Starting on a high Note
- Atoastedtrmb
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Mar 07, 2025
Hi, hope y'all are doing spectacular. I've gotten to a point in my playing where I can lip slur (via major arpeggios, thank you so much William Lang) up to Bb 5 on most days. The note is most definitely there and on most days it sounds decently clear. However, I've noticed that starting on the note(s) and then going down is much more difficult, usually resulting in what I've come to call an "air screech" :frown: . I'm unsure why this happens as I can "hear" the pitch, but no real note comes out. Any advice here would be helpful. thank yall! If anyone would like a video of this I can figure out how to do that.
- Richard3rd
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Dec 12, 2020
What happens when you tongue up to that note?
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
Almost any lip slur done in one direction is worth doing in the opposite direction.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
1. When you start the high note make sure your embouchure is the same as when you slur up to it.
2. Practice the arpeggios starting at the top as much or more than starting from the bottom. Your whole life you’ve done them from the bottom, up. Now you have some catching up to do starting at the top and going down.
Seriously, a buttload if practice over several months, making sure you’re not changing your embouchure starting on the high note, is the way to do it. Also make sure you give a lot of support to the notes on the way down.
2. Practice the arpeggios starting at the top as much or more than starting from the bottom. Your whole life you’ve done them from the bottom, up. Now you have some catching up to do starting at the top and going down.
Seriously, a buttload if practice over several months, making sure you’re not changing your embouchure starting on the high note, is the way to do it. Also make sure you give a lot of support to the notes on the way down.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Assuming you're going up and down the arpeggios, starting and ending on the same note...
You can start and end on any OTHER note too. And from notes in the middle, you can go up first or go down first.
So on a 2 octave 3-note arpeggio, there are 7 possible starting notes, and 5 more if you do them in both directions. Lots more if you do 3 octave arpeggios.
That's the best way I have come up with to work on that particular problem.
You can start and end on any OTHER note too. And from notes in the middle, you can go up first or go down first.
So on a 2 octave 3-note arpeggio, there are 7 possible starting notes, and 5 more if you do them in both directions. Lots more if you do 3 octave arpeggios.
That's the best way I have come up with to work on that particular problem.
- Jimprindle
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Apr 16, 2018
Ditto what Doug said.
It is so comfortable to start from the bottom of an arpeggio and work your way to the top. I have found it much more functional to start on any note in the arpeggio and go either direction to correct a bad habit of always starting from the lowest note going to the top.
If you notice, there is a lot of music where the musician starts from the top note and plays to the bottom.
It is so comfortable to start from the bottom of an arpeggio and work your way to the top. I have found it much more functional to start on any note in the arpeggio and go either direction to correct a bad habit of always starting from the lowest note going to the top.
If you notice, there is a lot of music where the musician starts from the top note and plays to the bottom.
- Atoastedtrmb
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Mar 07, 2025
Thank you for the advice. I’m fine with taking a the time to get there as it took me about a year of constant tinkering and exploration online for me to take my range from Db 5 to to Bb 5 (and on good days B5 :D ). On the subject of embochure, how would you suggest handling pressure? I’ve found my own ways to unlearn it but it appears that those have only gotten me so far. So just to query yall, what are your favorite methods, tricks, etc to unlearn applying more pressure than needed (aka achieving minimal pressure)?
Edit: I hadn’t seen Doug Elliot’s response before I wrote this. Thank you for the advice I will certainly try that!
Edit: I hadn’t seen Doug Elliot’s response before I wrote this. Thank you for the advice I will certainly try that!
- Richard3rd
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Dec 12, 2020
Since no one has mentioned it, you are weak in terms of embouchure strength. That's why you can slur there but can't tongue there. Tonguing causes increased air to the lips and the lack of strength causes them to blow apart. Pressure is the reaction to try and hold them together. Double tonguing up and down the range will help. I don't know of books used by trombonists, but for trumpet doing the stuff at the back of Arbans or St. Jacome really helps because it is exactly that, double and triple tongue up and down the range of playing.
- sterb225
- Posts: 126
- Joined: May 09, 2018
What Richard said about weakness hits home - consider that your larger outer embouchure muscles are overwhelming the center that needs to stay soft enough to buzz. When playing in the upper reaches I am constantly reminding myself to DO LESS.
Equally counterintuitive (and I'm bracing for the Greek chorus to call me on my heresy) is considering that if you are already playing with low pressure, an increased cup diameter with a flatter rim may be helpful with upper register availability. This was the last piece of the puzzle for me ten years ago and I've only recently found a smaller diameter rim option that doesn't destroy my access to the higher notes.
Equally counterintuitive (and I'm bracing for the Greek chorus to call me on my heresy) is considering that if you are already playing with low pressure, an increased cup diameter with a flatter rim may be helpful with upper register availability. This was the last piece of the puzzle for me ten years ago and I've only recently found a smaller diameter rim option that doesn't destroy my access to the higher notes.
- Atoastedtrmb
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Mar 07, 2025
I'll look into that. On this subject, do yall have any adivce for holding the cheeks/area above the upper lip in ? when I ascend, usually going from the 5th of the arpeggio (ex , E5 -> A5) either my cheeks or the area around the top half of the mouthpiece invariably pushes out no matter how hard I hold my corners. Any adice? All I've hear regarding this is that I may be blowing too much air or blowing it too fast but I am not educated enough on the topic to validate those guesses.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Contact me if you're interested in a lesson.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Atoastedtrmb"]On this subject, do yall have any adivce for holding the cheeks/area above the upper lip in ? when I ascend, usually going from the 5th of the arpeggio (ex , E5 -> A5) either my cheeks or the area around the top half of the mouthpiece invariably pushes out no matter how hard I hold my corners.[/quote]
Well. With this new information, I suggest you take Doug up on his offer and take a diagnostic lesson from him, for starters. Sounds like there are multiple issues going on here.
Well. With this new information, I suggest you take Doug up on his offer and take a diagnostic lesson from him, for starters. Sounds like there are multiple issues going on here.
- Richard3rd
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Dec 12, 2020
[quote="Atoastedtrmb"]I'll look into that. On this subject, do yall have any adivce for holding the cheeks/area above the upper lip in ? when I ascend, usually going from the 5th of the arpeggio (ex , E5 -> A5) either my cheeks or the area around the top half of the mouthpiece invariably pushes out no matter how hard I hold my corners. Any adice? All I've hear regarding this is that I may be blowing too much air or blowing it too fast but I am not educated enough on the topic to validate those guesses.[/quote]
There are no instantaneous remedies for lack of strength.
There are no instantaneous remedies for lack of strength.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Richard3rd"]There are no instantaneous remedies for lack of strength.[/quote]
Sometimes there are, if there's an easier way to do it and lack of strength isn't the actual issue.
Sometimes there are, if there's an easier way to do it and lack of strength isn't the actual issue.
- Jimprindle
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Apr 16, 2018
Sometimes it’s not a good idea to overthink it in mechanical terms. My experience as a professional musician over 60 years is to hear the note in your head, pick up the horn, play the note in your head. Just be a musician.