Soft Palate,Back of Tongue in neutral
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
Is it anyone else's or is it at all common to play with a soft palate and the rear area of the tongue not actively/consciously involved in playing. That is my "vowel" action is mostly controlled in the front of my mouth and I have stopped thinking about an open sensation at the back of my mouth. The sound is much more in the room that way and vibrato is much more immediate and natural sounding.
It's just one more thing that I don't do anymore or one more area that is no longer feeling actively tensed.
It's just one more thing that I don't do anymore or one more area that is no longer feeling actively tensed.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
Here is a very brief example of the effect. It’s subtle but I think it’s audible. Do you prefer the first or second version? Which is with which level of palate engagement?
<YOUTUBE id="norkoI90Bc4">https://youtu.be/norkoI90Bc4</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="norkoI90Bc4">https://youtu.be/norkoI90Bc4</YOUTUBE>
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
How are you defining "palate engagement?"
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
With palate engagement I am just talking about on purpose holding the soft palate in a certain position. I was in the habit of keeping things open by lifting the soft palate. I’m experimenting with on purpose doing nothing with it. The range control that used to be with the ah => ee vowels where I would pronounce those sounds speaking had already migrated to quite near the front so it was just a next step to try. I should say type, not level.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
Wiki:
Until i read the wiki article I had not thought about the soft palate having muscles. I've never consciously tried to control them while playing. The wiki article suggest they are mostly for reflexively closing off the nasal passage during swallowing and sneezing.
You:
Hmmm. I am uncertain of what you are describing or doing.
AFAIK my ah => ee maneuvers are all something the tongue has been doing. i have no awareness of manipulating the soft palate for this.
When I look at the familiar video of Sarah Willis playing horn in an MRI machine, her soft palate seems to be closing off the entrance to her nasal cavity (so all the air goes out her mouth) but nothing else as she plays through the range of the horn.
In your video, in the first example i hear something like a repeating clipping sound when you engage your vibrato.
The soft palate (also known as the velum, palatal velum, or muscular palate) is, in mammals, the soft tissue constituting the back of the roof of the mouth.
Until i read the wiki article I had not thought about the soft palate having muscles. I've never consciously tried to control them while playing. The wiki article suggest they are mostly for reflexively closing off the nasal passage during swallowing and sneezing.
You:
With palate engagement I am just talking about on purpose holding the soft palate in a certain position....
Hmmm. I am uncertain of what you are describing or doing.
The range control that used to be with the ah => ee vowels where I would pronounce those sounds speaking had already migrated to quite near the front
AFAIK my ah => ee maneuvers are all something the tongue has been doing. i have no awareness of manipulating the soft palate for this.
When I look at the familiar video of Sarah Willis playing horn in an MRI machine, her soft palate seems to be closing off the entrance to her nasal cavity (so all the air goes out her mouth) but nothing else as she plays through the range of the horn.
In your video, in the first example i hear something like a repeating clipping sound when you engage your vibrato.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
My anatomy and labelling could be off. Whatever the wording is (someone who has a good grasp of this can come in and lay out the terminology we should be using) the idea is that one can try to play while actively opening at the back or one can not try (or do lots of things but my experimenting is with that sensation). There is a slight change in sound created in the video. Which one do you like?
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
[quote="VJOFan"]There is a slight change in sound created in the video. Which one do you like?[/quote]
In your video, I initially thought the ticking sound in the first version was a digital artifact like what happens when a sound is resampled to a slightly different rate or the speed has been slightly changed.
But it's only happening during your vibrato and it only happens in the first version, so i presume it's you and not YouTube.
For that reason i prefer the second take which may also sound less buzzy than the first take, but they are very similar timbre-wise.
In your video, I initially thought the ticking sound in the first version was a digital artifact like what happens when a sound is resampled to a slightly different rate or the speed has been slightly changed.
But it's only happening during your vibrato and it only happens in the first version, so i presume it's you and not YouTube.
For that reason i prefer the second take which may also sound less buzzy than the first take, but they are very similar timbre-wise.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The real question is wbich you YOU prefer?
You know you can adjust your sound quality, and that's one way to do it. Whether you think of it as "engaging your soft palate" or "opening your throat" or just "changing the sound for the situation."
You can do the exact same thing with you voice and the difference is probably even more apparent.
You know you can adjust your sound quality, and that's one way to do it. Whether you think of it as "engaging your soft palate" or "opening your throat" or just "changing the sound for the situation."
You can do the exact same thing with you voice and the difference is probably even more apparent.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
I am finding that what I did while playing the second clip makes things work more efficiently. It’s a lot less work to keep the sound moving and to get vibrancy and projection. With a second try I could have made the legato the same between the takes. The examples above aren’t as clear as I’d like but show a bit of what I’ve heard on longer voice memo recordings.
Still it’s would be nice to know what it sounds like to others.
Still it’s would be nice to know what it sounds like to others.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
I liked the clarity on the articulations in the second video myself at first listen.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Whatever you're doing that is making for noticeable differences, it's probably not changing what your soft palate is doing. The soft palate is responsible for closing off the passage of air to the nose, so unless you're allowing air to leak out your nose while playing the soft palate is up and closing off those passages.
My wife (speech therapist) tells me there is a cheap piece of equipment that one can use to tell what the soft palate is doing for when there is a disorder of some sort. You thread it up your nose, so if you want to really see what's going on while playing trombone...
I thought the second example sounded a touch better, for what it's worth.
My wife (speech therapist) tells me there is a cheap piece of equipment that one can use to tell what the soft palate is doing for when there is a disorder of some sort. You thread it up your nose, so if you want to really see what's going on while playing trombone...
I thought the second example sounded a touch better, for what it's worth.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
So now I know more about anatomy anyway. I probably should have just used the term back of the mouth and throat area.
The difference I’m working with is first feeling active work that keeps that back area enlarged in the hopes of creating a rounder sound. Doing that seems to act more as a muffler and tightens the tongue making it a little harder to articulate.
Second The alternative is to let the tension go so it feels like there is no action back there. The roof of the mouth gets soft back there so I misidentified what I was fooling around with. The recording has some artifacts caused by using an old iPad??? but it captures the sound difference enough.
The other thing that was interesting, and not intentional at all, was seeing how the horn angle changed. I think my lower jaw is a little more forward when I’m not trying to open up at the back.
The difference I’m working with is first feeling active work that keeps that back area enlarged in the hopes of creating a rounder sound. Doing that seems to act more as a muffler and tightens the tongue making it a little harder to articulate.
Second The alternative is to let the tension go so it feels like there is no action back there. The roof of the mouth gets soft back there so I misidentified what I was fooling around with. The recording has some artifacts caused by using an old iPad??? but it captures the sound difference enough.
The other thing that was interesting, and not intentional at all, was seeing how the horn angle changed. I think my lower jaw is a little more forward when I’m not trying to open up at the back.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I like the second example better. It sounded more present, even and relaxed.
I’m wondering whether the “consciously activated soft palate” is part of the idea “keep the throat open to allow the air to pass through”? Some teachers tell people to “keep the throat open like you have a hot potato in your mouth.” That’s only for the inhalation. FWIW, I like Doug Elliott’s instruction: keep the mouthpiece on the lips, breathe in through the corners. I think of a relaxed breath in, even when it’s very quick. When needed, I also try to feel the coolness as the air passes over the tongue.
Once the air is in the lungs and everything snaps into playing position (soft palate, back of tongue, front of tongue, lips, jaw), then the throat will naturally do what’s need to support the air getting pushed through and the shape of the tongue. The back of the tongue will raise or lower depending on the dynamic and the register. Getting the back of the throat or the soft palate involved (aside from circular breathing) adds tension.
I’m wondering whether the “consciously activated soft palate” is part of the idea “keep the throat open to allow the air to pass through”? Some teachers tell people to “keep the throat open like you have a hot potato in your mouth.” That’s only for the inhalation. FWIW, I like Doug Elliott’s instruction: keep the mouthpiece on the lips, breathe in through the corners. I think of a relaxed breath in, even when it’s very quick. When needed, I also try to feel the coolness as the air passes over the tongue.
Once the air is in the lungs and everything snaps into playing position (soft palate, back of tongue, front of tongue, lips, jaw), then the throat will naturally do what’s need to support the air getting pushed through and the shape of the tongue. The back of the tongue will raise or lower depending on the dynamic and the register. Getting the back of the throat or the soft palate involved (aside from circular breathing) adds tension.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Personally, I prefer whatever method allows me to remain the most relaxed in the chest, shoulders, throat and tongue.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]I like Doug Elliott’s instruction: keep the mouthpiece on the lips, breathe in through the corners. I think of a relaxed breath in, even when it’s very quick. When needed, I also try to feel the coolness as the air passes over the tongue.[/quote]
This is quite helpful to me with a second thing I am (re)working on which is initial attack. When the embouchure center is mostly set while breathing like you describe above my batting percentage for a clean first release goes way up. Thank you!
This is quite helpful to me with a second thing I am (re)working on which is initial attack. When the embouchure center is mostly set while breathing like you describe above my batting percentage for a clean first release goes way up. Thank you!
- JoshE
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Oct 17, 2018
I recently (yesterday) discovered that I unconsciously slightly constrict my soft pallet, keeping air volume consistent, when playing passages with mutes to make them speak better. Maybe I'm compensating for the added back pressure with extra air velocity. Anybody else notice this in their playing?