False tones - experience and a comparation of use on old and modern bass trombones
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
I’m starting this thread and look forward to seeing how it develops. Please share your experiences!
To begin, I’ll share some of what I’ve learned, since I have quite a lot of experience with false tones and use them regularly in performance—mostly on my old single-valve bass trombones.
One question I keep returning to is: why are false tones so difficult to play on bass trombones with axial-flow valves?
My experience has led me to the conclusion that false tones simply don’t work as well on modern bass trombones equipped with axial valves. The reason, I believe, is that axial valves are very open and provide too little resistance for false tones to speak reliably for our needs. Older instruments, by contrast, usually have standard rotors, which offer more resistance that help make the false tones speak easier. Add to that they also fit the sound concept of the old horns.
Note: I’m the kind of player who developed my embouchure on instruments with traditional rotors, so I’ve grown accustomed to that resistance and probably compensate for it with less resistance in the lips. A modern player who develops on a more open horn will naturally find a different balance in their embouchure.
This may also explain why many younger bass trombonists today find older instruments too small or too “stuffy.” The small rotors often get the blame—and understandably so—but I think the real issue is technique. I believe we need different embouchures for “stuffy” valves than for more open ones, and false tones are one technique that simply doesn’t suit very open valves. Now I understand why I’ve never bought a bass trombone with axials: although openness can be an advantage for certain players and embouchures, for me it works in the opposite direction. I find axial-equipped instruments too air-consuming because of their low resistance. That, I believe, is also why false tones are so difficult—and therefore not particularly useful—on horns with axials.
There are also other reasons not to use false tones on bass trombones with axial valves:
1. Most axial-valve bass trombones have two valves, so you rarely need false tones.
2. Modern axial instruments generally produce a more mellow sound compared to older models, and false tones are much harder to shape to fit that mellow sound concept. They are far easier to blend into a “clearer” sound concept. In my experience, a false tone can only be one of two things: either bad or clear. I cannot produce a false tone that is as mellow or colorable as the same regular note on an axial instrument. Even when played softly, it retains a certain clarity that stands out in a context of otherwise warm, mellow tones. This means that if, despite their difficulty, you choose to use false tones on an axial horn, they are very hard to match with the rest of the low register.
It’s worth noting that axial valves didn’t exist when players like George Roberts were active. The reason false tones were used on older instruments must be that—on the equipment of that time—they could be made to match regular tones well enough to be musically indistinguishable. There is plenty of recorded evidence of this. I also know it from personal experience: I studied with a professional who could play them so seamlessly that you couldn’t tell the difference. He played a single-valve instrument and had a clear, even sound throughout the entire register, false tones included.
Today, the ideal bass trombone sound has changed significantly. Over the last 30 years, the sound has become bigger and broader—closer to a tuba-like concept than before. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but for a false tone to be usable on such an instrument, it must match that sound—and in my experience, it simply can’t. False tones can only be clear; if they aren’t, they’re not usable at all. This has been my consistent impression after studying them for 45 years.
I’m very interested in hearing from others who use false tones regularly, and especially from those who have experience producing them on axial-valve instruments. I’m also curious about historical instruments, which I have no firsthand experience with.
Please share your experiences with using false tones on bass trombones in any context or performance setting!
/Tom
To begin, I’ll share some of what I’ve learned, since I have quite a lot of experience with false tones and use them regularly in performance—mostly on my old single-valve bass trombones.
One question I keep returning to is: why are false tones so difficult to play on bass trombones with axial-flow valves?
My experience has led me to the conclusion that false tones simply don’t work as well on modern bass trombones equipped with axial valves. The reason, I believe, is that axial valves are very open and provide too little resistance for false tones to speak reliably for our needs. Older instruments, by contrast, usually have standard rotors, which offer more resistance that help make the false tones speak easier. Add to that they also fit the sound concept of the old horns.
Note: I’m the kind of player who developed my embouchure on instruments with traditional rotors, so I’ve grown accustomed to that resistance and probably compensate for it with less resistance in the lips. A modern player who develops on a more open horn will naturally find a different balance in their embouchure.
This may also explain why many younger bass trombonists today find older instruments too small or too “stuffy.” The small rotors often get the blame—and understandably so—but I think the real issue is technique. I believe we need different embouchures for “stuffy” valves than for more open ones, and false tones are one technique that simply doesn’t suit very open valves. Now I understand why I’ve never bought a bass trombone with axials: although openness can be an advantage for certain players and embouchures, for me it works in the opposite direction. I find axial-equipped instruments too air-consuming because of their low resistance. That, I believe, is also why false tones are so difficult—and therefore not particularly useful—on horns with axials.
There are also other reasons not to use false tones on bass trombones with axial valves:
1. Most axial-valve bass trombones have two valves, so you rarely need false tones.
2. Modern axial instruments generally produce a more mellow sound compared to older models, and false tones are much harder to shape to fit that mellow sound concept. They are far easier to blend into a “clearer” sound concept. In my experience, a false tone can only be one of two things: either bad or clear. I cannot produce a false tone that is as mellow or colorable as the same regular note on an axial instrument. Even when played softly, it retains a certain clarity that stands out in a context of otherwise warm, mellow tones. This means that if, despite their difficulty, you choose to use false tones on an axial horn, they are very hard to match with the rest of the low register.
It’s worth noting that axial valves didn’t exist when players like George Roberts were active. The reason false tones were used on older instruments must be that—on the equipment of that time—they could be made to match regular tones well enough to be musically indistinguishable. There is plenty of recorded evidence of this. I also know it from personal experience: I studied with a professional who could play them so seamlessly that you couldn’t tell the difference. He played a single-valve instrument and had a clear, even sound throughout the entire register, false tones included.
Today, the ideal bass trombone sound has changed significantly. Over the last 30 years, the sound has become bigger and broader—closer to a tuba-like concept than before. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but for a false tone to be usable on such an instrument, it must match that sound—and in my experience, it simply can’t. False tones can only be clear; if they aren’t, they’re not usable at all. This has been my consistent impression after studying them for 45 years.
I’m very interested in hearing from others who use false tones regularly, and especially from those who have experience producing them on axial-valve instruments. I’m also curious about historical instruments, which I have no firsthand experience with.
Please share your experiences with using false tones on bass trombones in any context or performance setting!
/Tom
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Tom,
I agree that a certain amount of resistance is needed for the false tones. I have noticed that false tones definitely require more focus (mental and engagement of chops) for a clear sound on my bass trombones. My current daily driver is a Greenhoe TIS independent bass. False tones require some concentration, but are playable. False tones are a bit trickier on my double axial bass. But then again, I never need to use them in performance. I only need those notes while demonstrating to students.
The same is true of my tenor trombones. My axial .547 bore horns have decent false tones, but they are not as clear and effortless as my ROTOR large bores.
I have discussed this topic with other players and there is a point of disagreement. I am fluent with false tones down through my .525 bore horns. However, I find that false tones become more finicky on the smaller horns (.508, .500 and smaller). Some of my trombone friends believe that false tones are very easy down through the small bore horns.
Different players favor different amounts of resistance to excel. Therefore, players will experience ease of playing false tones according to which type of horn they prefer.
I agree that a certain amount of resistance is needed for the false tones. I have noticed that false tones definitely require more focus (mental and engagement of chops) for a clear sound on my bass trombones. My current daily driver is a Greenhoe TIS independent bass. False tones require some concentration, but are playable. False tones are a bit trickier on my double axial bass. But then again, I never need to use them in performance. I only need those notes while demonstrating to students.
The same is true of my tenor trombones. My axial .547 bore horns have decent false tones, but they are not as clear and effortless as my ROTOR large bores.
I have discussed this topic with other players and there is a point of disagreement. I am fluent with false tones down through my .525 bore horns. However, I find that false tones become more finicky on the smaller horns (.508, .500 and smaller). Some of my trombone friends believe that false tones are very easy down through the small bore horns.
Different players favor different amounts of resistance to excel. Therefore, players will experience ease of playing false tones according to which type of horn they prefer.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Speaking of specifically valve false tones (especially low C and B), I always found that single valve basses do it easier than independent double valve basses. I tried it back to back with my single and indy 72Hs when I owned both. Not sure how that relates to the resistance discussion, but it seems to me that false tones are better with fewer disruptions in the tubing path (which includes a 2nd rotor, even if it's not being used).
As for open false tones, I've found once again that the best horns for it are the ones with the least amount of valves. My 3B has much better false tones than my Y-Fort, for example. The false tones on my 3B are excellent, and I have used them successfully, and loudly, on gigs many times. I also learned that nothing makes a room full of tuba players laugh harder than pasting low Cs on a straight 3B.
As for open false tones, I've found once again that the best horns for it are the ones with the least amount of valves. My 3B has much better false tones than my Y-Fort, for example. The false tones on my 3B are excellent, and I have used them successfully, and loudly, on gigs many times. I also learned that nothing makes a room full of tuba players laugh harder than pasting low Cs on a straight 3B.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
We should probably get some threads going on open false tones and valve false tones. I would like know some of the teaching techniques that are used. I have found that most players (of a certain accomplishment level) are aware of false tones, but very few are able to incorporate them into practical use on such simple things as scales.
Since my studio at the college has many preparatory students, I find myself coaching many middle and high school students through the process of learning and understanding false tones. The biggest obstacle seems to be that they cannot “hear” the pitches in order to accurately place them accurately (they almost always play them very sharp). I find myself demonstrating the pitches a lot on my horn and/or playing them on the piano.
For valve false tones, my observation is that a limited number of players know about them and fewer players find practical applications. There is also no universal agreement on the positions (which makes sense to me because the resistance is different on every horn). I think these valve false tones are very important because they allow a tenor trombone player to play continuous scales from pedal register into the regular register.
As a performer, I find that the open false tones are the gateway to playing those same notes with a valve with higher quality. A person who can play a clear low D in #5 without the valve will usually have a great sound on that same pitch with the valve. For the valve false tones, I think those allow the instrument to be limitless in the low register on my large bore tenor. I like to play tuba literature and see how nimble I can navigate from pedals, into the valve false tones and into the regular valves pitches. The only problem is that I must remember to reprogram my brain (for slide positions) if I practice this way for multiple weeks and then switch back to my independent bass.
Since my studio at the college has many preparatory students, I find myself coaching many middle and high school students through the process of learning and understanding false tones. The biggest obstacle seems to be that they cannot “hear” the pitches in order to accurately place them accurately (they almost always play them very sharp). I find myself demonstrating the pitches a lot on my horn and/or playing them on the piano.
For valve false tones, my observation is that a limited number of players know about them and fewer players find practical applications. There is also no universal agreement on the positions (which makes sense to me because the resistance is different on every horn). I think these valve false tones are very important because they allow a tenor trombone player to play continuous scales from pedal register into the regular register.
As a performer, I find that the open false tones are the gateway to playing those same notes with a valve with higher quality. A person who can play a clear low D in #5 without the valve will usually have a great sound on that same pitch with the valve. For the valve false tones, I think those allow the instrument to be limitless in the low register on my large bore tenor. I like to play tuba literature and see how nimble I can navigate from pedals, into the valve false tones and into the regular valves pitches. The only problem is that I must remember to reprogram my brain (for slide positions) if I practice this way for multiple weeks and then switch back to my independent bass.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]Speaking of specifically valve false tones (especially low C and B), I always found that single valve basses do it easier than independent double valve basses. I tried it back to back with my single and indy 72Hs when I owned both. Not sure how that relates to the resistance discussion, but it seems to me that false tones are better with fewer disruptions in the tubing path (which includes a 2nd rotor, even if it's not being used).
As for open false tones, I've found once again that the best horns for it are the ones with the least amount of valves. My 3B has much better false tones than my Y-Fort, for example. The false tones on my 3B are excellent, and I have used them successfully, and loudly, on gigs many times. I also learned that nothing makes a room full of tuba players laugh harder than pasting low Cs on a straight 3B.[/quote]
I’ve had the same experience when it comes to small-bore trombones. Valves seem to hinder things to some extent, especially the notes in the first few positions, which are harder to play on a trombone with a quart valve. The notes Gb (1st position), F (2nd position), and E (3rd position) are harder than Eb, D, and C. On my TIS Gerdt .500 tenor with a G-valve, however, Gb, F, and E are no problem at all, so it seems that a more conical instrument in the bell section of a TIS instrument makes those notes more stable.
In my opinion, a small trombone without valves also has the best false tones. When discussing the false tones you can play with the first valve—i.e., Db (1st position), C (2nd position), and B (3rd position), etc.—I think they respond well, but even there you can feel a difference: they are more stable in the longer positions than in the shorter ones.
/Tom
As for open false tones, I've found once again that the best horns for it are the ones with the least amount of valves. My 3B has much better false tones than my Y-Fort, for example. The false tones on my 3B are excellent, and I have used them successfully, and loudly, on gigs many times. I also learned that nothing makes a room full of tuba players laugh harder than pasting low Cs on a straight 3B.[/quote]
I’ve had the same experience when it comes to small-bore trombones. Valves seem to hinder things to some extent, especially the notes in the first few positions, which are harder to play on a trombone with a quart valve. The notes Gb (1st position), F (2nd position), and E (3rd position) are harder than Eb, D, and C. On my TIS Gerdt .500 tenor with a G-valve, however, Gb, F, and E are no problem at all, so it seems that a more conical instrument in the bell section of a TIS instrument makes those notes more stable.
In my opinion, a small trombone without valves also has the best false tones. When discussing the false tones you can play with the first valve—i.e., Db (1st position), C (2nd position), and B (3rd position), etc.—I think they respond well, but even there you can feel a difference: they are more stable in the longer positions than in the shorter ones.
/Tom
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]We should probably get some threads going on open false tones and valve false tones. I would like know some of the teaching techniques that are used. I have found that most players (of a certain accomplishment level) are aware of false tones, but very few are able to incorporate them into practical use on such simple things as scales.[/quote]
I usually pick out phrases from the big band repertoire that I come across where I can choose to use false tones. Then I transpose those phrases up and down and try to get as even a sound as possible throughout, so that you can’t hear which notes are false tones.
I also have the idea that false tones help improve the sound on the valve. If you can play an open and beautiful D in fifth position without the valve, you can more easily get good sound and control when playing the same note with the valve.
/Tom
I usually pick out phrases from the big band repertoire that I come across where I can choose to use false tones. Then I transpose those phrases up and down and try to get as even a sound as possible throughout, so that you can’t hear which notes are false tones.
As a performer, I find that the open false tones are the gateway to playing those same notes with a valve with higher quality. A person who can play a clear low D in #5 without the valve will usually have a great sound on that same pitch with the valve. For the valve false tones, I think those allow the instrument to be limitless in the low register on my large bore tenor. I like to play tuba literature and see how nimble I can navigate from pedals, into the valve false tones and into the regular valves pitches. The only problem is that I must remember to reprogram my brain (for slide positions) if I practice this way for multiple weeks and then switch back to my independent bass.
I also have the idea that false tones help improve the sound on the valve. If you can play an open and beautiful D in fifth position without the valve, you can more easily get good sound and control when playing the same note with the valve.
/Tom
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
Another thing I’ve realized regarding false tones is that there is only a very small area on the slide where the note responds with a truly good tone that is useful. There are only a few millimeters above and below that position that leads to the optimal resonance and there’s not really any margin to adjust a note with just your lips in that position while maintaining the good tone quality.
What I sense on the instrument while playing normal notes is that the instrument guides the lips to some extent, so even with a slightly off setup for a note, the lips are directed toward the most optimal vibrating position. You just need to learn what sound to listen for, and then it’s just a matter of recognizing the feeling, following it, and being attentive to in what direction the instrument leads the sound.
When you reach a certain level it becomes obvious you play as if you are a part of your instrument. You have then ceased to struggle with the technique and just let go. At that point when it comes to sound "how to lead" and "how to follow" has become the same thing.
The same applies to false tones, except it’s much more subtle. Of course you need first a fully developed emboushure to recognize these things. If that ability is settled you are ready to go to discover yourself. Unfortunately you will not sense what I describe next with a weak embouchure, but if you've got the chops then try to produce the best, clear and useful false tones on your horn!
If you’re a few millimeters off, you won’t feel it, and you get no guidance at all, resulting in no good sound. However, if you are very close to the optimal point and have a developed emboushure, you can experience the same thing as with other notes: the feeling clicks, and the trombone guides you to the open sound. The note locks in, becoming clear and steady, and it becomes possible to articulate and nuance. Most importantly, you can play loudly with a strong, open tone. Now you can go practice your false tones.
/Tom
What I sense on the instrument while playing normal notes is that the instrument guides the lips to some extent, so even with a slightly off setup for a note, the lips are directed toward the most optimal vibrating position. You just need to learn what sound to listen for, and then it’s just a matter of recognizing the feeling, following it, and being attentive to in what direction the instrument leads the sound.
When you reach a certain level it becomes obvious you play as if you are a part of your instrument. You have then ceased to struggle with the technique and just let go. At that point when it comes to sound "how to lead" and "how to follow" has become the same thing.
The same applies to false tones, except it’s much more subtle. Of course you need first a fully developed emboushure to recognize these things. If that ability is settled you are ready to go to discover yourself. Unfortunately you will not sense what I describe next with a weak embouchure, but if you've got the chops then try to produce the best, clear and useful false tones on your horn!
If you’re a few millimeters off, you won’t feel it, and you get no guidance at all, resulting in no good sound. However, if you are very close to the optimal point and have a developed emboushure, you can experience the same thing as with other notes: the feeling clicks, and the trombone guides you to the open sound. The note locks in, becoming clear and steady, and it becomes possible to articulate and nuance. Most importantly, you can play loudly with a strong, open tone. Now you can go practice your false tones.
/Tom
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="imsevimse"]If you’re a few millimeters off, you won’t feel it, and you get no guidance at all, resulting in no good sound. However, if you are very close to the optimal point and have a developed emboushure, you can experience the same thing as with other notes: the feeling clicks, and the trombone guides you to the open sound. The note locks in, becoming clear and steady, and it becomes possible to articulate and nuance. Most importantly, you can play loudly with a strong, open tone. Now you can go practice your false tones.[/quote]
Yep! False tones have a "partial" that locks like normal partials if you're doing it exactly right.
Many trombonists understand this fake partial (major 3rd below the 2nd partial), and use the right positions to access it. Trumpets and cornets have the same fake partial, but I've never seen a trumpeter actually use the right fingerings to make it lock, and their false tones thus never sound locked and open like they could. You can play all the out of range low notes in orchestral trumpet parts on a stock C trumpet, and have them sound just as good as the notes around them, using the correct false tones.
Yep! False tones have a "partial" that locks like normal partials if you're doing it exactly right.
Many trombonists understand this fake partial (major 3rd below the 2nd partial), and use the right positions to access it. Trumpets and cornets have the same fake partial, but I've never seen a trumpeter actually use the right fingerings to make it lock, and their false tones thus never sound locked and open like they could. You can play all the out of range low notes in orchestral trumpet parts on a stock C trumpet, and have them sound just as good as the notes around them, using the correct false tones.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
One of our former 2nd trumpet players was really good at false tones - I remember hearing him play a great sounding low concert "D" that was written in an overture (Mozart?).
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I was exposed to this stuff when I had lessons in high school. Even then it was mostly just a trick that old guys with straight horns used to show why they didn't need any valves. I don't want to say it's obsolete, that would be to say that was ever something you really needed to do. I practiced it a little, but never to the exclusion of stuff that was more pressing. It's an interesting tool, but not something you should spend more time on than say double/triple tonguing. If you run out of things to practice, it's a fun thing to do. But it's like spinning a basket ball on your finger for an NBA player - not really necessary, and kind of questionable value, shows you have some extra time on your hands.
- Olofson
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Apr 15, 2023
[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="290202" time="1765032036" user_id="3173">
If you’re a few millimeters off, you won’t feel it, and you get no guidance at all, resulting in no good sound. However, if you are very close to the optimal point and have a developed emboushure, you can experience the same thing as with other notes: the feeling clicks, and the trombone guides you to the open sound. The note locks in, becoming clear and steady, and it becomes possible to articulate and nuance. Most importantly, you can play loudly with a strong, open tone. Now you can go practice your false tones.[/quote]
Yep! False tones have a "partial" that locks like normal partials if you're doing it exactly right.
Many trombonists understand this fake partial (major 3rd below the 2nd partial), and use the right positions to access it. Trumpets and cornets have the same fake partial, but I've never seen a trumpeter actually use the right fingerings to make it lock, and their false tones thus never sound locked and open like they could. You can play all the out of range low notes in orchestral trumpet parts on a stock C trumpet, and have them sound just as good as the notes around them, using the correct false tones.
</QUOTE>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://qpress.ca/product/pedal-tones-f ... PfkZd9Qvyg">https://qpress.ca/product/pedal-tones-for-trumpet?srsltid=AfmBOoqnrJd3WIj7LFveR338EkE_RHyMzvQ3iLBTf4dugvPfkZd9Qvyg</LINK_TEXT>
There are some trumpeters who practise pedaltones the same way we do it. Not many on youtube though.
If you’re a few millimeters off, you won’t feel it, and you get no guidance at all, resulting in no good sound. However, if you are very close to the optimal point and have a developed emboushure, you can experience the same thing as with other notes: the feeling clicks, and the trombone guides you to the open sound. The note locks in, becoming clear and steady, and it becomes possible to articulate and nuance. Most importantly, you can play loudly with a strong, open tone. Now you can go practice your false tones.[/quote]
Yep! False tones have a "partial" that locks like normal partials if you're doing it exactly right.
Many trombonists understand this fake partial (major 3rd below the 2nd partial), and use the right positions to access it. Trumpets and cornets have the same fake partial, but I've never seen a trumpeter actually use the right fingerings to make it lock, and their false tones thus never sound locked and open like they could. You can play all the out of range low notes in orchestral trumpet parts on a stock C trumpet, and have them sound just as good as the notes around them, using the correct false tones.
</QUOTE>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://qpress.ca/product/pedal-tones-f ... PfkZd9Qvyg">https://qpress.ca/product/pedal-tones-for-trumpet?srsltid=AfmBOoqnrJd3WIj7LFveR338EkE_RHyMzvQ3iLBTf4dugvPfkZd9Qvyg</LINK_TEXT>
There are some trumpeters who practise pedaltones the same way we do it. Not many on youtube though.