Show & Tell: 1932 Conn 70H with factory 2nd valve!
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Just rescued this amazing trombone and I had to share. This is a 1932 Conn 70H bass trombone with 2 valves!
The 2nd valve is a manual change rotor from F to E, and as far as I can tell is factory. The horn is in excellent shape, with just a bit of wear here and there. The inners have no chrome loss. The receiver is some form of medium shank...my medium shank Kosikup G bass mouthpiece wobbles around in it a bit, and you can stick a large shank mouthpiece in sticking out pretty far.
So, how does it play?
Well, it plays like a Conn of course. Anyone who's spent time on 70-series bass trombones will be immediately familiar. But it's also...more than that. The sound has an additional layer of color and beauty that other 70-series instruments I've played (including my beloved indy 72H) are missing. It is a very special sound, and the whole horn vibrates in your hand when you play it. But there are also no compromises that I can see, apart from the obvious lack of a 2nd trigger and/or any valve setting lower than E. Even with the completely wrong shank mouthpiece, the horn feels effortless in every register.
And now for the really crazy part of this story: I found this horn in a Guitar Center!! I still can't believe it.
The 2nd valve is a manual change rotor from F to E, and as far as I can tell is factory. The horn is in excellent shape, with just a bit of wear here and there. The inners have no chrome loss. The receiver is some form of medium shank...my medium shank Kosikup G bass mouthpiece wobbles around in it a bit, and you can stick a large shank mouthpiece in sticking out pretty far.
So, how does it play?
Well, it plays like a Conn of course. Anyone who's spent time on 70-series bass trombones will be immediately familiar. But it's also...more than that. The sound has an additional layer of color and beauty that other 70-series instruments I've played (including my beloved indy 72H) are missing. It is a very special sound, and the whole horn vibrates in your hand when you play it. But there are also no compromises that I can see, apart from the obvious lack of a 2nd trigger and/or any valve setting lower than E. Even with the completely wrong shank mouthpiece, the horn feels effortless in every register.
And now for the really crazy part of this story: I found this horn in a Guitar Center!! I still can't believe it.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Beautiful
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
Wow, hard to believe that it’s closing in on 100 years old, such a pretty horn…
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="blast"]I cannot see the images in the UK. Anything you can do ?[/quote]
I wasn't sure why Imgur wouldn't work in the UK, but I Googled it and apparently it was banned in the UK a couple months ago. That's a tough break.
I wasn't sure why Imgur wouldn't work in the UK, but I Googled it and apparently it was banned in the UK a couple months ago. That's a tough break.
- HawaiiTromboneGuy
- Posts: 1025
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
That sure is a beauty!
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]The inners have no chrome loss. The receiver is some form of medium shank...my medium shank Kosikup G bass mouthpiece wobbles around in it a bit, and you can stick a large shank mouthpiece in sticking out pretty far.[/quote]
You might want to see if a medium shank Connstellation mouthpiece (like Conn used on their 24-I/25-I "euphonium") fits. From what I've seen and heard, "medium shank" takes in quite a bit of territory.
Can you tell if it's the wrong taper or it it's just bottoming out?
Also - any idea as to what the bore is? It looks kinda like it might be dual bore (.547"/.562"?).
[quote="Finetales"]And now for the really crazy part of this story: I found this horn in a Guitar Center!! I still can't believe it.[/quote]
As the song goes: "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans"
You might want to see if a medium shank Connstellation mouthpiece (like Conn used on their 24-I/25-I "euphonium") fits. From what I've seen and heard, "medium shank" takes in quite a bit of territory.
Can you tell if it's the wrong taper or it it's just bottoming out?
Also - any idea as to what the bore is? It looks kinda like it might be dual bore (.547"/.562"?).
[quote="Finetales"]And now for the really crazy part of this story: I found this horn in a Guitar Center!! I still can't believe it.[/quote]
As the song goes: "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans"
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Amazing find!
Don you plan to preserve it as it is, or convert it to a more modern valve set-up?
I'm trying to imagine how it might be possible to get a D valve insert there instead of the manual E valve. Not sure how one would go about having a non-permanent lever... Maybe that attaches to the bow of the D wrap?
Don you plan to preserve it as it is, or convert it to a more modern valve set-up?
I'm trying to imagine how it might be possible to get a D valve insert there instead of the manual E valve. Not sure how one would go about having a non-permanent lever... Maybe that attaches to the bow of the D wrap?
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
Does the second valve have a tiny tuning slide? I’ve always wondered.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]I've stashed them in a google drive: <LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing">https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1A1wTadF8HgAtBCq5-TELUg_tb1JioYYT?usp=sharing</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
Oh, that's smart! No idea how I didn't think of that.
[quote="LeTromboniste"]Don you plan to preserve it as it is, or convert it to a more modern valve set-up?[/quote]
As amazing as the horn is, I'm not sure if I can justify the cost of putting a valve set on it. I'd probably have to sell my 72H to justify that, which could be worth it...but that would be a big risk. And plus, that heavier slide would not be ideal for running around at Disney with!
Still, I have thought about it...but I get the feeling there are some Conn collectors who would much rather I sold it to them in original condition!
[quote="mrdeacon"]Does the second valve have a tiny tuning slide? I’ve always wondered.[/quote]
So the E slide does not have a movable slide, it's just a fixed loop. That makes adding an extension require making an entirely different F tuning slide with inset manual valve, which you could certainly do! But at that point you might as well just put on a normal valve and finger paddle/linkage. That certainly could be done, and someone who loved this horn and played dependents would probably be very happy doing that.
Oh, that's smart! No idea how I didn't think of that.
[quote="LeTromboniste"]Don you plan to preserve it as it is, or convert it to a more modern valve set-up?[/quote]
As amazing as the horn is, I'm not sure if I can justify the cost of putting a valve set on it. I'd probably have to sell my 72H to justify that, which could be worth it...but that would be a big risk. And plus, that heavier slide would not be ideal for running around at Disney with!
Still, I have thought about it...but I get the feeling there are some Conn collectors who would much rather I sold it to them in original condition!
I'm trying to imagine how it might be possible to get a D valve insert there instead of the manual E valve. Not sure how one would go about having a non-permanent lever... Maybe that attaches to the bow of the D wrap?
[quote="mrdeacon"]Does the second valve have a tiny tuning slide? I’ve always wondered.[/quote]
So the E slide does not have a movable slide, it's just a fixed loop. That makes adding an extension require making an entirely different F tuning slide with inset manual valve, which you could certainly do! But at that point you might as well just put on a normal valve and finger paddle/linkage. That certainly could be done, and someone who loved this horn and played dependents would probably be very happy doing that.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="blast"]I cannot see the images in the UK. Anything you can do ?[/quote]
Just emailed them to you as Jpegs.
Just emailed them to you as Jpegs.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
What a great looking and certainly playing instrument!
Also it is interesting, how many variations/"custom models" of the older Conns exist.
Also it is interesting, how many variations/"custom models" of the older Conns exist.
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
When researching double valve bass bones in general for my Duo Gravis history I ran across a picture of a Conn 84H, described as a 70H with change valve.
Loyalist cited production years as 1925-1927.
That picture was from a factory catalog.
Unfortunately, the link (http://www.whc.net/rjones/connslidebone.html) is now dead :(
Great find!
Loved the description of how it plays!!
Dave Adams
Loyalist cited production years as 1925-1927.
That picture was from a factory catalog.
Unfortunately, the link (http://www.whc.net/rjones/connslidebone.html) is now dead :(
Great find!
Loved the description of how it plays!!
Dave Adams
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="boneagain"]Unfortunately, the link (http://www.whc.net/rjones/connslidebone.html) is now dead[/quote]
Here is a page from Conn's 1926 catalog. You can see that some of the other (cheaper?) horns include an e-crook instead of this rotary valve.
[url]https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/215
It looks like the original owner took the "hoard" keyword literally!
Here is a page from Conn's 1926 catalog. You can see that some of the other (cheaper?) horns include an e-crook instead of this rotary valve.
It looks like the original owner took the "hoard" keyword literally!
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Oh, very nice!
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="boneagain" post_id="290710" time="1765920248" user_id="174">
Unfortunately, the link (http://www.whc.net/rjones/connslidebone.html) is now dead[/quote]
Here is a page from Conn's 1926 catalog. You can see that some of the other (cheaper?) horns include an e-crook instead of this rotary valve.
It looks like the original owner took the "hoard" keyword literally!
</QUOTE>
Nice find!
So, looks like Finetales has one of the first double rotor bass (not contrabass) trombones ever!
Has anyone else ever found an earlier model? Germany, maybe?
Keep in mind, this predates the "Bartok Gliss."
So does the Olds ( http://www.rouses.net/trumpet/olds32/olds_30s_6.htm )
But the Conn appears to have been designed before the Olds.
Unfortunately, the link (http://www.whc.net/rjones/connslidebone.html) is now dead[/quote]
Here is a page from Conn's 1926 catalog. You can see that some of the other (cheaper?) horns include an e-crook instead of this rotary valve.
It looks like the original owner took the "hoard" keyword literally!
</QUOTE>
Nice find!
So, looks like Finetales has one of the first double rotor bass (not contrabass) trombones ever!
Has anyone else ever found an earlier model? Germany, maybe?
Keep in mind, this predates the "Bartok Gliss."
So does the Olds ( http://www.rouses.net/trumpet/olds32/olds_30s_6.htm )
But the Conn appears to have been designed before the Olds.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="boneagain"]But the Conn appears to have been designed before the Olds.[/quote]
There's a critical difference between the two. On the Olds, the valve has a full linkage and can be actuated "on the fly". The Conn is a static valve. While it's faster and more convenient than pulling a crook, you've still got to stop playing momentarily to actuate the valve.
There's a critical difference between the two. On the Olds, the valve has a full linkage and can be actuated "on the fly". The Conn is a static valve. While it's faster and more convenient than pulling a crook, you've still got to stop playing momentarily to actuate the valve.
- mikerspencer
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Jul 01, 2022
[quote="blast"]I cannot see the images in the UK. Anything you can do ?[/quote]
It's fixable our end with a VPN. Sadly an increasingly needed tool to surf the fragmented net <EMOJI seq="1f622" tseq="1f622">😢</EMOJI>
It's fixable our end with a VPN. Sadly an increasingly needed tool to surf the fragmented net <EMOJI seq="1f622" tseq="1f622">😢</EMOJI>
- HawaiiTromboneGuy
- Posts: 1025
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="boneagain" post_id="290715" time="1765923337" user_id="174">
But the Conn appears to have been designed before the Olds.[/quote]
There's a critical difference between the two. On the Olds, the valve has a full linkage and can be actuated "on the fly". The Conn is a static valve. While it's faster and more convenient than pulling a crook, you've still got to stop playing momentarily to actuate the valve.
</QUOTE>
I never found a picture of that first Olds model. I think I saw some of follow-ons before 1950 or so.
Do you have any photos of it?
But the Conn appears to have been designed before the Olds.[/quote]
There's a critical difference between the two. On the Olds, the valve has a full linkage and can be actuated "on the fly". The Conn is a static valve. While it's faster and more convenient than pulling a crook, you've still got to stop playing momentarily to actuate the valve.
</QUOTE>
I never found a picture of that first Olds model. I think I saw some of follow-ons before 1950 or so.
Do you have any photos of it?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="HawaiiTromboneGuy"]https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn70H1930image.html
Same style horn pictured on Conn Loyalist.[/quote]
Interesting, in the top trim too. I've never seen another frosted silver 70H.
Same style horn pictured on Conn Loyalist.[/quote]
Interesting, in the top trim too. I've never seen another frosted silver 70H.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="boneagain"]I never found a picture of that first Olds model. I think I saw some of follow-ons before 1950 or so.
Do you have any photos of it?[/quote]
I have pictures on my website of one from around 1941. I've got a serialized bell section that's a little older (circa 1939), but I'm reluctant to put it on my site because I don't have a slide to go with it (thus it's not a "complete instrument").
Note that the text of the catalog page you linked to at Olds Central reads:
The catalog at Olds Central is seems to be misdated. Notice that it's missing pages 4 and 5? I have a scan of what I'm pretty sure is the same catalog that I got from Robb Stewart. Page 5 of that catalog shows the Olds Super trombone with "streamline" braces. Olds filed the patent for those braces on February 17, 1938. We know it's from before 1941 by comparing the trumpet model lineup (Standard, Super, French Model, and Military) with what's shown in a 1941 catalog (Standard, Super, Special, Super Recording).
Do you have any photos of it?[/quote]
I have pictures on my website of one from around 1941. I've got a serialized bell section that's a little older (circa 1939), but I'm reluctant to put it on my site because I don't have a slide to go with it (thus it's not a "complete instrument").
Note that the text of the catalog page you linked to at Olds Central reads:
This is the same instrument as the bass model listed above excepting that it supplied with an additional rotary valve to E, and has a double trigger operating both valves, so that the full chromatic pedal register is instantly available.
The catalog at Olds Central is seems to be misdated. Notice that it's missing pages 4 and 5? I have a scan of what I'm pretty sure is the same catalog that I got from Robb Stewart. Page 5 of that catalog shows the Olds Super trombone with "streamline" braces. Olds filed the patent for those braces on February 17, 1938. We know it's from before 1941 by comparing the trumpet model lineup (Standard, Super, French Model, and Military) with what's shown in a 1941 catalog (Standard, Super, Special, Super Recording).
- StephenK
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="blast" post_id="290659" time="1765837015" user_id="52">
I cannot see the images in the UK. Anything you can do ?[/quote]
I wasn't sure why Imgur wouldn't work in the UK, but I Googled it and apparently it was banned in the UK a couple months ago. That's a tough break.
</QUOTE>
Imgur isn't banned in the UK, it has withdrawn from the UK to avoid complying with child protection laws.
I cannot see the images in the UK. Anything you can do ?[/quote]
I wasn't sure why Imgur wouldn't work in the UK, but I Googled it and apparently it was banned in the UK a couple months ago. That's a tough break.
</QUOTE>
Imgur isn't banned in the UK, it has withdrawn from the UK to avoid complying with child protection laws.
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Thanks!
That fills quite a big empty spot in my understanding of double valve horns :)
[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="boneagain" post_id="290747" time="1765972343" user_id="174">
I never found a picture of that first Olds model. I think I saw some of follow-ons before 1950 or so.
Do you have any photos of it?[/quote]
I have pictures on my website of one from around 1941. I've got a serialized bell section that's a little older (circa 1939), but I'm reluctant to put it on my site because I don't have a slide to go with it (thus it's not a "complete instrument").
Note that the text of the catalog page you linked to at Olds Central reads:
The catalog at Olds Central is seems to be misdated. Notice that it's missing pages 4 and 5? I have a scan of what I'm pretty sure is the same catalog that I got from Robb Stewart. Page 5 of that catalog shows the Olds Super trombone with "streamline" braces. Olds filed the patent for those braces on February 17, 1938. We know it's from before 1941 by comparing the trumpet model lineup (Standard, Super, French Model, and Military) with what's shown in a 1941 catalog (Standard, Super, Special, Super Recording).
</QUOTE>
That fills quite a big empty spot in my understanding of double valve horns :)
[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="boneagain" post_id="290747" time="1765972343" user_id="174">
I never found a picture of that first Olds model. I think I saw some of follow-ons before 1950 or so.
Do you have any photos of it?[/quote]
I have pictures on my website of one from around 1941. I've got a serialized bell section that's a little older (circa 1939), but I'm reluctant to put it on my site because I don't have a slide to go with it (thus it's not a "complete instrument").
Note that the text of the catalog page you linked to at Olds Central reads:
This is the same instrument as the bass model listed above excepting that it supplied with an additional rotary valve to E, and has a double trigger operating both valves, so that the full chromatic pedal register is instantly available.
The catalog at Olds Central is seems to be misdated. Notice that it's missing pages 4 and 5? I have a scan of what I'm pretty sure is the same catalog that I got from Robb Stewart. Page 5 of that catalog shows the Olds Super trombone with "streamline" braces. Olds filed the patent for those braces on February 17, 1938. We know it's from before 1941 by comparing the trumpet model lineup (Standard, Super, French Model, and Military) with what's shown in a 1941 catalog (Standard, Super, Special, Super Recording).
</QUOTE>