet
(no oboe or bassoon)
2 Alto Saxophones (1st and 2nd)
Tenor Saxophone
Baritone Saxophone
2 1st Cornets (Trumpets)
2 2nd Cornets (Trumpets)
2 3rd Cornets (Trumpets)
2 Eb Altos or F Horns
2 1st Trombones
1 2nd Trombone
1 3rd (Bass) Trombone
Baritone Treble Clef
Baritone/Euphonium Bass Clef
Tuba
Snare Drum
Bass Drum
Piccolo (played both C and Db parts, sub flute)
2 Flutes
2 1st Clarinets
2 2nd Clarinets
2 3d Clarinets
Bass Clarinet
(no oboe or bassoon)
2 Alto Saxophones (1st and 2nd)
Tenor Saxophone
Baritone Saxophone
2 1st Cornets (Trumpets)
2 2nd Cornets (Trumpets)
2 3rd Cornets (Trumpets)
2 Eb Altos or F Horns
2 1st Trombones
1 2nd Trombone
1 3rd (Bass) Trombone
Baritone Treble Clef
Baritone/Euphonium Bass Clef
Tuba
Snare Drum
Bass Drum
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="286201" time="1758741816" user_id="3697">
Does anyone know what was a fully-instrumented British military band would have been for the purposes of Gustav Holst's suites "for Military Band"?[/quote]
Wikipedia gives you all you want to know (and more):
</QUOTE>
Nope.
Those are the parts they print. That doesn't specify how many players THE BAND would have playing them.
The entire ensemble would normally have just 4 Bb clarinets? I am doubtful.
The ensemble normally have both C and Db flutes? I am doubtful.
What was a regulation military band of Gustav Holst's time composed of?
Does anyone know what was a fully-instrumented British military band would have been for the purposes of Gustav Holst's suites "for Military Band"?[/quote]
Wikipedia gives you all you want to know (and more):
</QUOTE>
Nope.
Those are the parts they print. That doesn't specify how many players THE BAND would have playing them.
The entire ensemble would normally have just 4 Bb clarinets? I am doubtful.
The ensemble normally have both C and Db flutes? I am doubtful.
What was a regulation military band of Gustav Holst's time composed of?
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
[quote="Posaunus"]<B>Second Suite (F) - 1948 edition: </B>
<U>Woodwinds</U>
Flutes and piccolo in D♭ (one stave)
Oboe
Clarinet in E♭
Solo clarinet in B♭
3 clarinets in B♭ (first doubling the solo part in tutti passages)
Alto clarinet in E♭
Bass clarinet in B♭
2 bassoons
Alto saxophone in E♭
Tenor saxophone in B♭
Soprano saxophone in B♭
Baritone saxophone in E♭
Bass saxophone/Contrabass clarinet in B♭ (divided a2)
<U>Brass</U>
2 cornets in B♭ (first part divided a2 (a due; in unison))
2 trumpets in B♭
4 horns in E♭ and F
2 tenor trombones
Bass trombone
Euphonium
Tubas (divided a2)
<U>Percussion</U>
Snare drum
Bass drum
Cymbals
Triangle
Tambourine
Anvil[/quote]
Here is my favorite recording of the same, very balanced, it is close, but not identical to the above:
<ATTACHMENT filename="Holst #2.png" index="0">[attachment=0]Holst #2.png</ATTACHMENT>
<U>Woodwinds</U>
Flutes and piccolo in D♭ (one stave)
Oboe
Clarinet in E♭
Solo clarinet in B♭
3 clarinets in B♭ (first doubling the solo part in tutti passages)
Alto clarinet in E♭
Bass clarinet in B♭
2 bassoons
Alto saxophone in E♭
Tenor saxophone in B♭
Soprano saxophone in B♭
Baritone saxophone in E♭
Bass saxophone/Contrabass clarinet in B♭ (divided a2)
<U>Brass</U>
2 cornets in B♭ (first part divided a2 (a due; in unison))
2 trumpets in B♭
4 horns in E♭ and F
2 tenor trombones
Bass trombone
Euphonium
Tubas (divided a2)
<U>Percussion</U>
Snare drum
Bass drum
Cymbals
Triangle
Tambourine
Anvil[/quote]
Here is my favorite recording of the same, very balanced, it is close, but not identical to the above:
<ATTACHMENT filename="Holst #2.png" index="0">