This has probably been asked before here, so if I'm being redundant I apologize.

At a quick glance these seem like the most similarly spec'd instruments imaginable, has anybody who's played both tell me if they're really different enough to be worth noticing?

At a glance it looks to me like Alessi gave his Edwards to the folks at the Shires factory and basically just said "this, but with your logo".

[quote="nateaff"]At a glance it looks to me like Alessi gave his Edwards to the folks at the Shires factory and basically just said "this, but with your logo".[/quote]

I haven't had the opportunity to do a close comparison, but the presence or absence of the Edwards Harmonic Bridge is a very significant difference.

My casual observation is that the Shires tends towards easier brilliance and shine in the sound; the Edwards tends to be thicker and darker.

The T-396A can be pretty much whatever you want it to be with those harmonic pillars. Alessi seems to have been going for a brighter sound on that horn than his sound concept from the 90's. This more recent recordings and when I've heard him live a few times on the Shires, he sounded surprisingly bright and brilliant.

I don't think the horns really account for that difference as much as an individual changing their own personal sound concept over time. But they might be a factor. The old T-350 setup he used to play, which I'd played an identical setup to for a year or so, was a much wider/darker sound than the 396A I play now, though I use the pillars to counteract that a bit. I can't speak for the Shires other than hearing it live and it is BRIGHT.

I'm also not Alessi -- he may have a completely different idea about it all. It would be very interesting to hear about what he thinks about his sound concept over time.

Great feedback. The first thing that went into my mind is that maybe he is losing higher frequencies in his hearing. As we age, high frequencies tend to diminish, so to keep the same sound image in our head, we might unconsciously push for more brilliance in tone. Not really the place to discuss but had to say it.

I found the Edwards Alessi model to have more stability and security in slotting and dynamics. In kind, the sound produced more density in “the mids” (EQ range) & maintained that well into the loudest dynamics. However, the Edwards also somewhat “homogenized” the timbre in a way that can make colorful expression more challenging, or limited. For example, I performed the Tomasi in recital on my Edwards and found it difficult to achieve the appropriate tonal color variations. [Before someone says “duh, play a small bore”, my current .547 horn does achieve the desired colors.]

I find these tendencies mostly to be true for Edwards setups relative to “equivalently spec’d” current Shires horns.

The Shires Alessi Variant, with its specific valve section, IMO, plays with more stability and density of sound than the other Shires rotor variants. Even so, the Shires has a lighter sound and quicker response, with brilliance that is achieved easily at most dynamic levels. But, I personally found it difficult to get my Shires tenor setups to achieve the right balance of stability and tonal response (especially maintaining core/depth at some dynamics).

My current M&W setup, I believe, offers all the best attributes of the Edwards and Shires, plus better intonation, workmanship, and musical intuitiveness - the stability of the Edwards with the tonal colors & responsiveness of the Shires. I also get better control over my sound, flexibility, dynamics, and articulations. My main setup has an unsoldered 2-piece bell, like both the Edwards and Shires Alessi horns, which I’ve found to be one of my favorite aspects of all these horns.

Recently, I played a friend’s T396-A (a few years after selling mine). I found it very heavy with a “hard” response that offered very little subtlety or control of tonal color. The specific one I owned, I believe, was probably a better example with a more colorful sound and response, but this recent experience really highlighted the qualities of my M&Ws.

Anyway, each of those Alessi models have their strengths.

As others have suggested, I remember Joe mentioning that aging was a factor in him looking for equipment that more easily responds with clarity and brilliance. I hadn’t considered the hearing loss aspect though! There were undoubtedly other factors in his equipment changes as well…

It is amazing how he has maintained such a consistent excellence of technique for so many years, especially given the way he has steadily pushed the technical envelope forward in solo commissions, etc. What Joe does on his artist models doesn’t necessarily equate to what others can do with them, but I do believe the basic qualities I laid out here about each variant are fair generalizations.

And I also wholeheartedly recommend that players in the market for an Alessi model trombone try Matthew’s 322-2y (the “Alessi Flavor” bell) and silver MK42 pipe. My orchestra colleague, who previously played an Edwards Alessi horn, actually just received his (with a cross-braised/seamed flare 2Y bell) and is VERY happy as well!