Harmon mute -- stem out?
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
I've been seeing more (concert band) music marked for Harmon mute (never any +o indications). Sometimes the group decides "stem out"; sometimes nothing is discussed. A quick internet search says the "Harmon" marking is almost always intended to be stem-out, and stem-in is marked Wawa. Is that right? The references I see are all trumpet-related; maybe trombone is different?
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I usually think stem in unless there's an instruction for stem out. Most trombone harmons don't play that well with the stem out - trumpet mutes seem to be better at that. My 3D-printed harmon is better than most at either stem in or out.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
If the trumpets are also in Harmon, just match whatever they're doing. It may not be correct for the music, but you're not going to be able to tell them that. Otherwise, I'd just say go with whatever seems stylistically correct for the piece.
Is it "modern" music? If so, it's most likely stem out. Stem in is usually reserved for when you're going for a 1920's-ish sound or a special effect.
It kinda drives me nuts when we're playing a tune that's supposed to have a sort of 1920's sound and the trumpets insist on going all Miles Davis (i.e., stem out) with it.
Is it "modern" music? If so, it's most likely stem out. Stem in is usually reserved for when you're going for a 1920's-ish sound or a special effect.
It kinda drives me nuts when we're playing a tune that's supposed to have a sort of 1920's sound and the trumpets insist on going all Miles Davis (i.e., stem out) with it.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The best stem-out "harmon" is the Ullven version, which comes with short stem pipes without the cup attached. Once of the pipes is only 2 inches long. These go in the end hole (various depths or all the way in) and give you the resistance and buzz you would expect, that trumpets seem to get without any issues.
So you can do it on a normal Harmon mute, but you may need to make your own "cup less stem" or build the hole up with felt or rubber padding. The key with the Ullven mute is that it is pretty well in tune with whatever combo you use. Making your own version with felt or rubber padding will just make an already out of tune mute even more wonky.
So you can do it on a normal Harmon mute, but you may need to make your own "cup less stem" or build the hole up with felt or rubber padding. The key with the Ullven mute is that it is pretty well in tune with whatever combo you use. Making your own version with felt or rubber padding will just make an already out of tune mute even more wonky.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]If the trumpets are also in Harmon, just match whatever they're doing. It may not be correct for the music, but you're not going to be able to tell them that. Otherwise, I'd just say go with whatever seems stylistically correct for the piece.
Is it "modern" music? If so, it's most likely stem out. Stem in is usually reserved for when you're going for a 1920's-ish sound or a special effect.
It kinda drives me nuts when we're playing a tune that's supposed to have a sort of 1920's sound and the trumpets insist on going all Miles Davis (i.e., stem out) with it.[/quote]
This post made me realize that there would be different answers depending on the genre you're working in. In a big band or some other commercial setting, I would would definitely agree with the quoted post above. I sometimes encounter Harmon in Classical contemporary music, and if they don't specify, I default to what sounds better and will do the best job of playing all the notes (low range is bad on a lot of Harmons, and worse without stem). You have to listen to figure out if they are looking for the classic stem out "Miles Davis" sound, or something more tinny and distant. Of course, wa-wa's are a sure sign of stem-in.
Jim Scott
Is it "modern" music? If so, it's most likely stem out. Stem in is usually reserved for when you're going for a 1920's-ish sound or a special effect.
It kinda drives me nuts when we're playing a tune that's supposed to have a sort of 1920's sound and the trumpets insist on going all Miles Davis (i.e., stem out) with it.[/quote]
This post made me realize that there would be different answers depending on the genre you're working in. In a big band or some other commercial setting, I would would definitely agree with the quoted post above. I sometimes encounter Harmon in Classical contemporary music, and if they don't specify, I default to what sounds better and will do the best job of playing all the notes (low range is bad on a lot of Harmons, and worse without stem). You have to listen to figure out if they are looking for the classic stem out "Miles Davis" sound, or something more tinny and distant. Of course, wa-wa's are a sure sign of stem-in.
Jim Scott
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="JohnL"]If the trumpets are also in Harmon, just match whatever they're doing.[/quote]
I just came back from a concert where the three trumpets used stem-in, stem-out, and a Harmon-brand "Triple Play" cup mute. I guess it didn't matter.
I just came back from a concert where the three trumpets used stem-in, stem-out, and a Harmon-brand "Triple Play" cup mute. I guess it didn't matter.
- Dennis
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
The trombone harmons I've tried (H&B, Harmon, Jo-Ral, Wick, and Trapani--I own Harmon, Jo-Ral, and Trapani) don't work well without the stem, especially in the low register. Alan Kaplan suggests (and there is a You-Tube demo up) partially blocking the hole with a left finger. That makes things work a lot better, even on a bass. Of course, the triggers are unavailable, but any composer who writes bass trombone in harmon in the trigger or pedal range needs a trombone lesson or two.
I think Harrison's point about the Ullven is a good one, and it's likely that a short tube with an extractor string would improve the behavior of these mutes in the low register. I don't know about Jo-Ral, but the stem on my Harmon-branded mute is just a length of half-inch conduit. I don't think anyone asked, "How long and what diameter does this tube need to be for a trombone?" I'll have to give that a try the next time I have to get the harmons out.
I think Harrison's point about the Ullven is a good one, and it's likely that a short tube with an extractor string would improve the behavior of these mutes in the low register. I don't know about Jo-Ral, but the stem on my Harmon-branded mute is just a length of half-inch conduit. I don't think anyone asked, "How long and what diameter does this tube need to be for a trombone?" I'll have to give that a try the next time I have to get the harmons out.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]A quick internet search says the "Harmon" marking is almost always intended to be stem-out, and stem-in is marked Wawa. Is that right?[/quote]
Stem out is only the unmarked default in a jazz/big band setting, and only for trumpets at that. Trombone stem out sounds nothing like trumpet stem out, and on the rare occasion I've had to use a trombone harmon in a big band, it was with the stem.
For "legit" settings I would always assume stem in unless it's explicitly marked stem out. Every time I've had to use a harmon in an orchestra, concert band, or trombone choir it was always with the stem unless marked otherwise.
Stem out is only the unmarked default in a jazz/big band setting, and only for trumpets at that. Trombone stem out sounds nothing like trumpet stem out, and on the rare occasion I've had to use a trombone harmon in a big band, it was with the stem.
For "legit" settings I would always assume stem in unless it's explicitly marked stem out. Every time I've had to use a harmon in an orchestra, concert band, or trombone choir it was always with the stem unless marked otherwise.
- Dennis
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Most of the harmon calls I've seen for trombone are in brass bands and show pits. Brass band composers tend to be careful about markings, specifying stem in, stem out, stem extended. Show orchestrators are less careful.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????[/quote]
I got that in a musical theater gig last year. On bass trombone.
I got that in a musical theater gig last year. On bass trombone.
- tedthetrumpet
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Feb 22, 2022
As a refugee from playing trumpet, it was a real surprise to me that stem-out harmon is such a poor sound on the trombone. Call me Miles, but at one point I was using stem-out harmon on the trumpet virtually all the time.
As an arranger… ha! Before I knew that, I had on more than one occasion called for stem-out harmon on trombone, on the assumption that it would be the same kind of sound as the trumpet.
Also… it's my impression that the trombonists around here either don't own harmons or don't bother to bring them unless asked!
As an arranger… ha! Before I knew that, I had on more than one occasion called for stem-out harmon on trombone, on the assumption that it would be the same kind of sound as the trumpet.
Also… it's my impression that the trombonists around here either don't own harmons or don't bother to bring them unless asked!
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????[/quote]
It can be cool!! It just has to be written carefully.
It can be cool!! It just has to be written carefully.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="tedthetrumpet"]As an arranger… ha! Before I knew that, I had on more than one occasion called for stem-out harmon on trombone, on the assumption that it would be the same kind of sound as the trumpet.[/quote]
I'm imagining a future where trombonists and mute makers have found a solution, but the "historically informed" cohort insists on playing your arrangements with the terrible harmons.
I'm imagining a future where trombonists and mute makers have found a solution, but the "historically informed" cohort insists on playing your arrangements with the terrible harmons.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Harmon mutes aren't terrible, with or without the stems. But arrangers have to understand the balance.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
[quote="tbdana"]Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????[/quote]
Especially in a mic'd situation for a jazz solo it can be pretty cool. I've done that quite a few times. This is a small project I did during Covid:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1w2yee9s ... k38xz&dl=0">https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1w2yee9sogk90u1kyiw9b/Groove_Major.mp3?rlkey=9u990z2cvhh7jgh3eb1isbbw0&st=vwyk38xz&dl=0</LINK_TEXT>
Especially in a mic'd situation for a jazz solo it can be pretty cool. I've done that quite a few times. This is a small project I did during Covid:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1w2yee9s ... k38xz&dl=0">https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1w2yee9sogk90u1kyiw9b/Groove_Major.mp3?rlkey=9u990z2cvhh7jgh3eb1isbbw0&st=vwyk38xz&dl=0</LINK_TEXT>
- Dennis
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="291440" time="1767048432" user_id="16498">
Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????[/quote]
It can be cool!! It just has to be written carefully.
</QUOTE>
Plain Language Summary: No notes written below :tenorclef: :line2: and the part is marked 2 dynamic levels above any accompaniment.
Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????[/quote]
It can be cool!! It just has to be written carefully.
</QUOTE>
Plain Language Summary: No notes written below :tenorclef: :line2: and the part is marked 2 dynamic levels above any accompaniment.
- mwpfoot
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Stem in on trombone, always, unless the arranger has additionally written in "Trust me! I know what I'm doing!"
:idea:
:idea:
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Dennis"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="291452" time="1767063297" user_id="136">
It can be cool!! It just has to be written carefully.[/quote]
Plain Language Summary: No notes written below :tenorclef: :line2: and the part is marked 2 dynamic levels above any accompaniment.
</QUOTE>
This is only true with nominally designed harmon mutes. Which, admittedly, are what 99% of the harmons on the market are. I really need to record a demo with my Ullven, stem out. I feel like people are just not aware of those mutes as much as they should be!
It can be cool!! It just has to be written carefully.[/quote]
Plain Language Summary: No notes written below :tenorclef: :line2: and the part is marked 2 dynamic levels above any accompaniment.
</QUOTE>
This is only true with nominally designed harmon mutes. Which, admittedly, are what 99% of the harmons on the market are. I really need to record a demo with my Ullven, stem out. I feel like people are just not aware of those mutes as much as they should be!